First Amendment no big deal, students say. by sgtgump

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:

Now, I know that this a very cleverly got up link to The Onion, because that's the only rational explanation.

No the other explanation is high school civics class and a culture of censorship in education. Try to write an article about anything political in a school paper.

There are no first ammendment rights in public school and that works 'fine.' What the heck do we need them for in the big bad world.

Apologies for the unrelenting sarcasm.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Monday, January 31, 2005 4:51 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Yeah, I startled my girlfriend this morning when I read the headline and let out a loud WTF. I think what scares me the most about this is trying to hypothesize why students may hold these views. I mean, I read this line, "Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories." and I'm just flabbergasted. Whatever happened to a healthy skepticism of those in power? How insulated and secure these students must feel. Either that, or just so scared that they are willing to give up rights for the perception of security.

---------------------
"What sort of raw meat do you people feed your cruiser captains, Hamish?" - Queen Elizabeth III of Manticore

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Monday, January 31, 2005 8:04 PM

NEUTRINOLAD

Are we the Soviet Republics of Amerika yet?

I call dibs on the General Secretary of the Party position!

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:54 AM

And here's the other side of the coin..it's not just the children who are ignorant of Amendment rights.

http://www.dailyorange.com/news/2005/01/25/News/Lemoyne.Expels.Man.Ove
r.Paper-840196.shtml

As for ignorance over government, Im not surprised. The local media here interviewed about 30 college students (All registered Green Party or Democratic) and asked them some very simple questions about current politics and government, before the election.

Here was a scary response:

Question: Who is Dick Cheney?
Answer : I don't know, isn't he running for president or something?

Response : Yes, He is the current Vice President of the US.
Student's followup response: Oh..well I don't like him then.

I really think our Educational system is doing our country an injustice. I also think that before you can vote..you should at least know something about the candidates that are running, rather then this bandwagon/Superbowl mentality.
I'm not surprised that kids don't know much about the government anymore. I have a 19 year old Brother-in law who lives with me and my wife(Did not vote because he couldn't be bothered, if he had he probably would've voted however way his family did...even scarier). I asked him whether or not he learned much from his government classes..all I got was a blank stare LOL.

I remember having to memorize every single Amendment for my US Government class in 7th grade. We got tested on them and had to discuss each one and then write a paper on one of the Amendments. It is one of the many reasons I'm a political/government junkie LOL. Government is damn interesting hehe.

I don't believe they do those things today. What's even scarier is that colleges and Universities dictate what a student can believe or speak (whether the student has a point or not). One of the first lessons I learned when going to college was, Learn about your professor and appeal to their likes and avoid their dislikes when writing papers, or expect a low grade regardless of the papers academic worth.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 6:53 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
No the other explanation is high school civics class and a culture of censorship in education. Try to write an article about anything political in a school paper.

There are no first ammendment rights in public school and that works 'fine.' What the heck do we need them for in the big bad world.

School papers are government enterprises. As such a measure of censorship or at least a measure of government control is expected. A student has the right to publish their own paper if they want to express views without these limitations.

You suggest, sacastically, that there are no Constitutional rights in schools. Quoting the Supreme Court I disagree. "FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, APPLIED IN LIGHT OF THE SPECIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT, ARE AVAILABLE TO TEACHERS AND STUDENTS. IT CAN HARDLY BE ARGUED THAT EITHER STUDENTS OR TEACHERS SHED THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR EXPRESSION AT THE SCHOOLHOUSE GATE. THIS HAS BEEN THE UNMISTAKABLE HOLDING OF THIS COURT FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS."- 393 U.S. 503; TINKER V. DES MOINES SCHOOL DIST. That case was decided in 1968, a time filled with much more civil divisiveness then we have today, yet the sentiment remanins the policy of the Court and the Country.

However the Constitutional Rights of anyone, including students, are subject to some level of government scutiny. If the reason is compelling enough and the intrusion as minimal as possible, the govt can interfere if necessary.

