BLUE SUN ROOM

Rayne Lovers and Haters

POSTED BY: CRYSTALKEI
UPDATED: Sunday, June 14, 2009 06:41
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 18480
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Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:13 AM

NBZ


having read a little of SpaceANJL's fic, I will defend her. A little. Because it has so far not gone into romance and is still at sort of friendship where Mal is still pining over Inara.

I think I read through (and enjoyed) most of the first two tales before It "clicked" where it was heading.

She does have good characterisations, but I am wary where it will go. Especially as it is meant to at some point have Mal and River in a non-platonic relationship. Which could (would?) be all kinds of wrong.

Her original character I do not care too much for, but is better than most I have read, and does not seem to be a Mary Sue. (Like most I prefer mostly canon characters. Others take time to become memorable, and my reading style is to skip the details and get to the substance. "Who got shot?" "Why?" type of stuff mostly.)

So far spaceANJL has tread carefully. It is a shame that it will eventually lead to romance ,as I find their friendship much more intriguing. there is a peaceful acceptance of each other in the few moments you see them together in canon.

(I have not commented directly on the fic because of the dread-factor. I Don't want to be too encouraging even if it is really well written. Yes, I can be an ass.)

It is entirely believable for me to think River will have a crush on Mal, but it is the reciprocation where I fail to "see". For some reason this is less offensive to my tastes than Rayne. I have no idea why.

I am a sucker for good crew interaction. Especially Mal and River. I just don't believe in the reciprocal romance.

(If I was a writer, I would have River rely more and more on Mal and then pull the chain. Get rid of Mal. Why? because I don't think I can kill Simon - even though I generally dislike him in fanfic.)

As a balance, Rayne-wise I read through the stories by Kaynara (on this very site). Like most of her stuff till it went way too dark for me. (and IMO unrealistically too.) Apart from that Kaynara was a god author who took quite a few "brave" directions. (I will be honest that if I knew where it would go, I would have probably avoided it. but Rayne reered its fangs after I was hooked, so I did what I do with most pairing I am uncomfortable with. Assume those sections are not there.) A thing in (IMO) favour of Kaynara is that the romance was mostly a sub-plot. Not the main thing.

PS The romance still was not realistic IMO. and I did not care for the ending. It broke my first rule of fanfic (in spoiler tags to spare those who want to read the stories).

Select to view spoiler:


The first three rules are:
1. RIVER TAM MUST NOT DIE.
2. RIVER TAM MUST NOT DIE.
3. RIVER TAM ....



/See's the irony in a Rayne-hater pushing stories with Rayne.

EDIT - I eddited this post as I think it did not come out right the first time.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:48 PM

JETFLAIR


I wouldn't go so far as to express hatred for any pairing, but there are many I strongly dislike. Foremost, River paired with *any* of Serenity's existing crew.

Someone asked me in a chat, if I *had* to pair River romantically with someone on the crew, who would it be? I chose Kaylee/River....but not because I thought they worked together, simply that as outlandishly farfetched as it was, it was a little less so than the others.

Frankly, the age difference squicks me. A lot. The physical and the mental/emotional ages.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:41 PM

SWEETESTHAT




I read a bit of everything, fic-wise, whether pairings (almost any will do), non-romance adventure or humor. (Love the humor!)

And I've gotta say... I do like Rayne.

I like the contrasts: old/young, big/little, smart/"simple". I like the similarities: both killers, practical, the lovely bickering between them. As we see them in the series, it might not be all that logical, but who's to say they wouldn't have changed in the show's future to the point where a relationship might have worked? Joss's characters, unlike other shows, do have a tendency to grow and change. That's part of the fun.

Then again, I don't usually sweat canon too much in fics. Likely? Unlikely? Whatever. These are all flights of our own imagination anyway, so as long as the story's well-told and not too ridiculous, I'll give it a shot.

