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To a certain extent, the old adage “out of sight, out of mind” is unavoidable for anyone, but we don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that Western society and especially the American public, exhibit a generalized ignorance to events taking place beyond their borders that’s completely out of synch with the degree to which most Westerners have easy access to information. That is, if the US public cared to know what was going on outside of suburbia and beyond the Starbucks drive-throughs and the strip mall Targets they most certainly could find out, but that would likely mean discovering all manner of really inconvenient and often disturbing things and so, at the end of the day, willful ignorance allows everyone to perpetuate the myth that everything is fine.

For its part, the media is more than happy to expose harsh realities as long as they’re conducive to ratings so, for instance, “unarmed black teen shot 18 times by angry white police officer” works well, while “Syria’s bloody civil war continues unabated” does not because to the largely ignorant public, Syria might as well be Mars and if for some inexplicable reason, life or death ended up coming down to being able to correctly identify Syria on an unlabeled map, well, it would be time to start praying.

Sometimes, however, the media stumbles across or, more likely, is fed an image or a series of images that are so indelible that they’re forced to run them, and the public consciousness is, if but for a fleeting moment, jarred out of its perpetual stupor.

That’s what happened in 2013 when YouTube videos appeared to show the victims of a so-called “gas attack” that Bashar al-Assad decided, apparently out of the clear blue sky, to launch on his own people even though were the story true, it would seem to have been a rather peculiar strategy given that the strongman was fully aware that the US was just waiting on an excuse to launch a few cruise missiles. Then, a little more than two years later, we got another example of imagery powerful enough to focus the public’s attention on a far-away civil war when the body of a drowned toddler washed up on a beach in Turkey.

And even though connecting the proverbial dots isn’t something everyday Westerners are particularly adept at, it wasn’t too difficult for the media to paint the picture:
1) drowned toddler was a refugee,
2) there’s a refugee crisis thanks largely to a war going on in a place called Syria which isn’t on Mars but is in fact in the Middle East,
3) this place called Syria is where ISIS is,
4) the Russians are there too.

It would be difficult to come up with a narrative more conducive to rallying public support for an invasion if you were trying. And indeed, maybe someone was trying, because as Reuters reports, the drowned child’s father might not have been a fleeing migrant after all, but rather a people smuggler and Aylan might have been on the boat not because his family intended to save their child from the horrific violence escalating daily in Syria, but rather because profiting off of other people’s misery was his father’s chosen profession and he often brought his family along for the ride. Reuters has the story, excerpts from which are presented below.

Via Reuters:

The father of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi was working with smugglers and driving the flimsy boat that capsized trying to reach Greece, other passengers on board said, in an account that disputes the version he gave last week.

Ahmed Hadi Jawwad and his wife, Iraqis who lost their 11-year-old daughter and 9-year-old son in the crossing, told Reuters that Abdullah Kurdi panicked and accelerated when a wave hit the boat, raising questions about his claim that somebody else was driving the boat.

A third passenger confirmed their version of events, which Reuters could not independently verify.

"The story that (Aylan's father) told is untrue. I don't know what made him lie, maybe fear," Jawwad said in Baghdad at his in-laws' house on Friday. "He was the driver from the very beginning until the boat sank."

He said Kurdi swam to them and begged them to cover up his true role in the incident. His wife confirmed the details.

Jawwad said his point of contact with the smugglers was called Abu Hussein. "Abu Hussein told me that he (Kurdi) was the one who organized this trip," he said.

Amir Haider, 22, another Iraqi who said he was on the same boat, confirmed Jawwad's account and identified Kurdi as the driver. He told Reuters by telephone from Istanbul that he initially thought Kurdi was Turkish because he was not speaking, but later heard him talking to his wife in Syrian Arabic.

A photo of Aylan Kurdi's body in the surf off a popular Turkish holiday resort prompted sympathy and outrage at the perceived inaction of developed nations in helping thousands of refugees using dangerous sea-routes to reach Europe, many of whom have fled Syria's four-year civil war.

