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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


People who are transgender, OTOH, require specialized surgical and hormonal services to help the become how they "feel". In a society where so many people lack critical medical and dental care, I find it almost criminal draw resources away from other people who need them more. "Transgender" treatment is a rich-person's option. So while I don't see anything "wrong" with being transgender, it's not something I would spend a great deal of money "fixing" until more important medical issues were addressed first.

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We make accommodations for pretty much everything else (as long as it doesn't hurt other people, for that is where your rights stop)

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so I have no problem with transgenders doing to themselves whatever they want to do.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not a question of rights, it's a question of money: Do we, as a society, believe that treating transgender identity is a reasonable expenditure of public or common healthcare money?

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History Study Shows: Right before ALL ancient societies COLLAPSED homosexuality SPRUNG UP high!

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Ever since North Carolina became the first U.S. state to require transgender people to use restrooms in public buildings and schools that match the sex on their birth certificate rather than their gender identity – the “transgender” political issue has dominated American media headlines.

Best-selling feminist author, social critic and self-described "transgender being" Camille Paglia said in an interview that the rise of transgenderism in the West is a symptom of decadence and cultural collapse.

"Nothing... better defines the decadence of the West to the jihadists than our toleration of open homosexuality and this transgender mania now," Paglia said during an October 22 interview on the Brazilian television program Roda Viva.

Paglia also said during the interview that "transgender propagandists" are overstating their case.

Camille Paglia, an American college professor and social critic, is one of a kind: a feminist who objects to almost every form of feminism known to womankind; a sexual radical who believes in complete freedom of sexual expression, yet a realist who insists that women have to take full responsibility for the sexual choices they make; and a lesbian who objects to the current censorship of any discussion about the causes of homosexuality.

Today’s college students

“They have no sense of the great patterns of world history, the rise and fall of civilisations like Babylon and Rome that became very sexually tolerant, and then fell. If you’ve had no exposure to that, you can honestly believe that ‘There is progress all around us and we are moving to an ideal state of culture, where we all hold hands and everyone is accepted for what they are … and the environment will be pure…’ – a magical utopian view that we are marching to perfection. And the sign of this progress is toleration – of the educated class – for homosexuality, or for changing gender, or whatever.

“To me it’s a sign of the opposite, it’s symptomatic of a civilisation just before it falls: ‘we’ are very tolerant, not passionate, but there are bands of vandals and destroyers circling around the edge of our civilisation who will bring it down.”

On homosexuality

“There is censorship of discussion about the causes of various gender issues – for at least 25 years, now, in the case of homosexuality itself. In the 1980s there was talk of finding a gay gene, but when that was not found, silence [became the rule]. To even raise the question of how homosexuality is caused is considered homophobic. But I think it is imperative for everyone to ask questions about matters of development of the personality and sexual orientation.

“I’m waiting for some brave young gays to protest against the censorship.”

On identity politics and transgenderism

“This hyper-self-consciousness about ‘Who am I? Where exactly am I on the gender spectrum?’ is mere navel-gazing, while in the Middle East ISIS is beheading people. It is a kind of madness of self-absorption.”

Noting that Hillary Clinton gave transgenders specific mention at the beginning and end of a rally speech last week, the interviewer asks why this issue gets so much attention in the news.

Paglia throws up her hands in exasperation at the daily coverage of “transgender bathrooms” in the US media. She suggests it is “symptomatic of people feeling that world events are out of their control.” Transgender activists can be very aggressive, she adds. As for the others:

“I really pity young people today in this environment because the pressures are enormous. It’s one thing to feel, ‘I’m not quite comfortable in the gender I was assigned at birth,’ but the pressures are to change, change, change, and to telegraph it to the world. People are pushed into making choices about surgical interventions and taking hormones, which is dangerous, and they will have all kinds of medical problems in the long run, I believe…

“I think there are authentic transgender people who had a genetic issue from the start, but they are a tiny, tiny minority of the population, and medical science is still developing to help these people.

“But now it’s become a fashion statement, or a mask [for other problems]. People are being induced to think that all their unhappiness -- in family life, in school, in relation to society – is to do with this gender issue. Well, maybe it isn’t. Maybe there are other issues a person needs to deal with.

“In the old days there were different kinds of guidance to help you focus and develop yourself psychologically, spiritually, culturally. Instead, now, all the unhappiness that people feel in these areas is consolidated in the gender issue. Maybe there is a gender issue for you, but it’s not the whole issue.”

