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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Ethnic cleansing by the U.S. in Iraq is a ridiculous and irresponsible accusation!!!
Given that, it is not suprising in the least who started this thread, and who is supporting the statement.

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I think it's completely fair. Especially when we have undeniable proof of American forces commiting murder, torture, and rape of prisoners as policy as opposed to mere isolated "incidents".

Why not ethnic cleansing? It may not be that particularly but it's plain Fallujah was wipped from the Earth from April to about yesterday in a murderous campaign that involved months of bombing followed by house to house, building to building destruction.

Why?

The USAs record so far is horrific, you can deny it all you want but guess what... the rest of the world isn't American and has no problem seeing the actions into Fallujah as nothing short of a scorched earth policy directly from the criminals in the White House.

Proof - Fallujah is no more. It's a ruin.

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If you want to talk about Ethnic cleansing, look at Bosnia and Milosivic. The U.N. did nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide.

It was the U.S. that led the fight with NATO that stopped that atrocity. Where was the U.N.?

Or, more current events make you look at the Sudan situation. Again, what is the U.N. doing?

The U.N. is doing nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide. How would you like some sanction put on you?"

Give us all a break, and at least try to temper
your blatant partisan rhetoric with even a tiny modicum of intelligent thought.

By the way, where is you outrage for France invading the Ivory Coast, wiping out there military. Oh my goodness, they did'nt even have the support of the U.N. to do this. Are they Crazy? Are they NeoFacist Nazi scum?

By your arguments they certianly are. Where is the outrage??????

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Off topic. More misdirection.

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The hospital also had no patients to treat as a bridge leading to it was littered with roadside bombs, making entry perilous, said a military spokeswoman

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- After this, I'll be off-line for a while so I'll try to fully respond in this post.

Apparently, the city of Falujah has been bombed to rubble. Mosques, schools, clinics, homes, hospitals, ambulances, water distribution... no service or home was spared from bombing. We dispatch wounded enemy in the field. You manage, somehow, to rationalize it all: The schools, mosques, homes' clinics, hospitals, wounded and dead MIGHT be used to attack, MIGHT be booby trapped, MIGHT house insurgents.

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How do you justify- if you can- w/holding water and aid from even the occupied parts of the city for a week? Keeping the only hospital from functioning?

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Can you justify shooting down a group of Iraqi women strolling towards a checkpoint? What about making a group of kids run and then using them for target practice? Throwing prisoners down a well? I'd like to hear you rationalize that... I'm confident that you'll find a way.

But if you DO have a limit, where is it? Waiting for your reply.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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The hospital also had no patients to treat as a bridge leading to it was littered with roadside bombs, making entry perilous, said a military spokeswoman

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Hero- Supposedly, there are pix of doctors and patients handcuffed in the hospital. There were also supposedly phone calls (I think cell phone) from doctors at the hospital describing the hospital occupation. That seems to be in contradiction to the Army statements. Can you clarify- either find and validate the pix/ phone calls or the Army statement? I don't necessarly believe what the Army says just bc they say it. Thanks.

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The photos I've seen show anything from intact building to broken windows to individual houses reduced to rubble. Military civil affairs teams tasked with restoring infrastructure have found that much of the water, sewer, and electrical system is in good shape and just needs to be repaired and restarted.

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The buildings targeted during the attack were those from which fire was being received.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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The hospital also had no patients to treat as a bridge leading to it was littered with roadside bombs, making entry perilous, said a military spokeswoman

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Hero- Supposedly, there are pix of doctors and patients handcuffed in the hospital. There were also supposedly phone calls (I think cell phone) from doctors at the hospital describing the hospital occupation. That seems to be in contradiction to the Army statements. Can you clarify- either find and validate the pix/ phone calls or the Army statement? I don't necessarly believe what the Army says just bc they say it. Thanks.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Fortunately for me, Geezer found the pix, so you can go tell HIM to shut hell up!
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Originally posted by SignyM:
That's OK. I understand that there is a lag - in our lab, where results are sometimes used for prosecution, review and validation takes the longer than actually analyzing the sample.

As far as the rationalizing thing- I'm just trying to get a bead on where you draw the line. Sure, if someone is shooting at me, I'll shoot back. That's heat of the battle/ self defense. Been in a situations myself where I almost shot someone (sight unseen) because I was still jangled from being victimized the day before.

So maybe six hours later your adrenalin is still pumping and you find a wounded guy crawling around- clearly no threat- and blow him away bc you're still "primed". Still acceptable?