And more from The Daily Telegraph:

The father of the three-year-old boy whose lifeless body washed up on a Turkish beach, rocking the whole world to its core, has been accused of being a people smuggler who captained the fateful voyage.

A woman who lost two of her three children on the vessel made the stunning claims to Network Ten via her cousin, who lives in Sydney, on Friday night.

It was claimed on Friday night that his ­father Abdullah was a people smuggler who captained the dodgy boat for its entire voyage, capsizing in heavy seas and killing at least 12 people.

Iraq-based Zainab Abbas, via her Sydney-based cousin Lara Tahseen, told Ten News she paid $10,000 for the voyage and Aylan’s father was in charge of the boat.

“He was a smuggler, yes, he was the one driving the boat,’’ she said.

She claimed a separate people smuggler to whom they paid the money had told them the captain was taking his own children on the voyage.

“He said ‘don’t worry, the captain of the boat, the driver, is going to bring his two kids and his wife,” she said.

The woman claimed the boat was travelling faster than its capabilities and had too many desperate asylum seekers on board.

The family of five was told there would only be six on the boat but when they got on there were 14.

“He was going crazy, like speed,” she said. “He was the one driving the boat right from the start. When they set off five minutes in he was looking left and right, worried, then he was speeding. Even his wife was screaming at him to slow down,” she said.

Ms Tahseen said when the family arrived in Istanbul they phoned a number they were told was Mr Kurdi’s but another man answered.

They paid this man the money and he told them when they arrived at the island they were heading for, on which they would move to another boat to go to Greece, to phone him.

He and Mr Kurdi would then split the money, Ms Tahseen claimed. The trip was only supposed to take 15 minutes.

Now obviously, what happened to Aylan (and to an untold number of other refugees fleeing the Mid-East) is a tragedy and whether or not his father was the man driving the boat and profiting from the refugee crisis or was in fact a victim fleeing war like everyone else doesn’t change that (and in many ways, if the above account is true, Aylan's fate is actually even more tragic), but what is does change is the narrative being fed to the public.

It also seems - again, assuming the story outlined above is accurate - that it's possible Kurdi brought his family on the trip in order to make those paying him for the ride more confident in his ability to get them from Turkey to Greece safely. "If I was a people smuggler, why would I put my family in the same boat as the other people?" Kurdi asked MailOnline.

That's a good question, but one (admittedly macabre) explanation is that it was a kind of people smuggling marketing ploy, something along the lines of this: "you know you can trust me because I have my own family on board." A less conspiratorial take on that theory would be that he did intend to get his family out of the Mid-East and so he simply overloaded the boat because the collective safety of the passengers was secondary to getting his family out of harm's way, but even if that's the case, the exact opposite ended up happening because by putting too many people on the boat, he inadvertently doomed Aylan, and besides, anyway you look at it, he was looking to make $5,000 off of the other passengers' desperation.

Coming full circle, the greatest tragedy here is that the entire episode will be used as an excuse to drop still more bombs on Syria and eventually to justify a ground invasion and because the public can't see past the various smokescreens being employed here, Americans and Europeans will end up tacitly accepting the patently ridiculous idea that the best way to stem the flow of refugees is to bomb the place from which the refugees are fleeing.

Of course the entire thing is made even more absurd by the verifiable fact that it was the West which destabilized Syria in the first place meaning Washington along with its European allies are now set to use a massive refugee crisis of their own making to create a still more massive refugee crisis by effectively doubling down on efforts to destabilize the country on the way to ousting Assad. And with that bolded passage in mind, we bring you what is quite possibly the most ironic statement to ever come from the mouth of a sitting US president:

Obama on Friday: "We are going to be engaging Russia to let them know that you can’t continue to double down on a strategy that’s doomed to failure in Syria."

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Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?

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Thanks for the dead-child images Siggy.

