Fanfic Inara - anti-feminist? by AgentRouka

Yep, I've noticed a lot of these. >_> And yeah, some of them I can see the anti-feminism. Though I can believe the Alliance and Guild are corrupt (if not evil) because big organizations tend to be.

But the running away point brings up something that I've wanted to discuss for a while now.

I don't think Inara actually ran away.

Rather, I think her decision in Heart of Gold was based on Mal's indiscretion with Nandi, and in her grief-stricken state (Nandi dead, Mal cheating on her in a way), she interprets the start of Mal's speech about "ifs and maybes" as the beginnings of a rejection.

Later, in a calmer mood, she must have realized that Mal was attempting the exact opposite. I get the distinct impression that she goes through with leaving in an attempt to get Mal to confess to feeling something for her again, in addition to whatever other reasons there are. Examples: 1) Objects in Space, "I'm a big girl, just tell me" and 2) Those Left Behind comic, "(Tag) You're it, Captain."

Mal obviously never does, so she shrugs and goes her own way until the rescue from the Operative in the movie.

It's out of character, doesn't make sense for Inara to be running away because she's afraid of someone else's feelings, less that she's afraid of her own. That's a common perception that does bother me. If she was so afraid of hearing Mal confess his feelings, why would she interrupt him, then in the next episode, the comics, and the movie, be trying to hear it again?

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Friday, January 2, 2009 3:03 PM

PLATONIST

Disenfranchised Guild member or not, I like Inara portrayed as the strong independent woman that Mal is obviously fascinated with. And you’re right; most writers don’t do this very well. But I also include teacher, parent, cook, mentor, retired Guild Member, smuggler, and or any of these combinations as feminist as any others as long as it is her choice and she is self-actualized in such role.

Feminist (gosh, I dislike labels) or not, Serenity is the place she calls home. It's her choice to stay or go, and it’s Mal that affords her that freedom when others don't. That's her attraction to him and not so hard to understand:) Recently, I’ve come to view Inara’s leaving in HoG as her NOT running away from love or family but her choosing to leave to protect them from the fallout of what her secret may mean to Mal and the crew eventually.

I can't speak for others, but fanfic that explores these issues are my very favorite. Oh and I don’t enjoy either one paired up with a Marysue or Martysue, including any Crewsues.

Joss says they’re perfect for each other and that’s good enough for me because it gives me hope that he has more story to tell like in the form of a sequel, hopefully this year 09!

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Friday, January 2, 2009 6:24 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Interesting list - as a scribbler i don't know how well (or not) i may have avoided these pit-falls, certainly Inara is a hard character to 'catch'...
Even officially - look at the comics, the portrayal of Inara has improved each time.

As for fan-fic in general, sure - but all the heroes get turned into cartoons sometimes and i'd have to say that Jayne suffers worst.

What shocks me is how irrelevant these charaters some times seem in the fast-food fic and go of 'pairing' stuff, you see the same actions, dialogue and narrative replayed endlessly with just a name change from Inara to Scully to Sara to Rogue to Buffy to Romana to whoever - insert fandom of choice -.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 11:13 PM

Wow! There are a LOT of different interpretations as to why Inara left! That surprises me.

My own personal one is: Inara left for exactly the reason she implies - ties. But not because she is afraid of them, she simply chooses herself first, and it's a beautiful choice. She has spent a year on a boat with a guy who has this weird schism in his head between what Inara does and who she supposedly is, as if it isn't her choice again and again and again to be a Companion. There is a world of heartbreak lurking in Mal's problem with her job and I think it's that most of all that keeps her pulling away from his advances and ultimately leaving.

I just really wish the movie had explored this angle instead of creating an artificial focus on Mal asking her to stay.

I don't think Inara would be in a position to consider giving up her work before Mal ever accepts it, accepts loving her in spite of it. That's the point I see them working towards in the series.

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
But I also include teacher, parent, cook, mentor, retired Guild Member, smuggler, and or any of these combinations as feminist as any others as long as it is her choice and she is self-actualized in such role.

I'm not saying that these occupations are unfeminist, but it IS rather an easy way out 99% of the time. Can we admit that Inara might not actually be fullfilled being Serenity's cook? It's realistically quite likely that she wouldn't. Of al of these, criminal mysterminding strikes me as the most likely one she would enjoy, and yet it's rarely chosen. Inara is written as confined to the ship.

And all of this always to avoid dealing with a more complicated female sexuality. Inara must be pure for Mal, so anything is better than honestly dealing with her job. This irks me immensely.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 11:42 PM

My impression is that Mal and Inara are a rather unique fictional couple in that they fight a lot more and a lot more viciously than any other pairing I've ever seen. He calls Inara a whore on a regular basis (and yeah, I flinch too). Love hate relationship taken to an extreme. Put them in a room together and it's an explosive train wreck.

That aspect is actually what makes me like their dynamic so much; it gets raw and feels real. There's layers upon layers in what they're saying to each other, how they care but don't want to care as they rip each other apart with insults and the occasional backhanded compliment.

It's just completely fascinating and quite often hilarious, especially because they're both strong enough to bounce back quickly from whatever acid the other throws at them. They're very equal, when it comes down to it, and that's how I like to see them portrayed.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:29 AM

VERASAMUELS

At Dragon Con last Aug/Sept, Nathan revealed Inara's big secret. Because it's so huge, I'm not going to write it out loud, but knowing it informs a LOT of how Inara behaves and why she at least maintains the wall between her and Mal.

P.M. me if you absolutely have to know. I'll tryst you not to go squealing it [actually, I haven't come across anyone making it more public yet].

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:35 AM

PLATONIST

I agree that Inara leaves because of the emotional "ties" that have been created with Serenity and its crew, but it's NOT a selfish act entirely; as she tells Mal "It's something I should have done long ago, for the both of us"
She doesn't want to go and that is why Joss was able to play the "tell me you want me to stay” because you except me as "the Companion with a horrible secret" angle in both Those Left Behind and Serenity. Her leaving was painful, it affected Mal greatly, and it only reminded her of what she couldn't have, but in a way she sacrifices her own freedom so Mal can go on his own freedom journey on Serenity, hence we see her as the lonely teacher on a crap ass moon.

I see this more as the essence of her character as a Companion more than anything else. In Shindig, a similar scenario, at the end when she offers to be Ath's personal Companion for Mal's life is her willing to sacrifice her own freedom. She is NOT motivated by protecting her job as she makes a sexual servitude contract with Ath in order to spare Mal's life.

And as much as Inara may rely monetarily on her work and enjoy her role as a Companion, I think "Better Days" illustrated how sexually unfulfilled Inara really is, feminist or not. But, we already knew that because she is in love with Mal:) and one can't disregard Joss's interpretation of his own character.

Post BDM, I can see Inara involved in planning the heists, maybe playing a backup role, but not as a major gun toting Ninja. She doesn't need to be anything more than she is, others fulfill that role. Plus Mal would absolutely die inside if something happened to her during a heist. That’s the part of his life he doesn’t want her to become involved with because it is the part that he is the most ashamed of.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 1:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

And as much as Inara may rely monetarily on her work and enjoy her role as a Companion, I think "Better Days" illustrated how sexually unfulfilled Inara really is, feminist or not. But, we already knew that because she is in love with Mal:) and one can't disregard Joss's interpretation of his own character.

This may not be a popular sentiment, but I am not a huge fan of where Joss was going with Inara, either. I think he has a mixed record when it comes to portraying feminism in his characters. Often it's awesome, absolutely awesome, but sometimes it's not. River in the movie is barely a character, he can tend toward replacing emotional responsibility with physical prowness (Hello, Zoe.), everyone was down on Simon instead of telling Kaylee to grow up and stop whining. And this whole thing with Inara gave me the same creepy crawlies that it would in fanfiction. It disappointed me.

That's why I tend to ignore those aspects of Joss's extra-work when it comes to Inara. He's squandering very interesting opportunities for.. what? Making sure her entire life revolves around Mal enough? Ugh.

As for Inara's secret, I know it, and while it's not perfect, I can deal with it. But it's not realy something she would need to protect the crew from. I do not think it would be selfish to put herself before Mal's feelings. He rarely does the same for her, so why should she? Self-preservation is not a vice, yet in female characters it is viewed as a crime.

The scenario with Atherton, on the other hand, didn't disturb me because it was less about Mal and more about what Inara is willing to tolerate. I'm sure she would have done the same for another person about to be skewered, AND she may have had a backup plan ready.

I just dislike the interpretations that place all of Inara's decisions in relation to Mal.

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Post BDM, I can see Inara involved in planning the heists, maybe playing a backup role, but not as a major gun toting Ninja. She doesn't need to be anything more than she is, others fulfill that role. Plus Mal would absolutely die inside if something happened to her during a heist. That’s the part of his life he doesn’t want her to become involved with because it is the part that he is the most ashamed of.

That's why I said criminal masterminding, not robbing banks and toting guns. I think she would be great when teamed up with Simon. Simon's plan for Ariel was brilliant and no bloodshed would have been required had Jayne not gotten greedy. That's the kind of thing I mean. :)

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 1:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
The title of this is a bit exaggerated, of course. But the subject generally interests me.

In a great number of fanfics dealing with Inara and Mal, the following things happen:

- The Guild is Evil
- Inara really doesn't like her job
- Inara has never really had good sex
- Sex with Mal is a REVELATION
- Inara cries over something Mal does and he doesn't find out
- a crew member tells Inara to get over Her Problem, while no one does the same to Mal
- Inara is terribly sorry for "running away"
- Inara abandons her profession or is unfairly kicked out
- Inara equates the Guild with the Alliance
- Inara has a romantic rival for Mal because she "pushed him away"
- Inara doesn't really like her fancy clothes or affluent life, and dresses in "Mal-appropriate" clothing
- Inara becomes the ship's cook or teacher
- Inara has no family
- Mal outwits Inara and leaves her speechless
- Mal orders Inara around and she "swallows her pride"
- Mal's insults are treated as out of his control, comparable to Simon's faux-pas

And so on.

Hmm, nice post. I always like it when people distill things.

