Israel Vs. Palestine: Evil Scorecard by pizmobeach

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Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.

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Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.

Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.

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How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.

Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.

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Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.

Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.

Quote:
How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.

Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.

Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...

that was a Bush thing or

it was Clintons fault

Part of the problem really

and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?

do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.

The main thing that hung up the Dayton accords was Israels refusal of the right of folk who did move to return, and Arafat not selling them out...

Funny Israel didn't want Palestinians with money and / or educations to move back to their homeland...

BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...

I can relate a little, two of my grandparents were from Poland. During WW2 they fought the Germans and ended up in a camp. I remember wondering about the tattoos when I was little.

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:08 PM

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200911011272326
0741.html

Who will save Israel from itself?
By Mark LeVine

The Israeli government's justifications for the war are being scrutinised [GALLO/GETTY]

One by one the justifications given by Israel for its latest war in Gaza are unravelling.

The argument that this is a purely defensive war, launched only after Hamas broke a six-month ceasefire has been challenged, not just by observers in the know such as Jimmy Carter, the former US president who helped facilitate the truce, but by centre-right Israeli intelligence think tanks.

The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".

Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day.

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According to a joint Tel Aviv University-European University study, this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada, compared with only 8 per cent for Hamas and other Palestinian factions.

Indeed, the Israeli foreign ministry seems to realise that this argument is losing credibility.

During a conference call with half a dozen pro-Israel professors on Thursday, Asaf Shariv, the Consul General of Israel in New York, focused more on the importance of destroying the intricate tunnel system connecting Gaza to the Sinai.

He claimed that such tunnels were "as big as the Holland and Lincoln tunnels," and offered as proof the "fact" that lions and monkeys had been smuggled through them to a zoo in Gaza. In reality, the lions were two small cubs that were drugged, thrown in sacks, and dragged through a tunnel on their way to a private zoo.

Israel's self-image

The claim that Hamas will never accept the existence of Israel has proved equally misinformed, as Hamas leaders explicitly announce their intention to do just that in the pages of the Los Angeles Times or to any international leader or journalist who will meet with them.

With each new family, 10, 20 and 30 strong, buried under the rubble of a building in Gaza, the claim that the Israeli forces have gone out of their way to diminish civilian casualties - long a centre-piece of Israel's image as an enlightened and moral democracy - is falling apart.

Anyone with an internet connection can Google "Gaza humanitarian catastrophe" and find the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the Occupied Territories and read the thousands of pages of evidence documenting the reality of the current fighting, and the long term siege on Gaza that preceded it.

The Red Cross, normally scrupulous in its unwillingness to single out parties to a conflict for criticism, sharply criticised Israel for preventing medical personnel from reaching wounded Palestinians, some of whom remained trapped for days, slowly starving and dying in the Gazan rubble amidst their dead relatives.

Meanwhile, the United Nations has flatly denied Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters were using the UNRWA school compound bombed on January 6, in which 40 civilians were killed, to launch attacks, and has challenged Israel to prove otherwise.

War crimes admission

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

Indeed, in reviewing statements by Israeli military planners leading up to the invasion, it is clear that there was a well thought out decision to go after Gaza's civilian infrastructure - and with it, civilians.

The following quote from an interview with Major-General Gadi Eisenkot that appeared in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October, is telling:

"We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases," he said.

"This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorised."

Causing "immense damage and destruction" and considering entire villages "military bases" is absolutely prohibited under international law.

Eisenkot's description of this planning in light of what is now unfolding in Gaza is a clear admission of conspiracy and intent to commit war crimes, and when taken with the comments above, and numerous others, renders any argument by Israel that it has tried to protect civilians and is not engaging in disproportionate force unbelievable.

International laws violated

On the ground, the evidence mounts ever higher that Israel is systematically violating a host of international laws, including but not limited to Article 56 of the IV Hague Convention of 1907, the First Additional Protocol of the Geneva Convention, the Fourth Geneva Convention (more specifically known as the "Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949", the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the principles of Customary International Humanitarian Law.

None of this excuses or legitimises the firing of rockets or mortars by any Palestinian group at Israeli civilians and non-military targets.