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Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?-SIGNY
Well that's a good thing to ask. Afghanistan's decades long descent into violence and barbarity began with the USSR's bloody invasion of that country.

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Iraq's violence was triggered by an idiotic and calamitous war led by George W Bush.

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Syria's violence was triggered by a barbaric regime (backed by Russia) with its crackdown on peaceful, popular, pro-democratic protests.

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Of course in your mind all of this war and dvastation were caused single-handedly by one entity - the USA aka Mordor aka The Great Satan. It must be comforting to have such a simplistic understanding of such a complex world.

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Pundits and politicians are already looking for a convenient explanation for the twin Middle East disasters of the rise of Islamic State and the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria.

The genuine answer is politically unpalatable, because the primary cause of both calamities is U.S. war and covert operations in the Middle East, followed by the abdication of U.S. power and responsibility for Syria policy to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni allies.

The emergence of a new state always involves a complex of factors. But over the past three decades, U.S. covert operations and war have entered repeatedly and powerfully into the chain of causality leading to Islamic State’s present position.

The causal chain begins with the role of the U.S. in creating a mujahedeen force to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a key facilitator in training that force in Afghanistan. Without that reckless U.S. policy, the blowback of the later creation of al-Qaida would very likely not have occurred.

But it was the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq that made al-Qaida a significant political-military force for the first time. The war drew Islamists to Iraq from all over the Middle East, and their war of terrorism against Iraqi Shiites was a precursor to the sectarian wars to follow.

The actual creation of Islamic State is also directly linked to the Iraq War. The former U.S. commander at Camp Bucca in Iraq has acknowledged that the detention of 24,000 prisoners, including hard-core al-Qaida cadres, Baathist officers and innocent civilians, created a “pressure cooker for extremism.”

It was during their confinement in that camp during the U.S. troop surge in Iraq 2007 and 2008 that nine senior al-Qaida military cadres planned the details of how they would create Islamic State.

The Obama administration completed the causal chain by giving the green light to a major war in Syria waged by well-armed and well-trained foreign jihadists.

Although the Assad regime undoubtedly responded to the firebombing of the Baath Party headquarters in Daraa in mid-March 2011 with excessive force, an armed struggle against the regime began almost immediately.

In late March or early April, a well-planned ambush of Syrian troops killed at least two dozen soldiers near the same city. Other killings of troops took place in April in other cities, including Daraa, where 19 soldiers were gunned down.

During the second half of 2011 and through 2012, thousands of foreign jihadists streamed into Syria. As early as November 2011, al-Qaida was playing a central role in the war, carrying out spectacular suicide bombings in Damascus and Aleppo.

Obama should have reacted to the first indications of that development and insisted that Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar keep external arms and military personnel and funding out of Syria in order to allow a process of peaceful change to take place. Instead, however, the administration became an integral part of a proxy war for regime change.

Seymour Hersh reported last year that an unpublished addendum to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on Benghazi revealed a covert CIA operation to arm Syrian rebels, in cooperation with Sunni allies’ intelligence services.


In early 2012, Hersh reported, following an agreement with Turkey, then-CIA Director David Petraeus approved an elaborate covert operation in which Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar would fund the shipment of weapons to Syrian rebels from stocks captured from the Gadhafi government.

The scheme employed front companies set up in Libya to manage the shipments of arms in order to separate the U.S. government from the operation. An October 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report released by the Department of Defense to Judicial Watch confirmed the shipments of Libyan weapons from the port of Benghazi to two Syrian ports near Turkey beginning in October 2011 and continuing through August 2012.

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A larger covert program involved a joint military operations center in Istanbul

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, where CIA officers worked with Turkish, Saudi and Qatari intelligence agencies that were also providing arms to their favorite Syrian rebels groups, according to sources who talked with The Washington Post’s David Ignatius.

