Common or annoying characterization mistakes by jetflair

For me, it's giggly Kaylee. Can't take it. She may be innocent and cute, but I don't recall her ever giggling in the series. She's not a teenager - she's a grown woman for criminy sake! She's also fairly tough - ie. calmly eating an apple while the Captain's being tortured to death and Zoe and Wash are preparing to go get themselves killed. Also, not freaking out when her crush Simon got left behind in Safe.

Kaylee's a cool customer folks. She won't fall into hysterics near so often as she does in fics.

BTW, I was making this error myself until a beta reader (LeeH) pointed it out to me. I'm much happier writing a cute and naive but grown-up Kaylee. She's more believable and interesting, IMHO!

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Monday, September 11, 2006 5:00 AM

LEIASKY

Mal4Prez pointed the Kaylee thing out to me and I had to agree with her! It's a subtle change, especially in my writing, but it makes a world of difference. Thanks mucho babe!

For me, the biggest thing is making Jayne a cute, adorable, soft little teddy bear. He's not. He cares about himself, his money, and Vera... and his whores, of course.

That's not to say he doesn't care about other things, but so many writers overdo how much the man cares about the things/people around him and completely ruin his characterization by doing so.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, September 11, 2006 6:26 AM

AGENTROUKA

For me it's when the balance in a relationship is lost.

River may have teased Simon about being a boob and said that he "takes so much lookiong after", but there are just as many moments where she honestly adores him. In "Safe" and when he tells his stupid little story in "Out Of Gas" and such... People often over-emphasize her teasing into being patronizing.

Similarly, Simon is often robbed of a lot of complexity. He's written as the clumsy nerd or a cardboard prince charming for Kaylee, but that ignores his very strategic mind and keenly intelligent dry sarcasm. Not to mention, he may be noble, but he also has some very justified misgivings about his current life. There is ooften too little valid conflict.

Also, before Zoe would ever approach Inara about her relationship with Mal, she would approach Mal. It's the respectful, adult thing to do between friends and professionals. And Zoe is all about integrity. Fics with Zoe teling Inara about how mean she is to poor Mal... there are just too many of those.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 4:08 PM

RMMC

My pet peeve is folks not knowing what to do with Book, so they just kinda forget he's on board at all.

Book often operates in the show not only as the group's conscience, but he's a great tactician. Use it people! But also remember...he's not perfect. He'll make morallly borderline decisions. He's afraid of a death he can't fight. More on this in the Spoiler Zone.

Select to view spoiler:

Okay, was. Did ya notice he wasn't afraid when he actually was dying in the BDM where he'd actually been able to fight back, unlike in OoG where'd he'd been very frightened of dying by asphyxiation?

Just remember, all the characters are suppose to be human. They're all going to have off days (sometimes all at once) they get crabby at folks in retaliation for being annoyed with someone else, they'll say the wrong thing at the wrong time and have blind spots about some subjects.

******
RMMC

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Monday, September 11, 2006 6:36 PM

JETFLAIR

This thread is making me think, a lot! That's a good thing.

I have a problem with many Book charaterizations. Okay, we know he has a myterious and quite probably violent past, and a fic deliberately exploring that could be an intersting read. But on the show, and in fanfic attemting to stay true to the characters, Book is a gentle, sincere man of God. Remember his confession to Inara in the first ep? Or in the comics, his increasing involvement in violence being his reason for leaving the ship? When Book is violent, it should be startling, a "Huh" moment. I've seen a few too many fics read something like this:

"Hey, where's Book?"

"Book? Oh, he's off in the other room torturing some guy."

"Oh, okay. Cool."

NOT!

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

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Monday, September 11, 2006 8:52 PM

ARCADIA

Hmm… fanfic pet peeves:

1 –River: “You like Simon/Mal/Inara/Kaylee/Sasquatch. He/She likes you, too. Don’t deny it, I’m psychic. Just get together, because I have just pointed out how foolish/in love/covered in mayonnaise you two are.” Next Scene: “Simon/Mal/Inara/Kaylee/Sasquatch , I am in love/covered in mayonnaise with you. Lets be together forever!” First, why would River do this? Would she really know to do this? She’s a developmentally stunted teen. She doesn’t know about adult relationships, not first hand. She would be a fish out of water as a love doctor. Secondly, since when would Mal/Inara/Kaylee/Simon/Whoever listen? Change is internal. It doesn’t happen because River gives a speech.

