Late to the party by Cazaril

Actually, Persephone and Santo are in orbit around the helioformed gas giant Lux, which orbits White Sun, but are not considered Core worlds. This is because they were developed after the Core worlds, despite being in the same system. Someone had to come up with helioforming technology before they could be inhabited (the first helioformed gas giant was in the Blue Sun system, which Miranda orbits... which I doubt is coincidential).

Georgia and the Red Sun system contains both border worlds and Rim worlds as does Kalidasa and Blue Sun. Beaumonde, a prominent border world, is in Kalidasa or maybe the Blue Sun system, depending on whether you go by statements in the movie or calculations from Firefly.

Border worlds are given that label based on their proximity to the Core planets around White Sun, too far away to be Core, but not far away enough to be Rim. Border worlds are slightly more developed than Rim worlds because of that proximity.

Oh, and welcome!

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:28 PM

But it seem you're classifying planets based on two different schemes them.

One, based on placement. Those in the White Sun system are Core planets, Georgia and Red Sun(which share the orbital path around the White Sun system)are Border Worlds, and Kalisara and Blue Sun being out on the "Rim of know space" become Rim Worlds. But that would mean both Persephone and Santo are Core, because the brown dwarfs they orbit, Lux and Qin Shi Yaung respectively, are in orbit around White Sun.

The other seems to be their level of progress, which would place Persephone and Santo as below the level of Core planets, being newly terraformed, but then you'd have a mix of Border Worlds and Rim Worlds mixed through the other four systems, and if one of those ever progressed far enough, you could have a Core world, outside of White Sun.

Planets like Rubicon (sixth around White Sun, and incidentally just inside Osiris' seventh place orbit), would then be considered a Rim World (once terraforming is complete), but it would explain how Beaumonde in the Kalisara system is considered a Border World.

I guess if you look at it as a level of progress, Border Worlds is short for "Borderline Core Level Worlds", and Rim Worlds short for "On the brink of making it , balanced on the rim of making it", which would be the first step after terraforming, where it is still uncertain if the planet will become a viable colony.

As for Miranda and the Brown Dwarf Burnham she orbits... It makes sense that they would experiment with helioforming as far as possible from the more populated systems, so if anything went wrong, it would limit the effects.

Speaking of Miranda, it's interesting to note that Miranda is listed as having a 30 million person population before the addition of the G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate and has a terraforming date of 2433 (which required a brand new process called helioforming to achieve). But Meridian, the capital world of Blue Sun, is listed as having a 7.5 million person population, and was terraformed 3 years earlier.

Caz

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:36 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nobody's had the chance yet, so I'll start: Welcome to the 'verse! This is the best fan forum around, in my opinion.

I'm a late comer like you (we keep coming in!). Saw Serenity via DVD rental, loved it, end of story. Later found Firefly via it being Joss' (previous fan of Buffy) and loved IT, then made the connection to it being the "prequel" to "that movie I enjoyed so much a couple of years ago" and bought both.

I also picked up "Finding Serenity" and "Serenity Found", two really great books with chapters on this or that by individual authors. I'm halfway through the third book, "The Psychology of Joss Whedon" and going to pick up a couple more when I'm through...Joss makes for creations people love to take apart, analyze, appreciate, and it's much fun to see what they come up with. I rarely read this kind of book, but Joss is so complex and his works have so many levels to them, it's been fascinating. I highly recommend both.

It's interesting to me; have as many books been written like this about other series? About the creator of the series, dissecting his works and the myriad meanings within them, the characters, etc.? I know Joss being an existential and "rabid feminist" makes him more interesting, but I've never seen so many books about a creator of TV series anywhere...!

No help with maps and stuff, tho', sorry. Just wanted to welcome the newest Browncoat and encourage you to stick around...this place FLIES!

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:50 PM

Meridian isn't orbiting around the same star (or gas giant in this case) as Miranda is. Before helioforming, Blue Sun was one of the last systems to be terraformed.

This is fan theory, but I suspect a certain company invested heavily in the Blue Sun system and took their name from it.

I think both schemes are right, actually, even though they might seem contradictory. In general, border worlds are far enough from the Core that they aren't considered Core, but close enough that they enjoy the benefits of fairly cheap shipping to and from, which contributes to their development.