By November 2012, al-Qaida’s Syrian franchise, al-Nusra Front, had 6,000 to 10,000 troops—mostly foreign fighters—under its command and was regarded as the most disciplined and effective fighting force in the field.

The CIA’s Gulf allies armed brigades that had allied themselves with al-Nusra—or were ready to do so. A Qatari intelligence officer is said to have declared, “I will send weapons to al-Qaeda if it will help” topple Assad.

The CIA officials overseeing the covert operation knew very well what their Sunni allies were doing. After the U.S. shipments from Benghazi stopped in September 2012 because of the attack on the U.S. diplomatic post there, a CIA analysis reminded President Obama that the covert operation in Afghanistan had ended up creating a Frankenstein monster.

Even the now-famous account in Hillary Clinton’s 2014 memoirs about Obama rejecting a proposal in late 2012 from CIA Director Petraeus for arming and training Syrian rebels does not hide the fact that everyone was well aware of the danger that arms sent to “moderates” would end up in the hands of terrorists.

Despite this, after rejecting Petraeus’ plan in 2012, Obama approved the covert training of “moderate” Syrian rebels in April 2013. As the Pentagon has been forced to acknowledge in recent weeks, that program has been a complete fiasco, as the units either joined al-Nusra or were attacked by al-Nusra.

Meanwhile, as Vice President Joe Biden pointed out in October 2014, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates were pouring “hundreds of millions of dollars and tens, thousands of tons of weapons” into Syria that were ending up in the hands of the jihadists.

Unfortunately, Biden’s complaint came two and a half years too late. By October 2014, more than 15,000 foreign fighters, including 2,000 Westerners, were estimated to have gone to Syria. Islamic State and al-Nusra Front emerged as the two major contenders for power in Syria once Assad is overthrown, and the Saudis and Qataris were now ready to place their bets on al-Nusra.

In early 2015, after King Salman inherited the Saudi throne, the three Sunni states began focusing their support on al-Nusra and its military allies, encouraging them to form a new military command, the “Army of Conquest.” The al-Nusra-led front then captured Idlib province in March.

Obama, focusing on the Iran nuclear agreement, has given no indication that he is troubled by his allies’ approach. If the Bush administration destabilized Iraq in order to increase U.S. military presence and power in the Middle East, the Obama administration has countenanced a proxy war that has destabilized and Syria because of his primary concern with consolidating the U.S. alliances with the Saudis and the other Sunni regimes.

Although it has been almost a rigid rule that pundits must ascribe U.S. fealty to its Saudi alliance to oil interests, oil is far from the top of the list of U.S interests today. More important to our national security state is the interest of the Pentagon and the military services to protect the military bases they have in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and the UAE.

Their need to preserve those alliance relationships is intensified by the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) cornucopia of military contracts for U.S. arms manufacturers that assures enormous profits will continue to flow for the foreseeable future. One estimate of the total at stake for the Pentagon and its private allies in military relationships with the GCC is $100 billion to $150 billion over two decades.

Those are crucial bureaucratic and business stakes for the U.S. national security state, which is usually driven by the bottom lines associated with different courses of action. Especially given the administration’s lack of a coherent geopolitical perspective on the region, the security state’s interests offer a persuasive explanation for Obama’s effectively farming out the most important element of its Syria policy to regional allies, with disastrous results.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Pundits and politicians are already looking for a convenient explanation for the twin Middle East disasters of the rise of Islamic State and the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria.

The genuine answer is politically unpalatable, because the primary cause of both calamities is U.S. war and covert operations in the Middle East, followed by the abdication of U.S. power and responsibility for Syria policy to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni allies.

The emergence of a new state always involves a complex of factors. But over the past three decades, U.S. covert operations and war have entered repeatedly and powerfully into the chain of causality leading to Islamic State’s present position.

The causal chain begins with the role of the U.S. in creating a mujahedeen force to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a key facilitator in training that force in Afghanistan. Without that reckless U.S. policy, the blowback of the later creation of al-Qaida would very likely not have occurred.

