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But because I know I am on the Good side, I know the Anti-Good side is Evil.

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If you don't stand FOR something, then you'll fall for anything.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's say, for example, that you believe in surviving. Or that you believe in defending the USA. Neither one of those beliefs requires that you think of yourself as "good" or- conversely- that the other side is "evil".

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She works haaaard for de rubles, so hard for it honey, so you better think she's right.

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Your agenda is to get people to defer to Russia in order to avoid some made up nuclear war, yes?

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Being driven further away from socialism, you mean.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


Just for shits and giggles: Define the word "socialism".


Yanno I can't decide whether you're lying to the board or to yourself.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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But because I know I am on the Good side, I know the Anti-Good side is Evil.

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That's a problem.

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If you don't stand FOR something, then you'll fall for anything.

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It IS possible to be "for" something without believing that you're the end-all and be-all of goodness. Let's say, for example, that you believe in surviving. Or that you believe in defending the USA. Neither one of those beliefs requires that you think of yourself as "good" or- conversely- that the other side is "evil".

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Socialism: Pathologically naive people thinking that other people wuvvv sharing.

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You probably need to know... that I don't EVER doubt myself

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especially when it comes to pegging people

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


WISHY, you have a SERIOUS problem.

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Let's say we can identify some person (or group) that is a ruthless, cold-blooded, corrupt despot. Can we call that Evil?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Socialism: Pathologically naive people thinking that other people wuvvv sharing.

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Hmm, that's your first problem.

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You probably need to know... that I don't EVER doubt myself

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Well, that's your SECOND problem.

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especially when it comes to pegging people

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WOW, AND YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!!

WISHY, you have a SERIOUS problem. I mean, you're so far off in left field, you're not even in the game! You might want to check out "In the Garden and RAIN!!!" if you want to know something about me.

*****

All I want to do here is to talk and think, with people who also want to talk and think. The idea of attacking people and being attacked ... wearies me. It should weary you too.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

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In March 2013, a member of the State Department’s Policy Planning staff invited me to speak at the department and requested that I “be provocative.” Happy to comply, I titled my talk “Why U.S. Foreign Policy Keeps Failing.” A lively but friendly discussion followed, and it occurred to me afterward that my remarks might form the basis for a short book. I estimated it would take about a year to write.

Like the men and women responsible for U.S. foreign policy in recent years, I badly misjudged the difficulty of the task I had undertaken. Nonetheless, a full draft of the manuscript was complete in October 2016 and I anticipated the book would appear near the end of Hillary Clinton’s first year as president. The timing would be ideal, I thought, as I expected Clinton to repeat many of her predecessors’ mistakes, making a hard-hitting critique of U.S. grand strategy both timely and valuable.

Donald Trump’s unexpected victory in November 2016 was an awkward surprise in more ways than one, but it was also an ideal opportunity to test my core argument about America’s foreign policy elite. Candidate Trump had challenged many enduring orthodoxies about U.S. foreign policy, and he was openly dismissive of (and dismissed by) Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts alike. Once in power, however, Trump discovered that overcoming the foreign policy establishment was much harder than he had expected. Trump’s presidential style is obviously different from his predecessors’ and he has altered U.S. policy in some significant ways, but the foreign policy revolution that he promised back in 2016 remains unrealized. This book will help you understand why.

In particular, this book seeks to explain why the United States spent the past quarter century pursuing an ambitious, unrealistic, and mostly unsuccessful foreign policy.

Why did both Democrats and Republicans embark on an ill-considered campaign to spread democracy, markets, and other liberal values around the world?

How did the foreign policy establishment convince the American people to support policies that were neither necessary nor successful?

Why does U.S. Foreign Policy keep failing?

What is the answers to the questions? Read them at
The Hell of Good Intentions by Stephen M. Walt
www.amazon.com/Hell-Good-Intentions-Americas-Foreign/dp/0374280037/
Bit torrent hash df4aab819243e1daab1752bf4e77769574ad80bf
https://extratorrent.top/torrent/3303698/the-hell-of-good-intentions-b
y-stephen-m-walt-epub.html

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Okay, I thought about it.