But by this interpretation, Santo and Persephone are exceptions, and they're not included in the Core world category as habit, because they came much later. So Persephone is considered a border world because it plays a similar role, and Santo is considered a Rim world because of it's lack of development.

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 5:24 PM

Sorry, that statement seems a little misleading....

Meridian orbits Blue Sun.. While Miranda orbits the Brown Dwarf Burnham, which in turn orbits Blue Sun.

I realize that Miranda is listed as being in the Burnham Quadrant by some sources... But also remember that everything I'm working on is based strongly on "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" by Quantum Mechanix Inc and "The Verse in Numbers" version 1.1....

Caz

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 5:29 PM

Right, both of which which also show Miranda being in the Burnham Quadrant, and which is confirmed in a line in the movie. What are we arguing about again?

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:24 PM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

Heres a thought, why don't you email QMx and ask them?

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 10:35 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Can't help ya with yer question, but Welcome to the party. Ya ain't too late, there's still some inter-engine brew left, 'n I got some left-over wife soup and Fruity Oatey Bars.

There'll be some others along any minute with other good stuff. Enjoy!

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 2:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Right, both of which which also show Miranda being in the Burnham Quadrant, and which is confirmed in a line in the movie. What are we arguing about again?

Not arguing... Discussing.

When I'm trying to conceptualize something, I usually need a knowledgeable, intelligent person to bounce ideas/concepts/understanding off of. They swat at the concepts based on what they know, and I reply based on what I know. It forces me to think harder about something when I do this...

Hence the whole idea that Border World might not mean it's location, but a level of civilization it has obtained towards a certain goal (Core Worlds). And that it is more a factor of the the White Sun worlds were settled first, and have had the longest to become "civilized", and are mostly located in one place. (short version of what I've already posted).

That is an idea I don't think I would have had, without talking it through.

As to contacting QMx, I'll probably do that, but I doubt they are going to be able to give me a better explanation. Certainly they aren't going to re-due their maps over it.

Caz

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 2:46 PM

Ah, okay, I didn't know what you meant by the Burnham thing, because Miranda does orbit around the former gas giant now helioformed brown dwarf Burnham.

As for the border worlds, to rule out that it isn't location, you'd probably need to make yourself a coordinate system with White Sun in the middle, then position to Blue Sun, Red Sun, Geogia, and Kalidasa the appropriate distance away based on the Verse by Numbers and maybe an intersection with the calculated distance from multiple gravitation bodies using the others. Then draw arcs around the stars based on the Verse in Numbers distance from star for the border worlds listed in the Serenity RPG. Be a lot of work though.

But development could I think be a valid explanation. Of course, I suspect that the border worlds have developed better than Rim worlds because of better shipping lanes (closer to the Core or some other factor), or simply being more hospitable worlds.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
As for the border worlds, to rule out that it isn't location, you'd probably need to make yourself a coordinate system with White Sun in the middle, then position to Blue Sun, Red Sun, Geogia, and Kalidasa the appropriate distance away based on the Verse by Numbers and maybe an intersection with the calculated distance from multiple gravitation bodies using the others. Then draw arcs around the stars based on the Verse in Numbers distance from star for the border worlds listed in the Serenity RPG. Be a lot of work though.

Actually, once I get Blue Sun, and the basic orbits of the five systems finished (I've already got system maps produced for White Sun, Georgia, Red Sun and Kalidasa), my plan was to put a lot of the stuff from "Verse in Numbers" into excel, and start looking for correlations between the data sets (terraforming date and population <=> category - Core/Border/Rim).

With Santo listed as being in the White Sun system (and positioned between planets like Londinium and Ariel), I shouldn't need to go beyond that one system. But I still plan to sort of map them out by category in yet another map (the best I can).

Caz

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 4:04 PM

I'm impressed! And this is all for work on the RP?

Which, by the way, I think is a finely constructed piece of work. The simplicity of the dice rolls and the concept of the plot points really appeals to me.

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Friday, January 8, 2010 12:16 AM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

Re: emailing QMx

We have people(11th Hour) on this board who work for them, and I understand that they are the ones who worked on the maps. I know they would reply to you, I met several of them in LA in November and the people over at QMx are always striving to be correct when it comes to the 'verse. They are so happy to have the rights to the shows, and they said they want to hear from the fans. We have a couple of them in the 76th Independant Battalion.(Hildara for one)
So, maybe its not such a bad idea after all...