2 – Inara suddenly realizing that her entire life is a sham/she is wrong about everything/she is a fool and must beg Mal for forgiveness. One, even if she did realize this, she has a lot of pride. Second, she would never realize this, because… she wouldn’t. It’s completely out of character. It’s just an easy way to resolve complex feelings, and it comes across as cheap.

3 – Zoe the suicidal robot post-Serenity. Yes, Zoe will grieve. It’s a loss she will carry with her the rest of her live. But Zoe is a warrior woman. She isn’t going to curl up an die. She’s a survivor. She’s going to live, and though she may lose her way a while, she’ll some day find something to live for.

4 – Rape fics. Not because they include rape, but because I feel that nine times out of ten instead of trying to really show what it would be like for one of the characters to deal with being a rape survivor, it does like this: She was raped. Oh god! Now, she has shut down completely. She doesn’t socialize. She talks in a monotone. She cries all day. For Months! But its okay, because her love interest pulls her out of her grief/funk, heals her emotional wounds, and then they get together, the horror now behind them.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Monday, September 11, 2006 9:29 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I just have to debate a little on the Zoe thing. You watch her in the movie, in the confrontation with the reavers, and she's like a Samurai going into battle. Woman is already dead. Okay, so maybe that wouldn't ever come up again? No, I can see her being a little more reckless than she otherwise would be, and all because she's a warrior woman. When you're a warrior who is pretty much already dead, you're able to do things you otherwise couldn't, but it's still more dangerous.
Okay, she still has things to live for. He wasn't her entire life. But he was a lot of it, and the fact is that something inside her has died. This can be an intriguing concept to explore. I'd love to see a really well-done fic that follows a whole arc with Zoe; her deadness and grief, her stubborness, and finally coming back from the edge. Or dying in some horribly noble way, because that could be realistic.
Just my two credits.

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There are two mistakes one can make along the road to truth...not going all the way, and not starting. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 2:19 AM

XEYRA

Most definitely having River refer to herself in the third person or as "the girl", which is even worse. And believe me, there are a LOT of fics that fall into that trap for some reason I can't fathom since, as been pointed out, she only does it twice in the entire series/movie/comics/R. Tam sessions, and once it's as a joke, the other (in Objects in Space) as a means to make a point (remember Mal is talking over her to Simon when she's right there next to him). It just annoys me to no end. I tend to back out of stories that overuse this, even if they are otherwise well-written, just because it's a really big pet-peeve of mine.

Completely unrelated (or maybe not so), I have a problem with having River refer to Mal as Captain Daddy. Where did *that* come from? I just cringe when she calls him that in fanfics.

"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:10 AM

ARCADIA

You watch her in the movie, in the confrontation with the reavers, and she's like a Samurai going into battle. Woman is already dead. Okay, so maybe that wouldn't ever come up again? No, I can see her being a little more reckless than she otherwise would be, and all because she's a warrior woman. When you're a warrior who is pretty much already dead, you're able to do things you otherwise couldn't, but it's still more dangerous

I’m not saying the recklessness would go away, because, as you said, it’s a sign of her grief. However, as reckless-samurai as she was in the Reaver battle scene, she did tell Mal at the end of Serenity, “She’s torn a plenty, but she’ll fly true.” She’s going to heal. Sure, it will take a long time, but it will happen. And during that time, she's going to be more interesting than a suicidal robot, because she has a lot more to offer than stoic grief.

As for captain daddy, I think its from Safe when River says, "Daddy's coming to take us home" (or something to that effect). Simon things she's talking about Gabriel Tam, but she's talking about Mal.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:51 AM

Xeyra - I'm so with you! The Safe "Daddy" thing was, IMHO, a metaphor to show that River (and Simon) can now think of Serenity as their home. The whole episode is about them - and Simon in particular - becoming crew.

In fact, I think River had been sensing Simon's memories of how he was abandoned by their father, and she's telling him that that won't happen on Serenity. I totally don't take it as her expressly calling Mal daddy. She may have father like feelings for Mal, but she wouldn't call him daddy.

Can you imagine her, in the final scene of the movie, saying "I can fly it captain-daddy"? *shudder*

It makes her sound like a 5 year old! I can be reading a fic where River is decently written, but as soon as "captain-daddy" comes out of her mouth, I totally lose it. It no longer seems like River to me, but some other character.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 4:38 AM

AGENTRUSCO

I hate the out of characterness as well. For me it is anything that is inconsitent with what we see in the show and the movie. Pairings for instance that have no correlation. They bug me to no end. Now, I've seen a Jaylee or two that I actually like... but gee. And certainly under this category is slash. Some people like that, but (for this show at least) that's not Joss idea. I refreain from reading such things.