As Richard Falk, the UN special rapporteur, declared in his most recent statement on Gaza: "It should be pointed out unambiguously that there is no legal (or moral) justification for firing rockets at civilian targets, and that such behavior is a violation of IHR, associated with the right to life, as well as constitutes a war crime."

By the same logic, however, Israel does not have the right to use such attacks as an excuse to launch an all-out assault on the entire population of Gaza.

In this context, even Israel's suffering from the constant barrage of rockets is hard to pay due attention to when the numbers of dead and wounded on each side are counted. Any sense of proportion is impossible to sustain with such a calculus.

'Rogue' state

Israeli commentators and scholars, self-described "loyal" Zionists who served proudly in the army in wars past, are now publicly describing their country, in the words of Oxford University professor Avi Shlaim, as a "rogue" and gangster" state led by "completely unscrupulous leaders".

Gazans inspect the damage after an air strike hit a mosque [GALLO/GETTY]
Neve Gordon, a politics professor at Ben Gurion University, has declared that Israel's actions in Gaza are like "raising animals for slaughter on a farm" and represent a "bizarre new moral element" in warfare.

"The moral voice of restraint has been left behind ... Everything is permitted" against Palestinians, writes a disgusted Haaretz columnist, Gideon Levy.

Fellow Haaretz columnist and daughter of Holocaust survivors, Amira Haas writes of her late parents disgust at how Israeli leaders justified Israel's wars with a "language laundromat" aimed at redefining reality and Israel's moral compass. "Lucky my parents aren't alive to see this," she exclaimed.

Around the world people are beginning to compare Israel's attack on Gaza, which after the 2005 withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlers was turned literally into the world's largest prison, to the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Extremist Muslims are using internet forums to collect names and addresses of prominent European Jews with the goal, it seems clear, of assassinating them in retaliation for Israel's actions in Gaza.

Al-Qaeda is attempting to exploit this crisis to gain a foothold in Gaza and Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria, as well as through attacking Jewish communities globally.

Iran's defiance of both Israel and its main sponsor, the US, is winning it increasing sympathy with each passing day.

Democratic values eroded

Inside Israel, the violence will continue to erode both democratic values in the Jewish community, and any acceptance of the Jewish state's legitimacy in the eyes of its Palestinian citizens.

And yet in the US - at least in Washington and in the offices of the mainstream Jewish organisations - the chorus of support for Israel's war on Gaza continues to sing in tight harmony with official Israeli policy, seemingly deaf to the fact that they have become so out of tune with the reality exploding around them.

At my university, UCI, where last summer Jewish and Muslim students organised a trip together through the occupied territories and Israel so they could see with their own eyes the realities there, old battle lines are being redrawn.

The Anteaters for Israel, the college pro-Israel group at the University of California, Irvine, sent out an urgent email to the community explaining that, "Over the past week, increasing amounts of evidence lead us to believe that Hamas is largely responsible for any alleged humanitarian crisis in Gaza".

I have no idea who the "us" is that is referred to in the appeal, although I am sure that the membership of that group is shrinking.

Indeed, one of the sad facts of this latest tragedy is that with each claim publicly refuted by facts on the ground, more and more Americans, including Jews, are refusing to trust the assertions of Israeli and American Jewish leaders.

Trap

Even worse, in the Arab/Muslim world, the horrific images pouring out of Gaza daily are allowing preachers and politicians to deploy well-worn yet still dangerous and inciteful stereotypes against Jews as they rally the masses against Israel - and through it - their own governments.

What is most frightening is that the most important of Israel's so-called friends, the US political establishment and the mainstream Jewish leadership, seem clueless to the devastating trap that Israel has led itself into - in good measure with their indulgence and even help.

It is one that threatens the country's existence far more than any Qassam rockets, with their 0.4 per cent kill rate; even more than the disastrous 2006 invasion of southern Lebanon, which by weakening Israel's deterrence capability in some measure made this war inevitable.

First, it is clear that Israel cannot destroy Hamas, it cannot stop the rockets unless it agrees to a truce that will go far to meeting the primary demand of Hamas - an end to the siege.

Merely by surviving (and it surely will survive) Hamas, like Hezbollah in 2006, will have won.

Support for the war remains high in Israel[GALLO/GETTY]
Israel is succeeding in doing little more than creating another generation of Palestinians with hearts filled with rage and a need for revenge.