I like Rayne, Malnara (yes, I'm a hopeless romantic), Wash resurrection fics (eagerly awaiting the next Connecting Flight!), and humor, though I don't limit myself to those categories. Character death fics won't scare me off, but I do prefer to be warned first. Angst, darkfics, mushy or PWP-- usually depends on my mood at the time.

I'm not all that fond of River/Mal, to be honest; IMHO Mal would feel far too protective of River as both a member of his crew and a formerly defenseless woman (in the first few eps at least, definitely not post-Serenity) to easily start seeing her as a desirable female. But I will read M/R, sometimes. Not much into Tamcest (EWWWWWWWWW!) or femmeslash either. (I'll occasionally read maleslash, but I don't take it too seriously.) I'm not exactly fond of OCs either; unless VERY carefully handled they can so easily wind up Mary Sues. (Don't take it as a criticism of anyone here. It's more of a reflection of my few attempts at OCs in fanfic.) And huge multi-part stories can scare me away, as many never get finished... or I just drift away before they're done. If it's something really good though, I'll keep going. (What was the name of that 26-part Wash-lives fic? Sorry, I'm feeling too tired and sick to double-check now. It was fantastic though.)

But... to each their own. That's the fun of huge fanfic archives-- there's something for everyone. And once in a while, I find an idea I love that I never would have thought of myself...

(For the moment, it's off for some ice cream for my feverish head and my raw and aching throat, and then to bed for an early doctor's trip tomorrow. Summer colds suck. Hope this made sense, sorry if it didn't.)





one of the FORSAKEN: We aim to burn!

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Friday, August 31, 2007 5:01 PM

DANNIISUPERNOVA


I can take it or leave it. A really well written Rayne is okay by me. It doesn't squick me, but a lot of the time I just can't get into it. Don't know what it is. As in all pairing debates, I refer to my signature.

I do like Mal/River (depending on how it is written) but right this second I'm going to have to go with NBZ that it would be more interesting to see a platonic situation or a one-sided thing. More realistic ya know? And lately I've been very addicted to realism and only susceptable to bouts of fluff. (But fluff can happen in real life.)

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 2:21 PM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHeroOfWilliamtown:
I don't see it that hard to imagine. I mean if you had to listen to the various thoughts of the crew all day hanging around with Jayne would be relaxing. He would probably like her because she can actually beat him up and that sets her apart from most girls i'd conjure.




Uh, why would that be relaxing? He's a crude man-ape-gone-wrong-thing. And Jayne doesn't like what he doesn't understand. I don't think he'd like hanging around with someone who could beat him up, either. Jayne likes his whores; he wouldn't want to be around someone who could whip his ass.

That's my view on that. I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Okay, rant is over.



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:13 PM

MOBBEX


You are better at dying
Quote:

And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?


Thank god ! Do you mind if I use this quote in my sig?

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 3:58 AM

PLATONIST


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:




That's my view on that. I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Okay, rant is over.





Bump!
Finally, someone says what we've all been thinking... kind of like Jayne

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:00 AM

TINADOLL


Well. A girl can dream.

Besides- who's to say what direction Joss was to head the stories in. He might have killed off Jayne in the second season- who knows (Perish the thought) but we didn't expect Wash dying did we? So lets not speculate that.


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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 7:20 AM

MAL4PREZ


I have to say that as much as I don't like Rayne and really don't like the Firefly love-boat scenario, I do appreciate that the point of fanfic is for people to make what they want of this lovely verse. The argument that Joss didn't intend for something to happen can actually be taken as the best reason to write it - ie, perhaps the only way fans can ever experience Rayne is through fanfic.

It seems like there should be a fantasy fic classification or something. I mean, like PWP has a clear purpose which has nothing to do with character arcs or themes or canon realism. In a way, romance/ship fics are similar - they (generally speaking) aren't out to explore the complex issues that Joss wove into the show. Romance fics are for purely fun escapism, and if they're not perfectly in character, so what? Really. Maybe some fan is having a bad week and wants a few minutes of imagining Jayne as a big cuddly teddy bear - what's *so* wrong with that?