But it was the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq that made al-Qaida a significant political-military force for the first time. The war drew Islamists to Iraq from all over the Middle East, and their war of terrorism against Iraqi Shiites was a precursor to the sectarian wars to follow.

The actual creation of Islamic State is also directly linked to the Iraq War. The former U.S. commander at Camp Bucca in Iraq has acknowledged that the detention of 24,000 prisoners, including hard-core al-Qaida cadres, Baathist officers and innocent civilians, created a “pressure cooker for extremism.”

It was during their confinement in that camp during the U.S. troop surge in Iraq 2007 and 2008 that nine senior al-Qaida military cadres planned the details of how they would create Islamic State.

The Obama administration completed the causal chain by giving the green light to a major war in Syria waged by well-armed and well-trained foreign jihadists.

Although the Assad regime undoubtedly responded to the firebombing of the Baath Party headquarters in Daraa in mid-March 2011 with excessive force, an armed struggle against the regime began almost immediately.

In late March or early April, a well-planned ambush of Syrian troops killed at least two dozen soldiers near the same city. Other killings of troops took place in April in other cities, including Daraa, where 19 soldiers were gunned down.

During the second half of 2011 and through 2012, thousands of foreign jihadists streamed into Syria. As early as November 2011, al-Qaida was playing a central role in the war, carrying out spectacular suicide bombings in Damascus and Aleppo.

Obama should have reacted to the first indications of that development and insisted that Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar keep external arms and military personnel and funding out of Syria in order to allow a process of peaceful change to take place. Instead, however, the administration became an integral part of a proxy war for regime change.

Seymour Hersh reported last year that an unpublished addendum to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on Benghazi revealed a covert CIA operation to arm Syrian rebels, in cooperation with Sunni allies’ intelligence services.


In early 2012, Hersh reported, following an agreement with Turkey, then-CIA Director David Petraeus approved an elaborate covert operation in which Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar would fund the shipment of weapons to Syrian rebels from stocks captured from the Gadhafi government.

The scheme employed front companies set up in Libya to manage the shipments of arms in order to separate the U.S. government from the operation. An October 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report released by the Department of Defense to Judicial Watch confirmed the shipments of Libyan weapons from the port of Benghazi to two Syrian ports near Turkey beginning in October 2011 and continuing through August 2012.

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The part that's not mentioned is that France, the USA, and other willing western participants went well beyond the UN-allowed establishment of a "no fly" zone to outright air support of "rebels" on the ground - "rebels" which were known to be jihadists, supplied with over 70 planeloads (clocked thru Turkish airports) and several boatloads of weapons by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Those jihadists which didn't shift to Syria scattered to Mali, Tunisia etc to form even more wahhabi-nut-case groups elsewhere.

This sounds very much like a precursor to Syria: fund, arm, and train known jihadists, all the while telling the public that these are "moderate" "freedom-loving" rebels.

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A larger covert program involved a joint military operations center in Istanbul

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WHich is also a major purchaser of illegal ISIS oil

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, where CIA officers worked with Turkish, Saudi and Qatari intelligence agencies that were also providing arms to their favorite Syrian rebels groups, according to sources who talked with The Washington Post’s David Ignatius.

By November 2012, al-Qaida’s Syrian franchise, al-Nusra Front, had 6,000 to 10,000 troops—mostly foreign fighters—under its command and was regarded as the most disciplined and effective fighting force in the field.

The CIA’s Gulf allies armed brigades that had allied themselves with al-Nusra—or were ready to do so. A Qatari intelligence officer is said to have declared, “I will send weapons to al-Qaeda if it will help” topple Assad.

The CIA officials overseeing the covert operation knew very well what their Sunni allies were doing. After the U.S. shipments from Benghazi stopped in September 2012 because of the attack on the U.S. diplomatic post there, a CIA analysis reminded President Obama that the covert operation in Afghanistan had ended up creating a Frankenstein monster.