I agree with most of what's been stated previously. Kid Kaylee, cuddly Jayne, girly Zoe, completely wack River, all that has to go. Makes my stomach turn.

When I write, I try to write moments in time durring the episodes or in the movie. That way, I can easily stay true to the characters. Course it also happens that I'm not all that creative when it comes to writing completely original material. So.

______________________________
I cannot abide useless people.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 4:42 AM

MRSU

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
For me it's when the balance in a relationship is lost.
River may have teased Simon about being a boob and said that he "takes so much looking after", but there are just as many moments where she honestly adores him.

I absolutely agree, on that and on simplified Simon too. In fact, the moment when she calls him a "boob" is the only one when she's really, deliberately mean and bratty to him. I'm viewing "He takes so much looking after" more like a lighter version of "My turn": she's proud that after all looking after he's done for her she can finally return the favour. And the moments when she's proud of him are so many more, in addition to Safe and OoG there're also scenes in Ariel when she's proud of him as a doctor, and in OiS when she's giggling over his mocking of Early, etc.
It's a very complex relationship, most interesting on the show, it pains me when it's not given a justice it deserves. There's another pet peave to it: when Simon is written as not understanding River, when everybody on the crew gets her better than him. Or when he's belittled for giving her medicines, because why would she need them - she's OK already. Yeah, sure.

And I also don't like when River is written as an action hero, enjoying heists and fights and such. She hates violence, she's kind by nature and when she has to act like a weapon it takes huge toll on her: she's horrified by what she has to do.

And it's an opposite pet peave with Inara: she's sometimes written as a delicate flower, all proper and refined, when she's in fact also a warrior woman in her own way and pretty bloody minded. There're many examples in FF/S when she wishes someone would be killed or die a horrible death, and she really means it. She can be dangerous and ruthless, like Mal.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 4:44 AM

Can't agree about the slash thing. Joss has no fear of gay characters, and I believe he's been quoted as saying suggestive things about the male characters on Firefly.

Seriously, if you watch the show looking for sexual tension between Simon and Mal, you'll find it! I prefer M/I myself, but I can't argue that that's the only way...

Edit: good point about River/Simon. I'm thinking I have her be a little rough on him sometimes, and that may need rethinking.

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:04 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by MRSU:
There's another pet peave to it: when Simon is written as not understanding River, when everybody on the crew gets her better than him. Or when he's belittled for giving her medicines, because why would she need them - she's OK already. Yeah, sure.

Oh god, yes!

River's brain has been irrevocably altered and it's most likely Simon's medication since "Ariel" that even allowed River the level of lucidity to defeat Jubal Early in the way she did. She walked into dangerous situations carelessly ("Bushwhacked", "Safe") and ran away from hair ("Jaynestown" - church metaphor or not) and had violent fits before that. Giant leap in self-control since then, because of Simon's care.

It's a falsely inserted sense of teen rebellion that just has no place in their relationship, not if the validity of Simon's concerns isn't aknowledged by the author.

Quote:
She hates violence, she's kind by nature and when she has to act like a weapon it takes huge toll on her: she's horrified by what she has to do.

Very good point. It was dancing that she loved. Her fighting abilities are something that was forced upon her. "Can't look, can't look."/"Put a bullet in me."/"You've always taken care of me, my turn." She'll do it if she has to, but I sincerely doubt it's something she embraces as an empowering skill.

Her most geniune moments of joy were always born out of harmony. Simon saving lives, happy memories, playing with Kaylee. She sees a tree branch in a gun. That's a creature of love, not of war.

And a healthy dose of agreement on the "Captain Daddy" dislike. It sounds weird and far too cutesy, even if it reflects the nature of her feelings for him.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:48 PM

MRSU

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Her most geniune moments of joy were always born out of harmony. Simon saving lives, happy memories, playing with Kaylee. She sees a tree branch in a gun.

That's a creature of love, not of war.

Yeah, that's why she's wearing all those hippie clothes. :)
Poor girl almost doesn't get any moments of joy in the movie, except the very end when she's flying the ship. It might be one of the reasons the movie felt so dark. That, and her not wearing hippie clothes anymore. :(

Going back to Simon and River relationship: yep, he surely deserves credit for changes in River in the show. She's very different after Ariel, not throwing things around, calmly conversing with Simon, like in Trash, calling him "a boob" (yes :)), admiring the baby in HoG, saving Kaylee in War Stories, saving everybody in OiS. He worked so hard for that, and it wasn't in vain.