Second, Israel's main patron, the US, along with the conservative Arab autocracies and monarchies that are its only allies left in the Muslim world, are losing whatever crumbs of legitimacy they still had with their young and angry populations.

The weaker the US and its axis becomes in the Middle East, the more precarious becomes Israel's long-term security. Indeed, any chance that the US could convince the Muslim world to pressure Iran to give up its quest for nuclear weapons has been buried in Gaza.

Third, as Israel brutalises Palestinians, it brutalises its own people. You cannot occupy another people and engage in violence against them at this scale without doing even greater damage to your soul.

The high incidence of violent crimes committed by veterans returning from combat duty in Iraq is but one example of how the violence of occupation and war eat away at people's moral centre.

While in the US only a small fraction of the population participates in war; in Israel, most able-bodied men end up participating.

The effects of the latest violence perpetrated against Palestinians upon the collective Israeli soul is incalculable; the notion that it can survive as an "ethnocracy" - favouring one ethnic group, Jews, yet by and large democratic - is becoming a fiction.

Violence-as-power

Who will save Israel from herself?

Israelis are clearly incapable. Their addiction as a society to the illusion of violence-as-power has reached the level of collective mental illness.

As Haaretz reporter Yossi Melman described it on January 10, "Israel has created an image of itself of a madman that has lost it".

Not Palestinians, too many of whom have fallen prey to the same condition.

Not the Middle East Quartet, the European Union, the United Nations, or the Arab League, all of whom are utterly powerless to influence Israeli policy.

Not the organised Jewish leadership in the US and Europe, who are even more blind to what is happening than most Israelis, who at least allow internal debate about the wisdom of their government's policies.

Not the growing progressive Jewish community, which will need years to achieve enough social and political power to challenge the status quo.

And not senior American politicians and policy-makers who are either unwilling to risk alienating American Jewish voters, or have been so brainwashed by the constant barrage of propaganda put out by the "Israel Lobby" that they are incapable of reaching an independent judgment about the conflict.

During the US presidential race, Barack Obama was ridiculed for being a messiah-like figure. The idea does not sound so funny now. It is hard to imagine anyone less saving Israel, the Palestinians, and the world from another four years of mindless violence.

Update: In a further challenge to the democratic process in Israel, on January 12, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that the Central Elections Committee had voted overwhelmingly to bar Arab-led parties from participating in the upcoming parliamentary elections.

Also, there are reports that the claim that extremist Muslims are using the internet to collect names and addresses of prominent British Jews in order to attack them, might in fact have been a hoax.

Mark LeVine is a professor of Middle East history at the University of California, Irvine, and is the author of Heavy Metal Islam: Rock, Resistance, and the Struggle for the Soul of Islam and the soon to be published An Impossible Peace: Israel/Palestine Since 1989.

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:31 PM

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Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...

People are sheep. Bush is Clinton is Bush.

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and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?

Yes, I tend to ignore the rules. to see how far, click on the I Intend to Misbehave thread and then click through the link on the third post.

Mr. Anderson, you feel that you are special, that somehow the rules don't apply to you.

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do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.

They're acting too much like humans. A common fieldmouse has more sense.

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Israel

I'm familiar with the situation, and I skimmed the article. I agree basically that the Israelis are destroying the international Jewish image. Of course, it's just Ohlmert trying to save his ass, and the whole govt. is a sham. And sure, the PA govt. is undoubtedly a sham also, maybe govt. is just a sham.

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BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...

Likewise, seems yours, like mine, followed my earlier comment "Didn't have to be jewish, all you had to be was in the way."

Jewish or not, no one cared, it was all about the labor camps and the corporations that ran them wanting more slaves. If not for that, the Germans would have probably followed through on their plan to deport the jews to Israel. It took three visits to Israel to get the Zionist authorities (they weren't technically Israeli authorities yet, it was still Palestine) to accept the 600,000 German jews as immigrants. This goes back to your who wants refugees idea.

It's really universal, not just on education and wealth. No one wants refugees. Populations have to move one family at a time, someone becomes a student at a university or something, etc.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Mind you look at some past acts...

Well, it's nice to see that you've dropped any pretense of balance and come out as a flaming anti-semite at last.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.

Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?

Why is it that whenever someone points out the damn Izzies don't have any moral high ground when it comes to terrorism that someone screams anti-semitism - I could give a rats ass what religion or ethnicity they are, any of em, it doesn't make this kind of crap acceptable by any means.

Both sides are dickheads, we know this, lets not pretend that ain't the truth, my bitch is that one set of them has a massive edge on the other causing the exact set of conditions they once suffered under, and here we are propping that bullshit up with my tax dime.

I got *issues* with that, and all the other dickheads on the planet we shovel money at (who, you'll notice all eventually turn on us a'la Saddam) that was originally taken from my by threat of force and violence.

You take money from a live and let live kinda dude, by threat of violence/incarceration and then use it to finance slaughter and repression worldwide, it's gonna piss him off no matter who's doin it - do you think I like Papa Doc and his fucking goons any better ?

Am I then a racist for not liking *that* set of murderous pricks just cause they happen to be darker than me ?

You can hate folks for being dickheads without race, religion or even politics being a single part of it - since when have we cared about any of the former when some asshole decides to have a cellphone conversation in the middle of a movie you paid to see ?

It's their ACTIONS that make them an asshole, and so it is here - they're being assholes, they've been assholes for years, and I am sick and tired of apologists making excuses for any of em, especially the ones making wanton slaughter and destruction on a people who's land they're stealing - an official policy, helpfully financed by money robbed from ME.

So don't go hiding behind that tired ole canard when someone shines the cold light of reality on your carefully tended fantasies and they happen to disintigrate into their component parts of myth and imagination, either refute it, or argue the point if you can, but hiding behind false accusations and phony outrage just makes you look like an apologist with no real argument.

You wanna try telling us Israel did NOT do that historically proven, and often fully-admitted, stuff above ? that they're NOT just as much terrorists themselves as anyone they love to fling that beloved accusation at ?

Cause I'd like for once to see *some* rational explaination of their actions in detail that didn't come from me - I know why they did some of it, but past a certain point there wasn't any *need* to act in that fashion, and yet they continued to do so, care to explain that away ?

Or you could just leave it at hiding behind a trite accusation backed by phony outrage to avoid having to argue the point...

Up to you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:50 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Bin Laden, on Tape, Urges Holy War Over Gaza

Wed Jan 14th

Mr. Potato Head "Re-re-resurfaces"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html?_r=1
&ref=world

from the article:

“There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God,” Mr. bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, according to The Associated Press. “The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades.”

Given imho that we need an ally in that region, and given this kind of behaviour, who you gonna pick if not Israel?

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.

Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?

Fremd. Read the whole article Gino quoted.

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm

If it was just critical of the Israeli regime, I'd have no trouble with it, aside from its anonymous author and the reliability of the site it's posted on.

However, it attacks not just the Israeli regime, but the Jewish people as a whole. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:05 AM

These threads, no offense to the intelligent people who post them and on them, seem counter productive.

It doesn't really matter that much which side is more wrong, there's not going to be any change without diplomatic intervention, and at the moment, only Obama, or tptb forbid, Ms. Clinton can take that up.

It's interesting to discuss, but we do spend to spend a fair amount of time lobbing bombs at one another, and that time could be better spent. Not to mention, we seem to have broken River in the process. Maybe she'll recover and go back to being her old self. If she's beyond repair, then we'll have to go fetch another one.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:46 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
These threads, no offense to the intelligent people who post them and on them, seem counter productive.

It doesn't really matter that much which side is more wrong, there's not going to be any change without diplomatic intervention, and at the moment, only Obama, or tptb forbid, Ms. Clinton can take that up.

It's interesting to discuss, but we do spend to spend a fair amount of time lobbing bombs at one another, and that time could be better spent. Not to mention, we seem to have broken River in the process. Maybe she'll recover and go back to being her old self. If she's beyond repair, then we'll have to go fetch another one.

Counter productive to whom? This thread was started to get away from the spewfest that was going on about this topic elsewhere. So far it's been very civil and informative, no bombs lobbed and no blood or tears spilled and no naughty words.
The only problem is trying to read through all the stuff Gino posts.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:21 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

You're not trying to stir up trouble on my happy thread are you?