Even the now-famous account in Hillary Clinton’s 2014 memoirs about Obama rejecting a proposal in late 2012 from CIA Director Petraeus for arming and training Syrian rebels does not hide the fact that everyone was well aware of the danger that arms sent to “moderates” would end up in the hands of terrorists.

Despite this, after rejecting Petraeus’ plan in 2012, Obama approved the covert training of “moderate” Syrian rebels in April 2013. As the Pentagon has been forced to acknowledge in recent weeks, that program has been a complete fiasco, as the units either joined al-Nusra or were attacked by al-Nusra.

Meanwhile, as Vice President Joe Biden pointed out in October 2014, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates were pouring “hundreds of millions of dollars and tens, thousands of tons of weapons” into Syria that were ending up in the hands of the jihadists.

Unfortunately, Biden’s complaint came two and a half years too late. By October 2014, more than 15,000 foreign fighters, including 2,000 Westerners, were estimated to have gone to Syria. Islamic State and al-Nusra Front emerged as the two major contenders for power in Syria once Assad is overthrown, and the Saudis and Qataris were now ready to place their bets on al-Nusra.

In early 2015, after King Salman inherited the Saudi throne, the three Sunni states began focusing their support on al-Nusra and its military allies, encouraging them to form a new military command, the “Army of Conquest.” The al-Nusra-led front then captured Idlib province in March.

Obama, focusing on the Iran nuclear agreement, has given no indication that he is troubled by his allies’ approach. If the Bush administration destabilized Iraq in order to increase U.S. military presence and power in the Middle East, the Obama administration has countenanced a proxy war that has destabilized and Syria because of his primary concern with consolidating the U.S. alliances with the Saudis and the other Sunni regimes.

Although it has been almost a rigid rule that pundits must ascribe U.S. fealty to its Saudi alliance to oil interests, oil is far from the top of the list of U.S interests today. More important to our national security state is the interest of the Pentagon and the military services to protect the military bases they have in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and the UAE.

Their need to preserve those alliance relationships is intensified by the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) cornucopia of military contracts for U.S. arms manufacturers that assures enormous profits will continue to flow for the foreseeable future. One estimate of the total at stake for the Pentagon and its private allies in military relationships with the GCC is $100 billion to $150 billion over two decades.

Those are crucial bureaucratic and business stakes for the U.S. national security state, which is usually driven by the bottom lines associated with different courses of action. Especially given the administration’s lack of a coherent geopolitical perspective on the region, the security state’s interests offer a persuasive explanation for Obama’s effectively farming out the most important element of its Syria policy to regional allies, with disastrous results.

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So instead of discussing the facts, you discuss the sources.

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Questioning dodgy sources is an excellent way to establish the facts.

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The problem is that you start out AHEAD OF TIME accepting some sources and rejecting others

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SO, you go to a website and you see that they post something that strikes you as being "pro-Hitler", and because they post some items that you don't agree with, you reject everything else they write.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Before there were children drowning in the sea, there were dead children in Afghanistan




In Iraq





(Soon to be dead)

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images8/iraq/dead_child_us_invasion_2003
.jpe

(beheaded by ISIS)

.... Libya


.... Palestine



Syria ....


gas attack by jihadists


Ukraine ....




Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?


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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Originally posted by G:
Child death porn from Siggy, again. Yeah, you're one twisted piece of go se. You think posting that here makes any difference?

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Will it save any children in Syria or Afghanistan? Anywhere? You really think it's proper to use those images (without consent) to further you rants to a board of 20 people? What a selfish sick f....

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Posting the images of dead children without consent like it was your right to publicly defile them again - that is what being a sick fuck is, that is being in a sociopathic place. How would you feel if someone posted images of you dead daughter just to make some worthless point on a scifi forum to 20 people who have no influence on the situation? You went way too far. You owe those families a huge apology, which of course wouldn't be worth anything. Talk about an UGLY American. If you have an ounce of class or any sense of perspective and responsibility you'll remove those images.

