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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
So what you're really trying to say is that Trump is in a no-win situation and no matter what he did you'd have something to bitch about.

Tell me something I don't know.

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
He's calling Kim on his bluff. That's all it is... a bluff.

Rocketman is shitting his pants right now.

Let's talk about Puerto Rico. Stop trying to change the subject.

Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

Let's hear yours, smart guy.

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I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag & to the country for
which it stands. And as a kid, I really thought that we were
the Good Guys, all the Time! ('40's)

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Second: "I beg Trump to show the world with his actions how crazy
he is and would he PLEASE stop his talking-talking-talking."

I'm the opposite. I'm afraid he will stop talking and start
bombing. Pretty sure he can't tell the innocent from the guilty,
& the bombs don't care where they fall.

I don't want WWIII or tyranny from the USA.

I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag & to the country for
which it stands. And as a kid, I really thought that we were
the Good Guys, all the Time! ('40's)


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Similar in size to Connecticut, encompassing 3,492 square miles.
Population: 3.8 million. As a state it would be considered mid-sized by population measure (similar to Kentucky or Arizona)

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Sq miles  ...  PoP  ...  ...   Pop per sq mile
   304.6 mi²   8,538,000   28,030 : New York City
3,515.0 mi²   3,411,000       979 : Puerto Rico
So the population of NYC is 28.63 times as dense as PR.
Overpopulation isn't a problem in Puerto Rico.

The people outside of San Juan may be mostly farmers &
fishermen. No doubt, urban areas have the same kinds of
skilled labor you'd find in any self-sufficient community.


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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

There is nothing that they could do that would give worthwhile jobs to 3.4 million people on that little island that nobody travels to. What could they possibly have to offer the rest of the world besides maybe some light tourism when they clean up the island? Maybe they can grow some sort of crop that has medicinal purposes that is not able to grow in any other area on the planet?

They've got nothing anybody wants.

Well.... I guess that's their number 2 problem right there.

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Originally posted by SECOND:
There is more going on than tourism from cruise ships. Puerto Rico manufacturing is 46.4% of the economy.

For the USA, it is 19.4%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Puerto_Rico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

My guess is: the USA does a lot of manufacturing there,
    because the labor is much cheaper?

If so, that'd even account for why it's not a US state. :(


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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Second, did you just say that Puerto Ricans are stuck
with bailing themselves out?
If so, I'm wrong to imagine that US manufacturers use
them for cheap labor. If they were valuable to business
interests here, then we would help them.

I wonder why they are so undeveloped commercially.

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The good news for Trump, the country, and the world is that though the fate of Puerto Rico’s 3 million people is important to them, it’s limited in its broader impact on the outside world.

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The Maria-fueled exodus is really an acceleration of a trend that’s been underway for years. Puerto Ricans are US citizens, part of the US labor market, and can take jobs and move wherever they want. And due largely to Puerto Rico’s economic crisis and persistently high unemployment, its residents have been leaving in large numbers in recent years.

Pew Research Center estimates that the Puerto Rican population peaked in 2004, and the territory lost 446,000 people between then and 2016, nearly 12 percent of the population. In 2015 alone, 89,000 Puerto Ricans left for the US mainland, and 64,238 of them have not returned. San Juan, the capital, lost about 10 percent of its population in the decade from 2005 to 2015.

The financial crisis and recession hit Puerto Rico slightly before the US as a whole, beginning with the end of tax breaks that Congress had offered manufacturers for locating in Puerto Rico. The breaks had allowed Puerto Rican subsidiaries of US companies to send earnings back to the mainland without paying federal corporate taxes. US politicians widely viewed this as an illegitimate corporate tax giveaway, and in 1996 Congress opted to phase it out gradually over 10 years. In 2006, the full brunt of the breaks' removal hit, and manufacturers, in particular pharmaceutical companies, began closing plants; an estimated 100,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost, with more indirect jobs going away as a result.
The result was a recession, worsened by the US mainland financial crisis and recession in 2007 and 2008.

Meanwhile, federal law had also caused an explosion in the territory’s public debt. Puerto Rican debt is “triple exempt” from taxes: Bonds issued by the territory’s government are exempt from state/territory-level, municipal, and federal taxation. There’s other triple-exempt debt in the US too, but you generally have to live in the place in question to enjoy it; Californians buying California state debt, for instance, get a triple exemption. Puerto Rico’s debt, however, is triple-exempt no matter who buys it. That naturally led a lot of people to want to buy it, giving the government a reason to take out lots of debt.

