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Originally posted by THGRRI:
A sensible discussion about Russia with either you or 1kiki is not possible. G, KPO and I have been trying to do just that. The facts show for more than a year you two have been Putin's biggest advocates. You keep lying and denying facts when it comes to Russia. On top of that, in all our discussions you have been posting from sources like zero hedge who's writers hide their identities. Your only requirement before you post it here has been, that they are negative stories about America and our allies.

No comrade, a sensible discussion about Russia with you is not possible.= THUGR

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No Trump is advocating for the changes Putin prays for.- THUGR


Okay, so let me bitch-slap you with your utter absurdity.

It's a little unclear WHO created our current clusterfuck- mostly Hillary or mostly Obama - but the Obama administration has done what Kissinger warned against:

By militarily threatening both China and Russia at the same time (moving nuclear missiles to the Russian border and "pivot to Asia") Obama has forced Russia and China into each other's arms.

Up until then, for decades the USA had been making nice with China while it attempted to destroy Russia, and China has been content to profit while Russia crumbled, and that worked rather well for us, if our goal is world domination.

Initially, the Russian-Chinese rapprochement began with the somewhat frantic reaching out of Russia to China in response to sanctions, a flurry of gas deals, the development of a non-SWIFT payment system, mutual de-dollarization and other rapid but potentially meaningless activities.

It's pretty hard to penetrate Chinese circumspection. Still, one message came through loud and clear: I don't know if you remember, but I posted a signal Chinese change, broadcast on CCTV (English-language Chinese TV) about three years ago, when they promised to make

"allies of friends, friends of neutrals, and to attack our mutual enemies".

I've been waiting to see that statement realized in military and foreign policy, and I see Xi Jinping now trying to make that statement come true:

China just recently offered a true military alliance with Russia and will be sending trainers and troops to Syria (1). Until now, and despite many joint military exercises, China and Russia have been content to operate in roughly parallel modes (China in the South China Sea and Djibouti and Afghanistan and Pakistan, Russia in Crimea and parts of the Mideast and India) so this is intended to go far beyond the random confluence of mutual economic interests and shared territories of concern.

Either this is an extremely (and possibly suicidal) strategy of the USA planners - force China and Russia into a corner and try to destroy them both at the same time - or a serious blunder on the part of the WH. Given that Putin has already threatened the USA with nuclear destruction, I suspect it's just our blowhard-ism creating problems for us again.


*** Trump is actually trying to reverse course: By making nice with Russia and consistently attacking China, it looks as if he would once again attempt to create a wedge between the two.

I'm not sure if that's a real plan or just a reflexive attempt at survival, but it works out in favor of our long-term interests. ***

You see? I'm actually fairly adept at seeing REAL threats to our interests ... not the "hyperventilating" that you keep doing about your imaginary fears.

(1) I don't see China providing much "training" to Syrian troops, or much assistance to Russia. But the Chinese army is relatively undisciplined and not battle-hardened, and I suspect (possibly wrongly) that Syria represents a training opportunity for the Chinese military.

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I'm perfectly capable of having a sensible talk about Russia, and Russia's THREAT POTENTIAL TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

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An interesting way to frame the discussion. Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia

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that exclude Russia's actions in Syria and Ukraine, its increasingly draconian laws, corrupt oligarchy, tanking economy, and the growing list of Putin enemies (journalists, dissidents, defectors, rival politicians) getting bumped off?

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Originally posted by kpo:

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I'm perfectly capable of having a sensible talk about Russia, and Russia's THREAT POTENTIAL TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

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An interesting way to frame the discussion. Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia that exclude Russia's actions in Syria and Ukraine, its increasingly draconian laws, corrupt oligarchy, tanking economy, and the growing list of Putin enemies (journalists, dissidents, defectors, rival politicians) getting bumped off?



Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

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I'm perfectly capable of having a sensible talk about Russia, and Russia's THREAT POTENTIAL TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.- SIGNY

An interesting way to frame the discussion. Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia that exclude Russia's actions in Syria and Ukraine, its increasingly draconian laws, corrupt oligarchy, tanking economy, and the growing list of Putin enemies (journalists, dissidents, defectors, rival politicians) getting bumped off?- KPO

And she goes right back to slamming Hilary [sic]

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and not discussing the things Trump suggests that Putin loves-THUGR

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Okay, so let me bitch-slap you with your utter absurdity.

