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(2) Border Security or Immigration Control (regardless of the specifics regarding a Wall) was should have been a big concern before Trump started building his Platform using this Plank.

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Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
The wall has always been a bad idea.

As we've seen lately on the news, they'll jump whatever you build, dig under whatever you build, build with ladders and scaffolding OVER whatever you build.

The one thing Mexicans/South Americans have in spades is resourcefulness. And
maybe desperation.

I just wish they'd stop f'n breeding before THIS place looks like Juarez.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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(2) Border Security or Immigration Control (regardless of the specifics regarding a Wall) was should have been a big concern before Trump started building his Platform using this Plank.

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The reason for the strikeout is because even though I believed that border security was a problem long before Trump was elected (and I have the post to prove it) I don't think it was a "concern" to previous administrations because I don't think they were concerned about it (even tho they should have been).

Just a wording change. I hope I've been clear.

Hubby falls into the same category, as do the several legal immigrants that I've referenced in previous posts.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
With that explanation, I'm 'b' as well.

My Korean friend - brought by his legally immigrating parents from Korea when he was 7 - is also in that category.

Eta, my Hispanic friend - - brought by his legally immigrating parents from Mexico also when he was 7 - seems to think there should be no limits, which would put him somewhere at 5 and 7.

And a Hispanic coworker, who proudly claims to trace some of his lineage back to the Knights Templar, puts his nose up in the air, sniffs, and pompously talks about how the land used to be Spain's.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I recently heard a viewpoint which seemed nonsense, but I had not considered it before. It would change a large part of the dynamic.

So I ask you to partake in a brief poll.


(A) Which one of the following applies to you, and (B) which other specific ones do you believe apply to others you know?

(1) Building The Wall is a good idea ever since, and because Trump campaigned on it.

(2) Border Security or Immigration Control (regardless of the specifics regarding a Wall) was a big concern before Trump started building his Platform using this Plank.

(3) The Wall is a bad idea because Trump supports it.

(4) The Wall has always been a bad idea, even if Trump supports it.

(5) Border Security has never been a problem, ever since Ted Kennedy's 1960s Legislation to import more Illegal Aliens.

(6) Other.

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63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs
Compared to 35% of native households

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SHINY, I left you a detailed response in the Ocasio-Cortez thread about your immigration post there. Since you didn't see it there I'm bringing it over here.

*****
She (sic) supports transitioning to a single-payer healthcare system, calling healthcare a human right. She says that a single government insurer should ensure that every American has insurance, while reducing costs overall. On her campaign website, Ocasio-Cortez says "Almost every other developed nation in the world has universal healthcare. It's time the United States catch up to the rest of the world in ensuring all people have real healthcare coverage that doesn't break the bank." I too believe in Universal Healthcare, like the type they have in Canada (if it's good enough for Sarah Palin...). Okay that's an easy one.- SHINY

I agree with most of that. However, it's not because I think that healthcare is a human right, but because OUR COSTS on healthcare are distorting our entire economy, similarly to our military costs. When you see one sector taking up a disproportionate share of an economy for piss-poor results, it's time to step in.

There are two possible solutions to the problem:

1) Government takeover of healthcare, displacing the cartel-like parasitic insurances, pharmaceuticals, and healthcare corporations which dominate the system, or

2) Aggressive breakup of the oligopolies which make up health care. I've never seen a breakup accomplish what it was supposed to ... instead of paying Ma Bell for phone service I now pay T-mobile AND Spectrum twenty times as much. But if someone can tell me how to break up insurances, hospital corporations and big pharma into competitive units, and make it stick, I'm all ears! - SIGNY

Immigration
Ocasio-Cortez supports a "path to citizenship" for immigrants who entered the United States legally and illegally (I share in her thoughts on this). - SHINY

To some extent, I do too. But this path IMHO should only be open to long-term residents (20+ years or more) otherwise you just create ANOTHER incentive to rush the border! Right? IN ADDITION, people should not be given the "option" to apply for citizenship, but a "mandate" ... on pain of deportation. Otherwise, what happens to the people who DON'T choose citizenship? Are they allowed to stay? What status are they?? And if they obtain some sort of semi-legal status. without the pain and bother of becoming citizens, we have created just another amnesty program which is yet another incentive for people sliding past their obligations to the nation is which they've chosen to earn a living. Frankly, I don't think it's in the USA's best interest to have a large group of ambiguously-loyal people living and working in the USA. -SIGNY

