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Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.

I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
hmmm... which would take us back to hordes of random people with who knows what affiliations touching and retouching the ballots. If not introducing hordes of errors, then same problems with possibilities of fraud.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.

I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.

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Originally posted by Radhil:
Ghoul, I'm very much with Geezer here. Ron Glass is becoming an angry ranting young man in my head. Please stop it.

Voting - by itself - is a very simple thing. Voting across thousands of districts and millions of citizens when both sides are lining up lawyers to challenge everything is not. There will always be problems in any "simple" system scaled to a size that friggin' large with all the checks and balances necessary to get it close to reasonable.

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I've watched the election closely. If fraud was as rampant as you say, certain people would be ringing alarm bells very loudly.

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All I saw was complaints of certain tactics that probably did amount to attempts to slant the election. Some were turned around, some were not. In the end though, none of it amounted to enough to tip the scales - as it could have in the 2000 election.

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Diebold Machines certainly are a problem (I'm a techie, I know), but weren't widespread enough - nor could they have slanted and edited every last vote. I've heard the exit poll story - I don't buy it without more proof.

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Stop ranting. Start digging. Come back with more than rhetoric you got off a blog.

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To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.

The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.

It was only after the polls had closed in most states and the vote count was well underway in the East that it became clear that Bush was in a stronger position in several key battlegrounds, including Ohio, than early exit polls suggested.

Some problems are inevitable. A total of 12,047 randomly selected voters were interviewed Tuesday as they left their polling places, and those results were fed into computers. The accumulated results were reported several times over the course of Election Day.

Results based on the first few rounds of interviewing are usually only approximations of the final vote. Printouts warn that estimates of each candidate's support are unreliable and not for on-air use. Those estimates are untrustworthy because people who vote earlier in the day tend to be different from those who vote in the middle of the day or the evening. For instance, the early national sample Tuesday that was 59 percent female probably reflected that more women vote in the day than the evening.

That is why the early leaks anger Lenski. "The basic issue here is the leaking of this information without any sophisticated understanding or analysis, in a way that makes it look inaccurate," he said.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Funny, we in Canada never have a problem. Ever. What's Americas problem? hmmmm. Let's imagine...

Look - this is easy. Saying voting is too complex is, frankly, silly. The whole world manages to have votes without any corruption at all every day.

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Who? I've already pointed out that three PRIVATE companies are in charge. That's wrong and frankly - fascistic. It's like giving all your money to a loan shark and hopeing he will be fair with you.

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There are lots of reports and stories. Just look around the Net. And it's early yet!

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Techie are ya? Well, you might want to come around to the fact that those machines never worked. Were found not to work by a Senate Commitee. Were never believed to be proper by anyone.

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This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.

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Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Sigh! Here is the supposedly problem with exit poll disparity as clearly explained.

there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with media people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.

read the article excerpts that points it out here:

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SNIP!

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The article is here, but you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html

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Originally posted by Radhil:
... SNIP! ...

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This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.

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If it's your opinion, it's awfully familiar.

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Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!

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*rolls eyes* You don't know me son. You don't know how much I care. You don't know who I've argued, shouted at, screamed at, for a different result to this election. You seem to be misrepresenting what *I* say quite well.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.

Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.

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And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.

It isn't.

Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.

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And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.

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Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.

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Originally posted by Radhil:

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.

Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.

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Probably not. I *did* say you'd stolen your opinion from somewhere, but only because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do these days - to read something, and then parade it about as true. If the Internet says it, it must be true, after all.

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I don't have some example for you - I've simply seen quite a lot of conspiracy theories. And only theories. Yours is certainly a bit more colorful, better written, but still that. A rant with not much more than it's loudness to carry it. A few facts and name drops to spice it up. Not meaning to be offensive there, but that's what I see.

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And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.

It isn't.

Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.

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You seem to have a healthy fear of three corporate companies controlling... "something" about our elections... and yet there's only one entity that controls yours. Interesting.

All right. I bite. How exactly does this Elections Canada control things? What's the trick to eliminating biases? Who heads it up?

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And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.

Kerry declared it over. The media then when nuts reporting it.

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They were reporting "Bush's confidence" all morning (and that sure grated my teeth) but that wasn't a finish line. Ohio wasn't even officially called by the news outlets until at least an hour later, when they got better and confirmable info on the provisional ballot question. Call me crazy, but I tend to think Kerry'd be the one to trust on whether or not he lost.

I don't believe the official count has been submitted yet, but there's only so much math you can do.

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Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.

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Is Radhil ever less than friggin' stubborn when there's not a good arguement? Ask around. ;)

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Originally posted by ScorpiusTOTA:
When you can come up with some hard evidence of ANYTHING Ghoul, get back to us. Sheesh.