Maybe will join in this discussion a bit later when I have time.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 5:20 AM

STINKINGROSE

Quote:
Originally posted by VeraSamuels:
At Dragon Con last Aug/Sept, Nathan revealed Inara's big secret. Because it's so huge, I'm not going to write it out loud, but knowing it informs a LOT of how Inara behaves and why she at least maintains the wall between her and Mal.

P.M. me if you absolutely have to know. I'll tryst you not to go squealing it [actually, I haven't come across anyone making it more public yet].

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

LALALALALALALA...NOT LISTENIIIIIINNNNNG!!!

I remember reading somewhere that TPTB would not start revealing secrets and backstory until they'd given up, and we've already been told by one that the Mysterious Vial did indeed officially contain something that would kill anyone Inara had sex with.

I refuse to give up hope!!! Do not tempt me vile... tempter.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 6:15 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Post BDM, I can see Inara involved in planning the heists, maybe playing a backup role, but not as a major gun toting Ninja. She doesn't need to be anything more than she is, others fulfill that role. Plus Mal would absolutely die inside if something happened to her during a heist. That’s the part of his life he doesn’t want her to become involved with because it is the part that he is the most ashamed of.

That's why I said criminal masterminding, not robbing banks and toting guns. I think she would be great when teamed up with Simon. Simon's plan for Ariel was brilliant and no bloodshed would have been required had Jayne not gotten greedy. That's the kind of thing I mean. :)

I posted this over at another thread but I think it's a bit relevant here too:

"As to Inara as a petty thief, she would be a good one. Companions practice deception all the time and she's quick with a psychological read of a person and knows how to use her "assets" to get what she wants.

Add to that an ability to drive a hard bargain (see her negotiation with Mal in OOG about the rental price for the shuttle)and her ability to use words to get herself or the crew out of a jam using her wits (her TTJ rescue of Mal and Zoe for instance) I think she'd be an awesome but inexperienced petty thief (likely quickly remedied)"

As to Inara teaming up with Simon, they would be the masterminds of the 'Verse in a short while.

Just my humble opinion.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:43 AM

I didn't like Better Days much myself. Is it just me, or did Zoe seem kind of judgmental when she confronts Inara about her client and Mal? And I really didn't like how the end implies that Mal sabotaged the futures of his crew in order to keep them together. Way I see it, he'd let them go, just like he let Inara go, and justify it to himself that they'll be safer while he tries to continue to live the only life he knows.

Though the discussion about what they'll do with the riches is pretty funny.

Anyway. That scene in Better Days... I can't necessarily say that in Firefly Inara's life didn't already revolve around Mal. She bought passage on Serenity to try to find her own independence, and ended up with an overbearing tyrant of a captain who controls her professional life through where he takes the ship to look for his own work. And we all know that it really annoyed her, she fights against it and that makes her a strong willed feministic woman.

I think there is a difference between Inara the person and Inara the companion, just like there's one between and Mal the person and Mal the captain. The persons underneath the titles like each other, despite the disapproval of their surface identities. And as long as she continues to stand up for herself (which she does), I don't think that makes her less a feminist, any more than Mal's feelings weaken his resolve.

And even if that wasn't just her mind wandering during the meet with her client, I don't find it that disturbing that a liberated woman like her might fantasize about someone she's attracted to, even if he also annoys the hell out of her.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 5:37 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Great list. I do believe I've seen a fanfic for just about everything on you list (and I have probably been guilty of a few those myself). But that's what makes Inara a challenge in canoning her. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's an anti feminist movement, simply because most writers do not intentionally writer in an anti-feminist fashion. Speaking as someone who's written fanfic since she was fifteen (my god I'm getting old) and has had her share of many, horrific uncanon portrayals, it's hard as hell to write any strong female character with the right amount of balance. Too much one way and you've got a weepy damsel, too much the other way and she could go GI Jane on you. And when you address a pairing it is very easy to just make them a generic lovy dovey couple, blissfully in love or in traditional male/female roles instead of the couple that they actually are. It can be very hard to catch yourself too, in some fandoms readers may actually encourage the perfect life/fluff portrayal because the fandom demographic is less interested with realistic canoning and more so in reading a feel good RomCom. Whereas here at FFF.net, canoning is taken very seriously (which I am extremely grateful for because while RomCom/Fluff may bring in the praises and comments, canon writing is much more challenging and fulfilling imho) .

I think that Inara does enjoy her job, yet there are pros and cons of her occupation. It's obvious her career was chosen for her at a very young age, so on occasion she may have doubting moments, ie if a client treats her poorly (end of Shindig), however I think overall she prides herself and her position. She is very nurturing too, which seems to lend to being a companion. It's particularly apparent when she has her session with Fess Higgins, as she takes on a nurturing, teaching role with him, lying with him and teaching him about being a man, and that it's beyond just losing your virginity. She seems to enjoy being that kind of companion, it's possible different companions specialize in different aspects, and she tends to lean towards nurturer and teacher.

Now as for her never having great sex, that's entirely debatable. I have always thought that her sexual experience was at a young age, and making love was taught to her to be more or less of an art and union that was not to be a romantic extension. While she can certainly enjoy the sex she's being paid for, it lacks the emotion and passion one would feel with an individual they actually love because she was taught to not form an emotional attachment. I think Inara knows her Kama Sutra and has had her share of mind blowing sex, but she might not entirely feel fulfilled because she knows that sex between people in love is different than a liaison with a client, and that's what may help fuel her own fantasies. As for Mal being the object of said fantasies, I think that while they are very hot and cold, she muses about him because he is the exact opposite of her clients. He's different, he's rough around the edges, he's a little mysterious, and they have a good repartee when they aren't thinking the other is insufferable.

The guild isn't evil, however the flashbacks from OoG and her conversations make it easy to assume that the Guild is completely Pro-Alliance (as are most of her clients). In fact I believe that the early form of the Alliance is what legalized the sex trade and helped to form the Companion Guild, so there is heavy political bias and backing in the Guild itself. I think after the BDM she begins to doubt her ties and association with the Guild because her views have changed. She’s been through enough, and seen enough though of the dark side of the government to doubt her place as a Companion though, so it’s understandable. I do not however think she feels guilty for parting with the crew to teach at Madressa. She left by her own will, tried her hand at teaching at the House, but in the end of the BDM, it’s clear she’s more comfortable back home on Serenity. She may regret missing on some capers the crew had in her absence, but it was her choice.

As for Inara being unfairly kicked out of the Guild in lue of the Miranda video, I think it’s possible. As state above there is probably some politicking within the Guild since it is so Pro-Alliance. Now they may evaluate her and her actions and take away her registration, or they may tell her she gets off with a warning if she cuts off all ties with the offenders. I just felt it was an interesting facet to explore because Joss seems to be fascinated with the consequences of ones actions and Inara would have to have a period of growth herself before accepting the fact that she was no longer a Companion.

Inara does have a family (she’s mentioned a mother at least), however I feel that her family situation is strained as it contributed to her being schooled at such a young age as a companion. Being a companion isn’t a bad thing at all, it was just because of it she was disconnected from the family at such a young age, which is why Serenity’s crew is contenting for her, they help fill in her need for family. Because of the way Inara has mentioned her mother having a say in how she runs her affairs I’ve written her with a mother who was a former companion and who also holds a very affluent title (a long line of Saudi Royals) as well as estate in Sihnon. She’s focused on preserving the family name and line, and having her daughter go through the process of being a companion was apart of preparing Inara for taking on the title when she passed on. However Inara’s mother is emotionally distant and a woman that is much more feminist than her daughter (not in the good way), but that is to contrast with Inara herself as she has learned from her mother’s ways. She’s strong, and definitely carries some feminist attributes, however Inara is nurturing, emotionally available and has found that she doesn’t have to take the path her mother carved out for her. I think addressing Inara’s family is one of the best ways to develop her character, personally, because the family's choice to have her train as companion at such a young age defines who she is.

As for Mal/Inara, their relationship is always a tricky one, but it can be executed well. The problem is that too many people write Inara as insecure and submissive to Mal. She’s anything but. They need to have a middle ground to stand on in order for the pairing to work, and it can’t be all saccharine fluff. The reason they engage so well is their contrasts. I think the right Mal and Inara relationship has them very much so in love, but they haven’t changed the way they act towards one another. They still quarrel sometimes, but they’ve both learned to explain why they’re angry. Inara may get upset over something Mal does, however after calling him an idiot (and possibly threatening to kill him under her breath if what he’s doing doesn’t kill him) she’ll call him out on whatever he did. Mal can be an ass sometimes, and Inara in their relationship wouldn’t let that fly, and she definitely wouldn’t let him boss her around. While they might call one another bao-bei in a relationship, there’s still the teasing that they had before their relationship. My particular Inara and Mal tease one another often, though it’s a sign of affection and they also mock argue about things from time to time because that’s what defines their relationship. That back and forth, peppered with sarcasm and affection as well as their own contrasts that can complement them so well. That’s why Inara may dress down from time to time (to not attract as much attention or in fear of a silken thing getting ruined) however Mal likes the way she dresses, he is attracted to that contrast of his own browncoat dress and he wouldn’t have her start wearing ‘Mal appropriate clothing.’ And Inara herself enjoys dressing that way as well, in fact she does dress down in the episodes when she doesn’t have clients, but it’s still her highly orient influenced type of dress.

I can also see Inara in a teaching or mothering role post BDM because of the things I have listed above. She went to Madressa to teach, she likes the teaching and would enjoy playing that role on Serenity. Cooking is a wild card, I’ve made her adept at cooking, however it would be humorous to have her not fond of it, because of the fact that Companions don’t really have the need to know how to cook. I do NOT see her and Mal settling down immediately and/or suddenly having an unplanned pregnancy which results in the Reynolds-Serra Spawn. First off, I think long term commitment would scare them both silly (mine are finally comfortable with the notion of it after being together for a little over two years and going through a battery of ups and downs) and second, Inara is too smart to accidentally bare the fruit of Mal’s loins. Firefly is about the unconventional family unit, and I have explored the possibility of Inara taking in a child and adopting. I can see her taking in a little girl that is unwanted by the rest of the universe because of how she enjoys being teacher and nurturer as well as desires a relationship that she herself wasn’t able to have with her own mother. Of course Mal is not privy to the idea (for his own justifiable reasons or selfish ones) but I think going the unconventional parenting arc is something that Joss would do to explore her character’s past and many facets because she already bares a very mothering character but lacks that back story.