It's a little unclear WHO created our current clusterfuck- mostly Hillary or mostly Obama - but the Obama administration has done what Kissinger warned against:

By militarily threatening both China and Russia at the same time (moving nuclear missiles to the Russian border and "pivot to Asia") Obama has forced Russia and China into each other's arms.

Up until then, for decades the USA had been making nice with China while it attempted to destroy Russia, and China has been content to profit while Russia crumbled, and that worked rather well for us, if our goal is world domination.

Initially, the Russian-Chinese rapprochement began with the somewhat frantic reaching out of Russia to China in response to sanctions, a flurry of gas deals, the development of a non-SWIFT payment system, mutual de-dollarization and other rapid but potentially meaningless activities.

It's pretty hard to penetrate Chinese circumspection. Still, one message came through loud and clear: I don't know if you remember, but I posted a signal Chinese change, broadcast on CCTV (English-language Chinese TV) about three years ago, when they promised to make

"allies of friends, friends of neutrals, and to attack our mutual enemies".

I've been waiting to see that statement realized in military and foreign policy, and I see Xi Jinping now trying to make that statement come true:

China just recently offered a true military alliance with Russia and will be sending trainers and troops to Syria (1). Until now, and despite many joint military exercises, China and Russia have been content to operate in roughly parallel modes (China in the South China Sea and Djibouti and Afghanistan and Pakistan, Russia in Crimea and parts of the Mideast and India) so this is intended to go far beyond the random confluence of mutual economic interests and shared territories of concern.

Either this is an extremely (and possibly suicidal) strategy of the USA planners - force China and Russia into a corner and try to destroy them both at the same time - or a serious blunder on the part of the WH. Given that Putin has already threatened the USA with nuclear destruction, I suspect it's just our blowhard-ism creating problems for us again.


*** Trump is actually trying to reverse course: By making nice with Russia and consistently attacking China, it looks as if he would once again attempt to create a wedge between the two.

I'm not sure if that's a real plan or just a reflexive attempt at survival, but it works out in favor of our long-term interests. ***

You see? I'm actually fairly adept at seeing REAL threats to our interests ... not the "hyperventilating" that you keep doing about your imaginary fears.

(1) I don't see China providing much "training" to Syrian troops, or much assistance to Russia. But the Chinese army is relatively undisciplined and not battle-hardened, and I suspect (possibly wrongly) that Syria represents a training opportunity for the Chinese military.

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An interesting way to frame the discussion. Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia= KPO

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that exclude Russia's actions in Syria and Ukraine, its increasingly draconian laws, corrupt oligarchy, tanking economy, and the growing list of Putin enemies (journalists, dissidents, defectors, rival politicians) getting bumped off?= KPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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An interesting way to frame the discussion. Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia= KPO

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are you advocating a senseless discussion?

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that exclude Russia's actions in Syria and Ukraine, its increasingly draconian laws, corrupt oligarchy, tanking economy, and the growing list of Putin enemies (journalists, dissidents, defectors, rival politicians) getting bumped off?= KPO

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Why are you not breathlessly listing the war crimes and human rights betrayals of ... say... Saudi Arabia, which has done a terrible disservice to the entire Mideast, North Africa, and south Asia by exporting Wahhabism for the past 40 years?

I think you should at least first very clearly explain to me and to everyone what bothers you so much about what Russia does, because as far as I can tell, we could ignore Russia's misdeeds as easily as we ignore the Gulf States'. And if you feel that we CAN'T ignore what Russia does, then tell me why. I really want to know.

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Originally posted by G:
KPO: Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia.

SIGGY: are you advocating a senseless discussion?

Hahahahahahahahaha! Priceless. "Today's Topic: How NOT to have a serious discussion."

Allow me: I TOLD YOU SO!!!

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Originally posted by G:
KPO: Why are you so keen to have a 'sensible' talk about Russia.

SIGGY: are you advocating a senseless discussion?

Hahahahahahahahaha! Priceless. "Today's Topic: How NOT to have a serious discussion."

Allow me: I TOLD YOU SO!!!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So: How does Russia threaten the interests of the USA?

It's a simple question, altho not easy to answer. And just in case it got lost in the shuffle

How does Russia threaten the interests of the USA?

Please be specific.

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1kiki

Russia's ALLEGED widespread cheating - which you STILL have failed to provide evidence for. EVIDENCE is lab reports, not quotes of claims that someone overheard that someone else claimed to believe.