Or you're at a checkpoint and women approach you and won't stop when you tell them to, you feel threatened so you shoot. Still acceptable?

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Or you are facing someone who is clearly a civilian and they get in the way and you shoot, although you did not feel particularly threatened. Still acceptable?

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
You overstate your arguments in such a way as to lead me to believe that you are so out of touch with reality that you might actually believe what you submit.

There is not one thing that you have stated that supports your charge of ethnic cleansing. Do you even know what "ethnic cleansing" is??????

I gave you two examples in Bosnia and the Sudan. What is so hard for you to understand. Including this in my post was not in the least "off topic", it was not in the least "more misdirection". It was meant to educate you into the meaning of the term "ethnic cleansing" using real world actual events, rather than your half baked statements that are meant to do nothing but slam the coalition fighting to liberate Iraq from these insurgents and terrorist groups that are indeed associated with Al Queda.

It's quite plain you have a great sympathy towards these poor peaceful terrorist groups, but your mangling and omitting of the actual facts and blatant propogandizing is'nt helping your cause in the least on the threads.

Please do us all a favor and get off your self agrandizing, pseudo intelectual, self proclaimed winner of all debates in all threads, high horse.

You and your five member "mutual admiration society" can be, and are, more than a bit embarassing.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Fortunately for me, Geezer found the pix, so you can go tell HIM to shut hell up!
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Supposedly...

H

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
You overstate your arguments in such a way as to lead me to believe that you are so out of touch with reality that you might actually believe what you submit.

There is not one thing that you have stated that supports your charge of ethnic cleansing. Do you even know what "ethnic cleansing" is??????

I gave you two examples in Bosnia and the Sudan. What is so hard for you to understand. Including this in my post was not in the least "off topic", it was not in the least "more misdirection". It was meant to educate you into the meaning of the term "ethnic cleansing" using real world actual events, rather than your half baked statements that are meant to do nothing but slam the coalition fighting to liberate Iraq from these insurgents and terrorist groups that are indeed associated with Al Queda.

It's quite plain you have a great sympathy towards these poor peaceful terrorist groups, but your mangling and omitting of the actual facts and blatant propogandizing is'nt helping your cause in the least on the threads.

Please do us all a favor and get off your self agrandizing, pseudo intelectual, self proclaimed winner of all debates in all threads, high horse.

You and your five member "mutual admiration society" can be, and are, more than a bit embarassing.

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I'm embarassing? My point of view isn't uncommon among people who aren't American. Not that Americans care what the world thinks of them.

In case you are curious...

I know what Ethnic Cleansing is. Remember, I didn't say that was the case in Fallujah... only that it was a possiblity. Considering the level of destruction and my assurtion that there is no terrorist enemy there I don't see it as being beyond the realm of the possible.

Especially considering the history of the USA. A history of lies, death, and destruction. What I mean is, compared to other countries the USA is a very aggressive nation that often... OFTEN, ignores human rights in favour of it's own interests. Americans might not understand this but we in the rest of the world do. Our world perspective once again.

You can argue I'm wrong and that there are indeed terrorists coming in by the truck load to Fallujah... but I don't believe that to be true.

You can argue the US Military is acting in the best interests of Iraqis... but no one believes that is true.

And you can argue the USA is there, in your own words, " ...fighting to liberate Iraq from these insurgents and terrorist groups that are indeed associated with Al Queda." ... but that doesn't make it true.

Do me a favour and get off your trojan horse.

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The photos I've seen show anything from intact building to broken windows to individual houses reduced to rubble. Military civil affairs teams tasked with restoring infrastructure have found that much of the water, sewer, and electrical system is in good shape and just needs to be repaired and restarted. The buildings targeted during the attack were those from which fire was being received. If the insurgents were using mosques, schools, homes, etc. those buildings were destroyed, but no wholesale destruction occurred.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, I don't have a problem with people being handcuffed in that situation provided that they weren't handcuffed in painful positions for long periods of time. My point here was that the Army implies that the hospital was not occupied- just interdicted- but photographs of handcuffed doctors and patients would be proof to the contrary. It IS possible that the Army skated the truth because the hospital was "techncially" occupied by Iraqi forces... that would be pretty typcial of military lack of transparency.

The military also provides a pretty upbeat assessment of the situation (although they have not addressed civilian deaths as far as I know). But bowing to Geezer's first-hand experience in military affairs, I find a contradictions between what he says and... what he says. According to Geezer

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The photos I've seen show anything from intact building to broken windows to individual houses reduced to rubble. Military civil affairs teams tasked with restoring infrastructure have found that much of the water, sewer, and electrical system is in good shape and just needs to be repaired and restarted. The buildings targeted during the attack were those from which fire was being received. If the insurgents were using mosques, schools, homes, etc. those buildings were destroyed, but no wholesale destruction occurred.