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Friday, January 8, 2010 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fillygirl:
We have people(11th Hour) on this board who work for them, and I understand that they are the ones who worked on the maps. I know they would reply to you, I met several of them in LA in November and the people over at QMx are always striving to be correct when it comes to the 'verse. They are so happy to have the rights to the shows, and they said they want to hear from the fans. We have a couple of them in the 76th Independant Battalion.(Hildara for one)
So, maybe its not such a bad idea after all...

If you know someone that works at QMx that could help, please , send them to this thread. I would love them to join in this discussion.

I would appreciate any assistance I can get.

Caz

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Friday, January 8, 2010 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm impressed! And this is all for work on the RP?

Which, by the way, I think is a finely constructed piece of work. The simplicity of the dice rolls and the concept of the plot points really appeals to me.

I love the design of the RPG. I was telling my brother in-law.. I have characters that I have been working on for over 15 years, but I don't have as clear a picture in my head as I do for the four characters I created (mainly the assets and complications have helped define them). I also really like the "skill+trait" way that things are handled. It's really great.

As for all the work... I'm used to playing BattleTech and AD&D. Both systems have been around so long, that if I need something, I can usually find it on the web. As a information junkie, I'm faced with having to do it myself this time. If it helps me understand the universe better, it's worth it.

Caz

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Friday, January 8, 2010 12:36 PM

Ooh! BattleTech! I don't often see people into that. I played the videogames, not so much the table top, but the complicated story and all the infighting is REALLY fun.

I really haven't played table top for long, maybe a year or two, and I've never gotten far with anyone in campaigns because whenever me and my friends get a group together, people lose interest pretty fast. But I like how it's really just a story collaboration with a bunch of complicated rules.

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Friday, January 8, 2010 2:31 PM

I don't actually get to play much (as it, not at all). What I do get to do is...

For D&D I write modules and have my own campaign world I work on. I also write short stories, and story snippets for it too.

For BattleTech, well, same thing as D&D. I don't care much for where the official universe went, so I turned the clock back, and started an alternate one.

I also paint the miniatures... If your interest, check out www.lordsofthebattlefield.com .. Go into the forum list, and look for "Miniatures Showcase". Look for anything with the Author of "Cazaril"

Now that I have the Serenity RPG, and four unique characters to fly my ship, I've been working on a story for this 'Verse too. It's the other reason I'm trying to pin down so many facts. This way it will fit better into what has already been established.

Caz

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Friday, January 8, 2010 9:15 PM

Welcome to the board.
There is an online version of the Map of the Verse. It is linked around here somewhere.
http://wydraz.110mb.com/firefly/index.html

There are also some threads in the Episode Forum which you might find helpful or interesting.
I don't have my notes or cheat sheet with me, but I'll try to clarify things from memory.

Core refers to worlds within the asteroid belt (The Halo) closest to White Sun, as I recall. I think Lux is outside this, and Persephone orbits Lux.

Not all sources agree. Universal mandated that the Map of the Verse showed a 5 Sun system, yet the goodies accompanying the Serenity DVDs show the Verse as a 1 Sun system. Many other discrepancies between sources.

Santo was the world they cleared out of in a hurry after the pool parlor fight, talking about slaver traders. I think this was the opening of Shindig, where Inara insults Mal's petty thievery.
I was thinking Santo was the sole orbiter of another body, which orbits White Sun. But yes, this would be White Sun System.

Burnham was helioformed first because it was the farthest away from the Core in case anything went wrong, then others were done as the process was refined. Burnham is orbited by Miranda.

The Rim worlds are more removed from the Core. Core worlds are closer to everything. It takes about 5.5 days for Serenity to traverse the Verse, it takes about 2400 years for Blue Sun to orbit White Sun, and Kalidasa is on the opposite end of the Verse (although not as pictured on the Map). So the worlds of Blue and Kalidasa are not on the way to many other places, and they don't really move very much in relative terms. In between are the Border worlds, providing links between the extremes. Lux (Persephone) and Murphy (Shadow, Hera) were at greatest proximity in 2511. Consider those items when evaluating the interactivity of the worlds.

