Blatant Commercial Inquiry (RPG Related) by JohnSeavey

FIREFLY UNIVERSE

Blatant Commercial Inquiry (RPG Related)

POSTED BY: JOHNSEAVEY
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 6, 2004 05:34
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VIEWED: 7823
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Thursday, March 25, 2004 3:00 AM

First: Hi. My name's John Seavey, I've been a fan of Firefly ever since seeing the second episode, but I missed most of them when they were on (you know, that one week. No, not that week. They were pre-empted for the World Series that week.) So it wasn't until they came out on DVD that I bought, watched, and enjoyed them all.

One of the things that struck me about 'Firefly', when I saw it, was how suited it seemed to an RPG. It doesn't have the problems that a lot of properties have when translated to an RPG, in that it's a) very ensemble-themed, with no one central "hero" and lots of supporting characters, and b) very open, in that the story happening on the series isn't the center of that series' universe. Or, to put it simply, you could set a story within the 'Firefly' universe without involving Serenity or its crew at all, and it wouldn't seem forced. Perfect for an RPG. (I know, I know. This is probably the textbook definition of "preaching to the choir.")

So, having thought this, my mind immediately turns to the lucrative commercial world of role-playing games. (You, in the back, stop laughing!) I've been lucky enough to have done some work in the industry and have a few contacts, and one of the things that idly passes through my head from time to time is the thought of trying to interest someone in an official Firefly RPG.

So, basically, I was wondering: Would there be any interest in a tabletop Firefly RPG? (OK, that's a given, considering the audience--but would you actually buy it, given that RPG core books can cost upwards of $25?) Would there be any publishers you think would do a particularly good job with it? Any that you think would drive it into the ground within minutes? Any system preference (I've actually got an idea or two on how to make it with its own, entirely new, system, but I'm always haunted by a reviewer who wrote, "Unless you've got a good reason _not_ to make it d20, make it d20. At least that's playtested." Um...that wasn't in response to something I wrote, BTW.)

Any politely-expressed thoughts would be appreciated. I'd also love my ego stroked, if anyone out there has actually heard of me. :)

John

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:10 AM

HANS

You're right that Firefly would make a very good RPG. As many others have pointed out there is a lot of similarity with the Traveller universe (a mix of low tech and high tech, heroes on a tramp freighter traveling from planet to planet, doing whatever job that comes along "don't much care if it's legal"). Of course, an RPG dedicated to Firefly would be great.

I'm not an industry insider so I can't give you any hints on the publishing end of it. As a long time RPGer I can tell you that I would avoid this game like the plague if it was d20, a system I loathe and would not fit the style of Firefly at all ("Hi, I'm Bob, a 7th level Preacher, and if I get just a few more XP I can multi-class as a Gunslinger and get the quick-draw feat"). To use gamer speak, the character-oriented world of Firefly should have a narrativist rather than simulationist focus.

I haven't played the Buffy or Angel RPGs, but I hear that their system works well for this type of game play. I'm also fan of the Storyteller system (which is similar to Buffy's Unisystem, and I'm sure you're familiar with). Building a new system can lead to problems, but if your game focuses more on character and drama than detailed combat mechanics I think you'll be on the right track. Characters should be rich and detailed, not in numbers and percentages but in background history, motivation, allegiances, etc.

Actually, I think a mixture of the Traveller system (with a character creation focus on background histories and experiences) and Storyteller (with it's simple yet complete mechanics) would be great.

Good luck!

Hans

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:14 AM

TEELABROWN

Good luck John! Many people have been trying systems, and getting testers. I do hope for a task-based system, though.

