Mal lost his faith... by chrisisall

FIREFLY UNIVERSE

Mal lost his faith...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, May 16, 2005 11:36
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VIEWED: 5867
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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:30 AM

In Serenity we see Mal kiss his crucifix just as he is about to be left hanging in the wind by his own side. Now I'm not sayin' he had a literal belief in God, but faith in goodness, in his fellow man, civilization or whatever...
Just how wounded is he?
He's not as bad as, say, Hawke from Airwolf("Damn you!" " You're too late,Gabrielle, God already has.") but he's hurtin'.("nothing matters...")
What would it take make him right with the 'verse?

Would you want to see this resolved in upcoming movies, or does Mal need his pain to remain as interesting a character as he is?

uh-oh, I'm thinkin' I started somethin'....

Chrisisall

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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:47 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I think that Mal losing his faith is evident in some episodes of the show, but not as evident as it would've been if Fox hadn't tried to tinker with the show to make Mal lighter. Its still there, though...specifically in "The Train Job" (You're welcome on my boat...God ain't). But, to say that Mal has lost his faith in his fellow man is not right. Its is Mal's faith in his crew that is his saving grace sometimes. I think that part of the great job of this show is showing that someone who has had their faith crushed can begin to regain it when he is surrounded by the right people. Mal's crew has a very humanizing effect on him, as do the passengers, right on down to Simon and River. Mal has demonstrated that he is more than willing to go out on a limb for these siblings that he doesn't know (doesn't even seem to like, sometimes), and to me, that seems almost like the actions of a father, or a big brother. Mal's belief that his crew and his ship are the most important things in the 'verse are what make him such a watchable and likeable character.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:50 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

And, to further reiterate the idea, (and be annoying at the same time) If Mal were to lose any of his crew, he would be crushed, I think. He evens see redemption in Jayne, a character whose morality seems to go wherever the wind blows it. Mal has faith in Jayne, not necessarily that Jayne will always do the right thing, but that he can be steered to do so. Let's say that Jayne had tried to cross...I don't know...Zoe, the way he did Mal when he tried to turn over the Tams. she wouldn't have hesistated to blow him out the airlock. Mal didn't, and shows (again, I think) that Mal believes that Jayne can and will be saved and safe to be around.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, March 25, 2005 11:48 AM

CHRISISALL

Excellent points, all. Especially about the humanizing effects of his crew. But he seems just a mite more fragil to me than you seem to indicate. Inara deciding to leave the ship might brought back that feeling of abandonment from the battle of Serenity in a bigger way than Mal can handle. Like nothin' you do matters, things will be lost anyway.
Good point about Jayne, seems Mal wants to see the good (or the possibility thereof)in him, sorta makes him more a man of the cloth than Book (but we know about him...)
Personally, I think the moment Inara tells him she loves him is the moment his life will regain true meaning (blagh, blagh, I'm a mushy idiot at heart)

But then isn't Firefly really a story about family?

Chrisisall

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Friday, March 25, 2005 1:12 PM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Excellent points, all. Especially about the humanizing effects of his crew. But he seems just a mite more fragil to me than you seem to indicate. Inara deciding to leave the ship might brought back that feeling of abandonment from the battle of Serenity in a bigger way than Mal can handle. Like nothin' you do matters, things will be lost anyway.
Good point about Jayne, seems Mal wants to see the good (or the possibility thereof)in him, sorta makes him more a man of the cloth than Book (but we know about him...)
Personally, I think the moment Inara tells him she loves him is the moment his life will regain true meaning (blagh, blagh, I'm a mushy idiot at heart)
But then isn't Firefly really a story about family?

Chrisisall

Good point. I think that Inara leaving may have been a huge plot point with Mal. We do have the scene where River reads him in Objects In Space where he says, "None of it means a damn thing". Fits pretty well with your theory. I don't know about the Inara telling him she loves him thing but the rest of it seems good.

I think Mal really hasn't lost his faith. He's trying his hardest to close himself off so he won't have anything to lose but he just can't stop being who he is. He cares about people whether he wants to or not. As much as he tries to push them away, he really does want some companionship. Probably why he's in love with the companion. Eh? Eh? Oh come on, that's funny stuff.

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Friday, March 25, 2005 1:21 PM

COVINGTON

This brings up a point I'm not sure of myself. Mal turns back and let's Jayne live after Jayne demonstrates a conscience and shame by asking not to be remembered by the others as a traitor in Ariel. If Jayne hadn't, do you think Mal really would have let him die right there, or would he have dumped him off alive at the next stop?

