One nation, over a cliff... by SignyM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And here we have yet another brilliant, heart-warming move by the Bush administration, guaranteed to push our few remaining allies away:

United States Quits Foreign Inmate Accord

www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/10/vienna.convention.reut/index.htmlWASHINGTON (Reuters) --

The United States has withdrawn from an accord that lets an international court decide disputes over foreign inmates of U.S. prisoners, an agreement used by death penalty opponents in their fight against executions.

The decision followed an International Court of Justice ruling last year that ordered new hearings for 51 Mexican death row inmates because U.S. authorities did not tell them they could consult diplomats from their own country right after their arrests.

The withdrawal was likely to anger Mexico, which opposes the U.S. death penalty, on the day Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice paid a visit to the southern U.S. neighbor...

----------------------

If I had ANY doubts at all if Bush was a nutter, those doubts have been laid to rest!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 12:49 AM

These articles are great in the sense that people can get a good look at what Bush is up to and how its effecting the U.S, This administration is speedly charging us down the road of failure

We come off as hypocrites, we can't even talk about human right without coming off as such.

Europe Asia and Russia are pulling together and leaving us out of the loop and can you blame them after what this administration has showed what it will do.

If China decided rightnow that they were going to convert to the Euro or stop trade with us, we would be in big trouble, Economically that country could ruin us and they know it

I was looking into the Euro and I found this article
www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/doll-n25.shtml which I thought was interesting, its already been said that within the next 10 years that the Euro is going to be the dominate currency

America with the help of Bush's tactics is really bringing this country down..both at home and abroad America is fast becoming a joke

Seeing as how we are the only country that has ever used a nuclear bomb on another country I wouldn't be surprised if we did it again

an

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Friday, March 11, 2005 1:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I see that the Central Banks decided (about two weeks ago) to reduce the dollar in their "mix" of currencies. You add our overwhelming foreign, Federal and personal debt to the mix, and suddenly the dollar doesn't look like such a good deal.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:50 AM

XENOCIDE

Actually, a devalued dollar would be good for debtors. Our debts are all set in dollars values and if we borrowed strong dollars and repaid weak dollars then yay for us.

That aside, empires end. Usually, historically, they end badly. I hope ours ends before it is so deeply entrenched as to ruin our nation.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
http://www.bcpl.net/~wilsonr/farpoint.html

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Friday, March 11, 2005 5:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
These articles are great in the sense that people can get a good look at what Bush is up to and how its effecting the U.S, This administration is speedly charging us down the road of failure

We come off as hypocrites, we can't even talk about human right without coming off as such.

Europe Asia and Russia are pulling together and leaving us out of the loop and can you blame them after what this administration has showed what it will do.

If China decided rightnow that they were going to convert to the Euro or stop trade with us, we would be in big trouble, Economically that country could ruin us and they know it

I was looking into the Euro and I found this article
www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/doll-n25.shtml which I thought was interesting, its already been said that within the next 10 years that the Euro is going to be the dominate currency

America with the help of Bush's tactics is really bringing this country down..both at home and abroad America is fast becoming a joke

Seeing as how we are the only country that has ever used a nuclear bomb on another country I wouldn't be surprised if we did it again

an

People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad.

I find such columns and post as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box.

Free country and all that, but that still doesn't require folks to beat a dead horse simply because they can.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 11, 2005 6:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hahahaha!!! Well, it sure helps to know that at least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Talk in Japan Shakes Dollar and Treasuries

www.nytimes.com/2005/03/11/business/11dollar.html?th&oref=login

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Friday, March 11, 2005 7:05 AM

"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:48 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

Sore loser? Naw just a loser.

Vote goes your way, great. Vote goes against you, well it can't be because you lost. Either Bush cheated or the people who voted for him didn't know what they were doing. Lets face it. You hate democracy. You only want to accept results in your favor. America does not work that way...I refer you to the second term of President John Adams as proof (not John Q., John the original, although the 2nd term of John Quincy Adams also reflects my point...as does the Mondale administration and our southern neighbors whose mighty Confederacy recently celebrated its 150th anniversery).

The 2004 election was the simple continuation of a national trend thats been going on for ten years. Thats six election cycles. The Republicans have decisively won 5 of them. The '96 race was a split with Democrats winning the White House but further slipping in every catagory from Congress to dogcatcher.

I think that trend might be ready to reverse...but it hasn't happened yet. Democrats need to divorce themselves from the grip of special interests and the mire of 20th century politics. Red State Americans need health care reform, retirement security, education reform, tax relief, freedom from terror, and a myriad of other things. Republicans address some of these concerns, but their view is limited by their politics. There is no Democratic answer because the Democrats will not address these issues without first dictating a social contract that is unacceptable to red-state America.