She supports abolishing the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency (ICE), calling it "a product of the Bush-era Patriot Act suite of legislation" and "an enforcement agency that takes on more of a paramilitary tone every single day" (Again, I share in her views of ICE and the current immigration policy of this administration, if you could call it that). -SHINY

Whether you call it "ICE" or "Immigration" or whatever, it is merely a reflection of the policies that it's been charged to enforce. Change the policies, and the organization changes. Getting rid of ICE is pointless.
Now, tell me which policies you disagree with. -SIGNY

She later clarified that this does not mean abolishing deportations (Again, agree). She has called immigration detention centers operated by the Department of Homeland Security "black sites", citing limited public access to those locations (Agree. We should have an elected official or Immigration Czar - no pun intended - running the Immigration Department that responds solely to Congress. There should be public access and any detention of children should have proper psychoanalysis and must meet certain mental health requirements. -SHINY

"And must meet certain mental health requirements" ... or what? If the children don't meet certain mental health requirements ... they'll be held and treated until they do? They'll be deported? They'll be turned back over to the adults who (presumably) have been in charge of these children's mental and emotional state up to that point? They'll be turned over to foster families in the USA?
What's the purpose of this "requirement?" What are the consequences if this "requirement" isn't met? -SIGNY

Any children held in any detention center must be allowed to see their parents on a weekly basis while immigration status is being considered by Immigration officials and judges). -SHINY

Quite often the children are placed in foster home far away from parent's detention facility, otherwise the local foster-care system would be overwhelmed. If you include Skype and other forms of remote contact ... sure. -SIGNY

Any abuse, physical or otherwise, should be dealt with immediately, for any and all involved regardless of position or condition. -SHINY

Yanno, we don't even provide these protections for our own citizens. Look at the number of children here in the USA who're abused or killed while under the supervision of county child protective services or juvenile detention. I'm not advocating child abuse, but the success of this statement is directly related to the resources behind it.
taking on the mental and emotional health of children who've arrived with lots of lots of problems ... autistic children, microcephalics, PTSD-sufferers, neglected children ... I think creates a responsibility on the USA that doesn't morally exist (with one exception)*
Quite honestly, I would take the Trump approach: Keep EVERYONE outside of the USA while their cases are being adjudicated. Most peoples' asylum requests are frivolous. Mexico has been passing immigrants thru with the idea that they will become the responsibility of the gringos up north, whether they have valid visas to be in Mexico or not. Mexico has even offered them asylum, which many have refused. OBVIOUSLY these are not mostly cases of asylum but sheer economic migrations. -SIGNY

I also want there to be a citizen process in place for all immigrants, legal or illegal. -SHINY

Legal only, except long-term residents. -SIGNY

Of course, the illegals must pay a penalty, perhaps a 5 year delay in citizenship. Each should be provided work Visas that must be renewed every 7 years and they must pay taxes during that period, but no social security until they become citizens (as an incentive to the path to citizenship). The work visas would be picture and fingerprint ID, government issued. This would limit any counterfeits (and put a stop to Republican bullshit about fake IDs). - SHINY

Any ID that you print can be faked, it just depends on how much $$$ you're willing to pay for a fake. -SIGNY

Children born in the U.S. would also have to apply to Path to Citizenship procedures, once they graduate from high school the clock starts counting down toward citizenship which would be 5 years, unless they pursue college, then it would be 2 years upon completion of their studies. If they join the armed forces - then 3 years. For each 7-year period of having a work visa, all must pay a $500 fee to continue to work in the U.S. If they go 21 years with a work visa and do not apply for citizenship; then it will extend by 5 years for legal immigrants and 7 years for illegal immigrants plus a $1000 fee... -SHINY