Earlier Paglia noted that millennials seem to have "no sense of the great patterns of world history" and, thus, believe that "we are marching to perfection," that we are reaching a "transnational" "utopia," while our sexual tolerance is actually a sign that we, like Babylon and Rome, are about to fall.

"We are very tolerant, not passionate, but there are bands of vandals and destroyers circling around the edge of our civilization who will bring it down," she said, making clear in her comments about ISIS that she was at least in part referring to Radical Islamists.

As for the "causes of various gender issues," the lesbian feminist ripped the current "censorship" of honest discussion. "To even raise the question of how homosexuality is caused is considered homophobic," she said, adding, "I'm waiting for some brave young gays to protest against the censorship."

Paglia also said during the interview that “transgender propagandists” are overstating their case.

“I think that the transgender propagandists make wildly inflated claims about the multiplicity of gender,” she said.

“Sex reassignment surgery, even today with all of its advances, cannot in fact change anyone’s sex, okay. You can define yourself as a trans man, or a trans woman, as one of these new gradations along the scale. But ultimately, every single cell in the human body, the DNA in that cell, remains coded for your biological birth.

“So there are a lot of lies being propagated at the present moment, which I think is not in anyone’s best interest.

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Paglia: There [comes] a time when these fine gradations of gender identity—I’m a male trans doing this, etc.—this is a symbol of decadence, I’m sorry. Sexual Personae talks about this: That was in fact the inspiration for it, was that my overview of history and my noticing that in late phases, you all of a sudden get a proliferation of homosexuality, of sadomasochism, or gendered games, impersonations and masks, and so on. I think we’re in a really kind of late phase of culture.

reason: So that the proliferation of cultural identities, the proliferation of all sorts of possibilities is actually a sign that we’re…

Paglia: On the verge of collapse? Yes! Western culture is in decline. There’s absolutely no doubt about it, in my view, looking at the history of Egypt, of Babylon, of Byzantium, and so on. And so what’s happening is everyone’s so busy-busy-busy with themselves, with this narcissistic sense of who they are in terms of sexual orientation or gender, and this intense gender consciousness, woman consciousness at the same time, and meanwhile…

reason: Is that also racial or ethnic consciousness as well?

Paglia: Right now, to me, the real obsessions have to do with gender orientation. Although I think there’s been this flare-up [regarding race]. I voted for Obama, but I’ve been disappointed. I think we had hoped that he would inaugurate a period of racial harmony, and I think the situation has actually become even worse over recent years. It seems to be overt inflammatory actions by the administration to pit the races against each other, so I think there’s a lot of damage that needs to be healed.

But I think most of the problems as I perceive them in my students and so on, is that there’s this new obsession with where you are on this wide gender spectrum. That view of gender seems to me to be unrealistic because it’s so divorced from any biological referent. I do believe in biology, and I say in the first paragraph of Sexual Personae that sexuality is an intricate intersection of nature and culture. But what’s happened now is that the way the universities are teaching, it’s nothing but culture, and nothing’s from biology. It’s madness! It’s a form of madness, because women who want to marry and have children are going to have to encounter their own hormonal realities at a certain point.

reason: Do you see your personal liberation as having helped to grease the skids for decadence, for the collapse of Western civilization?

Paglia: I have, yes.

reason: Do you feel at all ambivalent about that?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, we don't. Autistics don't get adequate schooling. Autistics don't get adequate therapy.
Not a question of rights, it's a question of money:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:


I actually have no problems with transgendered people on a social/moral level. The idea that my tax dollars could fund those operations while my jaw rots and my teeth begin to fall out of my mouth is appalling though.

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Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
History Study Shows: Right before ALL ancient societies COLLAPSED homosexuality SPRUNG UP high!

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Originally posted by Wishimay:


You pay the price for the things YOU do. These kids didn't DO anything to be born different.

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
THE DIFFERENCE IS....... THEY DIDN"T DO IT TO THEMSELVES BY BEING A "GENIUS" AND SMOKING AND DRINKING THEMSELVES STUPID.

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I think you are painting with a pretty big brush. And I am mostly referring to children.

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They get plenty of educational accommodations. Mine got special allowances for testing and time and electronics.

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That's what I'm referring to. ADD and Aspergers and Dyslexia and Bi-polar and dozens of other disorders ARE accommodated. Maybe not to your standards, but enough for many kids.