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But keep posting, you sick fuck. Keep digging that hole. Here, have a shovel, you psychopathic moron.
- SIGNY

You post this gore and call me psychotic? Do you even know how these kids died? Do you really know who killed them or how they were killed? You were there when it happened?

I would appreciate answer to any of those questions - if you don't I'll assume you have no clue and you're the lying sack of shit most of us know you to be.

A few more - since you're so much better than the rest of us: So what's your plan? How are you saving these kids? Posting here? Making a bomb in your basement? For whom? I'm waiting to be impressed by your great big beautiful plan to save the world! Help us Signym! Only you can save us!

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If you had been paying attention to anyone but yourself and not stooped to your worn out negative presumptions, you would have seen that I'm always been on the side of peace and negotiations first

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You post this gore and call me psychotic?

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Do you even know how these kids died?

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Do you really know who killed them or how they were killed?

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Were you there when it happened?

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Talk about a stupid question.- KIKI

You wear dumb like your favorite old sweater.-STRING

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Do you even know how these kids died?--GSTRING

It's pretty self-evident from the pictures. That WAS a stupid question!

So then it should be easy for you - how?

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So, that dog-chasing-tail video ... my god, you didn't record it yourself, did you? Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said about the middle -east: Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said, quoted, or reproduced about Kiev, the Donbas, or Russia: Shit canned! = SIGNY

So by your own reasoning we can shit can all of your posts - check.

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So, that dog-chasing-tail video ... my god, you didn't record it yourself, did you? Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said about the middle -east: Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said, quoted, or reproduced about Kiev, the Donbas, or Russia: Shit canned! = SIGNY

Wow - you just equated the importance of the source of a funny dog video with that of photos of mutilated dead children.

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You are one sick fuck, no sense of scale or context or subject. Using the deaths of strangers to score points on a nearly empty forum - shame is too weak a word.

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The source of such images are much more important

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and as such it's much more important to know where they come from other than "some website." You yourself have asked about photo sourcing in the past - so unless you're hypocrite

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In this case, to distract from the significance of the historical fact that the USA killed 75,000 - 500,000 children in Iraq ALONE, and that was in the latest invasion.... SIGNY

So, didn't read my post. The one right on this page. Why do you ask questions and then not read the answers? Does that seem smart to you?- GSTRING

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Our bombing was horrific, and probably ultimately unnecessary. Too many innocent civilians died and that's a huge regret and sadness for me even though I was personally against that tactic

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And more importantly, by YOUR OWN response, you personally have no business posting here about ... well, anything, since you have not been there personally to witness and record it. You should have been more careful what you demanded, GSTRING, somebody might hold you up to it. So I'm holding you up to your own demand: STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SAW THE EVENT. =SIGNY

Not going to happen until you stop lying and making shit up.- GSTRING

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BTW, as regards to your so-called position about the Mideast, when you said that victories of outsiders were ephemeral, I asked at least five or six times if you would clarify if that really applied to ANY nation, or just Russia. You refused to answer.

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"Brilliant - yes, a complete mess [ME], playing with a deck of ten thousand cards and all made up - no one speaks the truth and no one trusts anyone. Anyone at any time could change their allegiance for little to no reason, or even the wrong reason. A perfectly unsolvable puzzle."

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"Only an idiot thinks there are actual answers and solutions in the ME. The political landscape shifts as much as the sands of the desert (omg what great metaphor). You're pretty much screwed whatever you do if you are there.

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And now Russia thinks they will find answers - good luck to them. Probably more sad Russian mothers is what they'll get, mostly. They learned as little from Afghanistan as we did.

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"Most visitors who die in the desert die no more than a mile from a well traveled road... They believe they can walk a short distance off the road and then when they look back the way looks unfamiliar... because the sands continually change, and then they are lost for all eternity."

