Firefly Show Bible? by CaptBaggytrousers

FIREFLY SCRIPTS

Firefly Show Bible?

POSTED BY: CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS
UPDATED: Saturday, March 25, 2006 12:55
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Monday, April 28, 2003 5:55 PM

Since we've been lucky enough to see scripts from Firefly, is there any chance the Series Bible for the shows' writers is floating around in cyberspace? That's something I would much like to see. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:55 AM

ZEKE023

what exactly do you mean "Firefly Show Bible?"

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:13 AM

DRAKON

what exactly do you mean "Firefly Show Bible?"

In television, a book is written up for the authors that has such details, using Firefly as an example, Wash's name, the names and types of places the various planets, how various ship systems work, and sometimes an overall story arc. All the stuff a writer for an episode would need to know not to turn in a script that is completely unsuitable.

I have heard that an early version of "City on the Edge of Forever" had Kirk and the Enterprise involved in drug smuggling. This early version needed reworking because of this and other flaws that would be aleivated had Ellison a bible for TOS.

"My kind of stupid"

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 5:38 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Thanks, Drakon! That's exactly what I meant by a show bible. I would love to see Firefly's.

And the story behind the Ellison script has been wildly distorted over the years. Yes, there was no bible for the original Star Trek, and a lotof things were left up to the writers of the individual episodes to make up (accounting for the many inconsistencies in the early years, i.e. what year/century the show was set, what the name of the organization that the Enterprise represented was. All these things came later).

Anyway, Ellison's orignal script is available in book form, with lengthy diatribes about how the episode came about, the changes that were made to it, and how he was so unhappy with the version that finally aired he wanted his name taken off and his psuedonym Cordwainer Bird ("giving them the Bird") used. His script is vastly superior to the episode that aired, and it's my favorite episode of Star Trek.

History repeats the old conceits

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 5:50 AM

DRAKON

I want the show's bible too. Just started attempting to write fan fic, and it would of great help, (along with a chinese swearing dictionary) I have heard tell that the map that is used has been auctioned off on E-bay, but whoever bought it has not scanned it and posted it yet.

I have a bible for TNG second(?) season. It is, as I understand it, customary to update these things from time to time. Thanks for the correction concerning Ellison's script.

"My kind of stupid"

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:38 AM

SUCCATASH

Ah, now I understand what's going on. At first, I thought this thread was about Saffron's bible.

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:21 AM

MELEAUX

saffrons bible? I wish
"Whoa, good bible!"
Do you thinkk Book's bible is like the King James bible of today?

meleaux

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:26 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

What, mistranslated from Hebrew and Latin? Most likely.

History repeats the old conceits

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:34 AM

MELEAUX

ouch cappy is a cynic?

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:06 AM

LJC

Not every show starts out with a bible--a lot of times, they're put together as the second season starts. ST:TNG started off with a bible (which they revised each year), but TOS didn't. And often times, a bible that you start with doesn't have much more than what a press kit would--character bios, and a production synopsis. From what I remember, a lot of times it's the script co-ordinator who ends up doing it (at least, on some of the shows where I've known script co-ordinators--like Due South and Highlander) and just has character bios and production synopses of the first season, for reference.

When you've got a full staff, rather than taking a lot of freelance scripts, it's often much easier to just reference scripts or episodes. Especially early on, when you've only got 6, 13, or 22 scripts to deal with.

But personally? I think bibles are WAY useful. I've actually seen some shows end up using fan websites or FAQs (Highlander actually used the timeline/FAQ that the fans put together to keep the dates on teh flashbacks straight, and Nikita used to send their freelance writers to one of the fan sites which had a "The Story Thus Far" page with character bios and facts).

This site has some excellent resources geared towards fan fiction authors, as does "Whoa, Good Myth" (firefly.shriftweb.com) and Browncoats.com

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:09 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Well, yes, but I'm not trying to be one in this instance. More of a wiseass.

Just remember what happened when when River took the symbols out of context: they turned into paper.

History repeats the old conceits

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:14 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
What, mistranslated from Hebrew and Latin? Most likely.

History repeats the old conceits

Oh what I would give for a good translation, as they go from older texts, and less biased translations it becomes vastly different. The origin of the term Lucifer is not in reference to a fallen angel but rather a Babylonian prince (the term is Latin, but the Hebrew text it was put in is about a Babylonian prince.) There are almost no references to Hell (perhaps none at all), it never says Judas betrayed Jesus, and it does say Jesus asked Judas to die with him (Judas later commits suicide.) It goes on like that, it is really quite fascinating.