_____________
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2 plus 2 make 4. If that is granted, all else follws"-Winston, 1984
Teela Brown, keeper of bad typing.
"No one reads these things any way."- Bart on Blackboard

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:17 AM

JARED

id definitely have a look, though me like many others are tempted to adjust existing systems or create a completely new one (d20 isnt half bad, though i only saw it used in the star wars rpg where some of the rules just didnt work.. especially armor in the first edition). but as firefly isnt that weapon/equipment focused it might work, though i think many claim its better for fantasy where you have a lot of melee combat.

but: seeing how characters in firefly are more important than their job i wouldnt feel well with class based rules. they create one dimensional cliches, the pilot, the engineer. but kaylee isnt "the mechanic", she's kaylee and happens to be good with machines.
so id hope for a system thats more like shadowrun (characterwise) where your "job" is defined by your talents and skills and not by being forced to pick one of a few predefined classes.

the problem with firefly is of course, that theres not that much material or background info. no magic, no aliens, not many source books (not exactly a bad thing.. says my wallet). most of it would have to be made up (either that or maybe joss has tons of background info in his head that needs to be.. extracted).

maps and plans: i usually prefer when i get away without that, but ranged combat often requires to know who is where, how much cover, how far away, etc. so it might be unavoidable.

just when i wanted to start on my own rpg rules.. like probably everybody playing them sooner or later does.. try at least (fantasy though and trying to limit tables, dice rolling etc. to a minimum).

character creation: i like that d20 isnt forcing you to a single way but offering a few methods. rolling dice is appealing, but most of all because you hope to roll above average and many players just roll and roll until they like their results. yes, that way is usually faster than spending hours trying to figure out how best to spend all these points on attributes and skills, but others enjoy just that (so thats why i like to have both options).

firefly could be pretty interesting for game masters. no magic means no one astrally traveling around places he's not supposed to be. theres no matrix allowing characters to hack systems from the other side of the galaxy and not the usual techno babble we know from star trek (no adventures solved by triple inverted tachyon cocktails with a shot of whiskey in harmonically modulated 3 short 3 long 3 short bursts to make the sun blow up and destroy the alliance).

afraid i cant suggest any publishers. im limited to systems by wizards and fasa/fanpro. wizards has pretty shocking prices (so many interesting books but they ask far too much money for far too few pages in some cases) and shadowrun was a nightmare of overcomplicating rules and the infamous dice avalanches (though if we're really just talking publishing that shouldnt matter).

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 5:08 AM

COLONELMASON

IMHO the best way to go would be to produce it as a "Sourcebook" for the two most popular systems -- GURPS and d20 rather than a stand-alone system. That would be your best chance of success I believe.

Colonel Robert L. Mason
US Colonial Marines

"Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry and I'm armed!"

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 3:44 PM

GRAVITYDRIVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
You're right that Firefly would make a very good RPG. As many others have pointed out there is a lot of similarity with the Traveller universe (a mix of low tech and high tech, heroes on a tramp freighter traveling from planet to planet, doing whatever job that comes along "don't much care if it's legal"). Of course, an RPG dedicated to Firefly would be great.

I'm not an industry insider so I can't give you any hints on the publishing end of it. As a long time RPGer I can tell you that I would avoid this game like the plague if it was d20, a system I loathe and would not fit the style of Firefly at all ("Hi, I'm Bob, a 7th level Preacher, and if I get just a few more XP I can multi-class as a Gunslinger and get the quick-draw feat"). To use gamer speak, the character-oriented world of Firefly should have a narrativist rather than simulationist focus.

I haven't played the Buffy or Angel RPGs, but I hear that their system works well for this type of game play. I'm also fan of the Storyteller system (which is similar to Buffy's Unisystem, and I'm sure you're familiar with). Building a new system can lead to problems, but if your game focuses more on character and drama than detailed combat mechanics I think you'll be on the right track. Characters should be rich and detailed, not in numbers and percentages but in background history, motivation, allegiances, etc.

Actually, I think a mixture of the Traveller system (with a character creation focus on background histories and experiences) and Storyteller (with it's simple yet complete mechanics) would be great.

Good luck!

Hans

Quote: "Hang on Travellers....!" Saynomore, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

To me, half the fun of the show is watching a Traveller scenario develop that I could never get going 30 odd years ago. Obviously, I'm unlikely to start this late, but it sure would be nice to see a special TRAVELLER supplement come out supporting Firefly. That is, if these guys are even talking to each other....which they should be!