Wow, was that long enough? Lol apologies…

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's an anti feminist movement, simply because most writers do not intentionally writer in an anti-feminist fashion.

Oh, I wouldn't ascribe it to a movement, at all! Nor do I think that the women writing this are intentionally unfeminist. I don't think they really consider what they are writing, and the result worries me because it says a lot about how women view female characters and by extension, female human beings.

Quote:

Speaking as someone who's written fanfic since she was fifteen (my god I'm getting old) and has had her share of many, horrific uncanon portrayals, it's hard as hell to write any strong female character with the right amount of balance. Too much one way and you've got a weepy damsel, too much the other way and she could go GI Jane on you.

To be honest, the only even vaguely GI Jane characters I have seen were Mary Sues, and they tend to invariably be slightly built. I think the balance is definitely skewed toward the weepy damsel or the louder version: irrational shrieking harpy. There is very rarely a rational, uncontested righteousness in the way Inara is portrayed, where she doesn't end up being shown the error of her ways. Themes like on the show in the pilot or in "Safe", where she goes up against Mal and doesn't care if he gets mad, maybe even wins out of purely being right, that rarely happens.

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It's obvious her career was chosen for her at a very young age,

Why is that obvious? There is nothing to suggest that there is anything involuntary about being a Companion, whereas there was many suggestions that it is not that easy to become one. Viewing her profession as something she did not fully, whole-heartedly and gladly choose is almost something I want to put on the list because it is entirely based on assumptions, but very pervasive in the fandom and I cannot help but wonder whether this is also due to some need to purify Inara, to take this choice out of her hands and make it "not her fault".

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While she can certainly enjoy the sex she's being paid for, it lacks the emotion and passion one would feel with an individual they actually love because she was taught to not form an emotional attachment.

Inara grew up in a society not so different from ours, yet the pervasive tendency is to assume she wouldn't have been surrounded by the same messages combining love and sexuality. Why would Companion training ignore this obvious link instead of merely making a distinction between professional and private sex? How could Inara even do her job if she wasn't somewhat experienced the many different natures of sex? How could she understand her clients?

What I see there is a hesitancy to allow a woman to NOT choose romantic love but something else, even if she knows the difference. The assumption that sex with a loving partner must necessarily be more fulfilling - sexually - it doesn't really have a basis. It is more fulfilling emotionally, but sexually? Why do people have affairs even though they love their spouses? Because sexual fulfillment is not necessarily linked to love. Who would know this better than a Companion?

I can buy that Inara may be emotionally unfulfilled, but this is always always always linked to sexual fulfillment, linked to sex with Mal being of a quality she has never experienced before. I don't buy it. It's one of the most damaging kinds of female fairy tale that sex with your true love is automatically awesome, or that it isn't as good if you don't love your partner.

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The guild isn't evil, however the flashbacks from OoG and her conversations make it easy to assume that the Guild is completely Pro-Alliance (as are most of her clients).

Which is also not the same thing as unthinkingly supporting bad choices that the Alliance makes. There is no evidence that the Guild has direct links with the Alliance other than supporting their general politics (which aren't that different from our current world, really) yet in fic the two seem to be merged.

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I think after the BDM she begins to doubt her ties and association with the Guild because her views have changed. She’s been through enough, and seen enough though of the dark side of the government to doubt her place as a Companion though, so it’s understandable.

THAT is the exact view that bothers me.

Why would rejecting some of the Alliance's politics (the crazy secret kind that most Alliance-officials didn't even know about) cause her to reject the Guild? If anything, shouldn't her impulse be to find out whether the Guild is in any way entangled with the darker aspects of the Alliance? Or maybe she knows that they aren't. There is no logical reason why Inara should feel the way you describe.

It's like rejecting membership in your union or church community because it was once protected by a government that turned out to be corrupt. It makes no sense and it strikes me as a gut-reaction to paint the Guild as a bad factor in Inara's life that needs to be removed, without regard to how important it is time and again described as being to her.

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As for Inara being unfairly kicked out of the Guild in lue of the Miranda video, I think it’s possible. As state above there is probably some politicking within the Guild since it is so Pro-Alliance.

Why is that probable? Why wouldn't the Guild be just as horrified by the revealed secret as Inara herself? Inara is/was Pro-Alliance, as was Simon until he had reason to be suspicious, yet they have no problem being sane moral beings, so why should the Guild be making apologies for a government that betrayed them as much as any other citizen?

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They still quarrel sometimes, but they’ve both learned to explain why they’re angry. Inara may get upset over something Mal does, however after calling him an idiot (and possibly threatening to kill him under her breath if what he’s doing doesn’t kill him) she’ll call him out on whatever he did. Mal can be an ass sometimes, and Inara in their relationship wouldn’t let that fly, and she definitely wouldn’t let him boss her around.

I find it interesting that it's always something that Mal does and Inara reacts to. Already for that reason I find it more interesting when Inara keeps her job, because it would level the distribution of irritating behavior between the two. A relationship where one acts out (Mal) and the other exists to reign them in (Inara) is really written quite often and it - surprise *g* - bothers me, because it makes Inara a passive reacting agent, Mal the eternal apologizer. If Inara has equally legitimate reason to do things that Mal doesn't like, it's far more equal, yet Inara "screwing up" is generally treated far less leniently in fic than Mal doing so.

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I can also see Inara in a teaching or mothering role post BDM because of the things I have listed above. She went to Madressa to teach, she likes the teaching and would enjoy playing that role on Serenity.

But wouldn't she be bored? She didn't go to the training house (NOT Madrassa, which is in Sihnon) to be a primary school teacher, and what exactly is the "mother role" on Serenity, unless it either came with Captainly powers (which is whatr comprises Mal's paternal role) or wouldn't extend beyond what she already does in the series, beside her fulfilling job. They are all adults there, it's not a full-time job to mother them.

Even at the training house, Inara was intellectually stimulated, surrounded by cultural peers and engaged in teaching the thing she values and knows most about. Confined to Serenity, there wouldn't exactly be much of that. My bet is that she would hate it. She goes twitchy enough every time Mal lets time stretch between planets in the series, how would she feel if there was no such thing as a client meeting waiting for her?

I don't think this scenario is well thought-through most of the time. It doesn't address most of the things she would miss about her profession and the lifestyle attached to it. Possibly because that would be considered selfish of a female character.

I, too, apologize for the length of this. :)

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:01 AM

Yay! I’ve missed these kinds of threads! These discussions do stoke the fire to work on the half-finished, really-needs-to-get-finished fic.

And it’s just fun, to break down the characters this way – thanks AR!

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
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Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's an anti feminist movement, simply because most writers do not intentionally writer in an anti-feminist fashion.

Oh, I wouldn't ascribe it to a movement, at all! Nor do I think that the women writing this are intentionally unfeminist. I don't think they really consider what they are writing, and the result worries me because it says a lot about how women view female characters and by extension, female human beings.

I was a little shocked, when I first read Firefly fanfic, at how many young woman wrote romantic fluff. I had thought my mother's generation put an end to that, and yet here were a group of women basically fantasizing of nothing but a strong man to take care of them. I guess that can be fun and all, but reducing strong characters like Inara and Kaylee and River to little dolls with nothing to focus on but the man in their lives – ack! I’m just not into any Joss verse so I can imagine myself as the stay-at-home caretaker of a big man who’ll protect and coddle me in return. Sure, I’ll imagine good sex and fluffy romance, but in the Joss verse I expect the female characters I identify with to have some backbone, and for the relationships to not fall into the usual gender stereotypes. That’s what Joss is all about, right? Break the stereotypes while making fun of them whenever possible.

Anyway, I guess fanfic was my first experience with a kind of anti-feminist movement in the younger generation. And I do think it is, at least in part, consciously done. I’ve had young women tell me: “But I don’t want to go to college, I don’t want to work - I want to find a husband to support me while I stay home and have kids, and all the feminist stuff be damned!”

I admit, I find that disturbing. Stay at home moms are lovely, but for a young woman to plan for nothing else is like she’s setting herself up to be trapped and unhappy.

Oh sorry. I got a bit preachy.

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It's obvious her career was chosen for her at a very young age,

Why is that obvious?

Seconded. I don't see this as obvious at all. In fact, it never even occurred to me! My own assumption is that strong-willed, independent Inara chose her own path. Supporting this: I see the Guild as a place that would take a great deal of care in making sure that each novice *wants* to be there. Certainly, this is arguable given Nandi’s situation. But then, I never saw Nandi’s “shunning” as a systematic thing, but more like the reaction of a clique to a suddenly very rebellious member.

AR said: “I cannot help but wonder whether this is also due to some need to purify Inara, to take this choice out of her hands and make it "not her fault".”

Whoa. Nice insight! I think you’re right, AR, that much of this comes down to assumptions we all make about the nature of the Guild. I don’t see it as a place that would force any little girl to become a Companion. I think each little girl (or boy – I really want gender parity in the Guild, although I fear it’s not so!) would have to work very hard to prove that she wants to be there, and would have to show a high level of self-awareness and comfort with sexuality, as well as skill with people, in order to earn a position as a Companion.

TuJiaoZuo said: “While she can certainly enjoy the sex she's being paid for, it lacks the emotion and passion one would feel with an individual they actually love because she was taught to not form an emotional attachment.”

This I agree with. It may not be lock-step with feminist principles to say that Inara can’t get fulfillment from the type of sex she chooses, but, after all, why does she have to be a cutting edge, perfect feminist?

So here’s the thing: We are given more than one sex scene of Inara with a client, and she always seems aloof. In the pilot episode, War Stories, with Fess. She barely breaks a sweat, and her attention is on the client, not herself and her own pleasure. The little smile she gives the guy in the pilot, and her similar expression to the woman in War Stories, I always found a little creepy. The pleasure she’s feeling is so shallow, so aimed at the client, and not revealing of her own inner personality. The one time we see Inara seeming really into sex is in the comics, when she’s imagining being with Mal. That’s a big statement to me, whether it’s feminist or not.

