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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.

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Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?

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That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?

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That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?

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the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?

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What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Uh huh. I smell bullshit.

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First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.

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Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?

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Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?

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Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014?

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That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?

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Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government

Name them please.

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That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?

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Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?

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the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?

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Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.

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What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?

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Fake. Propaganda-hyped. Irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?

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it was just a wikilink away - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#cite_note-spectroscopynow
-20170101-13 Hosseini SE, Saeidian H, Amozadeh A, Naseri MT, Babri M (5 October 2016). "Fragmentation pathways and structural characterization of organophosphorus compounds related to the Chemical Weapons Convention by electron ionization and electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry". Rapid

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The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues. They were all O-alkyl N-[bis(dimethylamino)methylidene]-P-methylphosphonamidate compounds (i.e. molecules with the typical nerve agent phosphorus group coupled to N,N,N’N’-tetramethylguanidine). The O-alkyl group was varied, with the methoxy, ethoxy, isopropoxy, phenoxy, and 2,6-dimethylphenoxy derivatives being prepared. The syntheses were carried out on a micro-scale in order to minimize exposure.

...

The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD). It is important that such databases are as comprehensive as possible so that unusual chemical weapons can be unambiguously detected.

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In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.

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The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons is an intergovernmental organisation and the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention, which entered into force on 29 April 1997. Wikipedia Headquarters: The Hague, Netherlands

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It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

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Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fantastical? - SIGNY
Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014? - KRAPO

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That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government? SIGNY
Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org - KRAPO

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That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?- SIGNY

Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?- KRAPO

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the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?- SIGNY
Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.- KRAPO

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What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?- SIGNY
- KRAPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

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The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran

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It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY

Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran- SIGNY

Hmm, don't you mean 1kiki posted this report?- KRAPO

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Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:

I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.

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This is I'm very simple. The Russians did it.- THUGR

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, this is what I posted on the topic, see previous page

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Originally posted by kpo:
So, what's your point exactly? Iran synthesised micro quantities of Novichok compounds and shared the mass spectral data with the OPCW. Kiki seems to be adding that this data was then published in the West.

So thanks to this data, any Western country should be able to identify Novichoks when they've been used?

That's great. Thanks Iran. But what's your point?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.

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KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.

KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program...

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Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.- KIKI

You two are very silly women. THIS is your whole point? That other countries are theoretically capable of making Novichoks? Didn't we establish this at the very beginning? Yes, here's me early in the thread:

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KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.

KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program... - KRAPO

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And yet you two are finding new ways to hammer the same tired point. "Other countries are also capable of making Novichoks!" Well, duh. If the Soviet Union could do it in the 1980s, just about any country is technically capable of doing it today.

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But that doesn't mean that they have.

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And it certainly doesn't mean that they would USE THEM - on British soil - on an old Russian spy who worked for Britain.

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Scientists from Porton Down have not been able to establish where the novichok nerve agent used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal was made. Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, told Sky News they were not yet able to prove it was made in Russia.

He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government ... It is our job to provide the scientific evidence of what this particular nerve agent is, we identified that it is from this particular family and that it is a military grade, but it is not our job to say where it was manufactured. ... However, he confirmed the substance required "extremely sophisticated methods to create, something only in the capabilities of a state actor".

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
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But that doesn't mean that they have.
Well, yes, it means that at least one actually has

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You have not been able to establish a reasonable motive for the Russian government to poison Skripal.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Back to cartoons again, KPO?

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Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)

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And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!

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Back to cartoons again, KPO?- SIGNY
They're my primary tool for laughing at you. -KRAPO

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Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)- SIGNY
Accuse me of what I've just accused you of, that's original.- KRAPO

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And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!SIGNY
There's plenty of interesting questions about this case. I'm not sure what kind of reasoned discussion one can have with someone whose whole approach is to defend Russia at all costs.- KRAPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.

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BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."

You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.

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You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!

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BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?