The sudden collapse of the territorial (and national) economy in the late 2000s made repaying that debt tough. That led to pressure for austerity policies that made the economic situation as experienced by ordinary Puerto Ricans even worse. Even now, after the continental US has largely recovered from the Great Recession, unemployment in Puerto Rico is above 10 percent; it peaked at 17 percent in 2010. The Census Bureau estimates the poverty rate at 43.5 percent. In those conditions, relocating to the mainland, which has always enjoyed far higher household incomes than Puerto Rico, starts to look very attractive.

“If you compare it to the historic periods where there’s been the greatest levels of migration, like after WWII and in the ’80s, the last 10 years are another one of those peaks,” Elizabeth Aranda, a professor of sociology at the University of Southern Florida who studies Puerto Rican migrant communities, says. “It might even surpass migration in the 1980s.”The Maria-fueled exodus is really an acceleration of a trend that’s been underway for years. Puerto Ricans are US citizens, part of the US labor market, and can take jobs and move wherever they want. And due largely to Puerto Rico’s economic crisis and persistently high unemployment, its residents have been leaving in large numbers in recent years.

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Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

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Is there anything that Trump could do right now about Puerto Rico that would make you happy? I give the ultimate handout solution and say bring the entire island over here as refugees, and you still don't like that solution.

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1- Handout solution - it's funny, Big Corporations get bailouts (really corporate welfare) and very little is said - barely a blip on the radar screen - and yet...

2- It brings me to the "refugees" statement - can Americans, within their own country, be called refugees?

There is a solution that would both rebuild the island, and repay the Bonds held (despite the fact they were illegally obtained by UBS) against Puerto Rico. Restructure the debt and rebuild the infrastructure. Now that is, of course, that the bond holders don't want to take over the island and bypass the statehood option.
With statehood Puerto Rico would go the way of Hawaii and become another luxury playground for the rich and famous, and employ the natives of the island as a type of indentured slaves.

I don't think that the US Congress will opt to make PR a state, there's too much at stake. I believe that they will be allowed to suffer and literally 'sink' into the ocean. Wall Street will call in their notes and put the squeeze on PR, and be made to repay their debt by surrendering the island as so much collateral. I'm not sure of the logistics, but somehow the island will wind up in others hands. Properties will be bought up for pennies on the dollar, and packaged to investors. Wall Street will get paid and the island will be made into a type of Hawaii/Disneyland, as I said, a playground for the wealthy. A new style colonialism.

Just sayin'


SGG

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In 2014, James Paul criticized the original 1951 definition on three accounts:[9]

"refugees have been defined in terms of those moving across nation-state borders, as if national identity excludes all other displacements of equal consequence ...";
"the neat definition of Article 1 glides over the ?ne print a little further down the page that allows state signatories to choose to restrict the definition of refugees to only those who have come from Europe, and during a very particular time-period ...";
"it gives credence to the notion that personal individualized 'fear of being persecuted' is the core reason for needing support. War, upheaval, famine and pestilence do not in the conventional definition make for refugee status. It does not matter that civilian deaths as a proportion of deaths in war escalated to 10% in World War I, and to more than 90% of the 40 million killed since 1945. It only matters that persons fear the persecution of their state."

Not all reasons for seeking asylum in another country satisfy the definition of "refugee" according to article 1A of the 1951 Refugee Convention. In 1951, the parties of the treaty had the idea that slavery was a thing from the past and therefore escaped and fleeing slaves are a group not mentioned in the definition.[citation needed] Fleeing droughts and hunger, fleeing economic hardship, natural disasters and not even war or terror satisfied the definition of 1951.

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However, the prevailing consensus among scholars, lawmakers and policymakers is that Puerto Ricans are not entitled to a constitutional citizenship status. While Puerto Ricans are officially U.S. citizens, the territory remains unincorporated. This contradiction has enabled the governance of Puerto Rico as a separate and unequal territory that belongs to, but is not a part of, the United States.

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The ConversationOn June 11, Puerto Ricans will vote in a nonbinding status plebiscite deciding whether Puerto Rico should become a state or a sovereign country. If a majority votes for statehood, the question is whether Congress will grant 3.5 million U.S. citizens the ability to live in the 51st state.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Jennifer Lopez Takes Stage at Telethon to Perform
and Promise Puerto Rico 'You Are Not Forgotten'
http://people.com/music/jennifer-lopez-performs-puerto-rico-benefit-co
ncert/

On Saturday night, Jennifer Lopez performed at One Voice: Somos Live!
A Concert for Disaster Relief — the Puerto Rico benefit concert and
telethon she organized with her ex-husband Marc Anthony and boyfriend
Alex Rodriguez.

In addition to singing several of her hit tracks, Lopez also took the
stage to champion the fundraising efforts by a slew of -star-studded
participants.



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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
ARRRGGHe!!