What you're saying is ... no birthright citizenship. I agree.
But then you lay out a series of requirements for children born in the USA which seem to be HIGHER than for other illegal immigrants. I think you need to square up one set of requirements with the other. ... And also ... then what? People are allowed to skirt regularizing their status, as long as they pay a nominal fee? Frankly, IMHO the fee is way too low. It should be high enough to dis-incentivize people from taking advantage of the tens of thousands of dollars of benefits accrued to living in the USA (free schooling thru 12th grade, welfare, health, and food benefits). And again, it encourages people to live and work in the USA in some sort of ambiguous status ... not citizens, and with no allegiance to this country. -SIGNY

The work visas shall afford all immigrants, both legal and illegal, the right to be paid minimum wage, according to labor laws. -SHINY

Again, no. If you don't make legal immigration have benefits above and beyond illegal immigration, then why even make the distinction? All you're doing is incentivising illegal immigration. If you're going to set up a system of rewards and punishments (you get to live and work here indefinitely and be given all the benefits and rewards of living here, with no obligation other than to pay taxes and a nominal fee every year) then why would people go thru the bother of becoming "legal"? - SIGNY

That's my take on immigration, I'm not entirely sure what her take on Path To Citizen is, but there you have it. Well, at least some of my ideas. Let me share something with you regarding immigrants and their economic contributions; this for people who think that they just take, take, take.
The Economics of Immigration: Crash Course Econ #33
... (removed for formatting purposes)
or this:
What If Robert Reich Told You That Immigration Reform Would SAVE Our Economy?
... (removed for formatting purposes)
-SHINY

IMHO Robert Reich is an idiot. I refer you to the study which shows that non-legal residents are on welfare twice as much as legal residents... all without paying taxes.

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63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs
Compared to 35% of native households

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https://www.cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Pro
grams
-SIGNY

*****

So, in sum...

I think you need to create four or five columns which delineate the rights and responsibilities of, and consequences for, broad classes of residents here in the USA, ranging from citizens to permanent residents (a category BTW that I think should be eliminated) to valid visa-holders to visa-overstays and illegals, and make sure that the rights of each group are commensurate with their responsibilities, and that the rights of citizens far outweighs the rights of non-citizens. Also, make sure that he consequences of not meeting the requirements are significant enough that you're not creating some sort of amnesty which incentivizes illegal behavior.

Also, I would add TWO MORE THINGS which I think are extremely important:

* 1) The USA needs to stop meddling in the affairs of our southern neighbors. IMHO our foreign policy has done FAR FAR more harm than good; and if there is any moral compulsion for the USA accepting migrants from the south it is the widely-held perception that the USA has impoverished our southern neighbors with our aggressive militaristic meddling, and that we need to "pay" in recompense for our actions. IMHO we need to break that link and to stop laying moral obligations on ourselves with our bad behavior.

2) English has to be the official language of the USA. There are no nations, only language groups.

3) We need to stop strong-arming other nations into "free trade" agreements that impoverish the already-impoverished.

As I always say: Pity would be no more, if we did not MAKE men poor. Stop MAKING people poor and there will be much less need for pity and for "charity".

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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However, it's not because I think that healthcare is a human right,

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I recently heard a viewpoint which seemed nonsense, but I had not considered it before. It would change a large part of the dynamic.

So I ask you to partake in a brief poll.


(A) Which one of the following applies to you, and (B) which other specific ones do you believe apply to others you know?

(1) Building The Wall is a good idea ever since, and because Trump campaigned on it.

(2) Border Security or Immigration Control (regardless of the specifics regarding a Wall) was a big concern before Trump started building his Platform using this Plank.

(3) The Wall is a bad idea because Trump supports it.

(4) The Wall has always been a bad idea, even if Trump supports it.

(5) Border Security has never been a problem, ever since Ted Kennedy's 1960s Legislation to import more Illegal Aliens.

(6) Other.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

P.S. The Wall is a publicity stunt conjured up in the pea brain mind of a stupid ass moron named Donald J. Drumph and nothing more. It is a smoke
screen to appease the low IQ masses that believe his every little shit for brains schemes. He's conning you, selling you a Bill of Goods to get you all
hot and bothered, but it's all a wet dream guys, all Fake!/b]

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