H

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 8:21 AM

That may have been the "unmistakable holding of the court" but when you pair a students ignorance of the law with the arbitrary use of power you create a culture and practice that is not in line with the abstract holding of the court. You create a culture where one can be expelled not only for wearing clothes that are indecent or have lewd sayings, but that oppose the corporate branding of the school or are politically unpopular. I don't have time now, but I will try to get the articles that go with my examples.

Not to mention the fact that the current court is a different animal entirely.

Constitutional rights as a matter of law may still exist in public schools, but as a matter of fact they do not. There is no right to privacy or uncensored speech in the public schools at the level at which they could be experienced by students. The existence of the court's protection doesn't matter if they are not enforced and abuses are not challenged.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 10:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's scary, but OTOH it's nothing new. At the time of the American Revolution, approximately a third of the people wanted to remain subject to the King, and most of the remainder were lukewarm (at best) about the whole notion of independance. Similar surveys were done during and post-Vietnam with similar results.

Really, only a handful of people care about freedom in the abstract. Most people are uncomfortable about the whole concept of being responsible for their own thoughts and actions- they would rather that clergy tell them what to think, advertizers tell them what to buy, and government tell them what not to do. In my mind the ideal society fosters freedom, but experience tell me that the vast majority prefer to remain subjects. How depressing.

I have to say that Joss handles this very realistically. MOST people in his series prefer to remain within the Alliance. Of course, his series is about those others... the ones who want freedom.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 12:49 PM

WILDBILL

That so many of our students support government censorship demonstrates the great success of our educational system. For several decades, the goal of the system has been to indoctrinate students into Marxism.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 1:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

MARXISM???? Our schools wouldn't know Marxism if it was on the exit exam! Do they push dogma? Sure. Look at the Intelligent Design/ Creation "Science" cr*p they're pushing. Do they teach religion? Yep... "One nation under God" is recited every day. Do they teach obedience? Well, they're trying! But how does this relate to... Marxism???

It will be a cold day in hell if they actually teach kids how to ask questions and how to think. They would never dare approach the more controversial topics like... er, Marxism. As apparently you haven't either.

Why don't you actually read some books by Marx b4 you refer to Marxism? That way you won't make a complete *ss of yourself by confusing Marxism with something else.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 5:00 PM

MALLORY

My peers disgust me. Just...wow (actually this was on Channel One today, but no one watches that).

I'm going to assume that none of you are teenagers who attend public school. Forgive me if any of you are. First Amendment rights are definitely restricted. I didn't stand for the pledge (for various reasons), I was threatened with a suspension from school. I insisted that I did not have to stand due to the Supreme Court ruling. I was pretty much ignored. Things are less strict at some schools, but First Amendment rights are heavily limited at my school.

"...Somebody should organize a picnic where they barbecue and play that game with a parachute and a giant World Ball and then we should go to that picnic and take all their stuff and make fun of them..." --Drew Goddard

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 5:27 PM

WILDBILL

In the gulag that is our schools, indoctrination doesn't require that anything academic be taught. Our children are being trained from an early age to look to one central authority to run everything. They don't know what Marxism is and don't need to in order to be good little citizens and serve it.

Even teachers don't know what their teaching. The self-perpetuating Marxist machinery starting in the 20's with the "progressives" (even then Marxists/Communists/leftists would call themselves by another name) and got its first full crop of Marxist college students in the 60's to go off and indoctrinate the youngsters.

Talk to teachers right out of college about politics. Most could rightfully be described as Marxists/Communists/leftists (quote Marx and ask if they agree or disagree) but would describe themselves as liberals/moderates/independents.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2005 7:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Even teachers don't know what their teaching. The self-perpetuating Marxist machinery starting in the 20's with the "progressives" (even then Marxists/Communists/leftists would call themselves by another name) and got its first full crop of Marxist college students in the 60's to go off and indoctrinate the youngsters.

Talk to teachers right out of college about politics. Most could rightfully be described as Marxists/Communists/leftists (quote Marx and ask if they agree or disagree) but would describe themselves as liberals/moderates/independents.

