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Sarahetc wrote:

if it's not got by now, it's not gonna get got.

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Hush!

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Originally posted by Succatash:
Haken was not telling me, or anyone else, how to run a website.

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not at all like mine (website) was, before it got shut down.

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Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

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Originally posted by Succatash:

Not sure what community you are in, but I belong to Firefly's community. Like I said earlier, I am not a part of anyone's secret club.

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My goal is to promote Firefly and get it back on the air.

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Fans should use artwork to promote Firefly, they should not be using Firefly to promote their own artwork.

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

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I would suggest posting a valid dislclaimer

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

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Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

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I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.

The 'lawyerly type' would be me. I am in fact a 'real' lawyer, and have been for many years.

Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)

Er, I don't know who your 'real' lawyer is, but the definition of theft is:
'A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.'

Note that the 'dishonesty' and 'permanent deprivation' elements are vital. I don't see anyone claiming that they own TPTB's copyright. So, oh dear, there goes the dishonesty element. Nor do I see anyone 'permanently depriving' TPTB of their copyright, which remains with TPTB at all times.

There's a reason why theft is an actual criminal offence and breach of copyright (mostly) is a civil matter. Could this be because they are two completely separate matters in law perhaps?

Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.

'A hefty fine'? Um, no, most copyright cases turn on damages. The person whose copyright has been breached really isn't likely to be interested in any fine, as that money goes to the state. No, what they want is money paid to them by way of damages. That's why most copyright cases are civil claims/suits only, because it's all about the money.

In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted.

I don't know which law you're quoting. Certainly in my jurisdiction there is no '40% rule'. If US law states that this is the case, well, US law will only apply to people who 'publish' in the US. You see, the Berne Convention states that you have to apply local law when trying to enforce copyright, i.e. you have to enforce the law applying where the alleged copyright holder published their offending article.

Which jurisdiction applies to items 'published' on the net hasn't been determined yet, although it's likely to be the place where the ISP is physically located. So, if TPTB want to come after someone who 'publishes' a Firefly vid in Germany, for example, then they'll have to apply German law, not US, notwithstanding that TPTB are an American corporation.

With respect, I would suggest that your 'real lawyer' friend might have explained these rather tricky issues of international law to you before sending you off to post on a bulletin board on the basis of incomplete information that could be rather misleading.


Madragora

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:


Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up

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Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it)

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Originally posted by Channain:
Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom.

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Originally posted by Succatash:

Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.

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Originally posted by Haken:
I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon.

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.

As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.


I suggest that you read posts properly before sounding off. I did not claim to have talked to 'a lawyerly type', it was Viv who made that post. I merely stated that the 'lawyer type' she had talked to was me, which does, I think rather render your sarcasm otiose.

As for what you want... Oh dear. What world do you live in? Because it certainly isn't one that I recognise. You know, the real world?

So far as I am aware the vidders do give credit where it's due to the original creator, Joss Whedon, or some variant thereof, in their disclaimer. As for the actual vids themselves, although they are clearly derivative works, the copyright to said derivative works, i.e. the vids themselves rests with the *vidders*.

Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.

Whether those vids breach Joss Whedon's copyright is a question of fact, and each vid will have to be considered on an individual basis including whether the vidder in question has 'changed it enough'. However, this is a point that should be decided by someone who actually knows copyright law, such as a judge, not someone such as yourself who is regurgitating poorly understood points of law.

*If* there is an actual breach of Joss Whedon's copyright then he has the right to insist that the offending vid[s] be taken down, ceased to be 'published', maybe (depending on the circumstances) even be destroyed. What he does *not* have the right to do is to claim ownership of those vids because they do *not belong to him*. They belong to the vidders.

As owners of the vids, then the vidders certainly have the right to control distribution. Whether they can *enforce* that right, given that the vids are derivative works and in the real world - you know, the one that most of us live in - calling attention to oneself and possibly incurring the wrath of TPTB is generally considered *not to be a good thing*, is a different matter.

*That* is why media fandom relies on certain 'rules', which pretty much boil down to:
Ask first for permission to appropriate someone else's work and if permission is denied *do not take it*.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Honestly, a child of 5 could grasp it but you seem to dismally fail to see this oh-so-obvious point.

And now I have to go and prepare for tomorrow morning's court appearance, so I will not be able to continue this *cough* illuminating *cough* debate with you further.

Mandragora

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Originally posted by hooobity:
[BIf I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.

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"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.

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And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now! Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Okay, I’m boycotting this thread right here and now!

Who’s with me?!? Come on browncoats!


Down with the evil thread!!!

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Originally posted by BKtheirregular:
From an interview with Joss Whedon on about.com (link: http://actionadventure.about.com/cs/weeklystories/a/aa041903.htm )

Q: What should fans do now that they’ll have an extra hour free in their schedule?

A: What should they do with that hour? Write fan fic.

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Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.

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I'm with you, in fact; I've... got... an idea. We hijack the tread. Post stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Love it, love you

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Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

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Originally posted by TragicStory:

I know I swore not to chime in again, but I think that if we were to all go beat the ever-loving sh_t our of the fan who gave the VCDs and started this everyone would feel much better.

I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I am not going to budge.

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You know it took like a minute for this post to load. It should be instantanious. Like a second.

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Posted by Sarahetc.
Any one have any suggestions for a list of everyday Firefly curses and short phrases? I need some lingo.

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Originally posted by BKtheirregular:

Then there’s the other level, the level that most of creative fandom operates on, in whatever genre. The people who put effort into creating music vids, photo manipulations, and fan fiction cannot look to the law to protect them; hence, creative fandom must survive under ... well, let’s just call them “gentlemen’s agreements”, with apologies to the ladies.

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Originally posted by Sarahetc:
chinese for "Hoobity, take your barbies and go home and shut the fox up already. Christ!"

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Boycotting.

That's my response.

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And get over it already hooobity. Join the happy people.

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Posted by Hooobity:
I stand with my shipmates, sir. The vidders who pulled their works, for which I find it hard to express any happiness. So you'll have to forgive me if I can't go cozying up to the people who went around slapping them yesterday.

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:
I'm going with Talrius-- happy thoughts on this thread.

Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

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Originally posted by TragicStory:
I


I didn't hand over the vcd, neither did Maniacone or succutash so I don't think they should be held resposible for the huge panic flight that ensuing.

B]

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Originally posted by Kaythryn:

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Posted by Hooobity:


Current conversation: Barbie dolls-
I painted and boiled mine. What kind of mutilation did you guys subject your stereotypical-anorexic-bleached-sex symbols to?

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Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.

regs

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Posted by Hakia:
Dodge Barbie!
Its like dodgeball but with barbies intead of balls.

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