Anyway, a show bible would be very fun. It would probably include things like Book’s past, and the extent (and thus limits of) River’s psychic abilities.

What’s this about a map? Anyone have any more information?

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:33 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Thanks for the heads up on those Biblical discrepencies, Chris. I'd never heard those. Very interesting.

As for a Firelfy bible, I don't think it would go into unrevealed backstories on the characters. The few writer's bibles I've read have been a good deal more general. It would more likely be things we Browncoats, having seen every episode, would already be aware of. What interests me is how characters and situations might have originally been conceived and how they changed with the influence of production and the actors who played them. Also it would possibly settle the "one star system or many?" debate once and for all.

History repeats the old conceits

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Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:35 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Well it would have to say the extent of what Book could know/reveal, but probably in general terms.

I think it would have to go into depth about River, there have to be rules about psychics, for example can she see the future? We haven’t seen solid evidence that she can (we’ve seen evidence that she might, but nothing solid) so a writer has to know if she can see the future. We’ve seen limits to what she can tell (she didn’t know Simon would jump Jubal) so there have to be rules governing what a write can and can’t have her do, which would be in the bible.

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:01 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Well it would have to say the extent of what Book could know/reveal, but probably in general terms.

I think it would have to go into depth about River...

Oh, you'd be surprised how little the writer's bibles for a TV series actually reveal about the characters. Mainly, so that WHEN some enterprising soul releases it on the internet, it won't reveal anything about where the ultimate story arch (if any) is going--but that's just my theory. I've seen fan fic writers guides with more guts to them.

Considering how bare bones they are, I'm thinking the "bibles" are initially written at the start of a show as a base of reference and launching point for the writers. After that, the writers keep their own journals with more detailed information, or just store it in their heads. Maybe Joss is the bible - as in he's the only one who really knows how it's going to turn out. Chances are pretty good the writers were just making it up as they went along, working with past info, then waiting for the big reveal at the writers meeting when Joss sits down with them and says "yes do that...no...definitely no...yes, but not yet."

I found the way, by the sound of your voice--so many things to say.
These are only words. Now I've only words. Once there was a choice.
David Sylvian

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:16 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
What, mistranslated from Hebrew and Latin? Most likely.

History repeats the old conceits

Oh what I would give for a good translation, as they go from older texts, and less biased translations it becomes vastly different. The origin of the term Lucifer is not in reference to a fallen angel but rather a Babylonian prince (the term is Latin, but the Hebrew text it was put in is about a Babylonian prince.) There are almost no references to Hell (perhaps none at all), it never says Judas betrayed Jesus, and it does say Jesus asked Judas to die with him (Judas later commits suicide.) It goes on like that, it is really quite fascinating.

Anyway, a show bible would be very fun. It would probably include things like Book’s past, and the extent (and thus limits of) River’s psychic abilities.

What’s this about a map? Anyone have any more information?

Do you believe what you write?

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:52 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Do you believe what you write?

In what regard? Are you talking about what I said about Lucifer? Lucifer means Venus (also known as the morning star) in Latin. Or are you talking about Jesus and Judas? It never says that Judas betrayed Jesus, that doesn’t mean he didn’t. It just means that it never says it. What it says is something more akin to “hand over”, and seeing as how it was Jesus’ plan (in accordance with prophecies and god’s plan) to be handed over that might mean that it wasn’t a betrayal. Which is not to say that it wasn’t, no one can possibly know what was going through the minds’ of Jesus and Judas.

The next bit is where Jesus said spoke of the cup of death, and asked if any of the others would drink it with him, none said yes but they all died. Of course Jesus didn’t ask Judas to kill himself, it never says that. In fact the only thing that it does say that we can really use to interpret this situation one way or the other is that Jesus called Judas friend, Judas was the only one to get this honor (might not be in certain translations.) On the other hand he could have been being ironic or sarcastic.

That’s it.

Thirty pieces of silver was necessary, he had to take them in accordance with the laws of the time (funny law, I would think that if someone didn’t want to be paid it would be no problem) and he gave them back.

So what are you asking?

I’ll try to answer even though I’m not totally sure.

I believe that the name Lucifer is in reference to a Babylonian prince.
I believe that more accurate translations of the Bible have fewer references to Hell, instead saying grave, Gehenna (a lush valley), or another word.
I believe that the Bible never explicitly says Judas betrayed Jesus. I chose to wait until I’m dead to decide if Judas really did betray Jesus.
I believe that Jesus asked if anyone else would be willing to die with him, not asking them to commit suicide but instead asking them to stand up for Christianity rather than deny involvement like Peter did.