Excuse me?? You sort of blur Marxists, Communists, leftists, liberals, moderates, independents, progressives... So, to help me understand what your definition of Marxism is, could you please quote statements from Marx that you think "teachers right out of college" would agree with? Frankly, I can't think of any and I would be surprised if you could either.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 2:21 AM

Actually..I don't believe the pledge is recited everyday like it was 20 years ago. So the "One Nation Under God" kinda gets washed out. Religion is a big NONO in modern education, right or wrong. As for Marxism..I dunno. I need to look at that abit closer, I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment LOL. Both sides of the political spectrum try to squelch the First Amendment Rights of anyone, if their views don't match theirs. I saw it when I was in school and I see it happening today.

The sad thing is..we have 2 political parties that run our country that are so out of touch with reality and the populace..I find myself wondering..How soon do we fall?

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 6:03 AM

Connorflynn wrote:

The sad thing is..we have 2 political parties that run our country that are so out of touch with reality and the populace..I find myself wondering..How soon do we fall

When I was younger a friend of mine (a theology student at Yale) told me that we were trending towards civil war and I dismissed it. I study conflict analysis at a public U and I recently brought this up to some acedemicians and they scoffed. I predict that our collapse will be just as under-predicted as that of the Soviet Union.

In MD the pledge is still said everyday over the intercom, even in high school. But there is no requirement for standing. Censorship is alive and well in both parties, just look at lists of banned books. Twain is especially hated by liberals, and just about every significant black author has been banned by conservatives.

The parties are all about controlling the zeitgeist in addition to the political structure.

If anyone finds a school that indoctrinates skepticism and critical thinking let me know so that I can send my kids. That is the one thing we should teach. But we don't.

Pardon the ramble I worked 9 hours and attended class for 5 yesterday.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 6:12 AM

WILDBILL

I'd need to look though my boxes of old books (I never get rid of books) to find my copy of the Communist Manifesto. I found the ten planks online and hope they'll do. I'll try to adress these from the "moderate liberal" point of view - most teachers.

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.

We need property taxes to fund education. (Property taxes are in effect rent to the government for property you "own".)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Got that but we need "the rich" to pay even more.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance

We need to keep the estate tax. If the children of the rich need to sell their inheritance to pay the estate tax that's too bad.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

(I don't think these are supported by liberals in general).

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State.

We need the FCC after all. Public transportation will help save the environment.

7. Extention of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

(Not sure here either).

8. Equal liablity of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Strongly support Social Security and The Department of Labor.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

(Not sure here).

10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

No brainer here.

I'm sure the average teacher would easily support 6 out of ten. Scored a zero myself.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 7:12 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Mallory:
First Amendment rights are definitely restricted. I didn't stand for the pledge (for various reasons), I was threatened with a suspension from school. I insisted that I did not have to stand due to the Supreme Court ruling. I was pretty much ignored.

My only advice, as a lawyer who attended public school in the past, is pick your line. Pick a line stand on it and fight.

Not standing for the pledge is fine, but is it worth the fight?

I always refused to vote in school elections. Caused quite a stir, but no real fight. The fight came later, when I took a stand against special privilages for Honor Students and Athletes. Being an average student didn't mean the school could discriminate against me. That was a line worth holding.

For the record: average got me through school, college, law school, and the bar exam. Thats just who I was, average student-gifted worker. Yet I'm a great attorney. My favorite part is a certain honor student classmate who works in my office...as a paralegal (couldn't pass the bar).

H

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 7:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes the Pledge is still recited every day, in elementary, middle, and high school. Considering that school admin requires students to stand and recite the pledge starting in kindergarten, I doubt that you will find any child in K-9 actually contending the recitation. In my case, I'm an atheist with a learning-disabled daughter; I can hardly expect her
to go against the grain at ANY grade level, but I consider my parental rights to have been violated.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes the Pledge is still recited every day, in elementary, middle, and high school. Considering that school admin requires students to stand and recite the pledge starting in kindergarten, I doubt that you will find any child in K-9 actually contending the recitation. In my case, I'm an atheist with a learning-disabled daughter; I can hardly expect her
to go against the grain at ANY grade level, but I consider my parental rights to have been violated.