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And there are many adult vocational programs as well. There is a limit to how much therapy is practical for someone who won't ever be a productive member of society, no matter how much you care for them.

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I'm sure if your kid was transgender and was constantly trying to commit suicide because every time they looked down they felt as if their body was hijacked by an alien, you might see things differently.

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And Transgenders can be functioning members of society, so I think the cost is justified in the long run...

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

A society is like any organism: It has a life of its own. If it can't reproduce itself, both physically and organizationally, then that society has a serious problem. I would discuss this issue in terms of survivability and sustainability (long-term survival). That would be my approach.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

"If you aren't aware, Texans don't have much concern for the well-being of Yankees or Californians, even Yankee factory workers in Indiana "- SECOND

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, let me put it this way: IF child is extremely frustrated that they aren't a duck, do we accommodate that delusion? And why not?

Not that I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for transgenders, but I question the allocation of pooled resources to medically accommodating a problem of "agita" when people are (literally) dying for lack of medical care.

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A society is like any organism: It has a life of its own. If it can't reproduce itself, both physically and organizationally, then that society has a serious problem. I would discuss this issue in terms of survivability and sustainability (long-term survival). That would be my approach.= SIGNY

Signym, your approach is too fucking abstract for fireflyfans.net.

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Instead, try the one-bad-break test. The test tells a lot about a society by what happens when its economically vulnerable members encounter a majorly bad break.- In societies that function well, there are various safety nets in place to prevent a bad break from leading to a tailspin for particularly vulnerable victims.

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"If you aren't aware, Texans don't have much concern for the well-being of Yankees or Californians, even Yankee factory workers in Indiana "- SECOND

Rather than mocking this in your signature, Signym, prove that it is false.- SECOND

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So, let me put it this way: IF child is extremely frustrated that they aren't a duck, do we accommodate that delusion? And why not? Not that I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for transgenders, but I question the allocation of pooled resources to medically accommodating a problem of "agita" when people are (literally) dying for lack of medical care- SIGNY

I see that all the time, and it is STILL one of the dumbest analogies on the internet. We have the tech to make a kid pretty much pass for another gender, we don't have the tech to make them pass for a DUCK. But hey, if the kid wants to wear yellow and walk around quacking, GO FOR IT. There actually ARE groups of animist people who DO walk around pretending to be dogs, cats, whatever. AND, there are a couple of wealthy people who actually feed and protect them while they do it, I've seen the documentary.- WISH

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When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such.

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Also, in my experience, many Trans people here have their operations donated by sympathetic docs, or they wait until they can finance it themselves. The number of Trans kids is not that many, so I don't think they are that big a drain on the system anyway... But they ARE known to commit suicide if they don't get it... A few surgeries for a life? I got no problems if it keeps kids from killing themselves. Surprised YOU do...

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It's pathetic watching the usual reichwingers here looking desperately for someone or something on which to spew their deep seated hate.

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Why don't you pack up your hatred and fuck off?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I've heard of similar studies of dying cultures which tend to have "outbreaks" of hyper-focus on sex and food and entertainment. Maybe societies which focuses on the lowest common denominator- bread and circuses - are already circling the drain?

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Instead, try the one-bad-break test. The test tells a lot about a society by what happens when its economically vulnerable members encounter a majorly bad break.- In societies that function well, there are various safety nets in place to prevent a bad break from leading to a tailspin for particularly vulnerable victims.

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You're assuming that societies need to focus on the welfare of each individual in order to survive, but that's not true. Look at Sparta - "one bad break" could mean not surviving your first day as a newborn out in the cold. http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm Now, one could say that the Spartan society didn't survive, but then again, in the long run, neither did the Athenian society. Modern Taliban society survives by using women as baby-factories. So there are a lot of societies which survive well enough, although they're societies that we probably wouldn't want to live in.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I've heard of similar studies of dying cultures which tend to have "outbreaks" of hyper-focus on sex and food and entertainment. Maybe societies which focuses on the lowest common denominator- bread and circuses - are already circling the drain?

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Instead, try the one-bad-break test. The test tells a lot about a society by what happens when its economically vulnerable members encounter a majorly bad break.- In societies that function well, there are various safety nets in place to prevent a bad break from leading to a tailspin for particularly vulnerable victims.