I think that covers everything.

Now might be a good time to add that I’m a dirty heathen who thinks that God doesn’t really care which religion, if any, someone believes in. I think that god lets us believe what we will believe and is more concerned with who we are, and what kind of a person we are. I believe that the Bible is right when it says that god does not want one to be lost, and I think god gets what he (or she or it) wants. I can’t conceive of how some can be rehabilitated, Hitler and Stalin come to mind, but I think god can do it, and will.

Back to the topic of the thread, I guess you guys are right, they would have if be very bare bones if at all. It probably was a situation of going up to Joss and asking if you’re not sure about something. It just seems to me like you would have to know things like say Book doesn’t know about government things that are this recent, or River can’t see into the future. You know just basic guidelines that might give some idea of the background. But it looks like you guys know more about this than me so I’ll take you word.

If there is a bible what do you think would be in it? It’s my understanding that for a Sci Fi show it usually has technical stuff, but Firefly doesn’t really get into that much.

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Friday, July 18, 2003 5:13 PM

IGNATIUSREILLY

I thought Gehenna was the smouldering rubbish heap outside Jerusalem.

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Sunday, July 20, 2003 7:56 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Nope, it's nice now. There was a prophecy that said it would become nice, that makes me wonder even when I’m in an atheistic stupor.

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Sunday, December 21, 2003 6:04 PM

ZACHSMIND

Although not the bible for the series, one working resource on the Web for collecting information about all Whedon's projects is over at http://www.whedonesque.com/wiki

"You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."

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Monday, February 2, 2004 2:05 PM

RICHARD

Can anyone tell me where I can find the Firefly scripts??
thanks.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 10:20 AM

PUMAMANREDUX

place to find Firefly fan transcripts:

http://twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/index.html

a written but unused Firefly script can be found here:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=45

Drama is life with the dull bits cut out. (Alfred Hitchcock)

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Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:42 PM

GHOYLE1

I dunno where anybody got the idea that TOS didn't have a bible, but there was one. Check "The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen Whitfield. Also, there were copies of the bible on sale from a very early time, from Lincoln Enterprises, Gene Roddenberry's merchandising company. I've seen a couple of copies personally.

Guy Hoyle

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Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:44 PM

GHOYLE1

Lucifer is from the Latin phrase "lux fare", meaning "bearer of the light".

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Saturday, April 10, 2004 6:36 PM

BEATLE

Let us pray...

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Saturday, April 10, 2004 6:59 PM

LTNOWIS

Sorry to continue the off-topicness, but I'm pretty sure that the Episcopal belief is that Hell's not a place where you are in constant agony, but just where you're separated from God. While that's infinitely undesirable, it won't be to different than my life.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 6:19 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

I doubt they would release the shows bible (if there is one) because it could give away certain facts that have not been revealed to us yet, that Joss may want to put into the movie, or into the next television series (knock on wood!)

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:07 AM

LAILING

Actually, from what I understand of shows' bibles (I read Making of Star Trek, too, and I believe I saw a Next Gen one at a con many moons ago [but my memory's like a seive these days]), Show's bibles are usually just a synopsis, with character bios and some description of locales they have or may visit. There may be some comments like: "Book has knowledge of the military, but from where has not been revealed." This is so writers have character traits they can write about, but still can't reveal something important too soon, or if the fact hasn't been decided yet (esp. if the producers are making it up as they go) - unless it's a solicited script and the producers specifically WANT something revealed. (However, I remember there was a big controversy some years ago about a fact revealed in a Babylon 5 comic that wasn't supposed to come out, yet. No more comics were done after - so I could be wrong.)
As for the Christian Bible - here's some things I've heard & read: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is a mistranslation. The Greek word should translate as "poisoner". Satan is from the Hebrew "zatan" meaning "adversary". He is never actually described (no, no pitchfork or tail). Jesus was not born Dec. 25, but probably sometime in Sept. of 3 B.C. (Calculated by an alignment of planets visible night & day from April to Oct. of that year combined with when the census was taken & when Herod ruled.) Dec. 25 is because it proved impossible to make the pagans stop celebrating Winter Solstice. (In fact, most of our Christmas traditions, are pagan: evergreen tree a sign of everlasting life from Germany, lights on the tree from Poland, etc.) I'm sure those of us who's studied or even just read about Bible history could go on and on. But I'll stop here.