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I can tell you one true story though, I was harrassed at a poll in Cedar Rapids, Iowa by Moveon.org for having a Bush/Cheney sticker on my car. AT THE DAMN POLL. That is against the law, by the way.

Cops called, moveon movedout.

-Scorp

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Elections Canada - http://www.elections.ca/home.asp?textonly=false

They are autonomous.

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Oh? Seems to me Kerry got his information from the media. I could be wrong.

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Originally posted by JenDandy:
A question for Ghoulman, not to offend, just out of curiousity (plus you can't get angry at someone who knows bugger all about politics, am I right?):
Sig Rebel

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's plain the election is a fraud.

Your vote didn't count.

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To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.

The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.

It was only after the polls had closed in most states and the vote count was well underway in the East that it became clear that Bush was in a stronger position in several key battlegrounds, including Ohio, than early exit polls suggested.


The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html






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Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Originally posted by JenDandy:
A question for Ghoulman, not to offend, just out of curiousity (plus you can't get angry at someone who knows bugger all about politics, am I right?):

If you're in Canada why do you care so much about what's going on in the U.S.? No country is perfect, not even yours, surely so if you feel so strongly about politics -forgive me if you have before- why don't you start some threads on what's wrong with where you live?

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
read the article excerpts that points it out here:

The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html

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Originally posted by Radhil:
Kerry's campaign HQ in Ohio would have had a bunch of people side-by-side with local election boards to try and get their own estimates on all votes counted. Their very own system of exit polls, as it were. Not to mention pestering the state office - on phone and likely even in person and on site for real accuracy - for full information on the provisional ballot situation. Not to mention the army of lawyers prepared to unleash all hell if there was a reason to.

Kerry's main HQ would've sucked every factual detail dry from that Ohio office (and they in turn every other person down the food chain) before he made that concession call.

No serious US politician relies on media reports. They find out up front.

This of course highlights it's own problems - namely the US's massive bullshit production and all the crap necessary to avoid it - that you may point out as you like.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
read the article excerpts that points it out here:

The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html

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Hey, I could go and get some article too.
"Is there a connection between VNS closing its doors, the increase use of computerized voting machines, and the growing disparity between pre-election polling predictions and election results - a disparity that appears to heavily favor Republican candidates? Are we witnessing election fraud on a massive scale and is VNS involved?

http://www.rense.com/general33/suspicionsurroundsVNS.htm

It's not like there aren't other opinions out there.

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the fraud is not made up... it was even on t.v where most people get their news where this woman kept selecting Kerry and it would choose Bush

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The parliamentarian noted that primarily he was shocked by the fact that U.S. citizens do not produce any ID as they come to polling stations. “It is enough to say ’I am Mr. Smith,’ and he is allowed to vote; the same person can exit one polling station and go to another and vote again using the same procedure,” the Russian MP said.

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“Often people simply do not understand how to vote and nobody really tries to explain it to them,” the observer said.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
The parliamentarian noted that primarily he was shocked by the fact that U.S. citizens do not produce any ID as they come to polling stations. “It is enough to say ’I am Mr. Smith,’ and he is allowed to vote; the same person can exit one polling station and go to another and vote again using the same procedure,” the Russian MP said.

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The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Wasn't there bitching about people who were "forced" to produce ID?

Now there is bitching about people who were free not to show them?

Which way do you want it?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
SNIP!!!
Also note the wikipedia info on the Liberal Democratic Party.

The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.


Guess even Dubya isn't right-wing enough for them.

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Originally posted by Bojesphob:
Ghouly, you take our media WAY too seriously. Who cares about articles about what people pretend to know?? There are no articles about people bitching about having to show ID, but there are people who WERE bitching about having to show ID! Just because it wasn't in an article doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live right in the thick of it, and it happened. You only see what the media WANTS you to see, not necessarily what happens. I stood in line for 45 minutes to vote, because the polling people were ensuring that the people who were coming through the line were who they said that they were! Why go to the media, you have a LOT of REAL people who actually EXPERIENCED this process and we are telling you it's not as bad as it's made out to be!

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
SNIP!!!
Also note the wikipedia info on the Liberal Democratic Party.

The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.


Guess even Dubya isn't right-wing enough for them.

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That Wikipedia is crap, I won't accept information from a website created by submissions. Where is the profesional? The Editor? There ain't none!

Having said that, the Russian Liberal Democratic Party is a nutty bunch. Geezer is quite right.

It's the only comment from an international observer of the US election I could find! Can't even find the Canadian observers comments anywhere. Guess the Right Wing Corporate propoganda in Canada is still working (*looks over shoulder*) .... yep, still there.

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