I guess the only thing wrong, for me, is when the writer gets all righteous and demands that more people read and more people comment and no one ever critically question what they're doing...

OK, I've lost my point. Stopping now.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:01 PM

PLATONIST


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
I have to say that as much as I don't like Rayne and really don't like the Firefly love-boat scenario, I do appreciate that the point of fanfic is for people to make what they want of this lovely verse. The argument that Joss didn't intend for something to happen can actually be taken as the best reason to write it - ie, perhaps the only way fans can ever experience Rayne is through fanfic.

-----------------------------------------------


And, of course, I completely agree.

But, by the same argument, I had to defend his' or her's right to say otherwise.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:10 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:


It seems like there should be a fantasy fic classification or something.



i don't know who maintains the board - but i firmly believe the blue sun room should be an AREA - with seperate rooms for types of stuff. i realise that a lot of writers don't like their work to be simply classified - we all admire whedon for his genre busting after all - but still... it would be useful for those with specific tastes (or a sudden whim) to be able to pic from FireFluff/FireFly/Ship/Slash and caboodal. ALSO and quite importantly - google searches could hit here more easily - attracting new folk to the verse - be it lovers of maverick, bonanza, sci-fi, again with the fluff, etc. even - deep sigh - scratches stubble with bazooka - rayne. gawd help us. I'm with RivenFlan on that one.

some kind of a furnace.

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:16 PM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Mobbex:
You are better at dying
Quote:

And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?


Thank god ! Do you mind if I use this quote in my sig?



Not at all, Mobbex. Go right ahead.



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Friday, September 7, 2007 12:20 PM

RIVERFLAN


Thanks for the complement, if it was meant as a complement, Platonist. Though that description suprises me, seeing as all the people around me that have seen Firefly/Serenity describe me as Kaylee/River, or like River was pre-Acadamy.

Oh well. You learn something new every day.

And sorry if I don't have a reconizeable point- I tend to do that .



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Friday, September 7, 2007 2:39 PM

MOBBEX


Done! *cheers*

EDIT: yes, I like adding unreasonably large images to my sigs


I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

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Monday, September 10, 2007 5:39 AM

REAVERMAN


I have no real problem with Rayne if the author can pull it off. Unfortunately, 99 percent of the time, they can't. At least not up to my standards (i'm picky like that). I've found that most fics featuring a River pairing just aren't very good. There are a couple Mal/River ones that I thought were decent, but they were the exception to the rule.

I generally like the really uncommon pairings like Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Zoe, or Wash/Anyone-but-Zoe mainly because of the novelty value, but also because there have been some good ones that i've read.

Also, I like Mal/Inara if it's still in that snarky pre-romance stage (otherwise, it's just not that interesting). For a really good story featuring (though not revolving around) really good snarky Mal/Inara, you should check out ScrewtheAlliance's story arc. His fics "Kaylee's Lament" (28 chapters), "The Treasure of Lei Fong Wu" (90 chapters), and "Unfinished Business" (in progress, currently 20 chapters) are horrendously long, but incredibly well written, with the most in-character, humorous portrayals of the BDHs I've seen outside the show and BDM.

[img] [/img]

"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!

Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"


- from the song "Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:13 PM

DANNIISUPERNOVA


I used to like Rayne (when i was a brand new, pink cheeked Browncoat) and had only seen the BDM. Now, I just don't see it at all. I read a few fics and while they were well written, they just didn't grab me. The only aspect of that pairing I would ever slag is the sometimes rudeness of the shippers. I mean, it's just fanfic.