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Friday, September 22, 2006 3:44 AM

Oh, lord now I'm paranoid.

I love the Castro, because if somebody grabs my ass, I know they're picking my pocket.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 5:57 AM

(This is following discussion started on the fic recommendation thread, regarding Mal's feelings toward River and his decision to include her in the theft in the BDM.)

nbz: where do you think Mal changed his mind about the Tams? I was always figured it was the Kaylee scene - she tells him he's a nice man, which draws that little bit of noble out of him. Of course, he has to get at Simon first with the dead Kaylee trick, because he can't just be nice. Has to balance it with being a jerk LOL!

Platonist: I'm with nbz that the "tears" comment was more a dig at Simon. But it takes a callous kind of person to make a joke like that. And even if River wanted to take part, (which I think she did) that doesn't excuse Mal for putting her in danger. I mean, she might not have understood the situation fully, not with the cracked brainpan and all. So Mal taking her along was pretty much exploitation, just as you said.

Meaning, I'm totally with you guys re dark Mal. He does bad stuff - that's part of what's fun about him!

But there is a nice man in him somewhere, and I think he does have a bit of fondness for River, a respect that she earned when she dealt with Jubal Early. But I don't think he's going to go around patting her on the head and calling her sweetie or anything - he may feel a fondness but he surely won't make any effort to express it. Not as I understand him. He's more likely to cover it up as much as he can.

Which is why I moved to this thread - this discussion got me thinking of a Mal characterization that gets to me. It seems like fanfic tends to have a Mal who's very aware of his feelings, who ponders or discusses his emotional state at length.

I see him as separate not only from others but from himself. Part of what I love about how Nathan plays him is the subtlety - Mal certainly feels things, but you can see him clamping down on it, making an effort to stay cool and numb, to take action and not to analyze himself.

What do you guys think? I've had disagreements about this with a beta reader I respect mightily, so I know there are other ways to interpret him...

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Friday, August 17, 2007 6:58 AM

great thread.

think i'm with you on this Mal4prez.

i'm revisiting Mal's character muself right now in prep 4 a post-BDM fic...

keep this thread active coz it's got me thinking!

i'll get back to you guys.

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Friday, August 17, 2007 8:13 AM

Yeah, callous... that's a fairly succinct way of describing Mal's behavior. And he is most like that when hurt or threatened, as in Shindig toward Kaylee and the cake dress.

I find it strange though, that he is consistently portrayed in canon as being insensitive and "out of touch" with his feelings, but he is the one who initiates "feelings" discussions with Inara, as in the deleted shuttle scene, or at the end of HOG. Are these attempts on his part to rejoin the human race or are they inconsistent character portrayals?

And to be honest, I don't think that we'll see a much different Mal in a sequel. Sure he won one for his side, had a character arc, and is metaphoring on love, but I still think he has a long way to go before becoming whole and establishing a lasting relationship with Inara.

Maybe that's what Joss left to revisit and explore.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 9:00 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

The most profound pieces of Mal (IMHO) are the pieces that are missing or warped. Those seem to be the bridge for the wrong stuff he does for the right reasons. He won't do wrong to someone just because he can. Sure he'll rib at someone, but in the name of comraderie. If they get butt hurt by what he says then oh well. They can't take a joke. That's the thing about folks with missing parts. It takes certain associations to see the missing parts. Most of the time the fire in those associations have nothing to do with the person they are aimed at. Like the Mal/Inara thing. They could never be whole. Lasting is a stretch as they will eventually say enough to really hurt, maybe injure each other. There is the test. Two people who are not whole by themselves can never hope to be whole with another person. An obvious character flaw most people fail (or refuse) to recognize.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
nbz: where do you think Mal changed his mind about the Tams? I was always figured it was the Kaylee scene - she tells him he's a nice man, which draws that little bit of noble out of him. Of course, he has to get at Simon first with the dead Kaylee trick, because he can't just be nice. Has to balance it with being a jerk LOL!

Yeah the 'verse has to remain in balance. For every good deed...

It is that very scene you mention, but IMO BEFORE kaylee wakes up. You know the bit where he has his back to her pondering over a sleeping River? In effect, (IMO) by the time of his exchange with Kaylee he has already decided.