BTW - look back. It's been my contention all along that the thrust has been to punish Russian Olympian athletes for no other reason than, because, yanno ... ... ... Russia. I've been advocating all along that any athlete caught with an 'adverse finding' could, AND SHOULD be banned, for cause. My objection has always been banning athletes for political reasons.

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You got it G. I asked how SIG felt about Putin allegedly killing those who disagree with him and who would be a worse leader, Putin or Hilary, when did she stop beating her husband, and all she does is change the subject stick with the topic of the thread and ask the same question again that I refuse to answer

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
Soros troll!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR: You're delusional, so- whatever.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Okay, one more try.

I'm trying to explain to myself why you collectively spend so much time fixated on Russia. In the past, I've been accused of being entranced with Putin, but the people who have an unwavering stare at all things Russian is .... you all.

Why are you so fixated on Russia? If you're afraid of something, what is it? If you're NOT afraid of anything, but you have other reasons to focus on Russia, just say that Russia isn't threatening any vital interests and then we can move on.

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Twenty five posts now and nothing but deflection by you.

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Including continually changing the title of the thread.

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Here you go SIG. I gleefully await your none support of Russia response.
Including continually changing the title of the thread.- THUGR
I have not changed it once. Either you're paranoid, or you're drinking heavily again, or you're lying.- SIGNY
Yes you have. The title started out as “a sensible discussion about Russia."- THUGR

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I have repeatedly asked for YOUR OPINION about Russia- SIGNY
And when we start you cry foul and change the title of the thread. -THUGR

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specifically is it a threat to us (for G and KPO: "to the United States")? - SIGNY
Russia is a threat to the world so then yes it is a threat to us. Especially when it has dictators like Putin controlling it.- THUGR

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If so, along what lines? Does Russia threaten our borders? Our internal security? Something else? -SIGNY
Let’s see, does Russia threaten our border? No

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but what Russia is doing in Syria is threatening the borders of Europe (NATO). Destabilizing NATO definitely effects us. How are they doing this? They are bombing hospitals and civilians indiscriminately and forcing millions of Syrians to migrate there. They are also starving Syrian’s in an attempt to either force them out or into capitulation . Women and children SIG. That’s why Russia bombed the UN convoy.

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The convoy would have taken the denial of food and medicine off the table as Russian weapons of war.

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These migrants are destabilizing the surrounding area's as well. Which is a direct threat to us.- THUGR

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And yes SIG the Russians do represent a threat to our internal security.
They continually get caught hacking into our corporations and defense industries.- THUGR

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They are also a threat to our allies which means they threaten to involve us in a war that way. And they threaten and invade their neighbors which is another way to cause a world war. I'd say that means they are a threat to us.

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If Russia does NOT threaten us ("the USA") why else are you focusing on Russia? Is it a human rights concern?- SIGNY
Of course Russia’s record on human rights abuses is a concern.

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Just look at the way they are behaving in Syria and the Ukraine as well as within Russia itself.

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Because of Putin Stalinism is rearing it's ugly head again. The death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives

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Yanno, for people who endlessly ... and I mean endlessly... criticize Russia and impugn my motivations, you all seem remarkably unable or unwilling to explain YOUR motivations. Why is that? Do you have something to hide? Take that stiff drink, THUGR, and man up! 'Splain yourself on this board! -SIGNY

My motivations are to expose you and 1kiki as Russian trolls

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so others may understand you as you continually attack democracy and it's institutions by portraying them in a negative way.

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And because Russia is run by a dictator and is so corrupt, it is important to expose Russia as a threat to the world, and any attempt to establish a common rule of law globally.

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Either you are a Russian troll or your grasp of world events is on a par with that of a 3rd or 4th grader.

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Well SIG, I guess you are expecting me to argue my points further against the bullshit you just posted

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Well SIG, I guess you are expecting me to argue my points further against the bullshit you just posted

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No, if you noticed I asked you questions. I didn't disagree much, but I DID ask you, repeatedly, to explain the connections that you've somehow made between "the security of the world" and "the interests of the United States", and to also describe, specifically, how Russia threatens "us".

So far, you've posted a definitive answer that Russia doesn't threaten our borders BUT... you then go on to point to vague threats against other entities (NATO, the EU, "the world").

If it will help clarify your thinking, I think you should be more aware every time anyone uses collectivist terms like "the world", "us", "America", "we", "the EU", or even "NATO" without recognizing that these terms imply a commonality of interests that may not, in fact, exist.


Anyway, if you could answer the questions and clarify what you mean, that would be great.