"They've gone to *plaid*!"

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:17 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Well LaiLing, I think you're going to a special Hell - the one with booze and dancing girls

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:25 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
Anyway, Ellison's orignal script is available in book form, with lengthy diatribes about how the episode came about, the changes that were made to it, and how he was so unhappy with the version that finally aired he wanted his name taken off and his psuedonym Cordwainer Bird ("giving them the Bird") used. His script is vastly superior to the episode that aired, and it's my favorite episode of Star Trek.

And of course, its his script and not the episode that won the Hugo (though the fact the filmed episode didn't turn out too badly probably helped a great deal).

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, June 28, 2004 1:49 PM

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT

You know, in certain Orthodox Christian traditions(Russian or Greek or some other autonomous Orthodox body, I can't quite remember)
Judas and Pontus Pilate are saints who are seen merely as those who followed Gods will and who did the "dirty work" of betraying the Messiah (Judas) and sending the Messiah to the cross(Pilate).

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Monday, June 28, 2004 11:42 PM

RELFEXIVE

There's just so much stuff that's mistranslated, revised, added, adapted, reinterpreted and misquoted that once you start you might never stop...

And it's funny how most of the wrong/changed/reinterpreted stuff is to the detriment of people the Church doesn't like, or just to people's happiness and free will in general, while greatly benefiting the Church itself.

Handy that.

And Satan/Lucifer as "The Devil" was, of course, created in the Middle Ages as a way to scare peasants into doing what the Church wanted them to do.

SUPPLEMENTAL: Oh, and a show bible for Firefly would be cool, too, but I doubt it exists outside of the people in charge. If it was on the net somewhere we'd all know by now.

Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so... very... pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Tuesday, June 29, 2004 9:57 AM

LAILING

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Well LaiLing, I think you're going to a special Hell - the one with booze and dancing girls

As a bi-sexual woman, I thank you. (Though I'm not much of a drinker...

)

"They've gone to *plaid*!"

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Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:28 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by LaiLing:
As a bi-sexual woman, I thank you. (Though I'm not much of a drinker... )

'K. I'm sure they got boy-whores, too.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:59 PM

LAILING

Shiny - 'cause...sometimes you feel like a nut...sometimes you don't!

"They've gone to *plaid*!"

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Thursday, July 29, 2004 5:06 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
Anyway, Ellison's orignal script ...(snip)...

And of course, its his script and not the episode that won the Hugo (though the fact the filmed episode didn't turn out too badly probably helped a great deal).

"City On the Edge of Forever" won for Dramatic Presentation, meaning the episode -- not the script. The script would not have been eligible for a Hugo that year, as it had not been published in book form during the previous calendar year.

Ya, I know they gave the award to Harlan, but this was only the second year for a Dramatic Presentation award, things were still a tad ad hoc, and Harlan was a big name (he won two other Hugos that year). Still, according to the rules on the ballot, it was the aired episode that was nominated.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Dark Star Orchestra, "Estimated Prophet", from "Thunder & Lightnin'"

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Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:48 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
"City On the Edge of Forever" won for Dramatic Presentation, meaning the episode -- not the script. The script would not have been eligible for a Hugo that year, as it had not been published in book form during the previous calendar year.

My fault - mixed up the Writer's Guild Award, which was based on the original screenplay.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 2:15 PM

NOVA

The only Bible I've found relating to a show is the Babylon 5 spinoff Crusade, unfortunately it was in Russian and I've yet to properly translate it.

A Firefly Bible would be good to see. I'd laugh if it said "by the way, don't include anything in the way of Western stylings".

It would most likely include possibly synopses for episodes for the end of the first season. We may have seen resolutions to a couple of storylines, and maybe found out where River was going, or where Book came from.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 2:15 PM

FORRESTER11

With all due respect. I have in the original
languages the Textus Receptus and Nestle Alland
New Testaments in the Greek. And the Majoretic
OT in the Hebrew and Septuagint OT in the Greek.
The Latin Vulgate you allude to is not as accurate
and accepted as the texts I mention above.
Sorry you are wrong on all accounts.

Biblical
Scholar

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Friday, October 29, 2004 7:01 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Not to get too far into the (Christian) biblical topic, but I'd like to point out that the actual birthdate of Jesus couldn't be December 25th. Why? Because "there were shepherds abiding in the fields;" grazing their flock, in other words.

The one time of the year when shepherds wouldn't be grazing their sheep would be the dead of winter.