"Evil" isn't a useful term. There are people who're dangerous, and some who're dangerous who have a great deal of power. Worse, some of these dangerous, powerful people are crazy. They do horrible, unavoidable things for inscrutable reasons. Killing them might save others; that's a legitimate use of violence.

But "good" and "evil" don't compute.

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing? Democracy and Freedom is a God-given Birthright of human beings only to Americans, not to the unwashed masses outside the USA borders?

Golly, that is somebody we should all listen to.

Not.


Which words are yours? Are you Stephen Walt?

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

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More of your weakling talk, Signym. American can do whatever it damn well please, but America can not do it at whatever price its President pleases to claim it will cost. The true cost is determined by reality, not the President, and our Presidents are terribly dishonest at budgeting for the true cost. They erroneously, and more likely deliberately, price things at 10% or even 1% of the actual cost for success. When they run ludicrously over budget, the Presidents start lying then begging and pleading for more time and money to finish the job that was not worth the true price to be paid in the first place. - SECOND

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Umm... you DID know that there's a thread devoted to the topic. Right? It's over here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=62749

I'm going to do us all a favor and repost your post into the appropriate thread.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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More of your weakling talk, Signym. American can do whatever it damn well please, but America can not do it at whatever price its President pleases to claim it will cost. The true cost is determined by reality, not the President, and our Presidents are terribly dishonest at budgeting for the true cost. They erroneously, and more likely deliberately, price things at 10% or even 1% of the actual cost for success. When they run ludicrously over budget, the Presidents start lying then begging and pleading for more time and money to finish the job that was not worth the true price to be paid in the first place. - SECOND

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I thought JSF was looking for a moral statement, not a realpolitik one. The difference between what we CAN do and what we CHOOSE TO do.

"Democracy" is a moral concept, as is "open markets". They represent moral choices; what he defines as "good".


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

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I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing? Democracy and Freedom is a God-given Birthright of human beings only to Americans, not to the unwashed masses outside the USA borders? - JSF

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

---

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

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a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

---

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"There is only 3.18 million in Tibet, most of who are actually Chinese."

In a few tens of thousands of years, the interloper Chinese may develop adaptations to the high altitude that are similar to, or maybe even different from, the native Tibetans. Until then, the Chinese can never be more than part-time inhabitants, who will pay a price in comfort, health, and lifespan, for their territorial ambitions.




tic tac

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Candidate Trump had challenged many enduring orthodoxies about U.S. foreign policy, and he was openly dismissive of (and dismissed by) Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts alike. Once in power, however, Trump discovered that overcoming the foreign policy establishment was much harder than he had expected. Trump’s presidential style is obviously different from his predecessors’ and he has altered U.S. policy in some significant ways, but the foreign policy revolution that he promised back in 2016 remains unrealized. This book will help you understand why.

In particular, this book seeks to explain why the United States spent the past quarter century pursuing an ambitious, unrealistic, and mostly unsuccessful foreign policy.

Why did both Democrats and Republicans embark on an ill-considered campaign to spread democracy, markets, and other liberal values around the world?

---

Quote:

---

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.- SIGNY

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me. OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons? ... Continuing from my last post, I understand 32,000 have been slaughtered on the Mexican side of the US border. Compared to about 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq. Are these Drug Lords in Mexico Evil? Or is there a non-Evil motive?- JSF

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Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is the biggest conceit of AIL-liberals that they represent "good" and those who don't follow their beliefs are "evil".

This belief is more far dangerous than nationalism. As a "nationalist", you accept that other nations exist. And if you're a consistent "nationalist", you'll accord the same rights other nations as the ones that you claim for your own.

The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?"

I would say that spreading democracy at the point of a gun, and spreading open markets by fiat, seem inherently self-contradictory, and so, self-defeating.

I would need to know how you reconcile those to continue considering your ideas.

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