There has been word that QMX might at some point update data to include Ita Moon, Kowlon Fed Base, and Kowlonshi locations. The supposed location of Beaumonde is the most glaring inconsistency.

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 3:54 AM

STINKINGROSE

Ni Howdy! Welcome to the 'verse.

I'm only about two to three years ahead of you in discovering this lovely place.

You're probably going to have to pick one version of the maps and stick to that in your head. I have seen at least two versions and I've never even run across the RPG. Trying to make two or more separate individuals' visions unify into a cohesive unit will probably never work and drive you batty into the bargain, as it is unlikely they consulted with each other before progressing and might have interpreted source material differently/made it up wholecloth.

Now go forth to other threads and meet shiny new people!

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 8:34 AM

Bytemite: I finished both my conversion of "The Verse in Numbers" into excel, and the fifth map (all that is left is a map that shows how the five main stars relate to each other)...

Bottom line... Location can not be the sole factor in categorizing the planets. The best example of this is Heinlein... Heinlein is a helioformed brown dwarf in orbit around Red Sun. In orbit around Heinlein are Triumph (Rim), Paquin (Border), Lazarus and Silverhold. With the exception of Lazarus, I have confirmed this arrangement through other sources. Now Triumph (the inner most world) is considered a Rim World, but Paquin (in the 2nd orbit) is considered to be a Border World.... So category by location makes no kinda sense.

StinkingRose: I ran across the Serenity RPG when I was looking for a miniature to use with BattleTech. I finally broke down and used a gift card I got for Christmas to buy it, and it is a great look into the 'Verse. I wouldn't go as far as to say everything in the book is canon, but I do believe they pulled from every available source (possibly even Whedon himself), to be as accurate as possible. If you're just a Firefly/Serenity fan, it makes a nice companion guide. If you're a Role-Player, then it has one of the best, most intelligent setup, and the character creation process makes your character come to life. If you're both a Firefly fan and Role-Player... It's great.. I highly recommend it.

JewelStaiteFan: Thanks for responding.. I have gotten the most useful information from you and Bytemite... more so then from anywhere else. Also thanks for the link to Wydraz's stuff, there is a lot of cool stuff there.

So far I have seen 1 system, 2 system, and 5 system versions of the 'Verse... And several configurations of each type.

One of the best examples of the 1 system 'Verse is behind River's instructor in the movie. This is a system with twenty primary orbits and what appears to be several moons (big screen TV, and a lot of frame forward/frame back). Only two bodies are tagged, and whether or not these are helioformed brown dwarfs, or just worlds of interest, I don't know.

As for a 5 system version, Quantum Mechanix's "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" is the best I have seen, and probably the one I'm going to go with (Partly because it is gorgeous, and I want one.. Can't have one version to play in, and another hanging on my wall).

Because of this, I realize that there will be a lot of inconsistencies, and I truly wish Whedon would have said "This is my 'Verse" (map included), and we could be done with it.

As for Core Worlds being inside of Halo... Where is Halo in the system? FireflyRPG.com has a two system map that places it similar to our own asteroid belt (somewhere middle-front). But Quantum Mechanix's map of White Sun, places it at the outer boundary of the system (therefore everything else orbits within). Their map also places Lux (with Persephone - Border World, and Pelorum) as the last White Sun orbiting body before the belt.

Santo orbits Qin Shi Haung (name of the first Chinese Emperor) which is itself the eight body in orbit around White Sun (confirmed multiple sources). But this places Santo between Londinium and Ariel.. Two known Core Worlds.

And there-in lies my problem... If all worlds within <"X", or White Sun, or the Halo Asteroid Belt> are Core Worlds, and all worlds from <"Y", or in orbit around Georgia and Red Sun, or those between the Halo Asteroid Belt and some other point> are Border Worlds, and all worlds from <"Z", or in orbit around Kalidasa and Blue Sun, or beyond a certain point> are Rim Worlds.. I'd have no problem.. But it doesn't work that way.

So I'm back to "What makes a Core World a Core World"...

It's not location (as explained above).. It's not terraform date or population either (per "The Verse in Numbers"). I'm left with a cultural/societal based answer.. Kind of like joining the United Federation of Planets.. Where you have to prove that your planet is "advanced" enough to qualify for entry.

What this does, is leave me with a list of 215 terraformed (or being terraformed) bodies, with a classification for only a dozen or two. (a secondary issue: I have no idea if the moon of a Core World, is considered Core also).