I much prefer Jayne and River interaction that's just them being them. It never fails to crack me up. A lot of the time it's the same with Mal and River (but that's just because I haven't found a really good, believable Mal/River yet. )

And even more then that I like independant!River. Like a big story of her developing post BDM would be just delicious with no pairing or only hints of pairing.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:04 PM

PLATONIST


If you're looking for a fic that portrays River independant of "any ships" and empowered by her own potential try "Broken Wings" by Leiasky.

It is post Miranda and IMHO very close to Joss's vision for who and what this character is and what she will be capable of.

It is a sequel, but starts here:

http://fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=17638

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:25 AM

RIVERFLAN


Mobbex: Would you mind too terribly if I stole your sig pic for my custom Avatar? That pic is really cool. I'd appreciate it .



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:36 PM

MOBBEX


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Mobbex: Would you mind too terribly if I stole your sig pic for my custom Avatar? That pic is really cool. I'd appreciate it .



Oh absolutely not! Go for it!


I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

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Monday, September 17, 2007 3:44 PM

RIVERFLAN


Done! *cheers!*

Edit: Cool. All of my previous entries have gotten my new avatar! I didn't know that would happen.

Thanks!



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Monday, September 17, 2007 5:27 PM

MOBBEX


Very cool indeed! May I ask how you did it?


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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:05 PM

RIVERFLAN


First of all, I did this with Jasc Paint Shop Pro.

I copied your sig pic, croped River's face*, and resized it (50x50 pixels, I think).

Then I surfed the web for a leopard print pic, downloaded it, croped part of it and resized that (60x60 pixels) so the spots wouldn't get miniscule. That was my background.

Then I copied and pasted the River pic on the leopard print, and used the soften option on the retouch operation around the edges.

Voila! There you have it!

If you want more details, let me know. I'm just trying to keep it simplified for you non-geek type people

*Crop is when you cut out part of a pic, for those none-grapic-geek people


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Days to remember:
June 23- Browncoat Day!
Sept. 19- Talk Like A Pirate Day
Sept. 20- Captian Mal's birthday

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:42 PM

MOBBEX


Pretty! Me, I'm more of a photoshop guy. For some reason it had never occured to me that I could use it to create shiny new avatars... Call it a brain blockage or whatever. I guess I ought to give it a shot!


I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

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Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:32 PM

MOBBEX



So I did give it a shot, and here's what came out of it. What do you think? I had a case of spookiness

EDIT: Did I mention I like big pictures?

EDIT#2: This avatar's too big though.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 2:56 PM

RIVERFLAN


I like it! You are right, it's a bit too big, but surely you have a re-size option somewhere?

for no apparent reason



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Days to remember:
June 23- Browncoat Day!
Sept. 19- Talk Like A Pirate Day
Sept. 20- Captian Mal's birthday

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:09 PM

RIVERFLAN


I have a shiny new sig now! Made it myself, I did. If anyone want to know how, just say so and I'll tell

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:



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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:26 PM

WYTCHCROFT





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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:13 PM

MOBBEX


I abso-friggin-lutely want to know how you did that!

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:48 PM

RIVERFLAN


That's a really cool pic, Wytchcroft! You mind if I steal it?

Now to answer Mobbex's question:

Just so you know, I did this on Jasc Animation Shop and on Jasc Paint Shop Pro (they're cousin programs ).

First, I had to make the pics. So I took part of the background in this pic I found online (I mainly use Google Images)



croped it, and resized it so it was a nice, even number (because I'm weird like that). That forms the background.

Next, I took the Serenity logo, copied+pasted it onto the background as a seperate layer, and erased around the edges.

Then I saved that, then started filling in that empty space with my favorite quotes.

I saved them all, then copied+pasted them into frames in a new animation shop file. Then I added a "fade" transition to each and every frame, and adjusted the amout of time you see certain frames so you could read the longer quotes.

Then I saved the whole animation, added it to my Photobucket account so it would show up.

Took me a while, but I finally got it done

I'd show more example pics, but I deleted them all, and I wouldn't get them exactly right the second time.