Well..I disagree. My father-in law is on teh board of education for his school district. We've discussed the "Under God" issue and as it stands his school district and those around them DONOT recite the pledge of allegiance nor do they broadcast it over the big speakers. I know that they do the pledge in some elementary schools..but for the most part..I think its and outdated practice that holds very little meaning to kids anyways. Which is why I find it hysterical that people are up in arms when their kids do do it before chool plays and whatnot.

I also have never seen or heard the Pledge of Allegiance in a highschool. I've been out of school for 17 years and have to tell you..I don't buy this, they weren't doing it when I was in highschool (Pretty much stopped when we hit Middle school) and I doubt they've started again. But hey..could be wrong. I suppose in the South they may push this.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 9:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually my daughter attends school in CA. And yes, they did the pledge in LA Unified (where she attended for K-1) and in her current school district. Back in the olden times when I was in HS they also mandated the pledge. This was during the Vietnam War, and so it was controversial whether to mandate or not. I compromised by standing but not reciting and was allowed to get away with that, but kids who sat got detention.

However, we could go round and round on whether schools require the pledge or not. Let's just settle on that it prolly varies from school district to school district.

Let's move on to more interesting topics of what you think schools should teach.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually my daughter attends school in CA. And yes, they did the pledge in LA Unified (where she attended for K-1) and in her current school district. Back in the olden times when I was in HS they also mandated the pledge. This was during the Vietnam War, and so it was controversial whether to mandate or not. I compromised by standing but not reciting and was allowed to get away with that, but kids who sat got detention.

However, we could go round and round on whether schools require the pledge or not. Let's just settle on that it prolly varies from school district to school district.

Let's move on to more interesting topics of what you think schools should teach.

UH BOY LOL..You opened a can of worms with that one hehehehe.

What schools should teach?

It'd be nice if Teachers stopped dictating thought and ideologies and went back to teaching Math, English, Science, READING/Literature (Good God..I ran into a kid in a youth group meeting that My brother-in law goes to, where they play violent Videogames of all things LOL..who can barely read, let alone write),American History , European History, World History etc..etc..

All I've seen is a continuing move to push for mediocrity ad nauseum, less independence or diversity between students (Not talking about special favors..but those students who excel should be allowed to pursue more difficult subject matter).

I think both science and religion can be taught. When I was in school I took a course on World Religion, one of the most fascinating courses ever. I'm not a partciularly spiritual person and didn't view the course as spiritually enlightening..what I loved about it was that it revealed different cultures through their religions. I don't think they should be teaching Science that removes the theory of evolution..what the hell happened to Chemistry, Physics, Earth Science, Biology?

How about a course called "Free Thought and Debate"..where the teacher is not allowed to push their own ideologies..but must allow the students to pursue their own opinions with research as a basis for their opinions. Holy christ ..what a thought LOL.

I'll stop rambling for now hehe.. been a long day.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 10:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

One of the things I'd like to see taught in elementary school is basic material science and technology. I used to take care of a group of kids in my home on some afterschool days, some of the kids from underpriviledged backgrounds, and it was amazing to see how little they really knew about their world. So we would tackle a different topic each week: metal, plastic, glass, wood, electricity, plumbing, weather etc. For instance, I'd ask them to try and figure out HOW water got to the faucet, and we'd go under the sink and trace out the pipes and look at the hot water heater, and I'd explain about the big pipe under the ground that brought water in. If I had the resources I would have arranged for a tour of the local water treatment facility. Then the learning disabled and little kids would draw pix and the bigger kids would write a few sentences. I kind of made it a game, and after a while they got into the habit of just LOOKING AROUND and THINKING ABOUT what they saw. I still keep in touch with a couple of the kids and they're doing quite well, considering their rotten families. I like to think I had a hand in that!