P.S. If you still don't believe me, get ahold of the 'Azhanti High Lightning" cruiser plans published in 1980 and compare the control rooms...identical, down to the central pedestal and arraangement of consoles! As the AHL is designed to produce gravity via acceleration, it is essentially one very tall building....just like the "Dortmunder" with its' spires et al.

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 3:52 PM

ANJIN

And once again I get the opportunity to flog my RPG interpretation of the best show in the world.

Risus Firefly
http://webpages.charter.net/anjinm/g_risus.htm

(I want to see hands from people who were waiting for me to post this.)

---
Raven's Prayer
http://webpages.charter.net/anjinm

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:37 PM

CALDEEN

I run a Firefly RPG for some friends and use the Interlock system from Cyberpunk 2020. With several modifications, and more to come. Will be posting my full system on homepage soon. http://www.geocities.com/homealone111/
Use this for a couple of reasons. One, I like the system. It is skill based so no levels. Also no hitpoints. I did away with the starting profiles and just award a number of points to be split up among skills. Still pick one special ability/skill to define career. To go by the show: Kaylee is a Techie, Simon a Medtech, Inara is prostitue from the Wildside book modified of course. Book would be a modified Rockerboy, Mal Zoe and Jayne are solos, Wash is a Delta Jockey. River, well would have to see how she progresses. Then again it isnt a requirement hat you pick a special skill.

As far as making a supplement or original RPG for Firefly I imagine they will do that. With the Buffy and Angel ones out. One of the first things they will have to do is clear up the one system vs many systems debate.

I never really liked D&D. It can be fun but dont like the fact that used to be able to fall from orbit and live, if you had enough hitpoints. Dont care for shadowrun, or storyteller system because of the dice mechanics. I mean rolling 5 or more dice at one time and comparing each one to a difficulty number just seems way to clunky for my tastes.

I am not worried about the bullet with my name on it. Just the thousands marked "Occupant".
http://www.geocities.com/homealone111/

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 7:37 PM

SERGEANTX

John, if you're serious about getting a Firefly RPG going, please contact me. I'm got some stuff I'd like to develop further. I'm convinced no system out there does Firefly justice as is, especially not level/class based systems like D02.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 7:44 PM

BOOMERGOODHEART

Hubby has chimed in with "either GURPS or Alternity would work" and "he LOVED Azhanti High Lightning".

What can I say? I'm married to a nerd.

BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."

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Thursday, March 25, 2004 11:34 PM

JOHNSEAVEY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
John, if you're serious about getting a Firefly RPG going, please contact me. I'm got some stuff I'd like to develop further. I'm convinced no system out there does Firefly justice as is, especially not level/class based systems like D02.

At this point, my first obstacle is getting a company interested. (OK, that's actually my third obstacle. My first is finding time to work on it among all the other stuff I'm doing, my second is finding energy so I don't spend that time sleeping.) I don't think I'd do much development on the system without knowing there's someone who will pay me money to write it. (Rule #1: Writing that people will pay me money for always takes priority over writing that I'm doing for my own enjoyment.)

But, as stated, I am interested...and if anyone knows how to get in contact with the rights-holders to 'Firefly', sounding them out on an RPG would also be tremendously helpful. :)

John

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Friday, March 26, 2004 2:10 AM

SERGEANTX

It's my understanding that Eden, the company that makes the Unisystem and the Buffy game, had expressed an interest but passed on the project. I'm not sure if they'll reconsider as the movie approaches. We may have a window open at present. E-mail me if you'd like to put together a proposal.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Friday, March 26, 2004 5:14 AM

RANGER

Quote:
Originally posted by GravityDrive:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
You're right that Firefly would make a very good RPG. As many others have pointed out there is a lot of similarity with the Traveller universe (a mix of low tech and high tech, heroes on a tramp freighter traveling from planet to planet, doing whatever job that comes along "don't much care if it's legal"). Of course, an RPG dedicated to Firefly would be great.

