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Originally posted by TheHeroOfWilliamtown:
I don't see it that hard to imagine. I mean if you had to listen to the various thoughts of the crew all day hanging around with Jayne would be relaxing. He would probably like her because she can actually beat him up and that sets her apart from most girls i'd conjure.

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And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

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Originally posted by RiverFlan:

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
I have to say that as much as I don't like Rayne and really don't like the Firefly love-boat scenario, I do appreciate that the point of fanfic is for people to make what they want of this lovely verse. The argument that Joss didn't intend for something to happen can actually be taken as the best reason to write it - ie, perhaps the only way fans can ever experience Rayne is through fanfic.

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And, of course, I completely agree.

But, by the same argument, I had to defend his' or her's right to say otherwise.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:


It seems like there should be a fantasy fic classification or something.

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Originally posted by Mobbex:
You are better at dying

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And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

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Thank god ! Do you mind if I use this quote in my sig?

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"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Mobbex: Would you mind too terribly if I stole your sig pic for my custom Avatar? That pic is really cool. I'd appreciate it .

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Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

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Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

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OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!

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Originally posted by RiverFlan:

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

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Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

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OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!

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Yes, absolutely!

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Feel free to have at it. Not much of a writer here. I'm more of the graphically inclined type.

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Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Why Rayne...when it can pour?

Well, not really, but why are there so many stories that involve River and Jayne getting together?! I'm trying to understand people's fascination with putting those two as a couple.

Is it a case of "If you ain't with the one you love, love the one you're with" or is there some kind of deep psychological meaning behind putting a psychic teenager with a late-thirties/early-forties mercenary?

I can kinda see that it's sorta funny to put somone who can hear all of a person's thoughts with someone whose thoughts no one would want to hear. But seriously....WHY?!

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Originally posted by Steamer:
I've been asking myself the same question for years. I think it's just because they're the only two on the ship who aren't already paired, which, to me, makes it even more ridiculous. Personally, I despise Rayne. In fact, I can't even read a lot of fanfic because so much of it either is Rayne or turns out to be. Just thinking about it makes me sick, especially since there's so much more to fandom than who's sleeping with whom, and since Jayne is more than twice River's age and there's canonically nothing between them but animosity. How the hell do you fall in love with someone who repeatedly schemes to kill, maim, or otherwise remove you from his space and doesn't even apologise?

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Originally posted by AngelintheBlack:
I dont much understand why there is so much Rayne if your looking at it from that view.

Some of the stories do follow that "Love the one your with" scenario, while others play with her "reading" his mind and not being opposed to what she sees, and the yet others play with the "every one else has someone and this was the one that was left."

I think the reason for there being so much Rayne is, theres no real need to add a new main character. They can play with the cannon pairings (Mal/ Inara, Simon/Kaylee, Zoe/Wash) and just make a logical leap and make Jayne and River a couple. That leaves them fewer options but if thats what they want to run with thats up to them.
I much prefer the stories where the writes introduce new characters that may or may not be a romantic relation for river or any other character. It gives more possibilities to play with and more chance for a plot to become truely developed and stantch its reader.

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Originally posted by Jane0904:
I write Rayne. Not only Rayne, but as part of my Maya series. And the truth is, I didn't intend to. When I started writing fanfic, I thought the idea of the merc and the assassin was ridiculous, and resolved never to write anything like that.

But it crept up on me. In my developing world, I had them start out becoming friends-ish. After all, River is the ultimate human weapon, and if nothing else Jayne appreciates a good gun. In the end I let it happen slowly, naturally, with a lot of obstacles, not least of which was Simon shooting Jayne because he thought he'd slept with his sister.

I have to say that people who automatically discount a story just because of a particular pairing might be missing out on something good. Bad writing is one thing, but give a decent tale a shot - you never know, you might enjoy it.

And as for age ... so?

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Originally posted by WakeupSoon:
Personally, I don't like pure Rayne stories. If its something that happened over the course of time, seemingly naturally, and in the background of another story I don't mind it. But if a story is pure Rayne *shudder* s'not my thing ..

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm with Steamer. In the "everyone-must-be-paired" approach to fanfiction, River and Jayne MUST be a couple. No matter that the canon characters have to be completely altered to make it happen in any kind of believable way.