Don’t get me wrong – I think she is genuinely happy that her clients find pleasure, and there is fulfillment in being the cause of that. I also think Inara can find physical satisfaction whenever she chooses. But it’s always in such a controlled, conscientious way. I don’t think she ever truly loses track of herself, which is big part of the joy of sex, right? She doesn’t have that. Never did, as far as I can tell.

I do think she’s consciously made a choice to have this kind of sex, and it’s absolutely a choice any woman can make and can be happy with. In fact, I’ve made sure to include Companions in my fics who are very happy and fulfilled in their profession. I wanted to make it clear that a happy Companion life is possible.

Unfortunately, it isn’t working out for Inara. Otherwise, why would she be on Serenity? Joss says it in the commentary on Shindig – she doesn’t fit in her own world. There’s something wrong there, something in herself that won’t let her love the life the way other Companions do. My fanfictional take is that, in choosing her career, she overlooked her own emotional needs. I had to go back to show her childhood, and there are some events still to be told (for anyone who’s still my long-delayed opus, yes more is coming!) to explain why she can’t be satisfied as a Companion. In the end, it has nothing to do with feminism or anti-feminism. It’s about Inara as a human being.

Wow – so who should be apologizing for long posts? LOL! And I still have a lot to go!

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I can buy that Inara may be emotionally unfulfilled, but this is always always always linked to sexual fulfillment, linked to sex with Mal being of a quality she has never experienced before. I don't buy it. It's one of the most damaging kinds of female fairy tale that sex with your true love is automatically awesome, or that it isn't as good if you don't love your partner.

Grrr…. Absolutely true, but I admit to being enough of a romantic to want it to be just *better* with Mal LOL!

Can you accede that finding emotional and sexual fulfillment at once may be something novel and wonderful for Inara? Something she doesn’t even understand that she’s missing?

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Which is also not the same thing as unthinkingly supporting bad choices that the Alliance makes. There is no evidence that the Guild has direct links with the Alliance other than supporting their general politics (which aren't that different from our current world, really) yet in fic the two seem to be merged.

Ditto. I was funded for several years by government research money, and yet I have no love or support for many (most) choices made by the soon-to-be ended administration. Only the most stridently nutty RWEDer would blame the Iraq war on me because I collected seismic data on Uncle Sam’s buck. Similarly, it would be silly to blame the Guild for Miranda.

Yes, AR, I realize you pretty said this already. Sorry – had to say it my own way.

I second this too: “Why wouldn't the Guild be just as horrified by the revealed secret as Inara herself? Inara is/was Pro-Alliance, as was Simon until he had reason to be suspicious, yet they have no problem being sane moral beings, so why should the Guild be making apologies for a government that betrayed them as much as any other citizen?”

But they can’t be moral beings – they’re a bunch a’ whores!

AR: “I find it interesting that it's always something that Mal does and Inara reacts to.”

Just like it’s always something Simon does and no one ever tells Kaylee to chill the f**k out and let the poor doctor be human.

As for Inara’s future role – I don’t see her cooking at all! She is so not a domestic. I see her liking the thrill of the jobs, and being good at it. As I’ve posted on another Inara thread recently dug up, I think there was a “real” Inara hidden behind the smooth, polished, boring (I thought) Companion. The “real” Inara talked smack to YoSaffBridge in the trash can, and cried in HoG, and got all awkward after kissing Mal, and even used bad words when she was pissed off. I think the post BDM Inara would be more of that.

One other thing. Tujiaozuo - When does Inara mention a mother? I totally missed that!

Do I win for longest post?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:36 AM

Oh forgot to reply to the priginal post...

So, I'm very much guilty of having Inara's role in my fic centered around Mal. To excuse myself I'll say: everything in my fic is pretty much centered around Mal.

Also, Inara's quest is kind of like Mario out to save the princess. You know, with Mal being the princess. But I do have her throwing her Companion life away for Mal - so she can have a chance at "rescuing" him - and she returns to Serenity feeling all kinds of apologetic for having left him.

So I'm just saying, I hope that some of the things on that list are not automatically horrible plots LOL!

But the one thing in AR's original post that really has me thinking is the idea of Mal having to change. Clearly, there are ways he would need to soften up before they could actually have a relationship. But, in terms of the Companion issue, I'm not sure what could be done. Perhaps the only properly feminist solution is for him to accept her profession and learn to live with it, but I don't see that as even a remote possibility. I don't think he could do it. And I don't think he should have to, that he's a bad man if he doesn't tell her: "OK, honey, go please your client and I'll have dinner ready when you get home!"

So, really, I think the only way they could be together in any long term basis is for Inara to change. I can't see any other way. And I don't think that's not due to my own gender stereotypes - I think that's just their situation.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
My theory is that many of the female writers feel that they would "treat Mal much better" in Inara's place and thus correct Inara's missteps without regard to pesky things like equality or charactisation. But that's only on my very judgmental days.

Oh. I think that's every day for me LOL!

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Does anyone else notice this? How do you feel about it? Bothered? Indifferent? Overjoyed? Ready to explain/defend/re-interpret?

The worst thing for me is what writers do with Inara when they bring on some OC female heroine (who's often suspiciously similar to the fantasy ID of the writer) to be Mal's gal-pal. Inara generally goes through some very predicable stages: jealous and pouty, then fiesty, then finally gives in to the romantic superiority of the Mary Sue before disappearing into minor character obscurity. And Mal hardly takes an active part in this process, but waits in some manly pose for the victor to come claim him.

Not only does this woefully mis-characterize Inara, it removes any independent personality from Mal. He becomes like the Disney prince of the 50s - setting around all handsome and flawless, with absolutely nothing but his good looks and fancy castle to prove him desirable. These kinds of stories work hard to show that the woman is deserving, but never ask whether the man is really worth it.

So - how many fics ask whether Mal really deserves Inara? Not the fancy Companion Inara, but the empathetic, smart, tough, caring Inara? Why do we so easily assume that he's such a good catch for her? Just because we are all so completely in love with Nathan and Mal's so damned sexy?

Hmm... food for thought...

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:40 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

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Whoa. Nice insight! I think you’re right, AR, that much of this comes down to assumptions we all make about the nature of the Guild. I don’t see it as a place that would force any little girl to become a Companion. I think each little girl (or boy – I really want gender parity in the Guild, although I fear it’s not so!) would have to work very hard to prove that she wants to be there, and would have to show a high level of self-awareness and comfort with sexuality, as well as skill with people, in order to earn a position as a Companion.

Inara certainly went into the Guild willingly and with her eyes wide open. I do feel that there was likely a small bit of family pressure to be a Companion. Moreana's remark that being a Companion was a "family business" for Inara leads one to believe that maybe her mother, possible sisters or even aunts are or were Companions. It may mean that she was encouraged but it still was her own decision.

BTW I'd like to see male Commpanions too, but it's a proposal that's highly controversial and much debated among the Guild members.

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Can you accede that finding emotional and sexual fulfillment at once may be something novel and wonderful for Inara

Yes, AR, I realize you pretty said this already. Sorry – had to say it my own way.

I have to agree with you there Mal4Prez. You can be fulfilled sexually without the emotional component. And emotions are scary, and are very scary for Inara. I get the feeling that Inara has pushed her emotions about sex into the background, like most professionals. It's all about the client.

That's what makes Mal scary. He wants the emotion. And I'm also a hopeless romantic too and want Mal to be "special".

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“Why wouldn't the Guild be just as horrified by the revealed secret as Inara herself? Inara is/was Pro-Alliance, as was Simon until he had reason to be suspicious, yet they have no problem being sane moral beings, so why should the Guild be making apologies for a government that betrayed them as much as any other citizen?”

But they can’t be moral beings – they’re a bunch a’ whores!

The Guild is likely very independent and would be horrified too about what certain members of the Alliance did.

There are also many ties to the powers that be. It's likely most clients are powerful either socially, financially or politically so a certain investment in the power structure is inevitable.

The Guild has to walk a tightrope between total independence from the power structure and alienating their most important clients.

I don't see the Guild having a knee jerk rejection of Inara, but I do see some sort of investigation as to Inara's actions. She did abandon her teaching post and runaway with a "pirate" and she also put the girls and other teachers at the Training House in danger, but I'm not sure that the crew has even been identified as the ones that sent the Miranda message so if they are unidentified there would be no sanctions of Inara for the message.

I'm not sure what the results of the investigation would be but I'm fairly sure that Inara does stay on Serenity in some capacity.

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As for Inara’s future role – I don’t see her cooking at all! She is so not a domestic. I see her liking the thrill of the jobs, and being good at it. As I’ve posted on another Inara thread recently dug up, I think there was a “real” Inara hidden behind the smooth, polishe

d, boring (I thought) Companion. The “real” Inara talked smack to YoSaffBridge in the trash can, and cried in HoG, and got all awkward after kissing Mal, and even used bad words when she was pissed off. I think the post BDM Inara would be more of that

That's the Inara I'd like to see too.

And as to Inara's mother there is no clue whatsoever. So i wrote a fic where Inara explains to Mal that her mother was a Companion but she was raised by a foster family and every so often her mother would breeze in, take her to tea and speak a bit romantically about her life as a Companion.

It would also expain Inara's need for a family. For a while the Guild was her family. Now she's found another on Serenity.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:15 AM

Canonically, Inara started training as a companion when she was 12.

It actually doesn't seem like that's an unusual thing in the 'verse, vocation training to start that young. I think little Simon in 'Safe' was already being groomed to become a doctor, and little River for that horrific Academy Program. Certainly, none of the characters ended up in their professions by accident.

My view of the Alliance is a merging between Communist China and Amercia's darker more controlling aspects. With a Big Scary Bureaucratic Government like that, lording over all the planets in the system, and the recurring themes of freedom and the blend between eastern/western culture, I feel like my assessment fits. And if that's true, children are probably more like selected by the government for what jobs they'll have on core planets.

It's all white-washed with the illusion of having choice, but really, how many people do you know who could make determined, well-reasoned choices about their futures when they were 12 and 14? I picture more the government giving out aptitude tests, saying to the children, "This is a very exciting program, this would be perfect for you!", listing all the reasons why they should be interested. Kids run home to their parents and practically beg them to let them go. Manipulation.