BTW- Free thought & debate is taught in some schools under the title "Rhetoric". I think it should be MANDATORY for all non learning-disabled high-schoolers most of whom couldn't think their way out of a paper bag with instructions. (In fact I wouldn't mind taking a course like that myself... I prolly need one!)

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 10:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wildbill- I'm not ignoring your post, but I need to dig up a copy of the ten planks.

However, I want to add the caveat that Marx spent much ink discussing the nature and flow of capital (Das Kapital I,II,III) and that his theories can't be summarized in a series of "planks" any more than a current party's platform reflects its true aspirations.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 10:43 AM

SGTGUMP

I emailed that article to my dad and this was his response:

"If kids go to catholic schools, they learn Catholicism

If kids go to protestant schools, they learn Protestantism

If kids go to government schools..."

I think that kinda hits it on the head.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 11:21 AM

MALLORY

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
...I suppose in the South they may push this.

I live in the North...

Hero, I stand now. They don't make you say it. You just have to stand.

"...Somebody should organize a picnic where they barbecue and play that game with a parachute and a giant World Ball and then we should go to that picnic and take all their stuff and make fun of them..." --Drew Goddard

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Free thought & debate is taught in some schools under the title "Rhetoric". I think it should be MANDATORY for all non learning-disabled high-schoolers most of whom couldn't think their way out of a paper bag with instructions. (In fact I wouldn't mind taking a course like that myself... I prolly need one!)

Interesting....

I don't think you need one hehehe. Though a course like that for adults would be a blast.

My 3 favorite classes from Highschool were:

European History
US History
World History

I had 3 of the greatest teachers in the world. Many people often talk about great fictional tales..but the best stories are always the ones that are real. These teachers presented history in a non-boring fashion. History is just one gigantic tale waiting to be told and waiting to be written.

I even wrote my senior thesis on the Yalta Conferences. Neat stuff.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 11:48 AM

Quote:
SignyM wrote:
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:36
Wildbill- I'm not ignoring your post, but I need to dig up a copy of the ten planks.

And I am ignoring WB's comments. Painfully simplistic to compare property taxes (evil though they are) to the dissolution of private property. Let's not be stupid?

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 2:03 PM

Quote:
I also have never seen or heard the Pledge of Allegiance in a highschool. I've been out of school for 17 years and have to tell you..I don't buy this, they weren't doing it when I was in highschool (Pretty much stopped when we hit Middle school) and I doubt they've started again. But hey..could be wrong. I suppose in the South they may push this.

Went to school in Boise, Idaho--trust me, the pledge is still recited in many schools. I think however that it differs from school district to school district--this is probably why you're under the impression schools don't have students do it.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 3:35 PM

The last time I said the pledge was third grade, I think. We lived in Wyoming at that time. After my family moved to Detroit, I don’t think the pledge was said. I suspect that if I had remained in Wyoming, I probably would have said the pledge much more frequently.

I’m not entirely sure that I would categorize the public school system as Marxist, but wildbill’s comparisons are interesting nonetheless. The way wildbill has presented it, it certainly appears that Liberals fall quite close to the line of Marxism. But I think there is an error due to discrete quantification here. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Liberals, being largely Left-wing/socialist types, would identify to some degree with several of the axioms of Marxism, but there can be a large difference between agreeing with something and agreeing to some degree with something. Also I’m not sure that most high school teachers could be considered Liberals. I don’t really know. Certainly much of the political leadership of the public education system in the US is extremely Liberal, to the detriment of education sometimes I think, but I’m not sure that translates necessarily to teachers in general. I could be wrong.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 3:21 AM

Well..I dunno. If you don't pay your property taxes on time or are delinquent too long..say goodbye to your property (Regardless of value).