I'm not an industry insider so I can't give you any hints on the publishing end of it. As a long time RPGer I can tell you that I would avoid this game like the plague if it was d20, a system I loathe and would not fit the style of Firefly at all ("Hi, I'm Bob, a 7th level Preacher, and if I get just a few more XP I can multi-class as a Gunslinger and get the quick-draw feat"). To use gamer speak, the character-oriented world of Firefly should have a narrativist rather than simulationist focus.

I haven't played the Buffy or Angel RPGs, but I hear that their system works well for this type of game play. I'm also fan of the Storyteller system (which is similar to Buffy's Unisystem, and I'm sure you're familiar with). Building a new system can lead to problems, but if your game focuses more on character and drama than detailed combat mechanics I think you'll be on the right track. Characters should be rich and detailed, not in numbers and percentages but in background history, motivation, allegiances, etc.

Actually, I think a mixture of the Traveller system (with a character creation focus on background histories and experiences) and Storyteller (with it's simple yet complete mechanics) would be great.

Good luck!

Hans

Quote: "Hang on Travellers....!" Saynomore, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

To me, half the fun of the show is watching a Traveller scenario develop that I could never get going 30 odd years ago. Obviously, I'm unlikely to start this late, but it sure would be nice to see a special TRAVELLER supplement come out supporting Firefly. That is, if these guys are even talking to each other....which they should be!

P.S. If you still don't believe me, get ahold of the 'Azhanti High Lightning" cruiser plans published in 1980 and compare the control rooms...identical, down to the central pedestal and arraangement of consoles! As the AHL is designed to produce gravity via acceleration, it is essentially one very tall building....just like the "Dortmunder" with its' spires et al.

This is my thinking as well. I was working on Firefly Traveller on the Blog here, but that project has gone into hiatus for a couple of reasons (real world time constraints and I also was thinking that it might actually make a workable commercial project if I did it right).

So, to answer your original question, here is what I know about this and where you can go to get more info. All of this is based on bits and pieces of info I have picked up from following various projects like this on line, so take it for what it is worth.

The first thing you need is a licence from the copyright holders. In this case I imagine that would be Joss and the production studio and probably Fox TV. If you are going to use an existing game system then you also need a licence from the game producer to use their system. All of these will come with strings attached for content, as no one will let you play with their property without content approval.

For example, a licence to use the Traveller name cost a minimum of $1,000 and MWM retains final approval of content and product. MWM pulled the licence from the company publishing T4 because of the low quality of the product they were producing, which he felt was hurting the Traveller brand name.

If you want to talk to people who have done it before, go to travellerrpg.com and e-mail the guy who runs it (Hunter Gordon)or post a note on the Citizens of the Imperium web board. He did all of this to get the T20 game published. There are also several people on that board who have written for the GURPS system and can tell you about that process as well.

I hope that helps. Best of luck!!

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Friday, March 26, 2004 9:22 AM

JOHNSEAVEY

Hmm...two responses, both ones I feel a need to respond to, but both on very different tracks of thought. I know! I'll talk about both in a confusing fashion! :)

First, let me just say that while I'm interested in doing a Firefly RPG, I'm in no way interested in self-publishing. I plan to let someone else take the financial risks, thanks all the same. (It's fine so long as I don't get bitter when they become millionaires. :) ) So my guess is that I wouldn't need to personally obtain the rights; however, any pitch I make would be enhanced if I knew the status of the rights and had some sort of good-faith discussion with the rights-holders.

And second, my dealings in the past with Eden have led me to believe that they're not necessarily viable for what I had in mind; basically, Eden takes its writers from the ranks of its playtesters, and under Rule #1, I just don't have the time and energy to playtest for Eden for free for an indeterminate period of time to prove to them that I've got ideas that they'll pay me to write, not while other companies are willing to pay me to write for them as things stand now. (Bitter? Me? Nah.)

John

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Thursday, April 1, 2004 7:03 AM

CAPTAINCERENTZ

I would NEVER purchase a d20 based Firefly game. I have to agree with a previous poster on this issue.