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Again SIG you post subjective bullshit. Who do you think you're fooling with this spin. Anyway....I will repost a portion of my last post that explains just what you do. I mean shit, I just got done saying it and there you go again doing it in your very next post. Besides, if you where an American you would already know the answers to the questions you ask.



"I keep telling you that I post to expose you as someone who trolls on behalf of Russia. It is obvious you lie, dismiss facts, or question what is said as though it is not a complete statement deserving of an answer from you. In these instances you just pose another question."

I give your quoted post above as exhibit A COMRADE.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Russia is a threat to the world so then yes it is a threat to us. Especially when it has dictators like Putin controlling it.- THUGR

So, are we "the world"? Are you somehow conflating "the interests of the world" with "the interests of the United States"? In what way are the interests of the United States and the interests of "the world the same? And how, specifically, does Russia threaten them? -SIGNY

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Let’s see, does Russia threaten our border? No BUT what Russia is doing in Syria is threatening the borders of Europe (NATO). Destabilizing NATO definitely effects us. How are they doing this? They are bombing hospitals and civilians indiscriminately and forcing millions of Syrians to migrate there. They are also starving Syrian’s [sic] in an attempt to either force them out or into capitulation . Women and children SIG. That’s why Russia bombed the UN convoy. [That is still to be demonstrated -SIGNY]- THUGR

.... are you saying there were NO refugees leaving Syria before Russia become involved (which, as you may recall, began in Sept 2015)? That the entire refugee crisis can be laid at the feet of Russia, and that all of the migrants are Syrian? There are no migrants from Iraq, Afghanistan, Eritrea, Libya, Sudan etc? in Europe? And all of this started just last year, you say? -SIGNY

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These migrants are destabilizing the surrounding area's as well. Which is a direct threat to us.- THUGR

HOW is it a "direct threat" to us?? Again, have you conflated the EU's interests with ours? I see that there is dissension within the EU against Merkel's refugee policy. So what? I fail to connect the dots between dissension against Merkel... which will be handled in the ordinary democratic way by voting her party out of office ... and "threat to the USA". Please explain.-SIGNY

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Again SIG you post subjective bullshit...
In these instances you just pose another question.-THUGR

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SIG its out of the bag. You troll for Russia. Either way your post shows your ignorance. lol, don't you know anything? Buy a book comrade, read a real newspaper. Below is an example of why you don't know shit about what's going on. -THUGR

The piece about the convoy comes from a person who calls himself The Saker (not "seeker". A saker is a large falcon.) I've found him to be well-informed about military tactics and strategies, not so much about economics. Therefore, I tend not to bring him to the board unless he;s talking about weapons and military strategy and tactics. He has podcast something of his background, which is basically unverifiable, and is currently a citizen of the USA and living in FLA. -SIGNY

The Saker" is a pseudonym SIG for SOMEONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE a top level American military analyst

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who lives in Florida and who DOES NOT WANT TO TELL US HIS NAME.

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He writes a blog SIG a blog.

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He covers the Ukraine crisis. His articles are some of the most popular on Russia Insider.

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The Russian insider is a Russia news website launched in September 2014, based in Moscow, Russia. Moscow Russia SIG. The Insider reports on political and social affairs. The independent media source aims to promote a better understanding of Russia. Its mission is media criticism and reform, underlining the issues of Western media which are seen by the founders as extremely biased, especially on Russia, The website was criticized for its pro-Russian stance. It's pro Russian stance SIG.

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Criticized for it pro-Russian stance comrade troll SIG. In other words your sources are bullshit and propaganda

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OK SIG get it. You need to ask so many questions because all you do is cut and paste shit from unreliable sources.

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Again you attack America’s interests and assertions and promote Russia’s

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AS simple as they are, THUDGR will NEVER be able to answer them. Because he's a fucking crazy stupid lying nutjob asshole.

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But MY post shows JUST how GOD AWFUL his lies are!
Head-bangingly, mind-numbingly, out-there, plain-as-day awful!