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. But at the same time, he clearly and repeatedly says that, given the nature of the insurgency, the best course is to SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER. Indeed, a military description of the "mopping up" operation in Falujah says that because the warren of alleyways and homes is too dangerous to go house to house, suspected homes are just being reduced by tank fire. It seems to me that pretty much describes the whole invasion- suspected mosques, clinics, schools, homes, wounded... whatever... were blown away first. The invasion of Falujah was not a nice clean operation where only the "bad guys" got hurt- given the situtation that's not possible (as Geezer has made amply clear) and so I tend to discount happy-face military announcments- especially since they have totally avoided the topic of civilian casualites.

Oops- gotta go.

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Originally posted by rue:
I've been quietly following the thread. I wonder if Geezer realizes just how, well, lame he looks.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't address the insurgent actions because I have no control over them. But as an American citizen I have some measure of control over our actions, if only to understand what's going on and vote accordingly. And the way I handle the information is not to focus my attention on "them" and how bad "they" are, but on us.

I'm sorry that you feel that I took your words out of context, but you stated repeatedly and persuasively that we try our best to save civilian lives but we shoot first and ask questions later. There is an inherent contradiction in what you say, I didn't put it there and I can't take it away.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
... But at the same time, he clearly and repeatedly says that, given the nature of the insurgency, the best course is to SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm.. says who? Do you have a personal in with the general where you can get the straight stuff? And if at least some of the soldiers are blowing away the wounded point-blank, and a functioning hospital was occupied (BTW, how DID we get past all those bombs and boobytraps on the bridge?) how can you say with confidence that some missions similarly didn't go astray? EDITED TO ADD: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POLICY SEEMS TO BE SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Respectfully?

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The thing is I don't make statments like ""...killing an entire city...". lightly. I've seen the shots of Fallujah yesterday. Looks like the Warsaw Getto on a bad day. You know, when the Nazis burned it down building by building.

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America is murdering, torturing, and raping innocent people in an insane war. You can go around twisting facts to prop up your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change the reality. Fallujah is a war crime on a scale not seen since Vietnam.

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About Saddam being a Sunni. Sure he was, by birth. But that isn't what he was as the Iraq tyrant. His supporters were a criminal gang of various people, many family oriented. It was like the mafia. Making a connection from the entire Sunni population to Saddam is specious at best. What you have done is use a speck of truth as proof to your opinion about Saddam and the Sunnis. But it isn't true and what's more that's common knowledge about Saddam (I've seen this subject talked about).

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Besides, what could your point actually be? That if the city of Fallujah was traditionally a Saddam stronghold it should be raised? America still looking like ethnic cleansing in that scenario too you see.

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BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A portly Shiite cleric, Abu Qusai sheds his black robe for a training suit and exchanges his white turban for a baseball cap, an effort to mask his identity for a risky trip through what has become known as the "triangle of death."

The region has become a death zone for many Shiite Muslims, Westerners and members of the Iraqi security services, many of whom have become the victims of Sunni Muslim insurgents and gunmen _ some who receive bounties of several thousand dollars.

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Militants Try to Stir Arab-Kurd Violence
Updated: Friday, Nov. 19, 2004 - 3:43 AM

By MARIAM FAM
Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Insurgents battling U.S. and Iraqi forces in the northern city of Mosul have been trying to drag the Kurdish minority into their fight and set off a sectarian war, Kurdish and Arab officials say.

Violence against Kurds has escalated in recent days, officials say. The offices _ and officials _ of Kurdish political parties have been attacked. Insurgents fired on a truck carrying Kurdish peshmerga fighters. And at least one Kurd was said to have been beheaded in Mosul, a largely Sunni Arab city.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

Even without the INTENT of killing every single person in Falujah, under the best of circumstances a "large" number of civilians were killed.

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The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Friday that its aid teams could not enter Falluja without contacting insurgents fighting US-led forces for control of the city.

"To enter the city we must be sure that all the warring parties accept our presence," ICRC spokeswoman Antonella Notari told AFP news agency.

"But one party to conflict is out of our reach - we cannot establish contact."