Before then, it has been one crisis after another where he does not have a chance to think, he sticks with his first thoughts 'til he gets a chance to think everything through. That is where I say he makes his (I still think somewhat out of character) decision.

Quote:
He does bad stuff - that's part of what's fun about him!

Too true. I also like him (and crew) to do things which are plain wrong. Yes, Mal can be honourable when he wants, but he can also be petty. (In HoG: "This distress call wouldn't be taking place in someone's pants, would it?" is a low blow after being outmanoeuvred.)

Quote:
Which is why I moved to this thread - this discussion got me thinking of a Mal characterization that gets to me. It seems like fanfic tends to have a Mal who's very aware of his feelings, who ponders or discusses his emotional state at length.

I see him as separate not only from others but from himself. Part of what I love about how Nathan plays him is the subtlety - Mal certainly feels things, but you can see him clamping down on it, making an effort to stay cool and numb, to take action and not to analyze himself.

What do you guys think? I've had disagreements about this with a beta reader I respect mightily, so I know there are other ways to interpret him...

I pretty much agree with that. One question I do have is.. Is Mal ultra-aware of his surroundings or not?

He seems good at reading people (only reason to throw the money back to Patience is to keep Jayne on side.) which suggests so, but at other times he has to be guided to avoid stepping in things.

(He also has a dangerous tendency of not taking notice of where Jayne goes after giving him a verbal lashing. That is the last time I would have Jayne pass behind me. But Zoe is there to cover.)

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Friday, August 17, 2007 10:58 AM

i think many (tho not all) changes in mal's characterization - post BDM - would be subtle but profound, reflecting Fillion's acting.

This makes life Verrry difficult for the writer though.. because the nuances are hard to catch!

on the other hand - the great thing about mal (coupled with the format of the show itself)
is that the character is flexible enough to encompass moments (and indeed plot arcs) that are quite dark,
while still being a plausible foil for comedy and heroics.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 11:33 AM

ZONER

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
(This is following discussion started on the fic recommendation thread, regarding Mal's feelings toward River

?????????????????????

River - wild nature
runs through the land

Mal sees the land as taken
she represents damage / loss / natural feeling

Mal fears this in himself as a stoic

he looks ahead to the Sky

River forces him to confront the now

he cannot look away - but he does not want to see.

???????????????????????

zoner is a conduit

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Friday, August 17, 2007 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
The most profound pieces of Mal (IMHO) are the pieces that are missing or warped. Those seem to be the bridge for the wrong stuff he does for the right reasons.

...Or the right stuff for the wrong reasons. :P

(yes, I do harp on about him being evil and all that, but it is a very unexplored side. Too many people portray him as all heroic. Which he is, but that is not all there is. I'm playing as a sort of devil's advocate.)

One other thing I cannot really say as fact, but I am pretty sure that Mal has a manipulative side to him (like any great leader). We only get a small glimpse of it in Bushwacked (Somehow the least favourite episode for alot of people out of the whole series!) with that whole making peace with the dead speech.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 2:45 PM

NVGHOSTRIDER

The manipulation allows him to justify the things he does, good or bad. He has to lessen the attention of the bad stuff 'cause, well, he don't like the idea of being caught. Of course he doesn't mind the reputation involved because it makes his job easier and allows him a bit of job security. Of course the good stuff he struggles with most. He knows what is to be right. Even with the loss of faith in god he still feels there are dues to be paid. Regardless if he has lost faith in god he still hold true to the beliefs that formed him. He knows god exists but is all manner of pissed at him/it.

I also believe Mal may have been victimized or carries some inherited trauma. Coupled with the places he's been and the things he's done opens a huge rift for character exploration. Of course it is all speculation but written well it would be interesting before it is entertaining. That may be a cause for concern for writers who look for high numbers of readers. I'm sure many would lose interest as there are details and down time that really help define who he really is.

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Friday, August 17, 2007 9:57 PM

I can't stand it when the women are completely flat.

Zoe is just all stone cold, warrior but complete mush in reference to Wash (post or pre BDM)

Inara is all wise and perfect and slightly sardonic but completely smitten with Mal.

Kaylee is just so happy! All the time! She's never sad! Unless Simon's not looking at her :(

Because of their specific percieved roles on the show, they are rarely put outside their boxes. All of them are more then they are percieved as. Like the whole soup thing with Zoe. Not weak or mushy, just sweet, rarely a word applied to Zoe. Furthermore she's protective of the crew. She rarely shows it, but it's obvious that these people (with the exception of Jayne) are her friends.