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You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

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I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does. - SIGNY

You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!- KPO

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BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? - SIGNY

You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.- KRAPO

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It’s almost as if her/their main purpose is to agitate, lay down a searchable text trail of contrariness.- GSTRING

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm glad you finally recognized that anyone who is constantly jonesing for war - like you do- is, by definition, a neocon.

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I'm not posting as much as I used to. Right now, I'm just really busy.

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So link that thread

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In Kosovo we have:

1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.

In Crimea we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."

You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.

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Originally posted by kpo:
All of this rambling seems to be you taking issue with my use of the word 'program'. Like making, storing and weaponising Novichok compounds is so trivial that a couple of dudes in a government lab could do it one afternoon, and that would be the extent of the 'program'.

Well, you don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for weighing in.

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Real success for Russia comes at the moment when the listener suspends disbelief sufficiently to start to consider whether all they know to be real is in fact a lie --

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Trying to murder residents of your own country to make a political point is a nasty habit that Britain grew out of several hundred years ago.

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So, the idea that the UK might be to blame for an attack of this kind is one that could only come from Russia, where murder in the interests of the state or its ruling elite still lies comfortably in the mainstream of political practice.

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Nevertheless, the fact that this suggestion is now repeated not only by Russian trolls (and ambassadors and ministers) but also by real UK citizens represents a significant achievement for Russian disinformation.

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The answer, as always, is to take Russian bluster for what it is: a desperate attempt to shift the blame once the realization has set in, as it did in the case of MH17, that Russia has made a serious mistake and earned not just the disapproval but the disgust of the civilized world.

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Russia will continue to throw up wild accusations, nonsensical conspiracy theories, insults, and threats.

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But for most intelligent adults in the rest of the world, a swift reality check will be all that is needed to press the mental mute button on Moscow.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh baloney. The United States and NATO quite comfortably kill their own civilians for political purposes. How about Operation Gladio?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, Operation Gladio went on for DECADES before anyone wised up to what was happening. I wonder what people will be saying in 40 years time about today? It's not like there haven't been suspicious deaths here since then.

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This BBC series is about a far-right secret army, operated by the CIA and MI6 through NATO, which killed hundreds of innocent Europeans and attempted to blame the deaths on Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades and other left wing groups.

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Washington, D.C. – There are no coincidences when it comes to deep politics. Regardless of the propaganda operations undertaken to mask the truth, there is always much more taking place than the general public is allowed to see. Take for instance the case of poisoned Russian double agent Col Sergei Skripal.

The western public has been led by the mass media to believe that Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by Russia as payback for his betrayal of Russia. However, a close look at the facts brings about some astounding conclusions. The poisoning was likely carried out by western actors operating with an intention to either scare or kill Skripal after it was revealed that his handler was one Pablo Miller, an MI6 agent the UK claims is a diplomat, and who was also a colleague in both MI6 and Orbis Intelligence of Trump dossier author, Christopher Steele.

It is important to remember that Orbis Intelligence is Christopher Steele’s company that was paid by the Clinton campaign to create a dossier of opposition research that was used as a basis for FISA warrants on the Trump campaign. In fact, as the New Yorker reported, Steele’s position itself within MI6 likely involved direct contact with Skripal:

“Steele had spent more than twenty years in M.I.6, most of it focusing on Russia. For three years, in the nineties, he spied in Moscow under diplomatic cover. Between 2006 and 2009, he ran the service’s Russia desk, at its headquarters, in London. He was fluent in Russian and widely considered to be an expert on the country.”

Moon of Alabama reported that “Steele was an MI6 undercover agent in Moscow around the time when Skripal was recruited and handed over Russian secrets to the MI6. He also ran the MI6 Russia desk so anything about Skripal will have passed through him. It is very likely that they personally knew each other. Pablo Miller, who worked for Steele’s private company, lived in the same town as Skripal and they seem to have been friends since Miller had recruited him.”

Orbis Business Intelligence was co-founded by Steele and would employ Skripal’s handler, Pablo Miller, as soon as he left MI6.

Further indicative of something likely suspicious afoot, a D Notice, which effectively bans British media outlets and journalists from mentioning Pablo Miller, was put in place on the day of the Salisbury chemical attack.