Why I didn't make a slideshow is because they only let you have ten pics, and I had 27 quotes

BTW, how did this thread get diverted from rayne to grapics? Just wondering (and if it's my fault, blame it on one of my other selves! lol )


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:



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Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:05 PM

MOBBEX


Probably my fault to be truthful. I started it all with my sig request

I wonder if there's an Adobe equivalent to Jasc Animation Shop. I'm gonna go and do some research on that. Thx for the detailed reply !

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Friday, September 28, 2007 11:54 AM

WYTCHCROFT


use all the pic's i send ya!:)

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Friday, September 28, 2007 1:50 PM

RIVERFLAN


You do that, Mobbex. I hope you find one

And you're welcome. Not a problem to fill in some of my shiny browncoat friends

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:



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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 6:12 AM

CRYSTALKEI


a fab person (elidyce) wrote a little essay over at LJ about why river/jayne could work...check it out here: " http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/909582.html?view=67289
74#t6728974


Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:18 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.


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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:44 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.



OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!


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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:15 PM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:

Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.



OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!



Yes, absolutely!


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Thursday, October 11, 2007 8:07 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:

Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.



OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!



Yes, absolutely!



Feel free to have at it. Not much of a writer here. I'm more of the graphically inclined type.




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Thursday, October 11, 2007 8:50 AM

ROMANCEGURU


Quote:

Feel free to have at it. Not much of a writer here. I'm more of the graphically inclined type.


I’ll mull the idea over (definitely would want to do this one justice!) and I’ll credit you if anything comes of it. : )

If anyone else is struck with sudden inspiration, go on ahead.


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Friday, October 12, 2007 2:49 AM

GYPSY15


I am glad someone is bringing this pairing into the light of day. I don't read a lot of fanfic but I enjoy the Firefly universe and it's talented fic writers! I find pairing Jayne and River disturbing and not feasible in the current Firefly verse. River is a traumatized child despite her survival skills and violent tendencies. Jayne is an adult male, many years her senior and has lived the life of a mercenary and who knows what else. Jayne is also a morally conscious man. His interactions with Book prove that, although he doesn't always live up to his beliefs, he believes nonetheless. It seems out of character for him to encourage any romantic relationship with a girl as young as River! For him and the rest of the crew, that would be akin to child molestation or taking advantage of someone who cannot legally be responsible for themselves. I skip over all Rayne centered fanfic or any fanfic that even hints toward a Rayne relationship. I know that it probably has a lot to with having kids of my own and being in the over 35 age range. It's too scary for me to read. I love my Jayne and I like his inner moral conflicts because of how he feels about his new "family" on Serenity. I don't think Jayne would initiate or encourage anything with River for fear of losing his family there and without a doubt, being thrown out of an airlock by Mal, Simon, Zoe et al. River needs Jayne and the adults in her life to protect her and encourage her healing. I know that doesn't sound romantic but in the current Firefly verse, that's how the characters were developed so far. I hope a sequel or a continuation of the series brings potential for more age appropriate romantic pairings!

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:18 PM

ALBIO


i think badkarma00 made a believable rayne. it took him getting blown up to finally admit he liked her

as for the crazy girl needing time ya I would wait a few years after bdm for rayne. But i have a lot of confidence in river given time she could control her power Jayne likes power. They tend to spend long stints in the black Jayne would need a women. And they do say theirs a thin line between love and hate. Plus really few man wouldn't run for the hills after getting all the information on riv.

personally id like to see more rayne were river uses some mental muscle on Jayne to get him into bed. or its a con to help out their family and Jaynes left wanting but not getting any
but I'm evil, evil man

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Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:41 AM

STEAMER


Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Why Rayne...when it can pour?

Well, not really, but why are there so many stories that involve River and Jayne getting together?! I'm trying to understand people's fascination with putting those two as a couple.

Is it a case of "If you ain't with the one you love, love the one you're with" or is there some kind of deep psychological meaning behind putting a psychic teenager with a late-thirties/early-forties mercenary?

