I don't think Kaylee is from Harvest by PhoenixRose

BLUE SUN ROOM

I don't think Kaylee is from Harvest

POSTED BY: PHOENIXROSE
UPDATED: Sunday, June 24, 2007 06:39
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VIEWED: 10218
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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:18 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

So many fanfic authors have Kaylee's home planet as Harvest that it's nearly canon by now, but I've just been examining page 12 of the Serenity visual companion, and the planet labeled as Harvest looks deeply green and rich, and nothing at all like the dusty prairie world implied in Kaylee's introduction.
Okay, maybe I'm not being fair. It is a whole world, after all. Bound to be some prairie somewhere, I suppose. But since there are plenty of planets listed that look less lush and green, I would put her on one of those instead. Maybe Bernadette, Aberdeen, Kerry, Whittier, Liann Jiun, Salisbury, Highgate, or Deadwood.
Anyway, just a thought I had.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 7:51 AM

NOSADSEVEN

I don't think Monty's last name is Reynolds.

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Ain't. We. Just.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 7:54 AM

MSG

hmmm yeah I remember it being kind of sun baked and a lot like the dust bowl in America during the Great Depression...maybe it was that kind of thing, a temp drought, but it seems more likely to be something less farm conducive

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Friday, June 15, 2007 7:55 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
I don't think Monty's last name is Reynolds.

No, I imagine it isn't. Who said it was?

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Friday, June 15, 2007 9:20 AM

SCHOONER

Where do we actually see Kaylee's home world in the series? In OOG, I thought we really just see the inside of Serenity during Kaylee's introduction. If you're referring to the very end where Mal sees Senerity for the first time, I didn't think that was necessarily where Kaylee came from. I assumed they sailed with Bester for a spell, until Mal gave him the old heave ho and hired a real mechanic.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 9:24 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
I don't think Monty's last name is Reynolds.

No, I imagine it isn't. Who said it was?

It's just one of those things I've seen pop-up, often in fanfics. IMDb has it listed that way, too. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0579540/

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 9:29 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
Where do we actually see Kaylee's home world in the series? In OOG, I thought we really just see the inside of Serenity during Kaylee's introduction. If you're referring to the very end where Mal sees Senerity for the first time, I didn't think that was necessarily where Kaylee came from. I assumed they sailed with Bester for a spell, until Mal gave him the old heave ho and hired a real mechanic.

Mal referred to her as a 'prairie harpy' when telling Bester to get her off the boat and get it running again. I guess I got it from that.

How very odd that Monty's last name would be thought to be Reynolds. Does it say anywhere in the actual credits? Now I have to check.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 10:08 AM

MAL4PREZ

Funny... I just saw the name "Monty Reynolds" not an hour ago, on this very site. It's in the database of planet descriptions, and says that "Monty Reynolds" was arrested on one of the planets. Sorry, I don't recall which one, but I did think the man's name had to be wrong!

Why did it come up here? Random weird coincidence!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, June 15, 2007 11:05 AM

LEIASKY

Kaylee's home planet isn't known so fic authors use what they want.

I read somewhere (a script maybe?) that Monty's last name was Reynolds.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Friday, June 15, 2007 11:18 AM

MSG

weird....

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Friday, June 15, 2007 11:50 AM

STARRBABY

Perhaps Reynolds became a very common name. I mean, look at all the Smiths, Changs, Jones, Patels, etc. that we have now.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 12:43 PM

STEGASAURUS

I thought at the very beginning of Trash they were talking about Monty and mentioned him as Mal's relation. Or possibly that Monty introduced Mal as relation to Yosaphbridge. Gah! Now I can't remember!

Edit: Well...I read the transcript. No mention whatsoever of relation. I guess I made it up in my head.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 1:38 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
Kaylee's home planet isn't known so fic authors use what they want.

I am aware of that, but all that I have read use the planet Harvest, which is indeed listed among the allied planets in the Serenity Visual Companion, but does not look like a place where anyone could be called a 'prairie harpy'. That's all I'm saying, that there are several planets listed that do look like they'd have, y'know, prairies. Prairies might have their share of plant life, but lush and green they ain't.

And having re-watched Trash and read the script in volume two of the Firefly Official Companion today, Monty's last name is never given in the opening credits, and he's not listed in the end credits, but they aren't related, they're old war buddies.
"You and Monty fought in the war together, right?"
"Mm-hm."
"Yeah, I smelled that. The war buddy bond is tough to crack. I knew if I shot you I'd lose Monty anyway."