Compare the two parties on social issues. Republicans allow internal dissent on gay rights, civil liberties, immigration, abortion, etc. Their convention allows presentations of all sides of these issues. Democrats ban those who dare disagree with the party line on any of the social core issues. Bob Casey, for example, former Democratic governor of PA, and an excellent governor I might add, was barred from addressing the 1992 Democratic convention because he was pro-life. This is the rule and in 12 years there have been no exceptions (although Hillary seems to be making a recent play for the center, she has yet to cross the red line).

H

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:27 AM

Hero, if I am sore, it's not because I lost or, as you ludicrously claim, hate democracy. The reports of registration fraud, voter intimidation and flipped votes involving black boxes have been well documented (Google "election fraud" "2004 election"). Just recently, a Bush campaigner admitted to harassing Democrats by phone. The exit polls on Nov. 2nd showed Kerry in the lead, yet somehow Bush "won" key states. If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:40 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hahahaha!!! Well, it sure helps to know that at least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Talk in Japan Shakes Dollar and Treasuries

www.nytimes.com/2005/03/11/business/11dollar.html?th&oref=login

Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:55 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Hero, if I am sore, it's not because I lost or, as you ludicrously claim, hate democracy. The reports of registration fraud, voter intimidation and flipped votes involving black boxes have been well documented (Google "election fraud" "2004 election"). Just recently, a Bush campaigner admitted to harassing Democrats by phone. The exit polls on Nov. 2nd showed Kerry in the lead, yet somehow Bush "won" key states. If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

Did you actually read all of Hero's post? Or did you just stop at the "You hate democracy" bit without bothering to figure out what he meant?

There are people who do nothing but look at pictures from Mars landers to find "evidence" of "Martian" civilization. They then post their findings on the internet. Why isn't their evidence on the nightly news? Why is the media suppressing the truth?
http://www.totalthinker.com/Mars/mars.html
http://rush.digitalchainsaw.com/marspage.html

For the same very good reason the media doesn't broadcast the stories about how the election was "rigged": internet sources are generally unreliable. People post their outrageous claims to the net; no self-respecting news agency will air those "stories"--and rightly so.

Just saying something happened doesn't make it true. Corroborating reporting and evidence are necessary. Single-source intelligence will burn you every time, because it doesn't take much to make up a story. Just because that story happens to agree with your worldview doesn't make it true.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 10:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Inevitable "Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny."

Wow, now THAT'S a witty rejoinder! Actually, I have a job and a busy life... unlike you, apparently. If you want to look at inadequate responses, take a look at yours, or the one I was responding to:

"People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad."

I spent precious time researching how "things are going" by looking up, in as unbiased as way as I knew how, records of trade deals and so forth as reported in financial, trade, and general news publications. Auraptor's response? A typical unsupported assertion- not worth the bytes it was written with- that "things are going quite well, here and abroad". Oh, really? What "things?" Our budget? Our trade balance? The war in Iraq? Our progress against terrorism?

Given the stupidity of that response... and yours... you should be grateful that I responded at all. If you continue to respond stupidly and off-topic, well, I'll just continue to call 'em as I see 'em. That may involve responding in-kind.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 10:03 AM

Inevitable, I did read all of Hero's post. I chose to respond directly to the first part because it was a pointed attack at me personally.
As for yours, it's too inane to even bother with.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 10:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Back to more pertitnent discussion, I hope?

I think the one thing that really strikes me about the problems that we're facing is that they're all pretty much self-created. And really, it wouldn't take much to fix the most egregious issues... just backing away from Bush's more hare-brained policies.

For example, Bush seems to absolutely DELIGHT in pissing people off, even when it's not necessary. What does he care about the death sentence for Mexican nationals anyway? In fact... and somewhat off-topic... why is he so committed to the death sentence in the first place? I thought he was a good Christian who believes in the sanctity of human life. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Vengeance is MINE, saith the Lord" and all that. Apparently, he doesn't read his own Bible. But... back on topic... it wouldn't cost the United States much of anything to have these criminals serve a life sentence in Mexico. Or Bush's demand that the IRA disband immediately. First of all, it's impossible to enforce and secondly, it's not really our business. You have to be pissing ppl off on purpose to say these sorts of things. It costs nothing to say nothing. And once you make enemies, they're enemies for a long time. There just ain't no percentage in it.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rising Powers: How the U.S. Became the World's Dispensable Nation

Yep. It’s a dangerous world out there. I’ve been trying to tell people this for a long time.

You folks remember this the next time you come across some Salon.com article bashing defense spending, the military, missile defense or other defense initiatives. Sometimes it’s not “fear-mongering.” Sometimes the threats are real.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:07 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

If I believed that were the case I would be more then angry. I live in Ohio, guess what? No fraud.

We did have some token incidents. One nice womane tried to vote in Cleveland without registering then ran outside to her waiting lawyer for a press conferance and a trip to the courthouse. We also had a nice person working for the NAACP registering inner city blacks in exchange for crack, they just pled guilty...funny, that didn't make the national news. There were some normal balloting issues, most easily resolved with little or no delay and many caused by an unusually high turnout.