Taxes are rent..if you don't pay em, you don't get to keep your property.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:48 AM

But is that the same as the end of titled property? Communism prohibits ownership, prohibits individual profit from wealth and labour. That is quantitatively different than fee for ownership. One might argue that the state establishes and secures private property. With property taxes being the fee for securing that property. Statists of any stripe, even minimalists, make this arguement. No state, no property.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 5:32 AM

Well..I dunno. In its simplist form I could agree with you. But there are many other issues in which the state has control over your property even if you do pay taxes. I.e. "Right of Way" or declaration of "Imminent Domain"..of which most Property owners have no recourse. Essentially it is my belief that noone truly owns property. The government does.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 6:57 AM

I certainly can see how property taxes could be construed as rent. A landlord has the right to reject use of the property to a renter for the use of the landlord. Likewise Eminent domain gives the government right to evict a person from his or her own property for government use. The landlord has the right to restrict use of the property, such as preventing certain modifications by the renter. Likewise the government restricts how you can use your private property such as in the case of environmental regulations. The reason why Landlords have the right to the property they rent is because they “own it.” What excuse does the government have? I think strong case can be made that property taxes look an awful lot like property rent.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 7:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn, if you ever studied Marx you wouldn't say that liberals fall close to the line. Apparently neither of you has a clue as to what Marx actually said, and what liberals say! I suppose you can FORCE the two together by blurring critical distinctions, but look at it this way... if schools were truly Marxist, they would be preaching against corporations and instructing kids on how to resist advertising. Instead, they sell advertising space to the corps to fund their school programs.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 7:57 AM

Okay. Maybe you should re-read my post.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 7:59 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, if you ever studied Marx you wouldn't say that liberals fall close to the line. Apparently neither of you has a clue as to what Marx actually said, and what liberals say! I suppose you can FORCE the two together by blurring critical distinctions, but look at it this way... if schools were truly Marxist, they would be preaching against corporations and instructing kids on how to resist advertising. Instead, they sell advertising space to the corps to fund their school programs.

I agree. Schools generally are not teaching Marxism, real socialist Marxists teach at the college level.

I think schools are teaching a different aspect of liberalism. They teach victimology and dependence. Thats why every Highschool student knows how to complain about sexual harassment or racial discrimination, but don't necessarily understand the finer aspects of reading, speaking, and math.

H

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 8:51 AM

Hero,
Can you clarify for us what you mean by "liberalism." When I see liberalism with a small 'l' I think about john locke, adam smith and our founding fathers, you know classical liberalism. Whereas when I see Liberalism I think of Democrats. I am not sure that victim as virtue applies at all to the first, and only as a result (not an intent) of the policy of the second.

SigNym,

I agree with you that liberals are not Communists, or even Marxists, but perhaps it would be helpful if you would illustrate some of the distinctions. Normally I would dig out my own Marx Reader from my comparative political philosophy class (okay, not so much digging as dusting, Marx sits right with Weber, Freud and some other less used philosophers) but I am in the middle of a semester and my reading time is devoted elsewhere.

Would anyone here mind a little self labeling to help with the conversation. For instance I generally consider myself a libertarian (minarchist really) with anarchist and conservationist tendencies. A little self labeling is a technique that I find helps people understand one another's frameworks.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
http://www.bcpl.net/~wilsonr/farpoint.html

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 8:56 AM

BLEYDDYN

For those who object to the Pledge of Allegiance just because of the 'Under God' phrase (I do), try doing a web search on the Pledge. There have been several versions since it was first written and not all of them refer to religion. Just pick a version you like and use that.

But I do recommend that you document whatever version you use, if you think people might object.

--Bleyddyn

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:05 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I think schools are teaching a different aspect of liberalism. They teach victimology and dependence. Thats why every Highschool student knows how to complain about sexual harassment or racial discrimination, but don't necessarily understand the finer aspects of reading, speaking, and math

Maybe we should grade the complaints, you know, award points for demonstrating discrimination by using statistics, awarding points for proper logic and presentation; deduct points for poor spelling and grammar...?

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Friday, February 4, 2005 3:28 PM