Would Zoe be a good mother? by Bytemite

FIREFLY UNIVERSE

Would Zoe be a good mother?

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POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Sunday, December 11, 2011 06:00
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/s8puhX
VIEWED: 22524
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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:17 AM

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Child-proofing Serenity, on the other hand...

Yikes!

But really funny to imagine... Is Mal going to do this in your story? Because I have this image of his mind breaking when he realizes there's going to be a KID on his ship, and running around in a panic with a hammer, and Kaylee crying, and Inara trying to talk some sense into this mad-man who was formerly the ship's captain.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:31 AM

BROWNCOATMIDWESTERNER

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
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Well, my days of not caring about other people's opinions of me is certainly coming to a middle.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with my opinion of you. I don't even know you. I've never seen you around here before now.

That was a signature line, not in the body of the comment. I am trying a couple of new ones, whaddya think?

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Even if you don't have a child, your CELLS DIVIDE. If they didn't you would die very quickly.

That's really not how cells in a multicellular organism work. A cell that does not stop dividing in a multicellular organism is called "cancer." Or "stem cells." Or "bacteria" (we're not exactly homogenously human).

Also, you're the one who said "All humans have the drive to procreate" and then you also said "procreation is making babies" and "humans aren't asexual."

Bacteria multiply. Viruses use your own cells for a mitosis engine, to replicate themselves. Cancer spreads, and is genetically disparate from the cells around it.

Stem Cells are genetic prototypes, that can adapt into other cell formats, but stem cells do multiply. Skin, Muscle, Bone, connective tissue, lung, blood vessel, gastronomic and every other cell format... DIVIDES.

I know my biology.

Procreation IS replication, both on a cellular level, and on a whole-organism level. Cells are alive, just as the organism they are arranged to build, is alive. Reproduction is a function of BOTH.

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Procreation is a strictly cooperative, hetero (as in different genders) sexual (as in half-DNA re-combinant reproduction) biological function, and it IS a biological drive. That isn't an opinion, that is science, and just flat truth.

Without a biological drive to reproduce ingrained in people as a rule, (which Pax diminishes and eliminates, evidently) humans DIE OUT, as a civilization and as a species. Maybe there are individual people who are exceptions, but Zoe wouldn't be one, by her comments which define this discussion.

Humans are not asexual self-replicating organisms, and same-sex pairings biologically can't reproduce... so having, as in CREATING a CHILD is distinctly "heterocentric."

(Each paragraph has a sentence that is false. The first paragraph has two. The second paragraph might also have two, depending on whether certain technology has been tested successfully)

It's not an argument about whether cells divide or whether species replace deaths to avoid extinction. It's an argument about whether All humans have a drive to procreate (make BABIES), and you knew full well when you first said it that you weren't talking about on a cellular level, and you weren't talking about on a species level.

The Pax didn't stop their CELLS from dividing. The Pax didn't kill off the entire human species, just the ones on Miranda. And the Pax is certainly not MY issue.

Much appreciated if you'd stop bringing the Pax up, because that's particularly offensive.

The definition of life is what it is.

As to Pax.
A: Pax isn't real, it is an example of what I am discussing, in the Firefly 'verse. I am not associating Pax with you, I am talking about relating my points to the 'verse, as an extreme example on a macro scale, of flouting nature for another reason... that one being political, and by flouting nature on a wide scale... destroying it.

It didn't spread, because the planet was quarantined, and it was an environmental cause, not a contagion.

B: My discussion is not inappropriate, so your offense taken is not my issue, it is yours.

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Just because you feel a certain way, does not negate the obvious, demonstrable, provable in biology and sociology, and readily apparent drive to procreate in Humans, as well as any other species. Humans just happen to be sentient enough to control or even defy their urges, if they decide to, and are complex organisms.

Uh. YES. According to the definition of "procreate" you were using at first, it DOES. Unless, by your contention, I am not HUMAN. And maybe homosexual mallard drakes are not DUCKS.

How hard is it for you to say that "MOST humans have the drive to procreate (as in MAKE BABIES)" that you have to continue defending something that I told you was offensive (and demonstrably false)?

My calm is getting a bit damaged...

What part of *exception to the rule* do you not understand?

In no way am I claiming, nor have EVER claimed that you are anything other than a sentient human, who's choices are your own.

If you have a medical condition, other than just making a sentient choice, then that is your issue, and doesn't change the nature of humanity. The nature of the human animal, in a biological sense, is not hinged on you, or any one individual, BECAUSE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE EXIST.