Inara is always like, the Oracle for other characters. When they have a problem they go to her (or Book, depending on the timeline). What about her issues and I don't just mean her and Mal. I seriously doubt that she is just nurturing/beautific. I thought Shindig was a good example of her other qualities. Her want for freedom, but at the same time she is still a person, not just a Companion. She wants affection and respect and belonging.

And Kaylee is honestly one of the most underwritten characters. She's always the same in most fics! All sunshine, engine grease and strawberries. I get that she's loving and sensitive, but for God's sake, let her grow up! Everyone has a dark side and things they aren't proud of! No one is happy all the time, optimism or no.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Friday, August 17, 2007 10:03 PM

great post Danni!

and you are so right about Kaylee! but GORRAM! is she hard to write! she offers such a chance for shorthand 'tv-ish' moments but it's at the expense of her character. She is one of the characters i am in a hole right now trying to work out a new approach to that still feels like FireFly.

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 4:07 AM

KATESFRIEND

I think the biggest part of Mal's character we see is defined by his post traumatic stress disorder. According to Joss, that was the framework for the character modeled after Civil War survivors. I think it's very hard for anyone to truly understand how Mal would react unless they have had the same kinds of trauma he had, and thankfully not many people ever have that kind of stress in their lives. One fic author who has PTSD writes a striking Mal, different than many others, but completely true to Joss. The next most believable Mal IMO is Mal4Prez, because of how she writes the PTSD - and then enhanced it. As soon as Mal becomes someone defined outside of his PTSD, he stops being Mal and either becomes a fluffy hero, or an outlaw with a good side, and I think he's much more than that.

I think the point of using River on the heist on Lilac was to show how truly desparate he was - that he was at the end of all his resources, and because sheltering the Tam's had driven away the easy jobs. I don't think it was something he was proud of. Many people with a cynical nature are at heart a bleeding humanist, who've been hurt too often and lash out rather than risk taking another blow.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend

I think the point of using River on the heist on Lilac was to show how truly desparate he was - that he was at the end of all his resources, and because sheltering the Tam's had driven away the easy jobs. I don't think it was something he was proud of. Many people with a cynical nature are at heart a bleeding humanist, who've been hurt too often and lash out rather than risk taking another blow.

Well said! Insightful

I don't think it was Joss's intention for any of his women characters to be portrayed weak or wooden because of their gender, especially, Inara. I cringe when I read anything remotely suggestive.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:01 AM

Quote:

I don't think it was Joss's intention for any of his women characters to be portrayed weak or wooden because of their gender, especially, Inara. I cringe when I read anything remotely suggestive.

yeah - i've been arguing about this - it's complex, allowing a femminine side to charatcers without falling into a 'weak' sterotype - but not over compensating with a wooden 'warrior woman' cardboard cut out. I tried to explore different kinds of potential female strength (and power) in my 'dresses' bit of fic. it's made trickier by the fact that different writers on the show emphasise (sp?) different aspects of the characters.

one cliche that really bugs me is the oversimplification of River as 'a child trapped in a woman's body' coz it's often an excuse for slightly dubious/creepy and paternalistic minded sexist claptrap.

same with the River as a being of nature thing.

she has elements of both this things but she is much more complex than the cliches often allow.

when i was helping zoe nowhere with her River Dance piece i made damn sure she put in some refs to River's knowledge of science/maths atleast.

interstingly i used to have the same problem with Fred in Angel - always being called 'fey' 'childlike' but at the same time a geeks 'science hotty dream'. i guess it's hardest of all for the fic writer because of course the actors bring so much dimension to a role - they can suggest so much extra. the writer tends to have to be a bit more explicit which is sthe devil's road to cliche hell.

great thread this still!

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:05 AM

I actually recently got slammed because people felt that my characterization of Kaylee was too "un-Kaylee" because of somethings I had her do in a fic. It really pissed me off because I really felt that what I had her doing was in fact realistic to her character and that it would effect her in a certain way. (Probably got all those reviews from people who like Silee and it was a Jaylee fic.)

Good characterizations of Kaylee? Go check out Jacqui's stuff. Esp "Pieces". Just enter her name and fireflyfans.net into google. If Jaylee squicks you it might bother you, but her Kaylee is amazing.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:21 AM

-vump 4 plato! -

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
[QUOTE
one cliche that really bugs me is the oversimplification of River as 'a child trapped in a woman's body' coz it's often an excuse for slightly dubious/creepy and paternalistic minded sexist claptrap.

same with the River as a being of nature thing.

she has elements of both this things but she is much more complex than the cliches often allow.