That's not to say the job doesn't fit, or that the person might not be able to enjoy their job. The government would do this probably because it would think it has their best interests in mind. Hell, they probably thought River was being improved, and that she would welcome being turned into a psychic assassin. And, of course, River is an example of what could go wrong with a system like that, Simon and Inara may be examples of it working correctly.

But choice, I'm not seeing that as likely. Not with what we do know about the Alliance government, little though it is.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:50 AM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yay! I’ve missed these kinds of threads! These discussions do stoke the fire to work on the half-finished, really-needs-to-get-finished fic. And it’s just fun, to break down the characters this way – thanks AR!

It really really needs to get finished! It's the most exciting WIP out there! Get to typing! *G*

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Anyway, I guess fanfic was my first experience with a kind of anti-feminist movement in the younger generation. And I do think it is, at least in part, consciously done. I’ve had young women tell me: “But I don’t want to go to college, I don’t want to work - I want to find a husband to support me while I stay home and have kids, and all the feminist stuff be damned!”

Oh.

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Certainly, this is arguable given Nandi’s situation. But then, I never saw Nandi’s “shunning” as a systematic thing, but more like the reaction of a clique to a suddenly very rebellious member.

My personal take on the dulcimer story, as I wrote in an lj meme some months back: The true story of the dulcimer destruction involved a whole lot less rebellion and a whole lot more tears and desperation: she killed her own sense of failure. The teacher ended up patting her back while she cried. She doesn't tell people that part, though, when they need to hear something else.

I figure the shunning was less formal and more tied to some ugly scenes before her departure. It makes me love Nandi that she tells it like a heroic tale of rebellion, when really.. I mean, smashing an instrument is a dang childish thing to do. *sigh* Oh Nandi.

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So here’s the thing: We are given more than one sex scene of Inara with a client, and she always seems aloof. In the pilot episode, War Stories, with Fess. She barely breaks a sweat, and her attention is on the client, not herself and her own pleasure. The little smile she gives the guy in the pilot, and her similar expression to the woman in War Stories, I always found a little creepy. The pleasure she’s feeling is so shallow, so aimed at the client, and not revealing of her own inner personality. The one time we see Inara seeming really into sex is in the comics, when she’s imagining being with Mal. That’s a big statement to me, whether it’s feminist or not.

I'm not rabidly opposed to the idea that sex with some - even many - clients would not be great. But I always feel compelled to point out that the clients we have seen are probably not those that Companions commonly service. We have not once seen her with a client who actually stems from her own culture, Core, Sihnon, etc. The Border world or Rim clients she takes on Persephone and Higgins Moon are all a few steps below her on the cultural ladder, and with the Councilor in "War Stories" we hardly see anything.

Not to mention, in terms of her sexual spectrum, Inara may very well have had "private" sexual partners within or without the Guild before she joins Serenity. Her one line on the subject of dating ("It's complicated.") is really not much of a source to speculate on. I would not find it at all contradictory if Inara maybe had a boyfriend in the past, or several, that she has experienced sex beyond the controlled way you spea of.

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I do think she’s consciously made a choice to have this kind of sex, and it’s absolutely a choice any woman can make and can be happy with. In fact, I’ve made sure to include Companions in my fics who are very happy and fulfilled in their profession. I wanted to make it clear that a happy Companion life is possible.

Which is why I like your fic. :) Among other reasons.

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Unfortunately, it isn’t working out for Inara. Otherwise, why would she be on Serenity? Joss says it in the commentary on Shindig – she doesn’t fit in her own world. There’s something wrong there, something in herself that won’t let her love the life the way other Companions do.

I do not have a problem with this idea, at all. This restlessness is, after all, a large part of her character and it wouldn't be there if all was well.

My complaint is that it is always tied around the idea of Companion-life itself being somehow wrong. I miss the qualifiers that single out Inara. I also think this same thing would be true even if she DID have mind-blowing sex with every client, so using the sexual unfulfillment as the "tell" irks me.

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I can buy that Inara may be emotionally unfulfilled, but this is always always always linked to sexual fulfillment, linked to sex with Mal being of a quality she has never experienced before. I don't buy it. It's one of the most damaging kinds of female fairy tale that sex with your true love is automatically awesome, or that it isn't as good if you don't love your partner.
Grrr…. Absolutely true, but I admit to being enough of a romantic to want it to be just *better* with Mal LOL!

How about... just as good?

I figure, they have years ahead of them to get even better at the sex. I find the idea charming that there is ONE definite sexual advantage to long-term relationships which is that if both parties work at it, the sex often IS better than with a random new partner, even counting the rush of unfamiliarity. If they don't let boredom and indifference get in the way.

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Can you accede that finding emotional and sexual fulfillment at once may be something novel and wonderful for Inara? Something she doesn’t even understand that she’s missing?

I can accede that. I don't particularly like the scenario, on its own it is not enough to make me dismiss a fic, at all, especially since the same is likely true for Mal. Which more people should focus on. ;) I mean, how much romantic and sexual experience can this man have had in his life? When it comes to girls, he's twelve!

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Only the most stridently nutty RWEDer would blame the Iraq war on me because I collected seismic data on Uncle Sam’s buck. Similarly, it would be silly to blame the Guild for Miranda.

Is this where we have to eye you with suspicion and denounce your beautiful fic series because we do not feel comfortable with your links to questionable politics?

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AR: “I find it interesting that it's always something that Mal does and Inara reacts to.”

Just like it’s always something Simon does and no one ever tells Kaylee to chill the f**k out and let the poor doctor be human.

GOD, yes. I heart Kaylee, but someone needs to grab her feet, hang her upside down and shake her until the princess sparkles fall out of her ears. And then cuddle her.

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One other thing. Tujiaozuo - When does Inara mention a mother? I totally missed that!

So did I... If Tujiaozuo refers to her comment in "Trash" ("Not my lover, not my mothr, nor anyone who has the slightest say in how I conduct my affairs") I think this isn't meant to be a direct reference to Inara's mother and her role in Inara's life, but rather.. a general image of someone whose input would be acceptable.

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Do I win for longest post?

We'll submit your entry to the judges. ;)

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:26 AM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
So, I'm very much guilty of having Inara's role in my fic centered around Mal. To excuse myself I'll say: everything in my fic is pretty much centered around Mal.

The series is centered around Mal, really, so I don't think you have anything to apologize for. Within the series, they never got the chance to show very much of Inara's life outside her fairly unusual and recent place on Serenity, so even there most everything she does is centered around Mal. Much of Book is also centered entirely around Mal, but since there's no sexual angle, people focus on this less.

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Also, Inara's quest is kind of like Mario out to save the princess. You know, with Mal being the princess. But I do have her throwing her Companion life away for Mal - so she can have a chance at "rescuing" him - and she returns to Serenity feeling all kinds of apologetic for having left him.

I like the princess!Mal angle! *g* Plus, your scenario is entirely different than the one generally used. In your fic, the circumstances of her leaving are genuinely... unkind. And the way she throws away her life are, indeed, about rescuing. She's not throwing it away for the one truth of romance, she is throwing it away in sacrifice of his life and the crew. Much like in "Shindig". This is heroic, not weak. Unlike most scenarios where she decides to leave because she suddenly hates Companion life.

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But the one thing in AR's original post that really has me thinking is the idea of Mal having to change. Clearly, there are ways he would need to soften up before they could actually have a relationship. But, in terms of the Companion issue, I'm not sure what could be done. Perhaps the only properly feminist solution is for him to accept her profession and learn to live with it, but I don't see that as even a remote possibility. I don't think he could do it. And I don't think he should have to, that he's a bad man if he doesn't tell her: "OK, honey, go please your client and I'll have dinner ready when you get home!"

So, really, I think the only way they could be together in any long term basis is for Inara to change. I can't see any other way. And I don't think that's not due to my own gender stereotypes - I think that's just their situation.

I guess that is where we agree to disagree. :) I CAN stomach and enjoy stories where Inara gives up her job, but I can definitely see Mal accepting her job, as well. Mal is a very forceful personality, almost unbearably smug when allowed to be, and dominates almost every relationship he has, which puts him under and incredible amount of tension and isolates him, emotionally.

To me the thematic arc of their relationship is to give and receive unconditional love. Mal giving in and submitting to something - not because it is forced on him but because he chooses it - that would enrich his character and actually help him find some peace. It would involve trust, acceptance, humility. Not bad things in a relationship, or for Mal.

I think this step would enable Inara to truly consider giving up her career without any resentment because it would be her choice, not a condition, and in turn accept all the unsavory aspects of Mal's life, like she actually has been for some time now.

It's not just an idea of political correctness to me, honest. It's how I ideally perceive their relationship arc. :)

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(Mary Sues)
These kinds of stories work hard to show that the woman is deserving, but never ask whether the man is really worth it.

Beautiful point!

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So - how many fics ask whether Mal really deserves Inara? Not the fancy Companion Inara, but the empathetic, smart, tough, caring Inara? Why do we so easily assume that he's such a good catch for her? Just because we are all so completely in love with Nathan and Mal's so damned sexy?

I love you. (Down, Rouka, down.)

Ahem.

It's really true! That Mal deserves Inara is generally the assumed truth. There's often some soul-searching on Mal's side ("I am poor, I am ornery.") but Inara is often quick to assure him that he is awesome. But.. is he, really? I know why I think they would be great in a relationship together, but Mal doesn't do a great job of making sure Inara knows this. The fact that he is so very bad at it is a big reason Inara leaves in the first place. Mal being nice to Kaylee or having a wounded soul is not the best basis for a relationship with Inara, so I enjoy fics that actually show Mal caring about Inara beyond "She is sure a fine lady" or rescuing her from some evil guy. Mal looking at Inara's picture in the movie, during a moment where normally he might have sought refuge in her shuttle, that was a nice example of this, him seeking that connection.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:03 AM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Canonically, Inara started training as a companion when she was 12.