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GEN. SATTLER: Casualties among the civilians. We have treated probably somewhere in the area of 25 to 30 who have been injured. I don't have -- we did not have any that have gotten up to me -- that we have actually any civilians that have been killed during the fighting. But once again, we're still moving through the town and there's a number of buildings that are in fact rubbled. But I can honestly say at this point, I know of none that were killed and only a handful that have been treated. We treat those right at our medical facility, and then the Iraqi interim government made ambulances available and doctors available, so there is a procedure for the civilians to be moved into the Iraqi medical system.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The other point is to question why we are fighting a population in the first place. Clearly, we aren't wanted and we are not viewed as "liberators".
Off-line now.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Dang- I peeked!

Geezer, the military has said, repeatedly, despite the fact that this is contrary to what the Administration is trying to protray, that the number of foreign fighters in Falujah is small (no more than 5%) and even samller in other areas of Iraq. They said this is May, they said this just a week ago. Will you PLEASE stop repeating something that is clearly wrong????

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Dang- I peeked!

Geezer, the military has said, repeatedly, despite the fact that this is contrary to what the Administration is trying to protray, that the number of foreign fighters in Falujah is small (no more than 5%) and even samller in other areas of Iraq. They said this is May, they said this just a week ago. Will you PLEASE stop repeating something that is clearly wrong????

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We don't have any firm info on the makeup of insurgent forces in Fallujah, except that their leader is Jordanian and some foreigners have been captured or killed.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It doesn't take Einstein to count up the number of women and children's bodies that you can casually see. I'll bet there was AT LEAST ONE.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It doesn't take Einstein to count up the number of women and children's bodies that you can casually see. I'll bet there was AT LEAST ONE.

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Well, there was that one Caucasian woman, found shot in the head and mutilated, but you wouldn't care about that, since the evil Americans didn't do it.

Come on. You know that the news media worldwide are just champing at the bit, wanting to report civilian casualty figures. If they got even an inkling from any source at all, cell phone call, eye-witness, escaping insurgent, it would be all over the news. I haven't seen it yet.

I'm sorry, but we are currently unable to provide you with a bunch of dead Fallujahn women and children so you can have the pleasure of railing against the horrible US war machine. Wouldn't you be brokenhearted if there weren't many and it spoiled all your righteous indignation?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by debiji:
... SNIP! ...
And I see no evidence of "ethnic cleansing". If it exists, I would like to see it. Please post sources. If you do not like to post webpages, then please post whatever cites you have, including personal communication. My access to paper editions of English language newspapers and journals is limited, but I will do the best I can.

Respectfully,
debiji

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I'm sorry, but we are currently unable to provide you with a bunch of dead Fallujahn women and children so you can have the pleasure of railing against the horrible US war machine. Wouldn't you be brokenhearted if there weren't many and it spoiled all your righteous indignation?

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Originally posted by SignyM:

Well Geezer, there are already plenty to fuel righteous indignation. Unless, of course, you don't care.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, to recap the points on which we agree-

The US did NOT take the Falujah hospital to "save lives".

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The insurgents are NOT primarily(per military statements) or even necessarily "headed by" (unsupported assumption) foreigners.

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NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 18 -- U.S. soldiers discovered a house in southern Fallujah on Thursday believed by U.S. military officials to be a main headquarters for the network of the Jordanian guerrilla leader Abu Musab Zarqawi, whose group has claimed responsibility for numerous bombings, kidnappings and beheadings across Iraq.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
When dealing with an insurgency comingled with a population, it is "undoable" to kill only the "bad guys". (Geezer, you said this yourself)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The US Army at this point does not have ANY civilian casualties to report.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Are we agreed so far?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4625783,00.html
Friday November 19, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) An estimated 1,200 insurgents have been killed ... the military said.

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http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&artic
le_id=10233
U.S. overstated foreign fighter numbers in Iraq
By Agence France Presse (AFP)
Friday, November 19, 2004
DAMASCUS: Washington exaggerated numbers of foreign fighters in Iraq to justify the assault on Fallujah, an official Syrian daily claimed Thursday.
"The question of foreign fighters crossing Iraqi (borders) has been exaggerated, given that only 24 of the 1,000 insurgents captured in Fallujah are foreign," Ath-Thawra said.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D01
56D17.htm
Thursday 18 November 2004
Al-Jazeera
(O)f the more than 1000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in Fallujah last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, General George Casey, the top US ground commander in Iraq, said on Monday.
Also on Monday, Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledged that anti-US fighters were largely made up of his countrymen.