I have medical issues myself, and I don't treat them as a cause to be offended by what others say, nor do I think myself less than, or other than Human, by having medical issues.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:34 AM

PLATONIST

Soo...a top 3% highly trained male trauma surgeon and a quick get away mechanic now become babysitters? Gosh, I only had the neighbor down the street watching mine because she was on maternity leave, herself.

Seriously, I can see Inara (she watched River for Simon a few times) and she's the only one who is staying whose role isn't clearly defined, so I'll give you some wiggle room there, but the others have jobs to do, they're getting paid, like Mal says everyone's got to pull their own weight.

Like I said, not very realistic in the context of life on Serenity.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:43 AM

BYTEMITE

Not really a medical issue, but...

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Bacteria multiply. Viruses use your own cells for a mitosis engine, to replicate themselves. Cancer spreads, and is genetically disparate from the cells around it.

Stem Cells are genetic prototypes, that can adapt into other cell formats, but stem cells do multiply. Skin, Muscle, Bone, connective tissue, lung, blood vessel, gastronomic and every other cell format... DIVIDES.

Nope, there are neurons that don't divide. Also heart cells. Cancer is a cellular dysfunction, not a new species.

Bacteria you're right about, virus are as ever questionable and dubious (scientists aren't sure if it counts as reproduction if they can't use their own mechanisms to do so, and I wouldn't really call what they do mitosis, though replication is correct).

A "drive" is generally understood to be a "feeling, urge, or compulsion," which cells and viruses do not really have. They are governed by clockwork, by intake and outtake, they do not think or feel or want.

It is inaccurate to say all human cells divide or have a DRIVE to divide, just as it is inaccurate to say all humans have a drive to procreate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization

"Generalizations posit the existence of a domain or set of elements, as well as one or more common characteristics shared by those elements. As such, it is the essential basis of all valid deductive inferences. The process of verification is necessary to determine whether a generalization holds true for any given situation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

If a statement is Falsifiable, it means that observation or experiment will produce a reproducible result that is in conflict with it.

"For example, the assertion that "all swans are white" is falsifiable, because it is logically possible that a swan can be found which is not white."

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I have medical issues myself, and I don't treat them as a cause to be offended by what others say, nor do I think myself less than, or other than Human, by having medical issues.

I think neither of us really want to be arguing about this. I know you didn't call me not human. The problem is the logical progression and implication, but I know that's not something you intended, nor is it your fault. And I'm guilty of keeping this going - which I will try not to do on your next response.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 9:00 AM

BYTEMITE

Platonist: Well, on the other hand, if you're going to have a kid watched, a trained medical doctor is perhaps not the worst choice to have on hand.

Though, I suspect that there are certain aspects of it that Simon would fail completely at. Such as changing diapers, or not upsetting the baby, or being able to calm the baby down after upsetting it.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 9:19 AM

PLATONIST

I think the question is: Why would Simon AGREE to watch a baby?

Would watching the baby become an assignment from Mal, like cooking, cleaning? I'm not sure the crew signed on for babysitting.

Post BDM, it's "Three Men, a Baby and a Spaceship"

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 9:31 AM

BYTEMITE

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Why would Simon AGREE to watch a baby?

Probably wouldn't.

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Would watching the baby become an assignment from Mal, like cooking, cleaning? I'm not sure the crew signed on for babysitting.

But it sure would be funny. Especially if Mal tried to assign babysitting, and everyone just walked out and left him to deal with her.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:31 AM

EBFIDDLER

First of all, let me preface this by repeating what I said earlier: I do not see this happening in the context of The Show As It Stands. I see these things as POSSIBLE in a situation of the Show Having Evolved, along the lines of what I outlined in an earlier posting.

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would Simon AGREE to watch a baby?

He'd hardly be the first "over-qualified" person to take on the job of watching kids, if he did. What's the hang up? Is he too high and mighty to babysit?

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Would watching the baby become an assignment from Mal, like cooking, cleaning? I'm not sure the crew signed on for babysitting.

Why not? The crew didn't sign on to do septic vac duty, either, and yet they do. The crew of Serenity run a household together, and whatever jobs need to be done to run that household, will get done.

(*resisting the temptation to personalize this, keeping it to a discussion of Firefly characters*)

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Thursday, December 8, 2011 6:35 PM

KAREL

Flying on duct tape and a damaged registry.

Of course Zoe would make a good mother. She's had years of practice with Mal.

"Whatever is wrong with you is so right for me." -- Marillion.

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Thursday, December 8, 2011 6:44 PM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
Originally posted by ebfiddler:

Why not? The crew didn't sign on to do septic vac duty, either, and yet they do. The crew of Serenity run a household together, and whatever jobs need to be done to run that household, will get done.

Can I move in with you??! 'Cause I've been trying to get that across ta this household for a while and it's...just...not...coming.