Well, I see River as an adolescent. A gifted traumtized one at that. And if that's not complex enough as it is; I don't know what is.

My big cliche grip with her fic portrayal is that she not only has knowledge ("all the math in the verse"), but she is infinitely wise about the nature of life. And when her dialog is plucked right out of a fortune cookie.

And post BDM, when she goes from 17 to 30 in 6 months time in order to be paired up with a BDH.

I'm always left asking, where's my River? She didn't have to to grow and discover herself and face her demons. ARHHHG!!

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:34 AM

LOL yeh i'm with you on that!..
a high 'Grrr! Arrgh!' factor.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:40 AM

Oh, I liked Dresses by the way!

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:29 AM

-vump 4 nbz -

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:08 AM

Just read the original post be Jetflair. uncannily accurate.

@Katesfriend, would love to know who you think has the most accurate Mal. Should be a good read at the very minimum.

A question about River - why is she portrayed by some as having the screams of 30 million people inside her head up until Miranda?

As far as I know, she was probably in the vicinity of one person - someone who had already seen that video we see in the BDM, and she found that memory very traumatic - didn't really understand it, more or less forgot about it (but in a bad/traumatic way or something. am no expert at all in how this is supposed to work).

Going back to a previous point while Mal WAS exploiting a willing River at the start of the BDM, I do not have any issue with that. Can't really say it would have been safer to stay on the ship either.

Post BDM she will have to deal with the guilt of survival. This could become a major issue - especially as the people around her will not be the best of company. Mal has not got over the War - let alone the new deaths, Zoe has just lost Wash (which River may feel guilt over too), Simon still pines for his old life that he willingly gave up. Inara has already had two midlife crisis. Kaylee and Jayne I am not too sure about.

One thing about stereotypes is that they are there because some people like to write them, others like to read them.

@ the Jaylee angle, I was very surprised when I came across it. It was something that I did not see at all until it was pointed out(about 2 scenes that give less than a hint to me).

In the fanfic 'verse, Jayne is almost a male whore. I think he has been partnered up with every single of the BDH, and a lot of OC's too. That really is disconcerting. Unfair competition to everyone else I say. (by which I do not mean everyone else should get more romance, but that there should be less overall. You can write the best prose in the world, and I will still read "A shoots B gets double crossed by C".)

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:11 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

This is a really interesting thread. I have to say I am intrigued. I don't read a lot of fic because I find it difficult to wade through everything we've got out there. I have been turned off by many if the characterization issues mentioned here. Now maybe I don't have so much right to post here but I'm going to anyway.

Now someone mentioned Mal as a PTSD sufferer. Yes! were can I find these fics? I have some experience with this as my father suffers from it (and he really identifies with the character of Mal). It can make for a really complex and contradictory person. My dad is a wonderful, caring, gentle, genrous person. He's also angry, bitter, bloody minded and cruel. He's also afraid, not that most folk would know it, but that fear helps to cause a lot of that second list. I have yet to come across a fic with a properly comlex Mal (but as I said, I don't read many of them these days).

I also have an issue with some peoples assumptions about Inara, her job, and Mal's feelings about the later. I don't hink she's in anyway ashamed of her job, on the contrary, she's proud of it. It's a position of skill and respect that she worked hard to gain. In the verse, there is no stigma attached to what she does as there is in our own society and people shouldn't try to create one in thier stories. If she and Mal were to ever hook up (which I actually think is unlikely) I don't believe she would stop being a companion. She might scale back her activities to a few select clients but being a companion isn't just what she does. I believe it is a part of who she is.
And I don't think Mal has any real issues with Companions. I believe him when he says he doesn't respect it but I imagine there are a lot of things he doesn't respect. And he's a lot more comfortable with the straight forward whores at the Heart of Gold. The trappings of politics and power that go with the title of Companion make him a bit uncomfortable but not the job itself. And when he calls Inara a whore it's not because he dislikes what she does or really believes she is one. It's because he knows it's the surest way to put a barb in her.

Holy CRAP! I've babbled a lot more than I planned to. Feel free to ignore my ramblings.

and Cpt. Daddy...no
Just..no....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

@ the Jaylee angle, I was very surprised when I came across it. It was something that I did not see at all until it was pointed out(about 2 scenes that give less than a hint to me).