Also, I think there's often a Mary Sue-ness to the pairing. Writer/readers who identify with River and crush on Jayne can use a River Sue to act out their fantasy relationship. "Girl Tames Wild Man and Finds his Softer Side." Classic bodice-ripper plot. And not un-interesting. I like that kind of story fine, I just can't stomach the hack job it does on Joss's complex and wonderful characters.

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Originally posted by Platonist:
I’m with Mal4prez, River romances are wildly popular; her character has cult status brought on by the BDM. She’s a favorite of fans. I've seen her paired with any and all crew members, especially Mal and Jayne. It’s an easy set up and it doesn’t create much in the way of obstacles for her or the writer. She just reads their minds and finds out they’re ACTUALLY in love with her (because everyone loves River, fans and crewmembers, alike, total Marysueness) and she takes it from there. My suggestion is, don’t read it if you don’t like it, it’s just fanfic.

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Originally posted by Katesfriend:
I try to be open minded about other people's ideas because I know I certainly don't have all the answers to the human equation. But the biggest sex organ in the human body is the brain. If two people don't have something to be compatible with on an intellectual level, they aren't going to have much - if at all - any kind of sexual attraction that would stand the test of time. That's just the way we're wired. And all the wishing and character reinventing in the world won't change that. But if you want to write Rayne, I won't dis you for it, but I won't agree with it either.

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Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Oh, but Steamer, have you read no bodice-rippers? Men who want to kill, control and if at all possible destroy you are rendered irresistibly sexy. No, never read one, just heard the inane conversations that follow. Wish I had a "delete" key.

In real life, the phrase "Also, I can kill you with my brain" is not immediately followed by "and take your psycological clothes off, sexy man-ape-gone-wrong-thing." One of the first fics I ever stumbled on was this type of Rayne--I wasn't warned.

mal4prez also pretty much nailed it. The General Mary-Sue Law of Fanfic decrees (in addition!) that the most unsuitable characters will be paired no matter if they are elsewhere paired already, biologically incompatible or even dead etc. It's about pairing. dopples...you catch my drift. eeeehwwwyggghg. :upchuck: I like warning lables when and if I read fanfic.

I'm not a fan of Maliver either, or whatever Mal + River is known as. They're the same kind of crazy, but not the same kind of intimate.

dmaanlileiltt's: this should really be a thread. Clearly much sentiment.

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Originally posted by BlueEyedBrigadier:
Honestly, it’s a $64,000 question in the Firefly fandom…at least for some fans, honestly. I know I have personally struggled with an effective way to convey WHY I like the idea of River and Jayne hooking up when I have discussed the concept with others, which of course can be taken as evidence that the whole ship is extremely fanciful and just an imposition of Harlequin romance plotlines onto Joss’ magnificent sandbox that is the Big Damn Series and Big Damn Movie. I personally feel that it’s because their relationship CAN be perceived as just as complicated as any of the other ‘canon’ pairings. I say ‘can be’ instead of ‘is’ from the fact that Jayne does act in a mainly antagonistic manner toward River other than the odd moment or two that have been assigned meaning…which admittedly means as much AGAINST the pairing as it does FOR.

There’s a number of given reasons I’ve seen for having River and Jayne get together romantically, ranging from the mentioned “River’s now a living weapon and Jayne idolizes weaponry in all forms” (which is rather shallow, since River’s not really shown to be super-eager to bust out her combat skills and Jayne’s supposed appreciation would only stretch to a part of River’s overall self instead of the whole) to “Jayne’s straightforward in thoughts in actions, so River’s gotta appreciate that lots! (I.e. Jayne doesn’t have much subtlety or a habit of thinking one thing and saying another, so it’s HAS to cut down on her mental confusion). And all of them kinda fail the realistic human behaviour version of the Turing test, as has been noted in previous comments….Jayne loves weapons BUT ones he can use or understand effectively, so River would be way too random until control is gained; River’s inability to properly filter external thoughts is shown in the series, but Jayne being linear and uncomplicated would be a temporary respite and doesn’t really prevent him from thinking thoughts that are unpleasant to River’s sensibilities