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Friday, March 25, 2005 1:57 PM

CHRISISALL

I like your take on all this. Mine is maybe a little too dramatic.
Damn do I love these characters!

By the way, who do you think has less trouble throwin' a man off the deep end, Jayne...or Book?

P.S. you have a singular wit

Chrisisall

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Friday, March 25, 2005 2:02 PM

CHRISISALL

He would have dumped him at the next stop. Mal could only kill one of his own crew (regardless of how much they deserved it) to prevent an innocent gettin' killed or in self defence.
One great moment of the series, no doubt.

Chrisisall

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Friday, March 25, 2005 5:32 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I think Jayne is the kind of man that, once you cross, its better to kill than leave him to his own devices...Because his own devices are always going to tell him to come after you. I think Mal knows this...I believe that Mal would have let Jayne blow out the lock, and good riddance. When Mal says he is protective of his crew, he means it. Even if the threat comes from within. Sometimes, especially if the threat comes from within.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Saturday, March 26, 2005 7:12 AM

CHRISISALL

When you put it that way, then lettin' Jayne die would be preventing a killin'.

Okay, you're possibly not incorrect.

You know, this is the hardest question I've come across. I have to watch the ep again right now to see Mals face.

Later.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:26 AM

BATMARLOWE

Seems to me Mal expects the same kind of loyalty from his crew that he gives them. And if one of them betrays him it cuts Mal to the quick. I can see Mal letting Jayne die out of a need to protect the rest of the crew (the crew being the only thing Mal has faith in [especially Kaylee]). However if Mal had dropped Jayne off somewhere, do you think Jayne would have wanted revenge against Mal or maybe learned his lesson? That he jeopardized the closest thing he had to a family. Just food for thought.

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Saturday, March 26, 2005 9:03 AM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
....However if Mal had dropped Jayne off somewhere, do you think Jayne would have wanted revenge against Mal or maybe learned his lesson? That he jeopardized the closest thing he had to a family. Just food for thought.

Interesting question. I don't think Jayne is introspective enough to put that together. If Mal had dropped him off, my suspicion is that Jayne would have become something of a Big Bad (well...maybe a Mid Bad...well, bad, anyway). I think he would have turned his sadness and shame into rage, and acted to try and defeat Mal for giving up on him.

Of course, he would not have succeeded, being far less subtle than Mal, but probably would have inadvertently set events into motion which would get both Serenity's crew and himself into terrible peril. One could envision a story in which they have to act together to get out of that trouble, with Jayne ultimately Getting what Mal's been on about, with all this loyalty stuff.

Might make for a fun fic...and I hereby release the idea to anyone with the initiative to write such a fic, since I lack it.

Department of Redundancy Department

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Sunday, March 27, 2005 8:46 AM

CHRISISALL

Jus' watched Ariel again, took a real hard look at Mal, and you're right. He woulda let it happen. Seems to me he made a judgement on the spot and lucky for Jayne he seemed sincere enough to give Mal the impression that he really learned something (or at least is BEGINNIN' to learn something) about loyalty on Serenity.

Case closed (for me, anyway).

Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 27, 2005 1:45 PM

COVINGTON

His whole "If I ever kill you, you'll be armed and you'll be facing me" aside, I'd agree that Jayne's just too physically dangerous to keep around once he's really turned.

Plus, were he set loose, he'd sell them out the moment he could get to a communications terminal.

Interesting that Mal still trusted him with weapons. I'd bet that during the Serenity battle and aftermath, an officer would be in constant danger of getting fragged by disgruntled soldiers. He'd have some faith in his ability to know just how close Jayne is after that, perhaps.

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Monday, March 28, 2005 4:29 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

A number of people have posited the query "What does Mal really mean when he says 'None of it means a damn thing'" in Objects in Space. Is he talking about or to Inara, is he talking about himself, the crew, the ship, the effort to protect the Tams, River herself?
I think that "None of it means a damn thing" is representative of Mal to a point. But, I think the "discoveries" that River makes in OIS are tempered by her own feelings. River has demonstrated that she is a bit empathic, and telepathic to boot. But, with what Simon learns of what was done to her in Ariel, we learn that she cannot hide her feelings. Every emotion she has is front and center for her. So, this throws into suspect anything that she might be getting from other people. Sure, I think these are these people's thoughts, but I think River is projecting herself onto these people too. Or rather, filtering them through herself, because she is powerless to stop it. She can read your mind, but no further than how it really applies to her, or how she applies it elsewhere.
I don't think Mal's thoughts in OIS point to a dropout of faith. He would be crushed if Inara left, but I think he would manage. He managed before her, and would do so again. He's also flourished in the face of ultimate defeat at the hands of his hated enemies. He took what he could from his experiences in Serenity Valley, and made a business...borderline business, but enough to get by on without someone looking over his shoulder, which is just the way he likes it.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Monday, March 28, 2005 10:44 AM