In the fanfic 'verse, Jayne is almost a male whore. I think he has been partnered up with every single of the BDH, and a lot of OC's too. That really is disconcerting. Unfair competition to everyone else I say. (by which I do not mean everyone else should get more romance, but that there should be less overall. You can write the best prose in the world, and I will still read "A shoots B gets double crossed by C".)

I really think that it depends on the specific Browncoat. To my knowledge (I definately get around in the fanfic community) I've seen just about every possible pairing with EVERYONE! Name a pairing, I've seen a fic with it in there. To give you an idea, here's a list of pairing communities on LJ and not even close to all of them:

civilizedrules Simon/Inara
light_it, Simon/River
kayleewash, Kaylee/Wash
mal_inara, Mal/Inara
mal_river, Mal/River
rayne_shippers, River/Jayne
the_pretty_fits, Mal/Simon
zoe_wash, Zoe/Wash
jayne_simon, Jayne/Simon
enginesex, Simon/Kaylee
jaylee_ship, Jayne/Kaylee
iluvmycaptain, Mal/Kaylee
shiny_hats, Mal/Jayne
shinyheroes, Mal/Wash
mal_zoe, Mal/Zoe
ji_beyond_this, Jayne/Inara
geniusxmechanic, Kaylee/River
mercandthemate, Jayne/Zoe

and some of the pairings from another general jossverse shippage site are amazing! I think it's unfair to say that this phenomenon is applied specifically to Jayne.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:26 AM

great post! got me thinking! c'mon peeps - get recommending...

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:03 AM

I agree with everything you said Kayna.
Inara should and is respected by everyone, but Mal for what she does.

I do think there are philosophical questions to consider when labeling her a "Companion", though. Is it what she does or what she is?

After all Book wasn't born a Shepherd, but it is what he does and what he is.
Last I looked we are all born human, including Inara. She may always Companion, but is that what she is?
I think this may be the cause of her inner struggle (beyond the love issue) and I love fics that explore this.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:14 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Oh no! I didn't mean being a Companion is all that she is. I just mean that it is a part of what she is. None of our BDHs are so simple as to be accurately labeld with a single word ot title whether they've chosen it or not. Just like real people. That's what makes them so wonderful.

And as to he inner struggle, I agree but I also think part of it is about how others percieve her. So much of what she does is about other people and their images of her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:02 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

Well, I see River as an adolescent. A gifted traumtized one at that. And if that's not complex enough as it is; I don't know what is.

My big cliche grip with her fic portrayal is that she not only has knowledge ("all the math in the verse"), but she is infinitely wise about the nature of life. And when her dialog is plucked right out of a fortune cookie.

And post BDM, when she goes from 17 to 30 in 6 months time in order to be paired up with a BDH.

I'm always left asking, where's my River? She didn't have to to grow and discover herself and face her demons. ARHHHG!!

Thank you! Granted I am not one that is a good enough writer to be talking about the flaws of writers and canon, but one thing that still gets me is the Post BDM, mature, lucid River. Granted River was immensely better by the end of the BDM, but I don't think she would end up completely healed and able to carry on a normal life as Serenity's pilot/weapon/knower-of-all/lover-to-someone.

I can see her doing better, but still always just ever so slightly 'off', articulate, yet still disjointed in her dialog and somewhere mentally out in the distance because let's face it, after being labotomized a person is never going to be a 100% (unless 500 years from now the surgeons can fix the damaged area of the brain, hey if you want that, be my guest). Like you said, she still needs to learn and face alot of demons. I also think she would really keep that childlike quality for a very long time. Her body may mature, however I think her mind would be stuck in a state of genius adolesence because it has been through so much trauma she's unable to mentally grow in that aspect because her mind has just sort of retreated into that safe place that is childhood. And it all would just keep her as this incredibly multi-faceted creature that is just on the cusp of normalicy, yet not able to reach it.

I doubt relationships for her as well, because besides the fact that she's far too young for anyone, I don't think there's someone out there in the 'verse that would be capable of understanding and taking on all of the baggage that she comes with. There would be baggage, lots of baggage, we're talking hotel rooms of it. It would be insanely hard for anyone to wrap their heads around her mental state as well as her past and understand the complexities she faces every day.

This all comes from a person who writes a generally happy Mal and has immense problems canoning Inara

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:06 PM

aint much to quibble with there!

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Saturday, August 18, 2007 12:57 PM