That doesn't imply that it is anything but a specialized school for the longest time. Nothing suggests that the girls training at the Academy must become Companions, that they cannot leave or change their mind. My sister went to a specialised sports school until 12th grade and made the choice not to become a professional springboard diver but to quit the sport and go to university. That's the scenario I'm seeing here.

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It actually doesn't seem like that's an unusual thing in the 'verse, vocation training to start that young. I think little Simon in 'Safe' was already being groomed to become a doctor, and little River for that horrific Academy Program. Certainly, none of the characters ended up in their professions by accident.

Simon was being groomed by his father, which says nothing at all about the Alliance, and River was a special case anyway. She took college classes already before she entered the program. It's like a boarding school for gifted kids, something I am sure we can find in our society, as well. Nothing oppressive or choice-less about it, except for how the Blue Hands lied about it.

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My view of the Alliance is a merging between Communist China and Amercia's darker more controlling aspects. With a Big Scary Bureaucratic Government like that, lording over all the planets in the system, and the recurring themes of freedom and the blend between eastern/western culture, I feel like my assessment fits. And if that's true, children are probably more like selected by the government for what jobs they'll have on core planets.

That's a pretty deliberate assumption on your part, though, and one I cannot agree with. There is nothing in the series to support the assumption that the Alliance has that much influence over private decisions. I think it is pretty telling that we are shown Simon's father pushing him towards a medical career. And I doubt that the Alliance has any business choosing Guild candidates.

I thinkt he Core Alliance society is probably only a slightly more extreme version of our Western society, not nearly as close to fascism or socialism as you suggest. Which is the brilliance of it. Make the Alliance extremely oppressive.. boring black/white evil/good blather. Make the Alliance only slightly removed from where we are - thought-provoking.

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It's all white-washed with the illusion of having choice, but really, how many people do you know who could make determined, well-reasoned choices about their futures when they were 12 and 14?

Once again this assumes that the kids have no choice between entering certain schools and starting up certain careers. There is no evidence that Simon started medical school at that young an age, River went to a special boarding school as I mentioned and the Guild is more similar to a spiritual boarding school than an actual vocational training school for "years", as Inara says in the deleted scene of the movie.

Nothing makes your scenario particularly likely but your choise to assume that the Alliance is evil.

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But choice, I'm not seeing that as likely. Not with what we do know about the Alliance government, little though it is.

None of what we know actually supports your theory, either. What we know is that there are particularly aggressive agents within it that have the blessing of a small group of higher ups (why else the secrecy) and there are blackout zones on Osiris, which may or may not be tied to anti-terror legislation. The rest of the negative cast on the Alliance is entirely based on their past foreign policy and Mal's opinion, which is understandably quite biased. We know zero about what living within it is actually like because we have seen zero.

Making these sweeping negative assumptions is too easy for my taste. It erases much of what I find stimulating about the show, which are the grey areas. Joss never says that the Alliance is evil, or that live within it is bad. What is generally condemned is their attempt to force other planet INTO their system. "Spread democracy" by invading backwards places. In a more current language.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:39 AM

I like disliking the government. I already see ours as pretty fascist, so my conclusions in my head aren't as big a leap as they are to you.

Much as I like libertarianism, I also understand the need for socialism, and a lot of people think I'm extreme left. Many people consider me communist, even though state communism leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You're assuming I'm assuming the Alliance is evil for making people's choices for them. That's our western cultural bias at work.

Sometimes choosing people's professions based on what they're good at is a decent process, gives people purpose when here it can feel damn directionless. I know a lot of people in America who feel like they lead empty lives, and think somehow ROMANCE will save them from that. Yikes. That's just a relationship disaster waiting to happen.

So no, I don't think the Alliance is evil for choosing for it's people... But I can see them doing it. I feel my conclusion could be a valid one, even if it's an illogical one based only on scraps of evidence, the themes of the show, and what I know of communist states like China. Not necessarily TRUE, we'd need more information, but a valid one.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:02 AM

And in regard's to Simon's father, the words he uses are something like "just grow up to be a good doctor" in response to getting Simon a needed piece of technology. Going on that short comment, it could be Simon's father is being supportive, that he's making an off-hand comment (and it happens to turn out Simon does become a doctor), that his father is actively grooming him to become a doctor, OR, it's also possible Simon's career has already been set down before him.

There's a lot we don't know, and little information to go on. Bits and pieces, gleaned from snippets of conversation that can be interpreted so many ways. Just about every conclusion is possible. That's what makes fanfic fun.

Nandi left the guild's training program, apparently, and not only had to travel to the rim to get away, but she had to become a whore and was shunned, either systematically or by the choice of the other companions. That seems like pretty steep consequences for leaving training that should have been something she chose.

Anyway. I fear I'm diverting the thread from the original discussion though, about what constitutes a betrayal of the strong feminist character that Inara represents.

I like to think my interpretation takes the sting out of Inara's career not being her choice, since it applies to virtually everyone from the Core Worlds. I'm not making that assertion because for some reason I think her career is morally reprehensible, or unfair to her, or whatever. She's a therapist, a sex therapist to be more exact. Helping people seems pretty noble to me. And she enjoys her job, and has choice in her clients, at least.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I like disliking the government. I already see ours as pretty fascist, so my conclusions in my head aren't as big a leap as they are to you.

Much as I like libertarianism, I also understand the need for socialism, and a lot of people think I'm extreme left. Many people consider me communist, even though state communism leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You're assuming I'm assuming the Alliance is evil for making people's choices for them. That's our western cultural bias at work.

Sometimes choosing people's professions based on what they're good at is a decent process, gives people purpose when here it can feel damn directionless. I know a lot of people in America who feel like they lead empty lives, and think somehow ROMANCE will save them from that. Yikes. That's just a relationship disaster waiting to happen.

So no, I don't think the Alliance is evil for choosing for it's people... But I can see them doing it. I feel my conclusion could be a valid one, even if it's an illogical one based only on scraps of evidence, the themes of the show, and what I know of communist states like China. Not necessarily TRUE, we'd need more information, but a valid one.

Well, my parents grew up and lived in states (Eastern Germany and Communist Russia, to be exact) that chose their occupations for them and they viewed it as less than ideal, both of them, so that colors my negative bias toward making those choices for people on a broad basis. :)

It only makes sense in a society that needs large numbers of particular occupations, like they NEEDED industry and agricultural workers in Eastern Germany (My father studied chemistry, against his wishes.) but the Core seems so affluent that it seems unnecessary and counterproductive to push people toward certain occupations because instead of quantity, quality would be desired. And I don't think they need to start training administrative personnel at age 14 when it might turn out they'd be brilliant, highly taxable professionals of a different kind with a few more years of less specifically directed study.

I think, in terms of domestic policy, the Alliance is probably quite liberal and generous, as long as no one makes any overtly curious noises.

Anyway, since I think that the Alliance has zero say about the Guild itself, it's not that relevant. :)

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:22 AM

Whoops, sorry. I'm just used to the sanctity of choice and freedom being a very American perspective. It's not a wrong one, but it's been my observation that sometimes people are left to flounder, too.

But I agree that it's dangerous to give a government that kind of power.

And that's maybe why I think the Alliance has it. Worst case scenario thinking, that's me.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Going on that short comment, it could be Simon's father is being supportive, that he's making an off-hand comment (and it happens to turn out Simon does become a doctor), that his father is actively grooming him to become a doctor, OR, it's also possible Simon's career has already been set down before him.

Okay, granted, it's not definitely said, but it is fairly likely.

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Nandi left the guild's training program, apparently, and not only had to travel to the rim to get away, but she had to become a whore and was shunned, either systematically or by the choice of the other companions. That seems like pretty steep consequences for leaving training that should have been something she chose.

There I turn the tables on you and say that there is nothing to suggest that she had to end up where she did, nor that the shunning would have had any influence outside of the actual Companion circle. I even doubt the shunning was related to her choice to leave but entirely to her manner of doing so. (Temper trantrum extraordinaire.)

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I like to think my interpretation takes the sting out of Inara's career not being her choice, since it applies to virtually everyone from the Core Worlds.

But even if your theory about occupational choices for the general Core applied, it would definitely NOT apply to the Guild, because it is entirely separate from the government, as an institution, with implied religious undertones. The exclusivity is emphasized a lot and forcing little girls to become prostitutes would hardly be in the official spirit of the Alliance nor of the Guild (a Companion chooses her own clients probably includes the choice not to have any.)

I feel I have to completely reject this theory. It's sexual slavery and Inara would be smart enough to condemn this. To assume she wouldn't paints her as a brainless victim.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It really really needs to get finished! It's the most exciting WIP out there! Get to typing! *G*

Exciting but slow going LOL! I'm making progress though. After this thread, I put another half chapter together!

Yeah, I think the anti-feminist thing is a logical reaction to the post-feminist movement pressure: You must be a career woman but also a perfect soccer mom and independent and strong but still soft-hearted and sweet (and bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, but never never never let him forget he's a man…). Makes sense that the newer generation would want to buck that a bit.

Interesting take on Nandi. I must chew on that. Makes sense, and is very sad. And yes, smashing the poor instrument was rather silly of her!

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But I always feel compelled to point out that the clients we have seen are probably not those that Companions commonly service. We have not once seen her with a client who actually stems from her own culture, Core, Sihnon, etc. The Border world or Rim clients she takes on Persephone and Higgins Moon are all a few steps below her on the cultural ladder, and with the Councilor in "War Stories" we hardly see anything.

I agree. She could have had some wonderful ongoing things with clients in the Core. Kind of like she might have had with Ath, if he was a decent guy.

I do also think she's had some boyfriends. But they must always have been aware what she was, kind of like a movie star or super model never knowing if her date likes her or her aura of greatness. She’d still alawys be Inara the Companion around them.

But, since we know nothing, this is certainly an area open to lots of speculation.

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My complaint is that it is always tied around the idea of Companion-life itself being somehow wrong. I miss the qualifiers that single out Inara. I also think this same thing would be true even if she DID have mind-blowing sex with every client, so using the sexual unfulfillment as the "tell" irks me.

Agreed!

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How about... just as good? I figure, they have years ahead of them to get even better at the sex. I find the idea charming that there is ONE definite sexual advantage to long-term relationships which is that if both parties work at it, the sex often IS better than with a random new partner, even counting the rush of unfamiliarity. If they don't let boredom and indifference get in the way.