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http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11433633
%255E1702,00.html
"A lot of the foreign fighters left Fallujah in the early days," said Lieutenant-general Lance Smith, deputy commander of Centcom, noting it had been a "well advertised campaign". "A lot of them moved out of there. Some suicidal types stayed behind, but others moved out. Some went back home, others went to Ramdi (Ramadi?), Mosul and most likely Baghdad to fight another day," he said. Of the some 1000 people detained by the US military after fighting in Fallujah fewer than two per cent are of foreign origin, Lt-Gen Smith said. "Up to 1000 (in Iraq) could (emphasis mine) be foreign fighters," he said, noting that "suicide jihad is not particular to the Iraqi way".

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http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41540
GEOSTRATEGY-DIRECT INTELLIGENCE BRIEF
Saddam loyalists hire Arabs to fight U.S.
Hundreds of foreign nationals captured in Fallujah
Posted: November 19, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Loyalists to ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein have hired thousands of Arab nationals to fight the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, reports Geostrategy-Direct, the global intelligence information service.
Officials said hundreds of foreign nationals have been captured in Fallujah during the past week. They said the fighters were from Afghanistan, Iran, Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Syria.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- I think this is where my discussion with you needs to end. I urge you to reflect on where your assumption that we can do no wrong has led you.

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Originally posted by rue:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D01
56D17.htm
Thursday 18 November 2004
Al-Jazeera
(O)f the more than 1000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in Fallujah last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, General George Casey, the top US ground commander in Iraq, said on Monday.
Several senior commanders agree that the overwhelming majority of fighters are drawn from tens of thousands of former government employees whose sympathies lie with Saddam Hussein, unemployed criminals who find work laying roadside bombs, and Iraqi "religious extremists".
Also on Monday, Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledged that anti-US fighters were largely made up of his countrymen.But he maintained that foreign fighters had often been responsible for car bombings and other spectacular attacks that he said were designed to derail elections scheduled for January.

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Originally posted by rue:
BTW, I do think you owe SignyM an apology at the very least. And as for my comment (you looked lame) which was the MILDEST of personal observations, it doesn't even come close to your standard of insult that you throw around without guilt. So my next observation is that you also look like a hypocrite.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Rue. Let me correct your creative editing. (the dropped text is in bold and italics.)

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Originally posted by rue:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D01
56D17.htm
Thursday 18 November 2004
Al-Jazeera
(O)f the more than 1000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in Fallujah last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, General George Casey, the top US ground commander in Iraq, said on Monday.
Several senior commanders agree that the overwhelming majority of fighters are drawn from tens of thousands of former government employees whose sympathies lie with Saddam Hussein, unemployed criminals who find work laying roadside bombs, and Iraqi "religious extremists".
Also on Monday, Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledged that anti-US fighters were largely made up of his countrymen.But he maintained that foreign fighters had often been responsible for car bombings and other spectacular attacks that he said were designed to derail elections scheduled for January.

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"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Pictures you will never see on US TV.

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

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Originally posted by Geezer:

The topic of this thread was ethnic cleansing, specifically relating to the attack on Fallujah. The premise that the coalition forces, primarily the Americans, showed no regard for civilian casualties, and in fact wanted to kill Sunnis.

My position is that the American forces have gone to great lengths to reduce civilian casualties as far as possible, while the insurgents have not, and in fact are currently causing far more casualties among the civilian population.

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I don't think that "we" can do no wrong. I'm aware that members of the American forces have committed crimes under our military's code of conduct (one of the strictest in the world concerning treatment of civilians and prisoners, I might add). I'm also aware that these people are being prosecuted and punished. And we don't have to wait for some international court to do it.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Pictures you will never see on US TV.
http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

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Yep,
There a bit over the top for public consumption over public airwaves, huh?

By the way, do these sort of pictures appear on Irish or Canadian TV?

I hope not. I don't like the idea of kids seeing this stuff. After a while, they get used to it and the idea of the horror of war gets diluted.

IMHO

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Originally posted by TauSetiPrime:
You dont like this board Ghoul....you said so yourself.

Yet, you come here and post more than a few times a day, and its never talking about the show, cast, or things remotely related to the movie.

You constantly argue about being labeled a 'Troll', but you seem intent on creating thread after thread that strays completely from the interest in which the site was designed.

From now on I'm going to call all threads/topics relating to the Firefly TV show & Serenity movie "Ghoulman kryptonite".



They didnt call it the dark ages because it was dark.

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

? Hey, if you feel that's a fair and mature thing to do, go right ahead. I'm sure you will be applauded for your vitriol by the people on this BBS.

And yea, I do hate this board and most of the people who post here but I'm so constantly amazed at how ignorant, spiteful, and childish people are just because I start my own threads in the proper forum. Sorry for all the logic.

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