To my way of thinking... Core means certain things.. Well fed, good medicine, high culture, disposable income (valuables), Alliance presences. And as you move through the categories of worlds, you get less and less of the list above. Opening up opportunity for an honest smuggler to make a livin'.

As for Quantum Mechanix adding stuff, there is a long list of stuff I'd like to know where is.

Niska's Skyplex (Said to be in orbit around Ezra)
The Bazaar from "The Message"
any other space station that might have come up.

In regards to Ita Moon (or just Name: Ita Classification: Moon).. Ita is a moon orbits Whittier which is the 10th body around Kalidasa (confirmed separate sources).

They've also placed Mr. Universe on a Comm Station out between Georgia and Blue Sun.

Beaumonde is a glaring inconsistency? How so? To me, it is the Hera of the Kalidasa system (far out in orbit, so one of the first planets you would encounter when entering the system).

Caz

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 10:30 PM

A few tips, Caz:
Have you read any of the Official Companions? One for Serenity, 2 for Firefly? The Serenity one does have more data on Planets, Verse history, etc. Because all are authored by Joss, I feel they have greater claim to canon than other sources.

Please provide source data for Ita Moon location. I have been looking for it, and MotV and White Paper do not have it. I have found much supposition, but nothing from the creators or other liscensed/sanctioned sources. I am interested in any truly valid source you've found.

When trying to decipher and interpret various conflicting sources, try to keep in mind some of them were suppositions produced before clarifying data was released. For instance, the Companion Books were not all released until 2008, and MotV not until Nov 2008. So check the dates of the sources and conjectures, the earlier ones may have less solid foundation. Many suppositions seem to have been derived from the appearance in scenes. But think of Earth today. Although the most advanced planet we know of, if you glimpsed Wyoming, Arizona deserts, remote Alaska, or many other barren locations Worldwide, would you think Earth was a Rim world? Keep in mind Mal sought out remote locations, essential for a successful smuggler - cities were more suited for thievery. The "Empty Rock" at the beginning of Trash was clearly not empty, for there was breathable air, it was terraformed, and no worlds are listed as both terraformed and no population. However, it was RELATIVELY empty, in that one location they rendezvoused.

When thinking of population, look also at population DENSITY - I found that of interest.

When considering location, you may be too focused on the orbital position, but forgetting the location in space. Consider a few assumptions for a moment: Ariel and Osiris might be in close proximity, relatively speaking, or in the same general arc of White Sun's space, or on the same side of White Sun, as well perhaps as Bellerophon. Then perhaps Santo is on the opposite side of White Sun (I'm not saying that is the fact). Ariel has a listed orbital duration of 93 years, Osiris is 50 years, and Santo is between. With all orbiting in the same direction (prograde), if Ariel and Osiris are nearby each other, how many centuries or millenia will elapse before they are NOT nearby, or before Santo has come around to the same side of White Sun as either one of them? Do you see? So, although they are moving in space, their proximity or relative location remains consistent.

I like to utilize The Writer's Resource Package thread in the Blue Sun Forum to get around this site, although I am not a writer.

Have you looked at some of the threads in Episode Forum? You might find some interesting or helpful info in threads 36389 (MotV), 38693 (Travel & Navigation), and a better understanding with the timelines in 36140, 32184, 31980.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cazaril:

JewelStaiteFan: Thanks for responding.. I have gotten the most useful information from you and Bytemite... more so then from anywhere else. Also thanks for the link to Wydraz's stuff, there is a lot of cool stuff there.

So far I have seen 1 system, 2 system, and 5 system versions of the 'Verse... And several configurations of each type.

One of the best examples of the 1 system 'Verse is behind River's instructor in the movie. This is a system with twenty primary orbits and what appears to be several moons (big screen TV, and a lot of frame forward/frame back). Only two bodies are tagged, and whether or not these are helioformed brown dwarfs, or just worlds of interest, I don't know.

The Map of the Verse is supposed to be based upon the mappings shown in Serenity - tink also fo the map River used to find Miranda. Several shots seem to be one system, but the zooming in obfuscated outer systems, so the shot shows one system at a time.
There are 2 kinds of MotV - Roll up and fold up. My Roll up has not yet exited the package, and my fold up has gotten nicked up a bit, lots of use (it remains inside the package when not actively being perused).