I see bedroom problems for Simon and Kaylee. I really just don't see them getting it right the first time, given how young and different they are. Mal and Inara though... I see it working. Because they're older? Or... maybe just because I'm more of a fluff romantic about them? Probably LOL!

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I can accede that. I don't particularly like the scenario, on its own it is not enough to make me dismiss a fic, at all, especially since the same is likely true for Mal. Which more people should focus on. ;) I mean, how much romantic and sexual experience can this man have had in his life? When it comes to girls, he's twelve!

Whoa - good point! Men tend to feel all pressured to please their women. For a man who hasn't been in bed much lately to find himself with a very experienced Companion... that's got to undermine even Mal's complacency!

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Is this where we have to eye you with suspicion and denounce your beautiful fic series because we do not feel comfortable with your links to questionable politics?

LOL! Well, if you squint, you'll see these very politics, and even some of the main players, in my fic. That may not be obvious till it's over (if then), and certainly the issues will be several years out of date by the time I post the damned thing, but I very much framed my plot around my "questionable politics".

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GOD, yes. I heart Kaylee, but someone needs to grab her feet, hang her upside down and shake her until the princess sparkles fall out of her ears. And then cuddle her.

LOL! Yes, that's exactly what she needs!

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So did I... If Tujiaozuo refers to her comment in "Trash" ("Not my lover, not my mothr, nor anyone who has the slightest say in how I conduct my affairs")

Oh... subtle reference. One I'd blow off as a general statement if it was anyone but Joss. I could see that he'd put this line in because he's got some season 3 episode involving Inara's mother in mind.

Anyway, thanks for the support of my plot choices, AR! And I agree to think more on the Mal-changing issue. I can’t figure out if it’s my take on Mal – he’s traditional and small-townish in many ways – that makes me think he wouldn't ever accept Inara’s job, or if I believe it to be general human nature. I guess I have a hard time believing that anyone accept a relationship where their partner, male or female, is regularly having sex with a multitude of others. It could be my own social training I can’t overcome, especially in the age of AIDS and such. It just seems so dangerous and scary and wrong!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Whoops, sorry. I'm just used to the sanctity of choice and freedom being a very American perspective. It's not a wrong one, but it's been my observation that sometimes people are left to flounder, too.

I do not disagree with that. :) Many aspect of life in Eastern Germany, while partly taking away choice, guaranteed a greater quality of daily life and many people now miss this. I prefer the amount of choice available to me, even though I see a lot of potential for improvement in Unified Germany today. In particular the school system. Do not get me started.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Okay, granted, it's not definitely said, but it is fairly likely.

There I turn the tables on you and say that there is nothing to suggest that she had to end up where she did, nor that the shunning would have had any influence outside of the actual Companion circle. I even doubt the shunning was related to her choice to leave but entirely to her manner of doing so. (Temper trantrum extraordinaire.)

But even if your theory about occupational choices for the general Core applied, it would definitely NOT apply to the Guild, because it is entirely separate from the government, as an institution, with implied religious undertones. The exclusivity is emphasized a lot and forcing little girls to become prostitutes would hardly be in the official spirit of the Alliance nor of the Guild (a Companion chooses her own clients probably includes the choice not to have any.)

I feel I have to completely reject this theory. It's sexual slavery and Inara would be smart enough to condemn this. To assume she wouldn't paints her as a brainless victim.

Your takes on Nandi and Simon are possible, and I can't really argue them.

In my view of the Alliance, Simon WANTED to be a doctor, River WANTED to go into that fateful program. Inara would want to be a companion, they'd get her all excited about the opportunity and she'd be told that she'd be perfect for it. And hey, it'd probably be true. Her character seems like a person who enjoys helping and nurturing people. It's still manipulation.

Even smart people believe propaganda. Especially if they're raised with it and never given any reason to question it. Kids generally don't have a reason. I was VERY patriotic when I was 12... Embarrassingly so.

Guild may be separate from the government, but I'm sure the government could recommend new potential candidates. Blue Sun is separate from the government too, but somehow an Operative of Parliament was sent after River Tam when she escaped. Just how separate are they? Hard to know.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
You're assuming I'm assuming the Alliance is evil for making people's choices for them. That's our western cultural bias at work.

No. I think you're assuming that the Alliance makes choices for people. We have no proof of that.

Whether forced choices would be evil is a separate question, perhaps one left for RWED.

In regards to Inara joining the Guild: I see it like little girls pushed into taking ballet. To have any chance to be a career ballet dancer, they have to start when they're too young to really understand what they're getting into. Of course, a great number get burnt out, or aren't good enough, and quit. But they always have that choice, to do something else.

Of course, the Soviet ballet was so incredibly good because very young children were chosen based on their physique, and quitting or failing meant giving up a damned good life to live in squalor. There certainly was less freedom in that.

But I don't get that kind of vibe out of the Guild. Everything I've heard from Joss seems to point at the Guild being a positive thing, a spiritual entity more than a business.

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I know a lot of people in America who feel like they lead empty lives, and think somehow ROMANCE will save them from that. Yikes. That's just a relationship disaster waiting to happen.

***Sympathetic groan*** This is so true, and one of the ridiculous things about Disney. The Little Mermaid's "Kiss of True Love" just horrifies me! Get the Kiss and you'll be saved forever, they say. I always want to shout out: no, you'll end up pregnant and abandoned at a very young age, or married to a man you don't actually like! Don't do it until you figure out what this guy is really like!!

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So no, I don't think the Alliance is evil for choosing for it's people... But I can see them doing it. I feel my conclusion could be a valid one, even if it's an illogical one based only on scraps of evidence, the themes of the show, and what I know of communist states like China. Not necessarily TRUE, we'd need more information, but a valid one.

OK, this I can go with. Even if there's no hard evidence for it, and I'd considered any fic that went here to be treading a bit outside canon, it'd be an interesting issue to explore. This, I think, is leaving canon in a good way. As opposed to the usual romantic silliness LOL!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Yeah, I think the anti-feminist thing is a logical reaction to the post-feminist movement pressure: --(*snip*, AR)-- Makes sense that the newer generation would want to buck that a bit.

Good point. Understanding it doesn't make it less scary, though.

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I do also think she's had some boyfriends. But they must always have been aware what she was, kind of like a movie star or super model never knowing if her date likes her or her aura of greatness. She’d still alawys be Inara the Companion around them.

Maybe, maybe not.

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But, since we know nothing, this is certainly an area open to lots of speculation.

I like it like that. :) I just wish more people would speculate in my preferred direction. *finger wriggle*

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I see bedroom problems for Simon and Kaylee. I really just don't see them getting it right the first time, given how young and different they are. Mal and Inara though... I see it working. Because they're older? Or... maybe just because I'm more of a fluff romantic about them? Probably LOL!

Possibly.

I agree about the cultural problems between Simon and Kaylee. Pretty much just an extension of the out-of-bedroom problems. Their cuddly couch scene in "Objects in Space" gives me hope for them, though. It could be unbearably awesome, with the giggles!

Mal and Inara... I do NOT think it would be bad between them, that is unlikely, simply because they are very reactive to one another and sex leaves less room for insecure misinterpretations. Watch the wordless communication over Nandi's body or in the shuttle in "Out of Gas". They are attuned!

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Whoa - good point! Men tend to feel all pressured to please their women. For a man who hasn't been in bed much lately to find himself with a very experienced Companion... that's got to undermine even Mal's complacency!

That's where, I think, Mal's forceful personality and slight puritanical tendencies would be a bonus. I don't think he has feelings of sexual inadequacy worth mentioning because being a sex god is not his priority. Emotional inadequacy may plague him more. Plus, he's probably way more of a romantic about sex than Inara, with regards to the "true love = good sex" thing, heh.

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I guess I have a hard time believing that anyone accept a relationship where their partner, male or female, is regularly having sex with a multitude of others. It could be my own social training I can’t overcome, especially in the age of AIDS and such. It just seems so dangerous and scary and wrong!

Well, considering Inara is a professional, STD's aren't likely an issue, and the scenario would be quite different from cheating, or even a coerced "open marriage". It's her job, her profession, it has strong undertones of therapy and is it quite integral to Inara's identity. It's not sexual infidelity for the sake of pleasure or to avoid committment, and in this case I think it can be assumed that the sexual aspect of her job would be rather more clinical to her. Quite separate from her relationship.

There's this lovely fic I read at ff.net once that examines this... lemme see if I can find it. There:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4117565/1/Countdown

I find it very admirable that you're at least considering the scenario, anyway. :)

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:44 AM

Yeah, I don't have much proof. I guess what makes me most think it's possible is Miranda. Alliance did choose the air the people breathed, all in an effort to make the population more compliant. Makes me think they might make other choices for people too.

But now I suddenly want to do a fic about Inara acting as an empowered agent of the guild to right some wrong or another... Hmm.

Well, even big organizations aren't always evil. I'm smart enough to know that, at least. It's only aspects sometimes that are.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Guild may be separate from the government, but I'm sure the government could recommend new potential candidates. Blue Sun is separate from the government too, but somehow an Operative of Parliament was sent after River Tam when she escaped. Just how separate are they? Hard to know.

This is really the only issue where we are miles apart.

The Blue Sun/government ties are complex, but I think we should be able to agree that the Guild and Blue Sun are vastly different animals.

One is a corporation with two goals: money and power, and possibly run by people whose "Make a better world, all of them better worlds" philosophy ties them closely to certain elements high up in government. Blue Sun may be a contractor to the government, we don't know the exact nature.

But the Guild.. Inara emphasises again and again the ethical and spiritual values, rituals, religious terminology. It seems to me, in its nature, far closer to a religious institution than a commercial one, with values separate from those of the Alliance as a whole and with a great deal of money and power. The idea that the Alliance would have a particular interest in recommending students for a profession that would take them further away from the influence of the Alliance, inside an independent body... doesn't want to work for me. The Alliance also doesn't profit from the Guild outside of what may be taxes. They are a luxury item, cannot be used as a healthcare benefit for the masses. Plus, being a Companion is so glamorous, why would the Guild need recommendations. I bet they receive applications in great numbers and have a rigorous selection process.

