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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.

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Slaves also understood that their odds of liberation were better under British rule than independence. Over the course of the war, about 100,000 African slaves escaped, died, or were killed, and tens of thousands enlisted in the British army, far more than joined the rebels. "Black Americans' quest for liberty was mostly tied to fighting for the British — the side in the War for Independence that offered them freedom," historian Gary Nash writes in The Forgotten Fifth, his history of African Americans in the revolution. At the end of the war, thousands who helped the British were evacuated to freedom in Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and England.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.


KPO

How do you mean?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.


KPO

How do you mean?

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From the article itself;

"Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada."

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.


KPO

How do you mean?

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From the article itself;

"Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada."

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Brenda

And with no loss of life.

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Living that way may have been fine with Canada Brenda, but not with America.

I wonder what the slaves in America would say if asked, would you prefer to wait one hundred years to gain your independence if no one would get hurt. Actually I know what they would have said because they too armed themselves in the struggle.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Huh, and a sane gun control policy didn't even make the list:

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/american-revolution-mistake

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by KPO:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.

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How do you mean?

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From the article itself;

"Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada."

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And with no loss of life.

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Living that way may have been fine with Canada Brenda, but not with America.

I wonder what the slaves in America would say if asked, would you prefer to wait one hundred years to gain your independence if no one would get hurt. Actually I know what they would have said because they too armed themselves in the struggle.

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Understood THGRII and agreed. I suppose as I think about my little comment now, maybe without the taint of slavery the US might have been able to wait out its independance. Without firing a shot.

Not to say those 100years in Canada were all quiet. Shots were being fired up here at the First Nations and the children of the French trappers and First Nations women, the Metis.

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All countries have a dark past. Par for the course I guess.

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And 20years after your Civil war ended, we had the Riel Rebellion up here in Canada. That gave us the province of Manitoba.

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Think of all the countries which have been born and/or have modeled their government after the American template, all following the American Independence.

Delaying American Independence by 100 years would have what effect on the rest of the world.

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And as I understand it, the fake abolition of Slavery in Britain was in 1807 and the actual abolition was in 1833. Did Slaves of 1776 have Nostrodamus counseling them?

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Think of all the countries which have been born and/or have modeled their government after the American template, all following the American Independence.

Delaying American Independence by 100 years would have what effect on the rest of the world.

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That's a good point, ideas of freedom did reverberate around the world following American independence. Having said that it's hard to point to concrete examples of good resulting from this. The French revolution? Hmm. One of the points of the article is that the USA's system of democracy is a bad one, and so to the extent that countries have copied it that has been bad for the world. This is all sacrilege, I know, but healthy to talk about.

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And as I understand it, the fake abolition of Slavery in Britain was in 1807 and the actual abolition was in 1833. Did Slaves of 1776 have Nostrodamus counseling them?

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This point was addressed (so few of the article's detractors seem to have actually read the thing). Slavery was abolished in England in 1772. From the article:

"...tens of thousands enlisted in the British army, far more than joined the rebels. "Black Americans' quest for liberty was mostly tied to fighting for the British — the side in the War for Independence that offered them freedom," historian Gary Nash writes in The Forgotten Fifth, his history of African Americans in the revolution. At the end of the war, thousands who helped the British were evacuated to freedom in Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and England."

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Originally posted by Brenda:
Have you forgotten that you, yourselves had to have help from the French crown? You couldn't field enough men to defeat the British alone.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by KPO:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Assumptions run amuck is all that article is about.

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How do you mean?

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From the article itself;

"Of course, evaluating the wisdom of the American Revolution means dealing with counterfactuals. As any historian would tell you, this is messy business. We obviously can't be entirely sure how America would have fared if it had stayed in the British Empire longer, perhaps gaining independence a century or so later, along with Canada."

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And with no loss of life.

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Living that way may have been fine with Canada Brenda, but not with America.

I wonder what the slaves in America would say if asked, would you prefer to wait one hundred years to gain your independence if no one would get hurt. Actually I know what they would have said because they too armed themselves in the struggle.

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Understood THGRII and agreed. I suppose as I think about my little comment now, maybe without the taint of slavery the US might have been able to wait out its independance. Without firing a shot.

Not to say those 100years in Canada were all quiet. Shots were being fired up here at the First Nations and the children of the French trappers and First Nations women, the Metis.

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All countries have a dark past. Par for the course I guess.

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And 20years after your Civil war ended, we had the Riel Rebellion up here in Canada. That gave us the province of Manitoba.

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The forgotten assumption amidst this exchange. America would achieve Independence.
A resurrection of a form of Democratic Republic would have occurred.
California would have won Independence from Mexico.
ANY country would have been granted Independence - with British arrogance proven instead of defeated,
why would they even consider succumbing to a concept of granting Independence to any
property they owned?
Why would the King have allowed Brits to vote for the first time in 1802 if America had not won
Independence?
How can you assume the Crown would have granted Independence to America?
And if that ever happened, another 100 years later Canada could be granted the same?