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Friday, June 15, 2007 3:01 PM

RIVERGIRL

Harvest seems to be a logical name for a planet of farmers

perhaps it was a food stuffs source planet

maybe the terra forming is failing and the work isnt there much

anyway whatever planet they were on for repairs in that episode is the planet Kaylee is from

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 3:14 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by rivergirl:
Harvest seems to be a logical name for a planet of farmers

Who ever said it was a planet of farmers?

Kaylee was a mechanic. Her daddy said she had natural talent. She worked for her daddy, when he had work. I don't really get 'farmer' from that.

See, this is the very thing. A lot of fanfic writers are drawing things from other fanfic. Not to say there's anything inherently wrong with that, and it's understandable since there's limited canon sources to draw on, but sometimes things pop up that are supported by nothing that's canon, and people pop them into the missing places in the backstory, motives, minds, etc, without even stopping to see if they do fit with the canon. Kaylee coming from a world of farmers called Harvest, or even better being raised on a farm on Harvest isn't just non-canon, it contradicts what canon we have, which was that her father was probably a mechanic. And that where she lived was a prairie. And that the planet labeled 'Harvest' in the Visual Companion, which is canon is very lush and green looking, making it unlikely that it's a world of prairies and mechanic shops without too much work. Same thing happens with quite a few of the characters (I started a thread about one that bugged me with Zoe awhile back) but right now I'm focusing on Kaylee not being from Harvest.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 4:49 PM

STARRBABY

I know what you mean. Many of us have developed the idea that she comes from a huge family with lots of brothers, sisters, Aunts, Uncles. Other than her "folks" have we heard ANYTHING of Kaylee's family?

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:05 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

That's a good point. No, we haven't heard a gorramn thing about Kaylee's family. I think people take her sunny nature and slight backwater accent and associate it with 'big-family farm girl' which is really just a stereotype, isn't it? Mal might have been raised on a ranch, but they can't all have had that kind of life. How boring would that be in terms of backstory?
Besides, honestly, if Kaylee had a lot of brothers, or even one brother, she would have learned to not be so sensitive when a guy said something unintentionally insulting. Come on now.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:15 PM

SIGMANUNKI

1) Farmers are /required/ to know *a lot* of things about mechanical stuff. Or failing that, they would be /required/ to have someone on staff or a shop where they could get things fixed.

So, Kaylee's dad could either be a farmer (giving the work to his daughter) or a mechanic that has mostly seasonal work (also see below).

2) Prairie Harpy. Not sure how much about prairie's you know, but prairie's are where *a lot* of farmers live. I should know, I grew up in Manitoba (the great plains).

And if you think that a great deal of farmers can change the landscape significantly enough to change the view from space, just check out orbital photos of our own planet. For the most part, ya don't really see the cities nor the farms. Just the changes due to the different climates. Especially as you go farther out.

And just because where Serenity landed was a prairie does _not_ mean that the /entire/ planet was one big prairie.

3) Lack of work. There are *tonnes* of reasons why work would be short. If her daddy ran his own shop, he could have a small time struggling business. Or if he was a farmer, there could have been poor weather over the past little while to a number of years. This does happen IRL so there is precedence.

Another reason might be that the farm equipment is communal. So, fixing them would probably be shared as well.

Or a simpler reason could be that he's a drunk. Regardless of how wonderful the conditions on the planet are, he'd be hard pressed to 'make things work.' I got a touch of knowledge about this one as one of my Uncle's is a raging alcoholic and if he didn't drink, he'd probably be making in the 6 figures right now.

i.e. there are *tonnes* of *very* plausible explanations that would make Kaylee coming from Harvest *very* easy to believe.

And in case you think that I'd just one of those people that stretch to make things work, I'm not. In fact, I'm one of those people that find a significant number of inconsistencies between the BDS and the BDM. Please note that I'm tired of discussing these issues and as such won't acknowledge any attempt at discussing such points.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:32 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Not sure how much about prairie's you know