But really? EVERY long-term relationship – potential or established – in Firefly/Serenity can have the same arguments applied to it, so the confusion and disdain for Rayne (heh…rhymed!) isn’t lacking in company if one uses the same romantic Turing test guidelines…even the Washburne marriage was shown to be imperfect (which, IMO, is how it should be). The series presented 3 relationships – Simon and Kaylee’s adventures in flirting, Mal and Inara UST tango, and the Washburnes’ “old” married couple routine – and all three showed signs of incompatible elements that barely got fleshed out that would cause just as much conflict between the involved parties as it would logically with River and Jayne:


Now, said statement relating to the stability of the 3 couples being less than guaranteed is not meant to excuse the idea of River and Jayne developing feelings for each other as being just as rational as a Guild Companion falling for an ex-rebel army NCO or a 26th century Doogie Howser having romantic sparks for a mechanical savant who ostensibly embodies Rim culture, but as an attempt to indicate that even the relationship with the most stability – Wash and Zoë – possessed factors that could have lead to some angst and drama had the series run longer and the plotlines travelled in certain directions. The concept of River and Jayne falling in love – or just deciding to be bunk buddies during the transits between destinations – is something that’s really something engineered in the fan community….but I think plausible.

I admittedly used to love stories where River and Jayne hooked up during the time of the series, if only for the creativity of the author in how these two started something with each other, but I have come to see that any chance of a Tam-Cobb romantic pairing comes from the two of them becoming friends first in the wake of the Miranda Wave and the crew having to evolve in their roles to cope with the loss of two important crewmates. It wouldn’t be instantaneous and it certainly wouldn’t be anything resembling smooth, but I think they would have found something to build a deeper understanding on; elements like the age discrepancy – 15 to 25 years seems like a reasonable range estimate, accounting for things like increased physical and mental stresses on Jayne from a career as a mercenary – and River’s skill sets (she’s a super-genius and either telepathic or empathic with the capability of calculating probability in relation to event outcomes, so I dunno how many people out of the total human population of 70+ planets and moons can match her intellectually) would need to be explored a lot to make something like Rayne comprehensible.

I guess, in the end, I don’t think I can really sum up why Rayne intrigues me so much other than to fall back on clichés and thin justifications…at least not to suddenly make all the haters and fence sitters change sides. Maybe it’s the possibilities inherent in having the embodiments of theoretical and practical learning helping to round each other out, or a romanticized view of having the crew’s two outsiders finding kindred spirits in each other or simply a sense of disbelief that anyone bar another Academy student can really understand River in the ways that most people indicate are required for a functional long-term relationship that make me lean toward what is admittedly at best a May-December romance.

Now that I think of it, maybe the words of a fellow Browncoat and Rayne shipper Elidyce/Dyce, who – I feel personally – has summed up the inherent conundrum of River and Jayne in a much better way. Check out her informative and well-structured essay supporting Rayne at http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/909582.html, since it basically covers all the arguments against Rayne while presenting what I perceive to be logical counterpoints to said topics of debate.

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Originally posted by gripper:
I admit it IS a cool concept in an "opposites attract-we never saw THAT comming" kind of way.
It DOES make sense if one considers Jayne having hidden depths beyond an external "West Texas Badman" persona.
Hell, during the scene in "Serenity",when River was in "Kill Mal" mode;and Jayne attempted to control her by a body-lock(as opposed to his usual "Hit hard,first and in the head" tactic(right before she hammerfisted his testicles)I figured him getting soft on her.
Or,maybe I just like the idea of the outlaw biker type winding up with River-either as a sisterly/daughter type of affection or a serious adult relationship...one of you DID remark on his appreciation of fine weaponry.

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Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
It looks like I opened a can of worms and that everybody has an opinion on the matter.

I didn't mean that it's a horrible thing that should never have been concieved, it's just a bit cliched even though it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

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Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Well, I for one have never understood the APPEAL of Rayne beyond the "never-woulda-seen-THAT-coming" angle.

Why are reasons that people LIKE it, see it AS canon-compatible? Or if they don't, why do people insist it's canon-compatible?

Another question: How much romantic/sexual River-fic was there prior to Serenity? Did it take off after the Movie?

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