It all comes back plenty of blame for both sides, ages of bad intentions. They will be most likely brought to some kind of bargaining table and a cease fire by someone who doesn't have too much negative baggage yet (actually Egypt might be able to, but not the UN) - most likely B.O.
Amidst all of this suckage there's a huge opportunity to broadcast a LOUD signal of who he is and how he intends to handle world affairs.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Mind you look at some past acts...

Well, it's nice to see that you've dropped any pretense of balance and come out as a flaming anti-semite at last.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

History isn't balance ?

or are you denying these things happened Geez

The way I see it you are standing judgement on one groups actions without even questioning the actions of the other group

shall I call you a bigot ?

I would rather not go there

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

or we wait until Iran builds some nukes, and we can see if that creates a level playing field.

Nothing brings out honest negotiation like fear of losing.

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Bin Laden, on Tape, Urges Holy War Over Gaza

Wed Jan 14th

Mr. Potato Head "Re-re-resurfaces"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html?_r=1
&ref=world

from the article:

“There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God,” Mr. bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, according to The Associated Press. “The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades.”

Given imho that we need an ally in that region, and given this kind of behaviour, who you gonna pick if not Israel?

Iraq?

I thought they were supposed to be our ally in the region, that bright shining beacon of democracy. After all, they greeted us as liberators, right?

And Bin Laden is a perfect example of Frem's earlier comment about some people just being assholes for the sake of being assholes.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You're not trying to stir up trouble on my happy thread are you?

It all comes back plenty of blame for both sides, ages of bad intentions

I'm not talking about BLAME. I'm talking about... WHO HAS THE POWER TO MAKE THIS RIGHT?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yeah, but OBL is a dead asshole, and therefore of little concern to me - he's been dead since like December 01, but the powers that be wanna keep him in play as just another emmanuel goldstein.

As for the stuff Geeze pointed out - I am well aware that ole Jeffie boy has some of the same issues PN does in regards to the topic, but from a purely historical/evidence standpoint, the folks who wound up running the state of israel did indeed do that shit, and never seem to get called on it when they cry howl and whine about someone else doing it to them.

And I wouldn't really reccommend Egypt as peacemaker given that they've been on the recieving end of a few too many israeli excesses themselves to be exactly rational about it - and while arguably a more interested party since a stable middle east is of value to them, nobody trusts the russians either, or us, both of which have a lot to do with afghanistan, although not limited to that.

It's a real hassle finding an honest broker when everyones hands are so dirty, and the UN is both fairly corrupt and near powerless - were that not the case, or if that could be mitigated, I'd reccomend sending in a UN force with a far more active ROE and a BIG stick of troops backed up by hague observers at platoon level and as many independant media as I could convince to go there.

But again, that'd cost money and resources that nobody seems willing to invest in the regions stability - but seem all too eager to invest in it's destabilisation because they've crapped on everyone around so long they're scared that if they ever do get their shit together they might be considering payback.

Kind of a stupid thought, that is, since it evidences a total lack of understanding about the territorial nature of the cultures involved - they'll chase you off their land with fire and fury, sure... but ain't too keen on the idea of anything past that cause it leaves their own land undefended and isn't worth the trouble, that mindset hearkens back to a certain tribalism within their roots, and not understanding this is a big part of why peace efforts by outsiders in the middle east so often fail.

Most brawls over there come down to the simple concept of "get off MY land" - which given israels continous border expansion pushing the palestinians into a smaller and smaller area, is pissing *everyone* over there off, remove everything else, and that right there is the very root of the problem.

Every foot of palestinian land taken by force is an outright act of war, whether we acknowledge this or not, and regardless of all else, this will NOT stop until the land grabbing does, period.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:59 PM

Quote:
The only problem is trying to read through all the stuff Gino posts.

ya, that's the sort of time bomb i meant, no offense Gino, it's not you specifically, these threads are full of long posts. We're all spending an awful lot of time nitpicking a war we have no power over and understand pretty well.

Oh, for the hoffer thread. I might create it. It will get it's own little logo to indicate that all posts <200 words, or otherwise ignored until edited. :)

Oh, and check out that avatar magic:
They used to be interchangeable, but now Mike is clearly a sniper kitten with a starfish, and Frem is a vengeful anime hottie. :)

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:00 PM

KWICKO

Just to insert a tiny bit of levity into this heated debate...