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You're assuming that societies need to focus on the welfare of each individual in order to survive, but that's not true. Look at Sparta - "one bad break" could mean not surviving your first day as a newborn out in the cold. http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm Now, one could say that the Spartan society didn't survive, but then again, in the long run, neither did the Athenian society. Modern Taliban society survives by using women as baby-factories. So there are a lot of societies which survive well enough, although they're societies that we probably wouldn't want to live in.

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Have you ever been to Greece? What is left of Spartans’ culture? Nothing. Who now lives like Spartans? No one. Spartans were a blight on the Earth. The annihilation of their culture by the centuries was an advancement for humanity.

The ancient Athenian culture is all around you when in modern Athens. The living Greeks are proud of their history going back to when the Parthenon was new. Of Sparta? Not so proud. The Roman Empire admired the Athenians and copied them. The historians, philosophers and playwrights of ancient Athens and their books and plays are still discussed. Athenian culture survived. Sparta is dead.

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The ancient Athenian culture is all around you when in modern Athens.- SECOND

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Classical Athenian girls were not formally educated; rather, their mothers would have taught them the skills they would need to run a household. They married young, often to much older men. When they married, Athenian women had two main roles: to bear children, and to run the household. In elite families, there was an ideology of seclusion, and wealthy women would not have been permitted to socialise with unrelated men. However, in most families this ideology would have been impractical: women were needed to carry out tasks such as going to the market and drawing water, which required taking time outside the house where interactions with men were possible.

Legally, women's rights were limited. They were barred from political participation, and Athenian women were not permitted to represent themselves in law, though it seems that metic women (a metic was a resident alien; free, but without the rights and privileges of an Athenian citizen) could. They were also forbidden from conducting any economic transactions worth more than a nominal amount. However, it seems that this restriction was not always obeyed. Especially in poorer families, women would have worked to earn money, and would also have been responsible for household tasks such as cooking and washing clothes. Athenian women had limited capacity to own property, although they could have significant dowries, and could inherit.

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Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:

maybe your confused is all

Athenian and Spartan Women

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

MY POINT, SECOND (and thank you for focusing on something trivial to distract from the main issue) is that "society" can survive quite nicely on the backs and bodies of its members. The rules that govern a society's survival aren't the same rules that govern personal survival. A very warlike society which colonizes extensively, imposes its culture and language on its subjects, and still manages to crank out babies has a good chance of survival, at least for a few hundred years. It's sad, but true: Justice and fairness don't result from evolution. Fairness is a human construct, and the only ones responsible for promoting it is us.

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Originally posted by second:


The point I was making is that the Spartans are dead and good riddance to them, while Athenians' culture has some life in it.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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It's pathetic watching the usual reichwingers here looking desperately for someone or something on which to spew their deep seated hate.

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Except since that's not what's happening here, the person who is spewing deep-seated hate seems to be you. Yanno, like this:

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Why don't you pack up your hatred and fuck off?

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See? THAT'S deep-seated hate!

Now, if you want a refresher as to what I've been saying: I don't think it's a good idea to have children undergo irreversible surgery for something that may be a psychological issue. I heard (on NPR) that roughly half of the kids who identify with the other gender at some point in their young lives will change their minds again at puberty. I'll see if I can find that study.

Also, since people are literally dying for lack of medical care, I'm not sure insurance dollars should be spent to treat gender dysphoria. I really don't have any personal animus against the transgendered. I DO have an issue with self-righteous liberals.



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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

"If you aren't aware, Texans don't have much concern for the well-being of Yankees or Californians, even Yankee factory workers in Indiana "- SECOND

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
It's far worse than abuse. It's mutilation, torture. It's based on the fantasy of the child's sexuality. It's a child and doesn't have a sexuality.

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
It's far worse than abuse. It's mutilation, torture. It's based on the fantasy of the child's sexuality. It's a child and doesn't have a sexuality.

This is moral relativism, invented in Frankfurt by Marcuse et al to destroy us, and no conspiracy theory, they were the enemy (Germany) and that was their stated goal, and now everyone's drinking their toxic koolaid.

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
It's pathetic watching the usual reichwingers here looking desperately for someone or something on which to spew their deep seated hate.

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Why don't you pack up your hatred and fuck off?

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:


I like you, I really do. I don't want to look under the hood here

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:


Nope. I have seen a lot of disabled people, including my sister and some close friends and relatives. It's very painful for them to watch people without physical problems create problems for themselves. and when I say that, I mean people are way underestimating the difficulties here. It's not emotional, or feelings, it's a life perspective of the disabled.

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