What I believe would work is something along the lines of the WEG d6 Rules. What makes it work is the lack of levels, the 'template' format for character generation and advancement.

The only thing I can see needing reworking is the way that vehicle/ship damage would be handled. The WEG rules, at least with the 2nd Edition Star Wars game is just to vague. There is nothing taking into account accumulative damage, what happens when a ship is slightly damaged 6 times in a row? Does is bump up to heavily or severely damaged?

Anyway, work that out and the d6 system would work perfectly for a 'In Media Rez' kind of game, which is just like the opening of each Firefly episode.

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Thursday, April 1, 2004 7:58 AM

TOMANTA

Quote:

OK, that's a given, considering the audience--but would you actually buy it, given that RPG core books can cost upwards of $25?)

I don't know what RPG books you have been purchasing, but a lot of the core books I've purchased lately [especially based off licensed properties] have cost closer to $40 than $25. . .

Quote:

What I believe would work is something along the lines of the WEG d6 Rules. What makes it work is the lack of levels, the 'template' format for character generation and advancement.

I think D20 could work well if done as a classless system [I have seen a few ways to do this... I like CoC D20].

Other than that... I would LOVE to see ANYTHING done with the WEG system, by far my favorite. Their Star Wars books were top-notch.

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Thursday, April 1, 2004 8:14 AM

CAPTAINCERENTZ

Quote:

I think D20 could work well if done as a classless system [I have seen a few ways to do this... I like CoC D20].

Other than that... I would LOVE to see ANYTHING done with the WEG system, by far my favorite. Their Star Wars books were top-notch.

The problem with the d20 system is the 'endless' listings of feats that, if applied to the characters in the television show, would have made the characters much less 'real'. Being 'real' is at the core of that series.

Everything from the way that 'Serenity' maneurvered in space/atmosphere and the lack of sound for the outside of vehicle space shots were put together to provide a sense that everything happening in the show as very plausible. The d20 rules is geared for creating very unrealistic events with very implausible capabilities attributed to 'mere mortals' as was show in the Firefly series.

With the d20 Rules, everyone could be madly skilled 'Jedi-like' SOB's that could twist, flip and tear through squads of enemies with nary a second thought. (That's fun too, but it doesn't capture the essence of Firefly.)

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Saturday, April 3, 2004 5:04 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Here's my WIP Firefly Universe d20 roleplay, as I thought it might interest people to read.
I say firefly universe roleplay and not firefly roleplay as obviously real people could never do the stuff you can do by even 3rd level d20, so it's going to be different to the series. There are a lot of feats without descriptions, as I havn't had the time to copy them over from my d&d book, but they're available in pretty much any d20 book (or at least I think they are, I've got d&d and d20 modern and it's in both of them :P) also there's a bunch of stuff I want to rework and add, so don't take it as finished by any means. Equipment list isn't finished yet either, but take a look, see what you think. I've also started work on a galaxy map, but it's not worth posting it yet as it's just notes.
Email me if you have any comments: chronicthehedgehog@hotmail.com

http://www.estador.co.uk/firefly/frontiers.pdf
http://www.estador.co.uk/firefly/equipment.xls

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Tuesday, April 6, 2004 5:34 AM

CAPTAINCERENTZ

You are breaking the d20 Open Gaming License by having information regarding the creation of a player character class. (Unless the license has drastically changed since I have last read it.) Your class creation information regarding the 'Companion' could get you into trouble with WotC regardless of whether or not you are looking to profit from your work.

The d20 rules are designed to force people to purchase the d20 'core books'. There are severe limits on what you can do with those rules due to that. It is because of those rules in the d20 license that I have little interest in making, marketing or creating anything using the d20 rules.

From my reading of it the d20 license was designed in such a way to maximize WotC's profits while taking away the risk of having to keep on hand a large amount of creative talent, which would explain the lack of original material coming out of WotC these days. This is my opinion only, I can't state that this is fact.

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