Quote:

As for a 5 system version, Quantum Mechanix's "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" is the best I have seen, and probably the one I'm going to go with (Partly because it is gorgeous, and I want one.. Can't have one version to play in, and another hanging on my wall).

Because of this, I realize that there will be a lot of inconsistencies, and I truly wish Whedon would have said "This is my 'Verse" (map included), and we could be done with it.

As for Core Worlds being inside of Halo... Where is Halo in the system? FireflyRPG.com has a two system map that places it similar to our own asteroid belt (somewhere middle-front). But Quantum Mechanix's map of White Sun, places it at the outer boundary of the system (therefore everything else orbits within). Their map also places Lux (with Persephone - Border World, and Pelorum) as the last White Sun orbiting body before the belt.

Santo orbits Qin Shi Haung (name of the first Chinese Emperor) which is itself the eight body in orbit around White Sun (confirmed multiple sources). But this places Santo between Londinium and Ariel.. Two known Core Worlds.

Have you found a canon source which states Santo is not a core world?

Quote:

And there-in lies my problem... If all worlds within <"X", or White Sun, or the Halo Asteroid Belt> are Core Worlds, and all worlds from <"Y", or in orbit around Georgia and Red Sun, or those between the Halo Asteroid Belt and some other point> are Border Worlds, and all worlds from <"Z", or in orbit around Kalidasa and Blue Sun, or beyond a certain point> are Rim Worlds.. I'd have no problem.. But it doesn't work that way.

So I'm back to "What makes a Core World a Core World"...

When trying to categorize what seems an esoteric concept, I have remained most flexible in the integration of seperately sourced data.

Quote:

It's not location (as explained above).. It's not terraform date or population either (per "The Verse in Numbers"). I'm left with a cultural/societal based answer.. Kind of like joining the United Federation of Planets.. Where you have to prove that your planet is "advanced" enough to qualify for entry.

What this does, is leave me with a list of 215 terraformed (or being terraformed) bodies, with a classification for only a dozen or two. (a secondary issue: I have no idea if the moon of a Core World, is considered Core also).

To my way of thinking... Core means certain things.. Well fed, good medicine, high culture, disposable income (valuables), Alliance presences. And as you move through the categories of worlds, you get less and less of the list above. Opening up opportunity for an honest smuggler to make a livin'.

As for Quantum Mechanix adding stuff, there is a long list of stuff I'd like to know where is.

Niska's Skyplex (Said to be in orbit around Ezra)

Although not very clear in The Train Job, this is fleshed out in War Stories, particularly in the script.

Quote:

The Bazaar from "The Message"
any other space station that might have come up.

In regards to Ita Moon (or just Name: Ita Classification: Moon).. Ita is a moon orbits Whittier which is the 10th body around Kalidasa (confirmed separate sources).

Source, please?

Quote:

They've also placed Mr. Universe on a Comm Station out between Georgia and Blue Sun.

Correct, assuming the positions of Georgia and Blue Sun are similar quadrant of White Sun (they are not likely as shown on MotV). This location for Mr. Universe first positied in The White Paper.

Quote:

Beaumonde is a glaring inconsistency? How so? To me, it is the Hera of the Kalidasa system (far out in orbit, so one of the first planets you would encounter when entering the system).

Caz

In OMR, departing Triumph (Red Sun) and heading for Beaumonde, Mal says about a week. Red Sun is a couple days from Kalidasa, if they are nearby. Blue Sun would be about 5 days if on the other side of the Verse. If Kalidasa were on the ohter side of the Verse, it would be like 3 days away. So why a week travel time? Perhaps the scenic route.

In BDM Serenity, we travel from Lilac (Blue Sun) to Beaumonde to Haven (Blue Sun) to Training House to Haven (Blue) to Miranda (outer Blue) to Mr Universe (between Blue and Georgia). Stated as being couple hours from Haven to Training House and again back, and the longest time span seems to be from Haven to Miranda. So going from Lilac to the opposite end of the Verse, about 5.5 days, and then right back to Haven, another 5.5 days, seems to you to be represented on film? Or did it seem the travel from Lilac to Beaumonde and then to Haven might be more like the same system, less than a day, instead of a week's lapse each way? Do you conjure Fanty and Mingo in Kalidasa would have the hot scoop on doings in Lilac, the payroll schedule, whether it was overrun with Reavers, etc?