CHRISISALL

I think " None of it means a damn thing.." was just one of those momentary dark thoughts you have when you're not using that "thought filter" we all have, the thing that tells us whether we're just having a reaction to something, or whether it's something we truly believe. Just for a second, lost in the idea that Inara, someone he has come to care for more than he'd intended, was leaving brought to that bottom level, a place we visit but hopefully don't live in.
River was just picking up the most intense feelings in the air during that walk through the ship, I believe.
You're right, of course, Mal would survive it, doesn't mean he wants to, though.
So everything she "heard" was absolutly true, if only a flash.

Make sense?

Or is my mouth jus' talkin'?

Chrisisall

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Friday, May 13, 2005 8:54 PM

MADRIK

Right. The lost in faith is something I've noticed. He did kiss a crucifix and he did give words of encouragement to his men relating to God. The point I thought he lost his faith was when the medic ship came in. And he put the flag or flare (I don't really remember) and something was mentioned about who's colors a ship was flying. Then God was mentioned. And Mal asked, pretty much asking himself, "Who's colors is God flying?" Ringing bells? Sorry, it's been a little while.

Other reoccurances such as Book asking, "Would you mind if I said grace?" And Mal replied, "Only if its outloud." And about how "God isn't welcome" on his boat.

And about the "Ariel" episode. That ending really affected me. That was VERY good. You know, I don't think Mal would have let him die. I think he would have let him in. I just think its in his character. But I think he KNEW Jayne would be in regret. When he asked Mal to make something up, that expressed his shame. And that's when he closed the door. Know what I mean?

Mal's loyalty is incredible. The reason that Mal left Simon and River on that planet where they got kidnapped was because Book needed medical attention RIGHT AWAY. I seriously think Mal said "He was stupid enough to get himself captured" was just a ploy to seem stronger. He of course went back for them. He KNEW that Simon and River wouldn't last out there. Get what I'm saying? I'm tired...

"She's a witch!"
"Yeah, but she's our witch."

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Friday, May 13, 2005 10:45 PM

SERGEANTX

The whole faith issue was one of the most fascinating themes in the series. It was really the central theme of Jaynestown as well as an recurring theme throughout.

The parallel but inverse story arcs of Mal and Book were really going to get interesting I think (can I get a GORRAMN FOX?). It was obvious that Mal's experiences in the war had turned him against his faith. It was also hinted strongly that Book had done, or seen, something (also perhaps in the war) that had caused him to turn to faith for redemption. I'm wondering if either of their conversions would have 'stuck' in the long run.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 3:35 AM

CHRISISALL

I got the feelin' Book would've reverted to the rather violence prone someone we got glimpses of, or at least found a middle ground. The shepard thing couldn't have worked forever and never seemed to be somethin' he had his whole heart in. Remember him cryin' in Out Of Gas?
Mal's another story. He's at a point where he's handed his 'faith' back to the outside world, and only the right persons or events will be able to give it back to him. That's why his ship is so important to him. He's created his little 'world' inside the 'Verse where people are loyal, and things make sense, a safe (in the emotional sense) place.

All-psychological and such Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 9:22 AM

MADRIK

When the crew split up in the shuttles in 'Out Of Gas', did you see the way Jayne was looking at Malcom? Telling him about the suit he's prepped for him and everything? He took a moment and looked at him. There's definatly good in Jayne as ruthless as he seems. I'm sure Mal sees that.

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:49 PM

CHRISISALL

Oh, definitly. Jayne must've had a bad childhood, never feelin' part of anything. Serenity was the only thing between him and a lonely grave, and he's beginnin' to understand that. He has a 'family', for the first time. I really like that character. Heck, there's no character or actor that I don't like on that show. Mal is saving Jayne as much or more than the crew is saving Mal. It really is a show about family and bonds, loyalty and redemption.