Hello? Colorado native here? I think we're rather known for our prairies. Where the buffalo roam and all that.
And when did I say that the entire planet was prairie? I said repeatedly that it seemed less likely that such a lush looking planet would have prairie. Especially considering that worlds in the 'verse seem to be kind of homogenous in terms of landscape. It's one of the details that doesn't sit right, but there it is. Are you reading what I say or just kind of skimming over it?
Also, saying "I work for him when he got work, which isn't often lately" still does not say to me that it was a farm with a bad growing season. Farmers wouldn't word it that way, in my experience, so it still says to me that he's got a shop. Farmer's kids also wouldn't really say they 'work for' their parents if they live on a farm. It's expected that kids help tend the land if they live on a farm. They would be 'working the farm' but probably not 'working for the parents'. I should know, I'm friends with and related to enough of them.
AND! How do you know that 'Harvest' would be a planet of farmers anyway? It was probably named as soon as terraforming was done and they had no idea how it would turn out in the long run. Shadow certainly doesn't look like a dark or forboding planet to be called 'Shadow' (yeah, it was probably called that for the series because it was destroyed in the wat, but we're not looking at the outside of the 'verse for this, but the inside.)
You say there's a strong possibility that Kaylee is from Harvest. I'm just saying there's a strong possibility that she isn't, and yet fanfic places her there, as far as I've seen without exception, with a huge family. I don't think a different homeworld/backstory/family structure for Kaylee in fanfic would be a bad thing. I get tired of reading the same gorramn story over and over.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:33 PM

STARRBABY

You make some very compelling arguments, and I'm impressed. I also agree with the plausability that Kaylee *may* be from Harvest.

However, I think the point that PR is trying to make is that these are all assumptions. There is no hard evidence of that sort of thing in any cannon. Many people take it as cannon that Kaylee is from Harvest, and that her family is a farming family. They recieve this "cannon" from fanfic. Weather Kaylee is from Harvest or not, we never learned this from Joss' work.

I'm sure PR is simply voicing her annoyance that many flans have mistaken fanfic for Joss' word.

On a similar idea - I have a question. Before the BDM, I read in many fics that Wash and Zoe's last name was Warren. Where the heck did people get this? Wasn't it Hoban Washburne and Zoe Allyene? (or something like that) Where did "Warren" come from?

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:35 PM

STARRBABY

You responded while I was typing my last post. You pretty much defended yourself, so I retract my points . . .useless for us both to be making them.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 5:39 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Yes, thank you Starrbaby, that's the very point I'm trying to make.

Quote:
Originally posted by Starrbaby:
On a similar idea - I have a question. Before the BDM, I read in many fics that Wash and Zoe's last name was Warren. Where the heck did people get this? Wasn't it Hoban Washburne and Zoe Allyene? (or something like that) Where did "Warren" come from?

This one actually did come from Joss. The names had not been set in stone before the show got the axe. We never knew Zoe's maiden name, and Wash's last name was being kicked around as 'Warren'. In a similar vein, Shepherd Book's first name was being kicked around as 'Merria' before it was settled as 'Derrial' in the final script. The 'working names' should no longer be thought of as canon, but they were the only mildly official names that we had before the movie. So that's where those are from.

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Friday, June 15, 2007 8:24 PM

REGINAROADIE

Since I also am from the prairies (hey Sigmanuki, we're neighbors. I'm from Saskatchewan), I buy the "Kaylee from Harvest and has large family" scenario that's almost canon. And speaking from experience, mechanics and agriculture truly do intertwine, so I buy the farming angle.

The way I see it, Harvest is a lot like Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and Shadow is more like Montana, where there is farming, but it's more of the livestock kind than the grain kind. And that the Core world are like Toronto. That's how I imagine it anyways.

I find all this interesting in that with what little we've been given about the Firefly 'verse, the fandom has been able to expand and hypothesize beyond what's been established to create a fully functioning 'verse that's been probably thought out far beyond anything Joss had imagined. And that all these things, like Kaylee's background, the Alliance and the Academy and such have been discussed and used so much that they're now pretty much accepted as canon.

I think it's easier for people to write fanfics for shows like FIREFLY that don't have years of canon to draw from and fully formed characters, as opposed to a show that's either been on the air for ages, or at least have an established world. Like I could never write a BUFFY fanfic or a STAR TREK fic or anything like that, because the world and characters that they've created is so rigid and specific that anything you write for them most likely is so out of character and different tonally from the established series that it would ne next to impossible to replicate. But with FIREFLY, because there isn't too much established, one's imagination can run free and do whatever. So it wouldn't be out of character for River to suddenly be the lead of a rock band, because it's never been established if she's musically inclined, if rock music still exists 500 years later, and if the scenario would have eventually presented itself. Who knows, maybe in the FIREFLY verse, there would be rock concerts like the one described in THE RESTAURANT AND THE END OF THE UNIVERSE, where the music is so loud that the audience has to be two planets over so that the soundwaves don't deafen them. We don't know that, so what's to say that there isn't?

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:07 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Please note that I'm tired of discussing these issues and as such won't acknowledge any attempt at discussing such points.

Jeez. Bitter much? So... how does a discussion of Kaylee's planet of origin become a personal attack? Hey, it's just a show. May I suggest that you mix yourself a martini and find a hot tub or something? I recommend vanilla vodka and creme de cocoa. Always good for an attitude adjustment.