It's one of those obvious answers to a controversial question; like whether the Shroud of Turin is Christ's burial cloth or not. If you believe in the accuracy of the bible, it can't be. Why? Because the bible says he was covered by two separate cloths, one for his body, the other for his face. The Shroud of Turin being one piece, it can't be the real article.

Oh, and a last word of advice for any non-christians living in America. Get a good red-letter editon of the Bible (the type where the words of Christ of Nazareth are printed in red ink), and study it. As a practicing Pagan, I can state from personal experience that the best defense against the more irrational breeds of Bible-thumpers is to know the book better than they do. Especially Matthew 6, verses five and six.

"Hermanos! The Devil has built a robot! Andale!" -- Numero Cinco

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Monday, November 1, 2004 11:19 AM

FORRESTER11

These are all irrelevant. The Bible never says
that Christ's birthdate is Dec. 25th,it's just a traditional date for the celebration, nor does
it say that the Shroud of Turin is authentic.
So this adds up to non argument. Frankly I agree
about not going too far into a Biblical argument-
this isn't the place and it's way off topic,
which is why I did not go into academic details in my previous post.
The response was to correct erroneous facts.
Oh and there is nothing in Matthew to cause any
problems either.

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Friday, April 29, 2005 10:02 AM

BROWNCOATSOLDIER

Quote:
Orginally posted by RocketJock:
Not to get too far into the (Christian) biblical topic, but I'd like to point out that the actual birthdate of Jesus couldn't be December 25th. Why? Because "there were shepherds abiding in the fields;" grazing their flock, in other words.

The one time of the year when shepherds wouldn't be grazing their sheep would be the dead of winter.

Oh, and a last word of advice for any non-christians living in America. Get a good red-letter editon of the Bible (the type where the words of Christ of Nazareth are printed in red ink), and study it. As a practicing Pagan, I can state from personal experience that the best defense against the more irrational breeds of Bible-thumpers is to know the book better than they do. Especially Matthew 6, verses five and six.

Numero Cinco/B]

exucse me if im wrong , but , "dead of winter" ?Since when is december winter in the middle east?

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Friday, May 6, 2005 4:19 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
And of course, its his script and not the episode that won the Hugo (though the fact the filmed episode didn't turn out too badly probably helped a great deal).

Don't be confused by the fact that the award was given to Harlan, rather than sent to Gene Rodenberry, "City on the Edge of Forever" won for dramatic presentation, in the year of eligibility for the broadcast ep. Few if any of the Hugo voters had seen the script, which was not published 'til later. This was still early days for the category (first won by Twilight Zone, three years -- the show, not any particular ep -- then no awards 'til "Menagerie", Star Trek, not the writer), the rules were still "fluid", and Harlan was already famous as a fan & published author. Rules were rewritten later to make it clear that the Dramatic Presentation award was for the presentation, not the script.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Lynyrd Skynyrd, "Crossroads", from "One More For the Road"

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Friday, May 6, 2005 6:25 PM

JEREELHUNTER

Ever since the Middle East snuck into the Northern Hemisphere. It's been there a while now.

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Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:10 AM

SYMON

That's a good idea. I'm not going to take the time to read how it got to the topis of the real bible, but I'd love to see a firefly one.

--Captain of Gratitude
-Symon Silver

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Friday, May 20, 2005 11:22 AM

GAMERCHICK

There's another very good Firefly wiki at http://www.fireflywiki.org - good enough to use as a story bible. And they need passionate Firefly fanatics to help build their content.

Medic

Serenity - Ain't Nothin' Restful About It!

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Monday, August 1, 2005 6:11 PM

R1Z

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
I want the show's bible too. Just started attempting to write fan fic, and it would of great help, (along with a chinese swearing dictionary) I have heard tell that the map that is used has been auctioned off on E-bay, but whoever bought it has not scanned it and posted it yet.

. . .

"My kind of stupid"

I've never seen a chinese swearing dictionary, but you can learn the Firefly Chinese, including the vulgar bits here: http://fireflychinese.home.att.net/

And let's all agree never to use the word "bible" in a post again.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:54 AM

RABBIT2

Since there is an RPG game available, that might be a useful source of background material.
Im not sure how `cannon` the information is though.

Apparently, when Lucusfilm first decided to allow the publication of new fiction set in the Star Wars universe they just passed on the sourcebooks from the old West End Games SW RPG on to authors like Timothy Zahn.
So there is a good precedent for doing this.

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Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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