I can kinda see that it's sorta funny to put somone who can hear all of a person's thoughts with someone whose thoughts no one would want to hear. But seriously....WHY?!



Quote:

Originally posted by Steamer:
I've been asking myself the same question for years. I think it's just because they're the only two on the ship who aren't already paired, which, to me, makes it even more ridiculous. Personally, I despise Rayne. In fact, I can't even read a lot of fanfic because so much of it either is Rayne or turns out to be. Just thinking about it makes me sick, especially since there's so much more to fandom than who's sleeping with whom, and since Jayne is more than twice River's age and there's canonically nothing between them but animosity. How the hell do you fall in love with someone who repeatedly schemes to kill, maim, or otherwise remove you from his space and doesn't even apologise?



Quote:

Originally posted by AngelintheBlack:
I dont much understand why there is so much Rayne if your looking at it from that view.

Some of the stories do follow that "Love the one your with" scenario, while others play with her "reading" his mind and not being opposed to what she sees, and the yet others play with the "every one else has someone and this was the one that was left."

I think the reason for there being so much Rayne is, theres no real need to add a new main character. They can play with the cannon pairings (Mal/ Inara, Simon/Kaylee, Zoe/Wash) and just make a logical leap and make Jayne and River a couple. That leaves them fewer options but if thats what they want to run with thats up to them.
I much prefer the stories where the writes introduce new characters that may or may not be a romantic relation for river or any other character. It gives more possibilities to play with and more chance for a plot to become truely developed and stantch its reader.



Quote:

Originally posted by Jane0904:
I write Rayne. Not only Rayne, but as part of my Maya series. And the truth is, I didn't intend to. When I started writing fanfic, I thought the idea of the merc and the assassin was ridiculous, and resolved never to write anything like that.

But it crept up on me. In my developing world, I had them start out becoming friends-ish. After all, River is the ultimate human weapon, and if nothing else Jayne appreciates a good gun. In the end I let it happen slowly, naturally, with a lot of obstacles, not least of which was Simon shooting Jayne because he thought he'd slept with his sister.

I have to say that people who automatically discount a story just because of a particular pairing might be missing out on something good. Bad writing is one thing, but give a decent tale a shot - you never know, you might enjoy it.

And as for age ... so?



Quote:

Originally posted by WakeupSoon:
Personally, I don't like pure Rayne stories. If its something that happened over the course of time, seemingly naturally, and in the background of another story I don't mind it. But if a story is pure Rayne *shudder* s'not my thing ..



Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm with Steamer. In the "everyone-must-be-paired" approach to fanfiction, River and Jayne MUST be a couple. No matter that the canon characters have to be completely altered to make it happen in any kind of believable way.

Also, I think there's often a Mary Sue-ness to the pairing. Writer/readers who identify with River and crush on Jayne can use a River Sue to act out their fantasy relationship. "Girl Tames Wild Man and Finds his Softer Side." Classic bodice-ripper plot. And not un-interesting. I like that kind of story fine, I just can't stomach the hack job it does on Joss's complex and wonderful characters.



Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
I’m with Mal4prez, River romances are wildly popular; her character has cult status brought on by the BDM. She’s a favorite of fans. I've seen her paired with any and all crew members, especially Mal and Jayne. It’s an easy set up and it doesn’t create much in the way of obstacles for her or the writer. She just reads their minds and finds out they’re ACTUALLY in love with her (because everyone loves River, fans and crewmembers, alike, total Marysueness) and she takes it from there. My suggestion is, don’t read it if you don’t like it, it’s just fanfic.



Quote:

Originally posted by Katesfriend:
I try to be open minded about other people's ideas because I know I certainly don't have all the answers to the human equation. But the biggest sex organ in the human body is the brain. If two people don't have something to be compatible with on an intellectual level, they aren't going to have much - if at all - any kind of sexual attraction that would stand the test of time. That's just the way we're wired. And all the wishing and character reinventing in the world won't change that. But if you want to write Rayne, I won't dis you for it, but I won't agree with it either.



Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Oh, but Steamer, have you read no bodice-rippers? Men who want to kill, control and if at all possible destroy you are rendered irresistibly sexy. No, never read one, just heard the inane conversations that follow. Wish I had a "delete" key.

In real life, the phrase "Also, I can kill you with my brain" is not immediately followed by "and take your psycological clothes off, sexy man-ape-gone-wrong-thing." One of the first fics I ever stumbled on was this type of Rayne--I wasn't warned.

mal4prez also pretty much nailed it. The General Mary-Sue Law of Fanfic decrees (in addition!) that the most unsuitable characters will be paired no matter if they are elsewhere paired already, biologically incompatible or even dead etc. It's about pairing. dopples...you catch my drift. eeeehwwwyggghg. :upchuck: I like warning lables when and if I read fanfic.

I'm not a fan of Maliver either, or whatever Mal + River is known as. They're the same kind of crazy, but not the same kind of intimate.

dmaanlileiltt's: this should really be a thread. Clearly much sentiment.



Quote:

Originally posted by BlueEyedBrigadier:
Honestly, it’s a $64,000 question in the Firefly fandom…at least for some fans, honestly. I know I have personally struggled with an effective way to convey WHY I like the idea of River and Jayne hooking up when I have discussed the concept with others, which of course can be taken as evidence that the whole ship is extremely fanciful and just an imposition of Harlequin romance plotlines onto Joss’ magnificent sandbox that is the Big Damn Series and Big Damn Movie. I personally feel that it’s because their relationship CAN be perceived as just as complicated as any of the other ‘canon’ pairings. I say ‘can be’ instead of ‘is’ from the fact that Jayne does act in a mainly antagonistic manner toward River other than the odd moment or two that have been assigned meaning…which admittedly means as much AGAINST the pairing as it does FOR.

There’s a number of given reasons I’ve seen for having River and Jayne get together romantically, ranging from the mentioned “River’s now a living weapon and Jayne idolizes weaponry in all forms” (which is rather shallow, since River’s not really shown to be super-eager to bust out her combat skills and Jayne’s supposed appreciation would only stretch to a part of River’s overall self instead of the whole) to “Jayne’s straightforward in thoughts in actions, so River’s gotta appreciate that lots! (I.e. Jayne doesn’t have much subtlety or a habit of thinking one thing and saying another, so it’s HAS to cut down on her mental confusion). And all of them kinda fail the realistic human behaviour version of the Turing test, as has been noted in previous comments….Jayne loves weapons BUT ones he can use or understand effectively, so River would be way too random until control is gained; River’s inability to properly filter external thoughts is shown in the series, but Jayne being linear and uncomplicated would be a temporary respite and doesn’t really prevent him from thinking thoughts that are unpleasant to River’s sensibilities

But really? EVERY long-term relationship – potential or established – in Firefly/Serenity can have the same arguments applied to it, so the confusion and disdain for Rayne (heh…rhymed!) isn’t lacking in company if one uses the same romantic Turing test guidelines…even the Washburne marriage was shown to be imperfect (which, IMO, is how it should be). The series presented 3 relationships – Simon and Kaylee’s adventures in flirting, Mal and Inara UST tango, and the Washburnes’ “old” married couple routine – and all three showed signs of incompatible elements that barely got fleshed out that would cause just as much conflict between the involved parties as it would logically with River and Jayne:


Now, said statement relating to the stability of the 3 couples being less than guaranteed is not meant to excuse the idea of River and Jayne developing feelings for each other as being just as rational as a Guild Companion falling for an ex-rebel army NCO or a 26th century Doogie Howser having romantic sparks for a mechanical savant who ostensibly embodies Rim culture, but as an attempt to indicate that even the relationship with the most stability – Wash and Zoë – possessed factors that could have lead to some angst and drama had the series run longer and the plotlines travelled in certain directions. The concept of River and Jayne falling in love – or just deciding to be bunk buddies during the transits between destinations – is something that’s really something engineered in the fan community….but I think plausible.