You say you're better than me and yet you can't understand something as direct and simple as that?

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"So, how do we evaluate your claim that you "always" try for negotiation and peace first? All you've managed to do so far is dredge up one equivocal statement that I refused to acknowledge at the time." - SIGNY

Fixed that for you. Anyone means anyone (you'll probably find a way to not understand that as well).-GSTING

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Not done with you:

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So what's your plan? How are you saving these kids? Posting here? Making a bomb in your basement? For whom? I'm waiting to be impressed by your great big beautiful plan to save the world!

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Remember - you're so much better than me, so you probably have a great plan already in place.

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Really simple questions for someone who professes they are so bright, and yet no answers? Hmmm... afraid? Or maybe you're just another attention whore on the Internet? (looking more and more likely)

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How about you show me where I was pro-USA killing people? Since you think I'm such a hawk, should be easy, right?

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I knew it! KPO is worse than Satan!

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*snort* I'm sorry, who is it that comes to this board crying all the time?!? That most definitely would be you! The bulk of your posts are text blocks of whining and crying about something.

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So yeah, a lot of nothing.

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Of course another fiction from Signym - I even posted vids of civilian deaths and lamented how there would be senseless deaths on both sides because it was obvious these people hated each other.

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This coming from the person who says she has to depend on Putin Media for her news.

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I don't think Putin put on his KGB mafia track suit and shot the guy himself - otherwise no.

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Merely following/ retweeting/ clicking on a button isn't effective. People actually have to DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL in real life... like go to a demonstration and risk getting shot at maybe, or go on strike, or at least stop buying a product.- SIGNY
The Signym lecture is here! How people should live their lives according to Signym! Do it my way - control control control. -GSRING

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And then lots more nonsense after those first lies not worth the time.

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SIG

I'd rather be a whore for peace than a whore for USA wars, which you appear to be. And if you object to this impression, why don't you come up with something that you posted AT THE TIME to show me otherwise?

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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And then lots more nonsense after those first lies not worth the time.

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So, YOUR QUOTES .... which were copied and linked ... are the they "nonsense" that you're referring to, or the "lies"?

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I see by this attempt at deflection that you admit you were lying. That's a big step toward recovery.

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Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Murdered & mutilated toddlers through out the Muslim world ?


Saw that comin'.

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Do you really think someone thinks bombing civilians is ok?

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Do you really think someone thinks bombing civilians is ok?

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Yes, you.

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Hey! You out dumbed Kiki! I would not have believed it possible!

So you really haven't been reading my posts?

Me: "The realities of war: civilians suffer the most and deserve it the least. "

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by kpo:
You see it again and again with these two. Disagree with them and they will decide that you are a neocon or 'Auraptor'. Disagree with them for long enough and they will say that you are a fascist, a Nazi, pro-ISIS, pro female genital mutilation - basically there's no limit to the kind of sick, evil individual they will fervently believe you to be.

It's completely childish and emotion-driven, and not worth anything more than an eye-roll.

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Yeah - they're so obvious and ultimately such a waste. Agenda before Truth. I've known a few people who have lived what I would call a dishonest life for so long, and are so invested in it, that their ego won't let them consider anything that is contrary. Part of it is this very thing: create exaggerated and fabricated responses and beliefs and pin them on anyone who might question them. Makes it easier for them to keep justifying their singular, bent outlook. Teabaggers come to mind. Sad.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:


I invite everyone to examine the thread to find 'G' offering a genuine protest, no matter how faint or indirect, to the atrocities. Even some SMALL expression of regret will do. Something other than an impersonal statement, to indicate he prefers it be avoided, or that he feels dismay that it happens ...

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You are one pathetic twist.

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You are one pathetic twist.- KIKI
Kiki there's a couple of instances there of you and Sig saying absurd and hysterical things, and G mocking you for it. But you don't realise, and take his words completely seriously - it's embarrassing.- KPO

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