After the Barnswallow, Simon Decks Mal, and Mal says Shiny, they can get off in 10 hours on Beaumonde. Ten hours is not even enough time do depart the Blue Sun System.

No guaranty, but I'm thinking The Maidenhead was in Blue Sun System, and the world was stated as Beaumonde.

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:00 AM

Quote:
Osiris might be in close proximity, relatively speaking, or in the same general arc of White Sun's space, or on the same side of White Sun, as well perhaps as Bellerophon. Then perhaps Santo is on the opposite side of White Sun (I'm not saying that is the fact). Ariel has a listed orbital duration of 93 years, Osiris is 50 years, and Santo is between. With all orbiting in the same direction (prograde), if Ariel and Osiris are nearby each other, how many centuries or millenia will elapse before they are NOT nearby, or before Santo has come around to the same side of White Sun as either one of them? Do you see? So, although they are moving in space, their proximity or relative location remains consistent.

Yep. This was the point I was trying to make about drawing up a coordinate system and mapping the orbits of the planets to determine which could be closer and not to the Core worlds than might otherwise be anticipated with just rankings from orbital body.

However, I suspect even then there's going to be some rim worlds that inexplicably will be in the range of a border worlds, and border worlds that will be in the range of rim worlds, and Mirands looks like a damn core world (when it was populated), but that's almost certainly because Blue Sun and/or the Alliance invested in it heavily as a testing ground.

I think there's multiple factors involved in what makes a border and rim world, and it may seem pretty arbitrary to us. I think the most basic argument seems to be socio-economic status, and that correlates with location because of shipping and settling distance from Core. Not always, but for early and major "border worlds" I imagine that'll hold true. The idea of a "border" versus "rim" seems to come from an antiquated notion of distance from the core, and more planets have become terraformed, the original sense of the designation has been lost, but the designation is still used because of tradition.

Also, good point about Santo. For a casino planet it does look pretty vacant, doesn't it? Might just be Serenity visited a bad lands and not many people live there. Maybe it is still more like a border world (does the Alliance look down on gambling?) than a rim world.

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:33 AM

MotV = "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" by Quantum Mechanix Inc?

Dr. Bourdier’s white paper = "The Verse in Numbers" version 1.1 by QMx

If this is correct.. Then Ita is listed as a moon of Whittier on page 75

Also before moving on... I want to clarify "confirmed separate sources".. What I was doing was looking for other sources that said the same thing (actually, I was looking for sources that gave me any hint of the information I needed). But it dawned on me late last night that; if source "A" posts something, and source "B" takes it as canon, and source "C" looks and sees that "A" and "B" say the same thing... It doesn't really mean that source "A" was correct. So I may stand correct on some of what I believed confirmed.

To answer one of your questions: No, I have not read any of the Companion books (things are a little too tight right now to afford them). My information is coming mainly from the following sources; Firefly the Series (including DVD bonus and commentary), Serenity the Movie (including DVD bonus and commentary, but not the Blu-Ray version), "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" and the companion "The 'Verse in Numbers" by Quantum Mechanix Inc (Although my use of the map is mainly what I can make out from pictures and the web, again, coinage), The Serenity Role-Playing game, and what ever I can dig up online (including the scripts).

That having been said, I also have not read the Threads you suggested.. Since those I have access to, before going any further, I believe I will do that (read your post once, start this reply, then as I was re-reading your post, I got hooked into those threads. It'll take me a little while to get through them...)...

One final thing before I go again... You asked for a canon source that makes Santo not a Core world... Kaylee mentioned in Trash "First time in the Core....", but in Shindig they landed on Santo... Shindig was aired before Trash (both on TV and in the boxed set order). Plus, in Ariel, Mal keeps everyone on Serenity because it is a Core world, and states there "aren't any jobs worth having". But it is obvious that there were jobs to be had on Santo... So far this is supposition and conjecture.

My other source is the RPG, which lists Santo as a Border World.. Although it was released in 2005, and I don't know the pedigree of it as a canon source.

Be back soon...