It's, I think, like a private dance school in a communist state. Except with therapeutic prostitution. I do not think the state would bother wasting resources selecting for them, just like they wouldn't select priests for churches. If there is a selection process state-side, I'm sure that something like "therapist" might encourage some parents to let their child apply, but it would not be referred by the state.

Creating a connection between these two just feel incredibly wrong to me. I really do not think that the Alliance would touch sexual professions with a ten foot pole, in terms of referring children to their education. It's too personal a choice.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:06 PM

I do like the idea of the Guild as an almost religious organization. In past history, women have really been empowered when seen as priestesses like hierodules and the like. It'd be interesting to explore.

But by historical definition, a guild is a commercial enterprise.

This is a big if, but IF the Alliance government is like the Chinese government, then they have may control over corporations like Blue Sun and the guild.

Or rather... Big corporations may have control over THEM. This is futuristic America we're talking about here, combined with China.

In China, the government carefully selects dancers, singers, etc. so that they look good to the outside world. Look at everything we heard about during the Olympics. Russia might not have bothered, might have let families and trainers choose which daughters/sons would enter into training, but in China, they control that a lot.

Companions are glamourous examples of everything that's good, enlightened, liberated, wise, and beautiful about the Alliance. I think they'd be careful about just who can become a companion, and I suspect it's a very selective process.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 4:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't think Inara would be in a position to consider giving up her work before Mal ever accepts it, accepts loving her in spite of it.

It's hard to see Mal changing in this respect... You see this as a shortcoming in his character though, that he wants to have Inara all to himself - or is unwilling to make that sacrifice?

But could you date/marry a male companion (I imagine one as like a male escort..?) and accept it?

Jealousy and romantic love possessiveness are very human, and I don't think as traits in Mal make him any less lovable (simple, earthy guy that he is) as far as Inara would be concerned... though it does make things difficult for her.

Also, can you be married and be a companion? I just wonder if some companion women sign up with the expectation that they will retire and settle down when they're ready, or find the right partner - after all they can only work up to a certain age anyway. So the change would be more natural for Inara than mal. And from here on, I don't expect that Inara would renounce her old ways - and I do expect that mal would become more accepting of them... perhaps realising how lucky he is...

Heads should roll

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:38 PM

I wonder about age limitations. Sure, lots of men like their women young, but what about the older men who want someone who looks more their age, or who has the same sort of maturity? I guess companions make a lot of money, but would they really retire early when they might still have a client base?

Reading over the list again for anything else that caught my eye. Trying to see if I could come up with unoffensive versions of those scenarios that would empower Inara.

The kicked out of the guild thing... That's generally used as a precursor to a relationship with Mal, and both end up unrealistically happy about it.

That's a load.

I'm pretty sure both Mal and Inara would fight tooth and nail (in their own different ways) to get Inara her job back. Let alone the rest of the crew...

I think that's a fic I'd like to read. And have the unexpected ending: they're successful about it! Inara gets her job back and we see a whole lot of interesting characterizations and revelations that would probably be truer to the characters than the alternative.

Course, for it to really be feminist, the emphasis would have to be on the crew helping, not just Mal coming to save the day. I can particularly see little Kaylee and River shining in this scenario, and Inara too, standing up for herself.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't think Inara would be in a position to consider giving up her work before Mal ever accepts it, accepts loving her in spite of it.

It's hard to see Mal changing in this respect... You see this as a shortcoming in his character though, that he wants to have Inara all to himself - or is unwilling to make that sacrifice?

Not per se, but it is a flaw in a person who wants to be in a relationship with Inara. Especially, if that person has done nothing but belittle and denounce her career since they met.

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But could you date/marry a male companion (I imagine one as like a male escort..?) and accept it?

Luckily, I haven't been in the position. It is a fairly unusual one. I couldn't say. I am also not Mal. I'm not trying to praise this as a universal mode for all relationships, but as a very particular and perhaps temporary aspect of their relationship.

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Jealousy and romantic love possessiveness are very human, and I don't think as traits in Mal make him any less lovable (simple, earthy guy that he is) as far as Inara would be concerned... though it does make things difficult for her.

I am not denouncing Mal for feeling these things. I do criticize that he his making it Inara's problem by taking out his frustration on her. I think his absolute and often derrogatory rejection of her job - and we haven't REALLY seen him retract from that - is a form of disrespect for her, and for her choices. And an acceptance of her profession in the light of her dropping it or having dropped it would be pretty hollow. I don't think these two could work unless Mal goes through some actual and intense examination and appreciation of what Inara does and what it means to her. One way, the one I think is most practicable, is to accept her working while they are together.

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Also, can you be married and be a companion? I just wonder if some companion women sign up with the expectation that they will retire and settle down when they're ready, or find the right partner - after all they can only work up to a certain age anyway. So the change would be more natural for Inara than mal. And from here on, I don't expect that Inara would renounce her old ways - and I do expect that mal would become more accepting of them... perhaps realising how lucky he is...

There is no suggestion that Companions cannot marry. It may or may not be rare, but who knows?

As for retiring, it is somewhat beside the point because Inara is not really near the age where she would need to retire, or where Companions generally would, I think. It's like asking a supermodel to retire in the middle of her career even though they have a ten to fifteen years of beauty well ahead of them. It's always going to be a dramatic sacrifice.

As for Mal becoming more accepting.. well, that's easy once it doesn't cost him anything, right? I don't see this meaning much of anything and I think it could easily create a rift between the two of them, Inara feeling resentment for having given up something that Mal always claimed she is better off not doing, anyway.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Companions are glamourous examples of everything that's good, enlightened, liberated, wise, and beautiful about the Alliance. I think they'd be careful about just who can become a companion, and I suspect it's a very selective process.

I guess we will really have to agree to disagree on this. :) There is no evidence to support either position definitely, and I know I can never accept the concept that the Alliance would be allowed in any way to meddle with Guild affairs. To you, the concept is valid.

But it was a really nice discussion on this tangent. Thanks!

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:58 PM

Sorry about the stacks of posts here, don't know if there are rules here that consider that spamming or double posting. I keep coming up with new thoughts unrelated to my previous posts, and the edits wouldn't jive with the rest of it.

Clothing! Inara in trousers. Now, I can see the problem where she's just trying to impress Mal, or the only purpose of the clothing change plotwise is that Inara unintentionally impresses Mal.

But really, on a ship, and in particular on Serenity and all the rough-and-tumble situations that spring up, trousers would be pretty practical in my mind.

And historically, isn't exchanging a dress for trousers a sign of female empowerment? Joan of Arc got burned at the stake for it, as I recall.

As for whether Mal would be willing to accept Inara, companioning and all, before Inara gave up her career.... It occurs to me he already did. Or maybe almost did, but I think technically even if he didn't get to express it, he still had to reach that conclusion internally at that moment in time to even attempt to say it.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I guess we will really have to agree to disagree on this. :) There is no evidence to support either position definitely, and I know I can never accept the concept that the Alliance would be allowed in any way to meddle with Guild affairs. To you, the concept is valid.

But it was a really nice discussion on this tangent. Thanks!

Heck yeah, it was fun. :) Even with me embarrassing myself left and right, but hey. I've got to say, I've been hanging around here just to see what you'd say next today.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I wonder about age limitations. Sure, lots of men like their women young, but what about the older men who want someone who looks more their age, or who has the same sort of maturity? I guess companions make a lot of money, but would they really retire early when they might still have a client base?

My theory is that their early working years are spent acquiring a certain steady client base with whom they continue to work until it is time to retire. If new clients come in over the later years, all the better, but around that time it's probably less about glamor and more about trust and familiarity, both in terms of counseling and sexual pleasure. With the right steady clients, a Companion might keep working well to age 50 or so, though by that time it would not be her main income source anymore.

Quote:

Course, for it to really be feminist, the emphasis would have to be on the crew helping, not just Mal coming to save the day. I can particularly see little Kaylee and River shining in this scenario, and Inara too, standing up for herself.

I like this idea a LOT! :D

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Sorry about the stacks of posts here, don't know if there are rules here that consider that spamming or double posting. I keep coming up with new thoughts unrelated to my previous posts, and the edits wouldn't jive with the rest of it.

Were that a crime, this thread alone would have had me banned. I admire people who can combine different replies into one post, but it is not a gift I possess.

Quote:

And historically, isn't exchanging a dress for trousers a sign of female empowerment? Joan of Arc got burned at the stake for it, as I recall.

Well, but that was a time when women HAD to wear dresses. On Serenity, Inara is a conscious exception in her wearing of dresses. River tends to wear loose clothing and dresses, too, and they both can because they do not do messy work (Kaylee) or have a uniform to advertise (Zoe). Unless Inara takes up either, there isn't really a reason for her to wear pants and a switch to them would seem like a kind of conformism with Mal's world. I like that she has her own visual identity.

Quote:

As for whether Mal would be willing to accept Inara, companioning and all, before Inara gave up her career.... It occurs to me he already did. Or maybe almost did, but I think technically even if he didn't get to express it, he still had to reach that conclusion internally at that moment in time to even attempt to say it.

Good point! In my favor! Yay!

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Monday, January 5, 2009 6:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
As for Mal becoming more accepting.. well, that's easy once it doesn't cost him anything, right? I don't see this meaning much of anything and I think it could easily create a rift between the two of them, Inara feeling resentment for having given up something that Mal always claimed she is better off not doing, anyway.

Hmm, I never thought that Mal was really so puritanical about sex, and the companion profession - he just needed some way to express to Inara the hurt he feels every time she goes with someone else. Since he has no claims over her, he stands back and scoffs. It's like an immature outlet for his feelings, but the only one he has.

With the amount that he loves her I never saw it that he had real contempt for her profession, and her choices.

As for whether a teacher/cook role for Inara aboard serenity could be completely happily ever after for her, I don't really buy it myself, or see an alternative that might be as fulfilling. But then again I'm not sure that Joss framed their relationship with 'happily ever after' in mind...

I could imagine some bittersweet moments of real happiness together for them though, in the future.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:10 AM