Family guy Chrisisall

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Monday, May 16, 2005 2:06 AM

SHINYMOM

The notion that Jayne has no family, or had a bad childhood seems to me is dispelled in The Message. Jayne gets that package from his mother who made him the cunning hat. "Oooh, enclosed!" Jayne says upon reading the letter. He also has a little brother who has been sick, and he's been sending money home. Maybe the family that the crew of Firefly is/is becoming reminds Jayne of what he once had as a child , and still has when time and opportunity remind him of it. I think life has been pretty rough for Jayne since he left home, possibly at much too early an age. Hhad the show not been canceled, we probably would have been granted a closer look into Jayne's life, perhaps like the flashbacks of Simon and River's childhoods.

ShinyMom

"Chow's in ten...no need to dress."

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Monday, May 16, 2005 3:08 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I think Jayne may have had a stern authority figure in his father. The only mention made of Jayne's father is in Ariel..."My daddy always said someone that can't find work ain't lookin' hard enough."

Which brings me to this...Jayne seems to be very rooted in his senses. If its money, or the gain of money or comfort or sex or food, then Jayne is all about it. But, here is the essential paradox of Jayne Cobb. He enjoys these things mightily, but can you think another character that enjoyed these things so thoroughly who worked as hard for them as Jayne does? Jayne is almost a bachannalian character, but he's not lazy, and I appreciate that. Its refreshing to see someone who revels in the flesh (so to speak) who's not portrayed as a shiftless layabout.

You know, I'm not sure that they mention a brother in The Message, though, they mention someone who seems to be living with his mother named Maggie, more than likely, a sibling. You know, it could be a little brother...Anyone who would name their son Jayne, may name a brother Maggie...Never thought of it before.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Monday, May 16, 2005 4:11 AM

XENOCIDE

I think that Mal's faith ties into the whole "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do" theme.

For Mal, if there is a god, then he is certainly not on friendly terms. Mal has the sam problem many faithful have always had... Why do bad things happen to good and righteous people? Why does justice fail and totalitarianism prevail?

If there is no universal good, no god, for Mal then all that matters is how he acquits himself of his responsibility. If meeting his responsibility to his crew meat putting Jayne out the airlock as red paste then he wowuld do it. It was Jayne's conscience that saved him... that glimmer of redemption that Mal felt a respnsibility to honor was all that saved him. Mal does the job and he gets paid. He is all about honoring some carefully ranked hierarchy of unspoken and spoken commitments.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Monday, May 16, 2005 9:19 AM

CHRISISALL

I meant that he had no family figurativly, like none he could share his troubles or adventures with. And his daddy sounds he was a harsh dude.
I should have said the crew was his 'new' family, I guess. He missed somethin' somewhere, 'cause the notion of loyalty is something new to him, and I think he's warmin' up to it.
We'll see in the BDM.

Ain't no 'sycologist Chrisisall

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Monday, May 16, 2005 10:25 AM

WEICHI

Ok, this is my first post, but I had to jump in because I was just talking to a friend about the Jayne - airlock scene in "Ariel". Most of the comments have been very insightful, here are my two cents.

First, Mal lost his faith in the War, and it is unclear to me how much of a grounding he still has in basic right and wrong. What grounding he does have, and what faith remains, is a belief in caring about folk that care back. This is what he says to Saffron to explain how he comes out on top.

So, he and Zoe are totally tight, Kaylee shares his love for the ship. The rest of his relationships are conditional - Wash he needs, and he knows Wash cares for Zoe. Simon's caring for his sister impacts him, and, because he cares and is responsible for the folk on the ship, he needs him. Book starts out as just a fare - and this is the character we still need to know more about. Inara has her ambassador function, and functions at other levels for Mal. River only joins the family in "Objects"

Jayne he signs on purely out of necessity. I believe he is completly ready to kill Jayne, Jayne intentionally brought the alliance down on the family. Jayne is not saved by concience, or by showing his guilt but by showing he CARES ABOUT THE OTHERS - or at least what they think. Jayne gives up on his own life, but he does not want the rest to know what he did. I think you can see that this surprises Mal, great acting on both of their parts.

WEICHI

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Monday, May 16, 2005 11:36 AM

CHRISISALL

weichi, good first post. Agree completly.
I am currently watching Buffy S2 for the first time, and I see where Joss honed his skills. But Firefly is way better!

Jayne Cobb, he's my man, if he can't do it, Vera can Chrisisall

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