Trump threat to abandon Puerto Rico recovery sparks a backlash
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-threat-to-abandon-puerto
-rico-recovery-sparks-a-backlash/2017/10/12/cf0d0abe-af62-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.ab02cbb2b960

"President Trump served notice Thursday that he may withdraw federal
relief workers from Puerto Rico and blamed the island for its failing in-
frastructure, effectively threatening to abandon the U.S. territory amid
a staggering humanitarian crisis in the aftermath of twin hurricanes."

... "On the island, residents and elected officials responded to Trump’s
Thursday tweets with outrage and disbelief."


It's true that I've not said anything nice about Donald Trump so far.
But until now, I never thought that he might be Truly Evil, rather than
just an Olde Spoiled Brat.

PR was in bad shape before Maria came thru & took out any/all structures
& facilities not built to withstand the Ages. As our Protectorate, PR is
entitled to our aide. It is US neglect that has caused at least some of
PR's poverty.

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2 - Yes they can. If California were falling into the ocean, or the same thing that happened to Puerto Rico happened instead to Hawaii, we'd be calling them Refugees. The term's orginal use was just for persons seeking refuge. Refuge itself meaning "shelter or protection from danger or distress".

The current use of the word is bullshit and is under discussion currently for redefinition...

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Add to that the fact that Puerto Ricans are Americans only in the very loosest sense of the word.

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"According to The Citizens Educational Foundation, June 9, 1999: Persons born in Puerto Rico acquire U.S. citizenship under 8 U.S.C. 1402, which is part of the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act. This is statutory citizenship rather than citizenship arising from birth or naturalization in a state of the union under the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. U.S. citizenship is protected by the U.S. Constitution from being taken away arbitrarily. Congress cannot take away citizenship previously granted to Puerto Ricans....without any legitimate purpose."

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/trump-fails-puerto-rico.htm
l

Comments: David Ricardo, Massachusetts - 3 Oct 17 says,
Oh, please. This column is what Trump would call "fake news." There has been only one individual on the entire island who complained about the federal government's response, the mayor of San Juan. This mayor had not met with FEMA officials and had not participated in recovery efforts. The governor of Puerto Rico was initially quite positive on the federal government's actions.

The problems with distribution in PR are due to unionized drivers failing to show up for work. There are tons of supplies in the port ready for distribution, and the local drivers are nowhere to be found. Let's put the criticism where it belongs.

In addition, PR is plagued by poor governance and corruption. I, for one, do not want to dump a bunch of aid on an island without the government infrastructure to manage it. Puerto Rico has a long history of incompetence and corruption, and let's not use Hurricane Maria as an excuse to bail out these crooks.
.......

OK. I quote Ricardo because he does speak to something I
suspected. Altho from here, I dunno if Mayor Yulin Cruz
is at fault, or is it the Governor Rossello?
When I first began to read about PR after this disaster
struck ... I saw that they appear to have huge debt for
a state of only 3.6 million citizens. And no way to work
out of it 'cause unemployment is also very high? Seems
like business as usual in PR had the citizens in dire
straits beFore the storm.

I've no idea of the age distribution of people there.
What percentage are employable? Are there jobs to be had?
If so, do they get even minimum wage? ... I don't know.

We often call such places "a banana republic." This one's
a banana US protectorate that we're not managing very well
at all. If things don't work down there, isn't it on the USA
to fix ... We like to interfere & we're good at it.

But if it was our 51st state ... that's a different story.


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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Here's a video by Splinter/Jack Mirkinson on Puerto Rico
https://splinternews.com/lets-start-talking-about-puerto-rico-honestly
-1819456138
SGG

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Here's a video by Splinter/Jack Mirkinson on Puerto Rico
https://splinternews.com/lets-start-talking-about-puerto-rico-honestly
-1819456138
SGG

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I've wondered for quite a while - why does the US hold lands (Puerto Rico, Guam, Northern Mariana islands - where goods have the coveted Made in USA label, U.S. Virgin Islands, and American Samoa) with the inhabitants in limbo?

I thought we were the land of the free.

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Floridians are “amazing people,” President Trump tweeted after Hurricane Irma. “We’re going to see some of the folks and make sure they’re happy,” he said in Fort Myers. Texans, for their part, “have done a fantastic job of getting things together” after Harvey.

“We are with you today, we are with you tomorrow, and we will be with you EVERY SINGLE DAY AFTER, to restore, recover, and REBUILD!” he told Texas. Florida received the same message, right down to the: “EVERY SINGLE DAY.”

And Puerto Ricans? They “want everything to be done for them,” Trump has tweeted. “We cannot keep FEMA, the Military & the First Responders, who have been amazing (under the most difficult circumstances) in P.R. forever!”

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