Anyway - I think you're missing PR's point. Sure, Kaylee *could* be from Harvest. No one's saying that's impossible, just that it's not a given. There are other options, and it'd be interesting to read something different about our perky little mechanic.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the general state of fic might improve if more writers questioned their assumptions. It does seem like there's a lot of recycled material going around, especially as to the way Kaylee is presented. Honestly, I'd gotten so sick of reading about her that I could hardly make myself write her when I needed to.

As to Harvest's climate... remember, folks - all planets in the `verse, no matter what their names or how they might appear from space, really look like California.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:42 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

There have been a few comments here about the assumed size of Kaylee's family and I have to say that I never saw her as a girl with a huge family. For one, she's a social and chatty type but we've never once heard her mention any family member but her daddy. She seems like the type who, if she had family, would mention them now and then. I alway imagined it as just being her and her dad. She didn't have much of a family growing up so she builds one where she can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, June 16, 2007 3:00 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'll go so far as to say that the general state of fic might improve if more writers questioned their assumptions.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kayna:
I alway imagined it as just being her and her dad. She didn't have much of a family growing up so she builds one where she can.

I like that idea. She did mention 'folks' though, so she's probably got a mother there, too. Maybe one older sibling, but as you said she seems like the type who would talk about ahving a sister (I already said why I don't think she had a brother...)

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 12:48 PM

LEIASKY

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Besides, honestly, if Kaylee had a lot of brothers, or even one brother, she would have learned to not be so sensitive when a guy said something unintentionally insulting. Come on now.

You know, I really like this train of thought. As much as I write about Kaylee, I've never thought about this.

I've only ever considered that she's so sensitive to Simon's unintentional insults because she's more emotionally interested in him than she has been previously.

If Kaylee had brothers, perhaps she wouldn't appear to be so free with her body - since they would know better than anyone what they want out of a girl - which, in most cases, would just be sex.

I'm taking a break from writing but I had to comment on this because its a little eye-opening thing mentioned in the middle of something else being discussed. And - it might be something that will find its way into fic one of these days. Thanks, PR:)

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, June 18, 2007 5:57 PM

ESHVA

By coincidence, I've just been writing something where I needed a home planet for Kaylee, and I decided to go for Harvest. The attraction of using fanon is that it tends to be easily accepted by readers, which is handy if it's a detail that doesn't matter much in the story context. If the focus of the story is something non-fanon, then keeping background details nice and fanon-standard avoids diverting attention from what you're actually trying to say.

But I agree that fanon does become self-reinforcing, which is a bad thing, especially when it comes to characterisation. Everyone writes the same old fanon versions, and alternative approaches get labelled OOC.

Also by coincidence, I was thinking about Kaylee's family. I don't know about the big extended family, but I do tend to assume she has a couple (or more) of older brothers. I'm very sure she's not an oldest child - my impression is that she's always been the darling baby of the family, and has moved into the same role on Serenity. My feeling is that she does have older brothers - some of her interactions with Jayne and Mal have that feel about them. Probably the main reason I think she has older brothers is because the person I've known in real life who was most like Kaylee was a youngest child with two older brothers.

As to how Kaylee reacts to Simon, I don't thinks there's necessarily any connection to the older brother thing. She copes fine with Jayne teasing her. Basically IMO, with Simon, she just doesn't react well to not getting what she wants.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:45 AM

SCHOONER

Has anyone taken the angle that Kaylee may have lost some family after joining the crew of Serenity? Her actions in "The Message" seem to me to indicate someone who is very lonely or mourning on the inside. I could see something happening whle she was away, which might explain why she is determinedly cheerful, but doesn't talk much about her family.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:38 AM

LEIASKY

I think Kaylee just likes everyone, and her reactions in The Message were just because she felt sorry for what happened to Tracy and mourned him like she would anyone else.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:39 AM

TUJIAOZUO

I just wanted to take the time and thank you guys for putting up this thread. I'm a fairly new Firefly ficcer and this is the only thing that's alerted me to the fact that 90% of the whole Kaylee background is fanon. I like to do a fair amount of research on the characters to try and get them right, but when I hit the other fanfics for some hints, all I see is Kaylee living on Harvest, happy life with lots of siblings. I actually started to think it was fact (even though nothing on the net eluded to it). But you guys alerted me to it, which means my little expostion on her life in one of my new chapters won't the the whole 'Harvest, big family, happy life' song and dance.

So yeah you guys deserve one of these from reverting me from fanon doom

lol.

Ash

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