The Independence of America's 13 Colonies/States changed the face of world politics.
The establishment of any form of Democracy since the demise of the Greek versions was a reverberating gong for the world populations.
Would France have fared so well for the 100 years following 1776? Or still existed?
Would Canada be French ruled? Would Spain control Mexico?

Assuming the world would be as cuddly as it became, without America winning Independence, is a
dangerous assumption to make.

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by Brenda:
Have you forgotten that you, yourselves had to have help from the French crown? You couldn't field enough men to defeat the British alone.

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I don't think that I made any reference suggesting forgotten alliances. In fact, I did try to point out how alliances at the time, and following, would have been changed, altered, created or extinguished had the Declaration of Independence not been sent to King George, and the newborn Republic which was formed as result.

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My use of the word "you" was a general reference to people speaking in this thread. Not specifically to you, JSF.
It seemed to me from reading this thread that you all were going round and round and round trying to say that you did it on your own when you didn't.

And even though the French lost at the Plains of Abraham, we in Canada still have a very strong French influence.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Think of all the countries which have been born and/or have modeled their government after the American template, all following the American Independence.

Delaying American Independence by 100 years would have what effect on the rest of the world.

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That's a good point, ideas of freedom did reverberate around the world following American independence. Having said that it's hard to point to concrete examples of good resulting from this. The French revolution? Hmm. One of the points of the article is that the USA's system of democracy is a bad one, and so to the extent that countries have copied it that has been bad for the world. This is all sacrilege, I know, but healthy to talk about.

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What is sacrilege is that a system of democracy which you claim as bad is worse than any discussion of any form of democracy at all. I don't recall any system in the world which exactly duplicates the democracy which is America's experiment (including current America) - but all can learn from it's existence and mistakes. Having no example would deny the reachable goals of those who strive for a more perfect union.

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And as I understand it, the fake abolition of Slavery in Britain was in 1807 and the actual abolition was in 1833. Did Slaves of 1776 have Nostrodamus counseling them?

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This point was addressed (so few of the article's detractors seem to have actually read the thing). Slavery was abolished in England in 1772. From the article:

"...tens of thousands enlisted in the British army, far more than joined the rebels. "Black Americans' quest for liberty was mostly tied to fighting for the British — the side in the War for Independence that offered them freedom," historian Gary Nash writes in The Forgotten Fifth, his history of African Americans in the revolution. At the end of the war, thousands who helped the British were evacuated to freedom in Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and England."

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I had read that. Those points did not state Abolition in 1772 in England. You claim this is the case, but I find it hard to believe. The references I found indicated 1807 as the lip-service version, and 1833 as the version which was more serious.
The 1786 Zong Massacre decision of Lord Chief Justice William Murray was attributed as a "contribution towards the abolition of Slavery in Britain" and yet you claim that 14 years prior the abolition was already accomplished. I understand that communications were slow back then, but 14 years for the news of abolition to get from one government building in London to another government building in London seems a bit of fantasy.

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What is sacrilege is that a system of democracy which you claim as bad is worse than any discussion of any form of democracy at all. I don't recall any system in the world which exactly duplicates the democracy which is America's experiment (including current America) - but all can learn from it's existence and mistakes. Having no example would deny the reachable goals of those who strive for a more perfect union.

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Those points did not state Abolition in 1772 in England. You claim this is the case, but I find it hard to believe. The references I found indicated 1807 as the lip-service version, and 1833 as the version which was more serious.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Those points did not state Abolition in 1772 in England. You claim this is the case, but I find it hard to believe. The references I found indicated 1807 as the lip-service version, and 1833 as the version which was more serious.

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See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

1772: Somersett's case held that no slave could be forcibly removed from Britain. This case was generally taken at the time to have decided that the condition of slavery did not exist under English law in England and Wales, and emancipated the remaining ten to fourteen thousand slaves or possible slaves in England and Wales, who were mostly domestic servants.

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That sounds like lip service.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Huh, and a sane gun control policy didn't even make the list:

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/american-revolution-mistake

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Although it's total bullshit, THIS is the caliber of article that "drunk me" would write if I wasn't busy these days posting about Zombie flicks and 8-bit musical masterpieces. The kind akin to posts I'm embarrassed about the next day and ask myself "I posted WHAT????" The reason that I cancelled my Facebook account months ago.

This entire article is based off of opinions, conjecture, outright wishful thinking. To assume that ANYthing stated in this article is fact would to be to assume that the people running the British Government pre-Independence were any more noble and any less corrupt than the same rich and privileged white people who have been running the show here for the last going-on-250 years.