Former British diplomat Craig Murray posted a screenshot of a tweet that he called a “vital confirmation from Channel 4 News (serial rebel Alex Thomson) of the D Notice in place on mention of Pablo Miller.”

Additionally, although declining to name him, almost certainly due to the D Notice, the British Telegraph reported on Pablo Miller doing “consultancy work” for Steele’s Orbis:

** A security consultant who has worked for the company that compiled the controversial dossier on Donald Trump was close to the Russian double agent poisoned last weekend, it has been claimed.

The consultant, who The Telegraph is declining to identify, lived close to Col Skripal and is understood to have known him for some time.
…
The Telegraph understands that Col Skripal moved to Salisbury in 2010 in a spy swap and became close to a security consultant employed by Christopher Steele, who compiled the Trump dossier.

The British security consultant, according to a LinkedIn social network account that was removed from the internet in the past few days, is also based in Salisbury.

On the same LinkedIn account, the man listed consultancy work with Orbis Business Intelligence, according to reports.**

Clearly, Miller or someone else attempted to cover up the connection to Steele by editing his LinkedIn profile. The man that the Telegraph declined to identify was later named by Meduza as Pablo Miller:

** Pablo Miller, who at the time was posing as Antonio Alvarez de Hidalgo and working in Britain’s embassy in Tallinn. Russia’s Federal Security Service says Miller was actually an undercover MI6 agent tasked with recruiting Russians.**

Although Orbis issued a weak denial of Skripal’s involvement in producing the dossier, Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, noted that it was “extremely probable” that Skripal’s work on the Trump/Russia dossier was related to the his poisoning:

** Back then I did not realise what I now know, that the person being protected was Pablo Miller, colleague in both MI6 then Orbis Intelligence of Christopher Steele, author of the fabrications of the Trump/Russia golden shower dossier. That the government’s very first act on the poisoning was to ban all media mention of Pablo Miller makes it extremely probable that this whole incident is related to the Trump dossier and that Skripal had worked on it, as I immediately suspected. The most probable cause is that Skripal – who you should remember had traded the names of Russian agents to Britain for cash – had worked on the dossier with Miller but was threatening to expose its lies for cash.” **

One thing is certain, if there is a connection between the dossier and Skripal, which seems extremely likely, tying up a potential loose end seems much more likely to be the reason for his poisoning than the widely reported story that Russia tried to kill him. The fact of the matter is that timing of the assassination attempt, being one week before the Russian presidential election and prior to the World Cup, seems to ring of a western intelligence operation meant to tie up a loose end and ratchet up the ongoing information/propaganda war against Russia.

Russia had Skripal imprisoned for 4 years and he lived in the UK for 8 years. This would seem to have allowed for much more studious timing if the Russians had wanted him dead. Are we to believe that the Russians would pick the worst possible time—or is there a more logical explanation?

The reality is that the Trump administration’s investigation into the use of the unverified dossier as a tool to weaponize the U.S. intelligence apparatus for political purposes—as parts were clearly used to gain FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign—is coming to the public forefront. As this information becomes more readily available there will be a much more in-depth investigation into the sources and methods used by Steele.

Make no mistake that contrary to the statement from Orbis, there is a great likelihood that Skripal was intimately involved as a source in the creation of the Trump/Russia dossier. There are clearly too many connections between Steele, Miller, and Skripal to simply be ignored or passed off as mere coincidence of circumstance.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.

They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.

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SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time)….1kiki

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Yeah, the Russians did it.

JJ

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Originally posted by JJ:
Yeah, the Russians did it.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They have the bigger motive"

Such as?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"it's in their budget range"

Which means it's in everyone else's as as well. That's a serious logic-fail there, GEEBERS.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Skripal left the Main Foreign Intelligence Service in 1999 with a maximum 10-year ban on traveling abroad. He's been living in Britain since 2010. Anything he might have done or known vis-a-vis Russia is roughly 20 years old. That's just about prehistoric in intelligence terms, where timeliness is everything.

And, links for your claims.

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