I admittedly used to love stories where River and Jayne hooked up during the time of the series, if only for the creativity of the author in how these two started something with each other, but I have come to see that any chance of a Tam-Cobb romantic pairing comes from the two of them becoming friends first in the wake of the Miranda Wave and the crew having to evolve in their roles to cope with the loss of two important crewmates. It wouldn’t be instantaneous and it certainly wouldn’t be anything resembling smooth, but I think they would have found something to build a deeper understanding on; elements like the age discrepancy – 15 to 25 years seems like a reasonable range estimate, accounting for things like increased physical and mental stresses on Jayne from a career as a mercenary – and River’s skill sets (she’s a super-genius and either telepathic or empathic with the capability of calculating probability in relation to event outcomes, so I dunno how many people out of the total human population of 70+ planets and moons can match her intellectually) would need to be explored a lot to make something like Rayne comprehensible.

I guess, in the end, I don’t think I can really sum up why Rayne intrigues me so much other than to fall back on clichés and thin justifications…at least not to suddenly make all the haters and fence sitters change sides. Maybe it’s the possibilities inherent in having the embodiments of theoretical and practical learning helping to round each other out, or a romanticized view of having the crew’s two outsiders finding kindred spirits in each other or simply a sense of disbelief that anyone bar another Academy student can really understand River in the ways that most people indicate are required for a functional long-term relationship that make me lean toward what is admittedly at best a May-December romance.

Now that I think of it, maybe the words of a fellow Browncoat and Rayne shipper Elidyce/Dyce, who – I feel personally – has summed up the inherent conundrum of River and Jayne in a much better way. Check out her informative and well-structured essay supporting Rayne at http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/909582.html, since it basically covers all the arguments against Rayne while presenting what I perceive to be logical counterpoints to said topics of debate.



Quote:

Originally posted by gripper:
I admit it IS a cool concept in an "opposites attract-we never saw THAT comming" kind of way.
It DOES make sense if one considers Jayne having hidden depths beyond an external "West Texas Badman" persona.
Hell, during the scene in "Serenity",when River was in "Kill Mal" mode;and Jayne attempted to control her by a body-lock(as opposed to his usual "Hit hard,first and in the head" tactic(right before she hammerfisted his testicles)I figured him getting soft on her.
Or,maybe I just like the idea of the outlaw biker type winding up with River-either as a sisterly/daughter type of affection or a serious adult relationship...one of you DID remark on his appreciation of fine weaponry.



Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
It looks like I opened a can of worms and that everybody has an opinion on the matter.

I didn't mean that it's a horrible thing that should never have been concieved, it's just a bit cliched even though it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.



Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Well, I for one have never understood the APPEAL of Rayne beyond the "never-woulda-seen-THAT-coming" angle.

Why are reasons that people LIKE it, see it AS canon-compatible? Or if they don't, why do people insist it's canon-compatible?

Another question: How much romantic/sexual River-fic was there prior to Serenity? Did it take off after the Movie?



*WHEW*

AnotherSky, I started to read one Raynefic on LJ, years ago. I wasn't too impressed with the idea of the pairing even then, but I still gave it a try to see if I could read the rest of the story. I couldn't. It was sickening.

J.K. Rowling said it all during a fan chat a few years ago: "Every character does not need to get together with every other character." She was talking a little more about the pairing craze that proliferates in all fandom, which I mind a great deal. Who cares who's getting ripped limb from limb by Reavers as long as Jayne and River are happy together? :P (Wow, sarcasm, that's original.)



River's fixing
Book is balking
Preacher man
Just keeps walking
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats

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