By the way, black people, women, and other "minorities".... You're quickly taking over a lot of facets of the American Government these days, and last time I checked things sure as fuck aren't any better.....

PEOPLE are PEOPLE, GREED is GREED, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.

PERIOD.

It doesn't matter that White Males happened to be so fucking good at it for so long that somehow we're the only ones capable of being the bad guys in Liberal circles. Check your history. White Males aren't the only bad guys, although there the only ones you'll read about as a kid in a Social Studies class today....

Hell... you don't even have to take a time machine to see other examples of fucked-upedness....

Is Hugo Chavez white? How about Saddam Hussien? The Kim Jong Family Tree???

At least women have been able to vote and teach in this country since long before I was born. I keep hearing bitching about salary discrepencies in this country, but my sis-in-law makes 10 times what I did at my old job. She even makes twice what I made at the best job I ever had.

Do you think that gays can get married today in Tehran or Chongjin?


Go fuck yourself for posting this on July 2nd, Dylan Matthews.

Luckily you live in one of those countries that don't outright ban you from posting things like this. There sure are a lot of them.

If we keep going down that Liberal fuck hill, we're going to be one of them.

Thanks for being part of the problem.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Huh, and a sane gun control policy didn't even make the list:

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/american-revolution-mistake

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Although it's total bullshit, THIS is the caliber of article that "drunk me" would write if I wasn't busy these days posting about Zombie flicks and 8-bit musical masterpieces. The kind akin to posts I'm embarrassed about the next day and ask myself "I posted WHAT????" The reason that I cancelled my Facebook account months ago.

This entire article is based off of opinions, conjecture, outright wishful thinking. To assume that ANYthing stated in this article is fact would to be to assume that the people running the British Government pre-Independence were any more noble and any less corrupt than the same rich and privileged white people who have been running the show here for the last going-on-250 years.

By the way, black people, women, and other "minorities".... You're quickly taking over a lot of facets of the American Government these days, and last time I checked things sure as fuck aren't any better.....

PEOPLE are PEOPLE, GREED is GREED, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.

PERIOD.

It doesn't matter that White Males happened to be so fucking good at it for so long that somehow we're the only ones capable of being the bad guys in Liberal circles. Check your history. White Males aren't the only bad guys, although there the only ones you'll read about as a kid in a Social Studies class today....

Hell... you don't even have to take a time machine to see other examples of fucked-upedness....

Is Hugo Chavez white? How about Saddam Hussien? The Kim Jong Family Tree???

At least women have been able to vote and teach in this country since long before I was born. I keep hearing bitching about salary discrepencies in this country, but my sis-in-law makes 10 times what I did at my old job. She even makes twice what I made at the best job I ever had.

Do you think that gays can get married today in Tehran or Chongjin?


Go fuck yourself for posting this on July 2nd, Dylan Matthews.

Luckily you live in one of those countries that don't outright ban you from posting things like this. There sure are a lot of them.

If we keep going down that Liberal fuck hill, we're going to be one of them.

Thanks for being part of the problem.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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I know this wasn't ignored because it wasn't well written or poignant...

Please allow me to re-introduce this topic to the RWED for debate....



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
People like to think that the American Revolution was the start of something wonderful.

Well, it was the start of something alright- a genocidal rampage thru the N American natives,

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and the institution of slavery which was prolonged for over 150 years. It will probably end when the USA fails to achieve its dream of perfect worldwide hegemony.

Would the USA have been better if we had NOT revolted from England?

We can look at New Zealand, Canada, and Australia as possible examples of "non-revolting" colonies. They aren't as big and powerful as the USA. OTOH, they haven't done as much damage either. On the third hand they cooperate quite nicely with the USA in its plans for global world domination.

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Originally posted by Brenda:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
People like to think that the American Revolution was the start of something wonderful.

Well, it was the start of something alright- a genocidal rampage thru the N American natives, and the institution of slavery which was prolonged for over 150 years. It will probably end when the USA fails to achieve its dream of perfect worldwide hegemony.

Would the USA have been better if we had NOT revolted from England?

We can look at New Zealand, Canada, and Australia as possible examples of "non-revolting" colonies. They aren't as big and powerful as the USA. OTOH, they haven't done as much damage either. On the third hand they cooperate quite nicely with the USA in its plans for global world domination.





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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sig, Canada was invovled in WWI because of England and being part of the Commonwealth, samething with WW2. We were in Korea as part of the UN, so no ties to the US and as for Vietnam any Canadian who wanted to go over there had to sign on with your troops. We weren't involved with Vietnam.

Though yes we were there in the first Gulf war but so was Britian and that was how we ended up in Afghanistan. The second go around most of my understanding is that we provided support to your troops. Not sure but I don't think there were any Canadian boots on the ground in Iraq or Libya.

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