One of the gun websites I was on had a thread about the Romak PSL "sniper" rifle, and someone mentioned that Hamas snipers are using the Romanian-built PSL - to which the first reply was, "Funny - Israeli snipers are using F-16s with smart bombs."

It's so... wrong. But still I had a chortle.

But it kinda points up what Signy's talking about - one side has all the REAL weapons, and seems much more interested in using those than in utilizing any kind of diplomacy. Both sides apparently agree with Carl von Clausewitz, author of On War, in which he stated that "war is the continuation of state policy by other means."

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually, pondering the avatar issue, DT...

The irony of it - Lucy is (if you've ever seen Elfen Lied) a lot like israel in her actions, that whole amazingly disproportionate response thing.

I mean, she has her reasons, but that don't make her any less a monster for it.
(and far worse is that she seems to get off on it!)

One of the mysteries of life I'd like to solve in my lifetime is to find out if there really is a path of redemption for those so far gone down that road, something David Drake addressed in the book Redliners.

Preventing things before that is of course the best solution, but what if we *could* fix the broken ones ?

Something to think about.

-Frem
*Redliners is available at the Baen Free Library for those interested, in several formats complete with reader software.
http://www.baen.com/library/

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:29 PM

KWICKO

Quote:

One of the mysteries of life I'd like to solve in my lifetime is to find out if there really is a path of redemption for those so far gone down that road, something David Drake addressed in the book Redliners.

Wasn't that kind of the whole premise of Angel? The fight to redeem yourself from being the worst of the worst?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:10 PM

Redemption is an interesting an ambiguous notion. I mean, I don't believe in good and evil. I'm totally non-violent, and I write stories that are more violent than anything I've ever read. I think it's a karmic balance. I deal a lot with characters of this Lucy type, makes me want to see elvenlied.

Angel is a simplistic storyline. Joss does characters well. Firefly was the first really good solid arc attempt, I'm not sure BDM carried it through, but there was a lot more world creation.

I think Frem is talking about more sincere character complexity. One of the major characters in the story I'm writing goes down that road very very very far. Actually, two characters do, but one that I've been focusing on. I think if someone else were writing the story, she'd just be the arch villain and the mindless good guys would saddle up in words of one syllable to destroy her. But I am so-o-o pleased at the moment with her character arc.

Characters evolve. They develop, change, and yet, there's a consistent thread.

I get really annoyed with the magical redemption. It's like the way my sister gets with medical miracle cures. I just want to throw the book/dvd/etc. The sudden unexplainable reversal is just as bad, like Xena, suddenly, oh, I just flipped over a card that says "You are now Good."

But that doesn't mean that it's a road from evil to good.

Do you write? Fiction I mean.

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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:13 PM

ODESSA762

This might explain why the Izzy's target 'civilian vehicles' and 'red cross vehicles' now-&-then:

http://current.com/items/89686892/why_does_israel_target_ambulances_ca
rrying_civilians_must_see_video_of_zionist_oppression_included.htm

The fact of the matter is this ... if Hamas and the other assholes would just stop lobbing rockets/mortars/whatever into Israel, and if they would agree to a "Live & Let Live" policy, the embargos & blockades would end. The Izzy's would let Gaza be. Hamas just can't handle that. Does anyone think the Izzy's really WANT to be involved in Gaza? As someone else stated earlier, Hamas is the party that always breaks the truce...and the Izzy's eventually HAVE to respond.

The struggle going on between these two nations is a sort of Darwinism...nature should just be allowed to take it's course...and the Izzy's should just get on with it & get it over with. They should just crush Hamas completely. If the Izzy's decide to really hammer Hamas/Palestine, no other nation/group in that region is in a position to do anything to stop them. Hell, the Egyptians would help, lol.

The US should not provide all kinds of financial aid to the Izzy's, though. On the other hand, the US spends all kinds of money all over the region, no just on Israel. The US should just pick a side & get on with it as well. Perhaps the US should just cut them all off and let the chips fall where they may, screw it.

The whole situation is tiresome, pathetic, infuriating & disgusting.

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Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:03 AM