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First of all the SAKER is your source. Secondly here is the link proving me right once again and you, well, an ass as always. I'll give you some good advice. If all you do is lie and all your sources lie. Well, you're bound to get caught lying.
"The Saker" is a pseudonym for a top level American military analyst who lives in Florida, the author of the leading blog covering the Ukraine crisis, His articles are some of the most popular on Russia Insider.
http://russia-insider.com/en/users/saker

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My life has been one of ups and downs. Early on, after a pretty nasty childhood, it went up, rather rapidly. Then came the “fall from (pseudo-) grace” and I lost my career. It is still too early to go into all the details, but let’s just say that I used to be associated with a “three letter outfit” whose existence was not well-known by the general public and which has since been disbanded. In my field, I got to the proverbial ‘top’ pretty early on, but soon the war in Bosnia began to open my eyes to many things I had never suspected before. Then I found out about two things which got me blacklisted in my own, putatively democratic, country: I found out that a group of people had uselessly been murdered as a result of the criminal incompetence of their superiors and I found out that one guy had taken a long jail sentence while all this superiors had managed to walk away from a crime they all had committed. And even though I never went public, or even told my closest friends about it (to protect them), I was blacklisted and prevented from ever working again.

In those dark days my wonderful wife was always trying to tell me that it was not my fault, that I had never done anything wrong, that I was paying the price for being a person of integrity and that I had proven many times over how good I was in my field. I always used to bitterly reply to her that I was like a “submarine in a desert”: maybe very good at “something somewhere”, but useless in my current environment (I always used to visualize a Akula-class SSN stranded smack in the middle of the Sahara desert – what a sight that would be! I wish somebody would use a Photoshop-like software to create that pic). What I have found out since, is that our planet is covered with deserts and that there are many, many submarines in them, all yearning for the vastness of an ocean.

Modest beginnings at first

I came to the USA in 2002 ...

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SAKER

"Finally, and just for the record, a few points: I never did any intelligence gathering for anybody, though I was approached by the Americans, the Russians and the Swiss do to exactly that, but I turned them all down (just not my cup of tea at all). While my maternal family are all from the Russian nobility, my Dutch DNA is 100% proletarian, and I am quite happy with that mix."

I get a regular trickle of donations from the blog, but nothing major, and only 2 private donors (thanks guys!!) provide most of it anyway.

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The two largest combatant groups were the Red Army, fighting for the Bolshevik form of socialism, and the loosely allied forces known as the White Army, which included diverse interests favoring monarchism, capitalism and alternative forms of socialism, each with democratic and antidemocratic variants... The Red Army defeated the White Armed Forces of South Russia in Ukraine and the army led by Admiral Aleksandr Kolchak in Siberia in 1919. The remains of the White forces commanded by Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel were beaten in Crimea and evacuated in late 1920. Lesser battles of the war continued on the periphery for two more years, and minor skirmishes with the remnants of the White forces in the Far East continued well into 1923

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, let's see .... your big beef with the Saker isn't because what he says is inaccurate, and not because he claimed he was CIA (which he didn't, that was a mistake on your part) but because his mother's side of the family LEFT RUSSIA BECAUSE THEY WERE NOBILITY AND MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE WELL UNDER SOCIALISM? And you ASSUME that Putin pays for his blog, even though he is now a citizen of the USA and could easily be found out and exposed by the FBI?

THUGR, you're loonier than I thought.

As a matter of fact, in one of his podcasts, he did describe his background a bit, and (if I remember correctly) he said that his mother's family were "White Russians" and part of the Russian nobility. White Russians fought against the Bolsheviks/ Red Army during the Russian Civil War.

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He claims he USED TO BE a military analyst, but for a European nation. You just make shit up whole cloth, don't you?"-



Oh wait, now I remember. What a tangled web we weave when at first we do deceive. Aye SIG?







____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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So, let's see .... your big beef with the Saker isn't because what he says is inaccurate, and not because he claimed he was CIA (which he didn't, that was a mistake on your part) but because his mother's side of the family LEFT RUSSIA BECAUSE THEY WERE NOBILITY AND MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE WELL UNDER SOCIALISM? And you ASSUME that Putin pays for his blog, even though he is now a citizen of the USA and could easily be found out and exposed by the FBI?
THUGR, you're loonier than I thought.
As a matter of fact, in one of his podcasts, he did describe his background a bit, and (if I remember correctly) he said that his mother's family were "White Russians" and part of the Russian nobility. White Russians fought against the Bolsheviks/ Red Army during the Russian Civil War. He claims he USED TO BE a military analyst, but for a European nation. You just make shit up whole cloth, don't you?"- SIGNY

Oh wait, now I remember. What a tangled web we weave when at first we do deceive. Aye SIG?- THUGR

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Right now, you've pointed in so many directions and accused me of so many things, I don't even know WHAT you're saying anymore. Do you suppose you could wrap up your allegations in one or two sentences that you are willing to stick with ETA:and support with evidence: instead of allowing your delusions to roam? - SIGNY

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