Caz

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:41 PM

You are talking about Kaylee's line in reference to Santo.
I thought in Ariel, Mal did not allow the crew off the boat at first, but then started on the job and all volunteered to gooff the boat for tasks, and Wash and Kaylee were in the salvage yard, when Kaylee says "First time in the Core..." because she finally got to get off ship, but she's stuck salvaging.
Previously, at the Pool Parlor on Santo in Shindig, Wash and Kaylee were not allowed off the boat. Wash mentions to Simon in BDM Serenity that this is often the case.
On Persephone, they all are off the boat, shopping and such. I conjured this is how Kaylee is envisioning "In the Core" and not whether they parked and she never left the boat - that might not count in her mind.

Also, Ariel predates Trash, and Ariel was, I thought, clearly a Core World.

On Miranda, they clearly stated that this was a major city they were at, where the beacon signal led them, and they ahd passed over many other cities on the way. This implies there was much non-city, or rural or barren areas as well. On Santo Mal would not prefer to pickpocket in a big city where purplebellies are crawling all about. Miranda may have 30 million or billion, but it is a huge body, many other worlds terraformed much earlier were not as large, and although their density may be more, the total population would not be as much.

I have heard tell of browncoats finding the Companion Books provided by Public Libraries, through their loan programs.

Yes, MotV = abbrv. Map Of the Verse, and White Paper = new name The Verse in Numbers.
You seem to have more info than I have. I again just checked TViN and again on the Page for Whittier, which appears to be pg 75, there are no moons listed at all. I am referring to the online copy. Can you provide details on which version you are looking at which includes Ita info? Or even any info on Whittier Moons? Thanks so much for your head's up on new data.

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Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cazaril:
MotV = "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" by Quantum Mechanix Inc?

Dr. Bourdier’s white paper = "The Verse in Numbers" version 1.1 by QMx

If this is correct.. Then Ita is listed as a moon of Whittier on page 75

Also before moving on... I want to clarify "confirmed separate sources".. What I was doing was looking for other sources that said the same thing (actually, I was looking for sources that gave me any hint of the information I needed). But it dawned on me late last night that; if source "A" posts something, and source "B" takes it as canon, and source "C" looks and sees that "A" and "B" say the same thing... It doesn't really mean that source "A" was correct. So I may stand correct on some of what I believed confirmed.

Yes, forensic auditing of data can be a tricky process.

Quote:

To answer one of your questions: No, I have not read any of the Companion books (things are a little too tight right now to afford them). My information is coming mainly from the following sources; Firefly the Series (including DVD bonus and commentary), Serenity the Movie (including DVD bonus and commentary, but not the Blu-Ray version), "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" and the companion "The 'Verse in Numbers" by Quantum Mechanix Inc (Although my use of the map is mainly what I can make out from pictures and the web, again, coinage), The Serenity Role-Playing game, and what ever I can dig up online (including the scripts).

That having been said, I also have not read the Threads you suggested.. Since those I have access to, before going any further, I believe I will do that (read your post once, start this reply, then as I was re-reading your post, I got hooked into those threads. It'll take me a little while to get through them...)...

One final thing before I go again... You asked for a canon source that makes Santo not a Core world... Kaylee mentioned in Trash "First time in the Core....", but in Shindig they landed on Santo... Shindig was aired before Trash (both on TV and in the boxed set order). Plus, in Ariel, Mal keeps everyone on Serenity because it is a Core world, and states there "aren't any jobs worth having". But it is obvious that there were jobs to be had on Santo... So far this is supposition and conjecture.

My other source is the RPG, which lists Santo as a Border World.. Although it was released in 2005, and I don't know the pedigree of it as a canon source.

Be back soon...

Caz

Hope those threads are helpful to you.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 4:34 AM

Not much time... and I'll try to post later.. but thought this might help..

I got my copy of TViN here... https://store.quantummechanix.com/Complete-and-Official-Map-of-the-Ver
se_p_54.html

It's possible they updated without any announcement.

Caz

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Monday, January 11, 2010 8:45 PM

Yep, that's a different linky through different channels for a different version. Thanks for the link. No gotta print that one out.

I did forget to mention that although the Map was released in Nov 2008, the White Paper upon which it was derived was not released until Feb 2009. So all contrived deductions about the Verse prior to then may be in conflict, and hence why I mentioned you can pay attention to the dates of sources.

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:18 AM