To Karel....

Aye, right on

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Thursday, December 8, 2011 7:24 PM

BYTEMITE

I suppose, considering what she's dealing with, it's possible there's only so much sanity she can introduce Mal to, and it's entirely possible that as much as she puts in, it's not enough to balance out how reckless Mal is.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 11:20 AM

EBFIDDLER

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
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Originally posted by ebfiddler:

Why not? The crew didn't sign on to do septic vac duty, either, and yet they do. The crew of Serenity run a household together, and whatever jobs need to be done to run that household, will get done.

Can I move in with you??! 'Cause I've been trying to get that across ta this household for a while and it's...just...not...coming.

Did I say the jobs got done without whining, fussing, massive resistance, and Mal threatening to shoot anyone who doesn't do their gorram job?

Besides, it's Serenity we're talkin' about, not my household!

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Friday, December 9, 2011 1:32 PM

BYTEMITE

I once wrote a happy working song for the crew to sing if there'd ever been a musical episode, but I forgot to put it on paper. The only part I remember is at the very end, Mal walks into the cargo bay and sees them all singing and dancing and says/bellows (not sings) "What the HELL? Get back to work!"

I think it rhymed with "quirk."

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Friday, December 9, 2011 6:25 PM

WISHIMAY

Ohhh, it's the threat of firearms I've been messin up...

I'll have ta work on that

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Friday, December 9, 2011 6:41 PM

WISHIMAY

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Originally posted by BrowncoatMidwesterner:

I have medical issues myself, and I don't treat them as a cause to be offended by what others say, nor do I think myself less than, or other than Human, by having medical issues.

I'm not trying ta pick on Byte, but I do HAVE to say, eloquently put. I have tried to put that same thought in words before and failed... Some people do always have to let everyone know that they are different and they use it like a shield to ram a conversation with. They just can't help but take everything as personal and then argue it to death... That's been happening to me a lot of late...

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Saturday, December 10, 2011 6:28 AM

BYTEMITE

Also, again, not a medical thing. And if someone is flat out WRONG about something, I am GOING to correct them. I let Midwesterner know without battering them early on that I didn't agree with the statement, and I only continued when I was further provoked. I was willing to let it slide until they insisted on it.

Does everyone want to fight about this? I'm pretty sure we resolved this already. I'm willing to admit that yes, I take this personal, and this is the ONLY issue I take personal, because of some AWFUL experiences I've had living in Utah, such as being told by an Uncle that I'm going to hell because I'm not going to have kids. But when someone has a sore spot, maybe people shouldn't keep POKING at it, yeah? Midwesterner doesn't know better, but YOU do.

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Sunday, December 11, 2011 5:43 AM

WISHIMAY

My post got eaten, twice.

Byte, honny. I really really!!!!!!!!!! wasn't referring to you, and I doubt MWR meant anything by it eather.

Have kids, don't have kids. Prolly shouldn't start threads about people having kids and invite the discussion, unless you just wanna prove you're right about not having 'em and re-justify your position to yourself. And all things being equal, you are right. All things being equal, there is no logical damn sense ta havin em'.They're expensive, they're messy, they're a risk, and they can drive you out of your mind, at times.

Except that they are awesome. I'm not gonna get all fuzzy wuzzy about it, but yeah, once again I will say that you are missin out on a little piece of happy. And I'm sure that's all anybody wants for you Byte, is to be happy. Even your misguided blowhard of an uncle. And you aren't the only one that gets buggered by their friends and families for something or another. You might wanna try ta lighten up, 'cause if this truly is your standpoint, you're going to get buggered about it until you are no longer able to reproduce, and people are still going to try to make you regret it, even after. You chose this road, you know what people think about it, you're going to have to find a way to deal, or keep on fighting. YOUR choice.

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Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:00 AM

BYTEMITE

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Prolly shouldn't start threads about people having kids and invite the discussion, unless you just wanna prove you're right about not having 'em and re-justify your position to yourself.

That was not at ALL the point. As I said to Midwesterner, before we started into this side tangent, did it particularly sound like I DON'T want Zoe to have kids? I was only asking if she's ready for them, and I'm kind of on the fence about it, based on Zoe's attitudes and behaviours. There are some things that make it seem like she might be emotionally ready, and some things that don't.

Stop speculating about my motives, please. I can in fact be objective and take my personal biases out of consideration when discussing something that has nothing to do with me. For example, have you ever noticed I'm a Mal/Inara shipper? Does that mean I'm particularly interested in having any romantic entanglements of my own? HELL NO. To me, the very idea is repulsive.

I will keep fighting, because I'm not going to give up or give in.

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