We had an unprecedented legitimate effort by Democrats to register new voters in our cities. Their success was incredible. The only thing more incredible was the Republican effort to register rural and suburban voters. These new voters not only registered, but they braved the rain and the lines to go and vote and they were the difference. Thus we carried Ohio for the President by a larger margin then Kerry won PA. Now you want to talk voter problems, fine, but its as legitimate to argue about PA and several Kerry states as it is to argue Ohio, which means its either not legitimate all (my view) or the entire process is flawed (your anti-democracy view).

H

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:12 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

Your right, we should do something...

"Orlando Mayor Surrenders in Ballot Probe
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Mayor Buddy Dyer, a judge and two campaign workers surrendered Friday on felony charges that they violated a state law barring payments for the collection of absentee ballots."

...about all this Democratic Party voter fraud.

H

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn- Where you see a military threat, I see a military threat but an ever bigger economic one. Which is why blowing energy out our *ss and staying in hock to the Saudis and sending billions of dollars into the black hole that is Haliburton SHOULD give us all pause as to whether we are really doing things the most effective way possible.

Well, lunch is over. Back to work for me!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:22 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Inevitable "Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny."

Wow, now THAT'S a witty rejoinder! Actually, I have a job and a busy life... unlike you, apparently. If you want to look at inadequate responses, take a look at yours, or the one I was responding to:

"People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad."

I spent precious time researching how "things are going" by looking up, in as unbiased as way as I knew how, records of trade deals and so forth as reported in financial, trade, and general news publications. Auraptor's response? A typical unsupported assertion- not worth the bytes it was written with- that "things are going quite well, here and abroad". Oh, really? What "things?" Our budget? Our trade balance? The war in Iraq? Our progress against terrorism?

Given the stupidity of that response... and yours... you should be grateful that I responded at all. If you continue to respond stupidly and off-topic, well, I'll just continue to call 'em as I see 'em. That may involve responding in-kind.

Mmm..OK. We seem to be back to the idea that insults actually count as real arguments. Again, that's the PirateJenny mode of political discussions.

I generally perk up whenever I see your name at the top of a post because you usually post articulate, well reasoned ideas (even though I usually don't agree). I hope that you'll continue to do that in the future. Given my (formerly) glowing opinion of you, it stuns me to be called "stupid" by you so many times in the same post. If you disagree, tell me where you thought that I was wrong in my argument. After all, that's what I've seen you do in that past--I respected you for actually responding intelligently when you disagreed. Making {i]ad hominem attacks is hardly your style. I didn't call you stupid.

I notice that you didn't bother to reply to the issue that I raised. Again, that hardly makes for good discussion. So, I'm going to raise the issue again.

Internet sources are almost invariably unreliable. That's becuase anybody can post anything they want to the internet. The fact that there hasn't been widespread coverage of voter fraud in U.S. or world news media indicates that there wasn't any. Show me evidence Sygnym.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:24 AM

Signym - I’m with you 100%. If someone has a more effective way, then I’m all ears. But if that “more effective way” means appeasing dictators or handing over our sovereignty to the UN, then I think it will shoot us in the foot.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 12:03 PM

Okay, Hero, that's the second time you've accused me of being anti-democracy. If that were true, I wouldn't have bothered voting at all. I was lucky enough to have done so with a paper ballot which I'm reasonably sure was counted. Even if that were in question, my ballot could have been checked and verified. This is a luxury those who voted by black box didn't have. The fact that those machines were designed by someone who is on record as having promised to deliver Ohio for Bush is part of why me and many other Americans are suspicious of the election's outcome. Democracy depends on access to voting rights and accuracy of vote counting. The way it stands now, we can be sure of neither.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 12:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess I'm on break now.

Inevitable- The reason why I didn't respond to the topic of voter fraud is because it's off topic... or at least off the topic that I introduced. I have no interest in discussing it IN THIS THREAD because I think it just provides you with a reason not to discuss the issues I brought up. Feel free to start another thread or revive an old one.

Finn- I have all kinds of ways to make us stonger and more prosperous as a nation, and it has nothing to do with submitting to "one world government" or ignoring despots and tyrants. The only problem is, it touches corporate power, which seems to be a sacred cow. It requires that you actually break the mental link that equates corporate interest with national interest. But trust me, the corporations are never so happy as when they sell us and our government down the river, since it mkes them so much $$$$$.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 12:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

That's right. He had to cheat.

Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 11, 2005 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- I have all kinds of ways to make us stonger and more prosperous as a nation, and it has nothing to do with submitting to "one world government" or ignoring despots and tyrants. The only problem is, it touches corporate power, which seems to be a sacred cow. It requires that you actually break the mental link that equates corporate interest with national interest. But trust me, the corporations are never so happy as when they sell us and our government down the river, since it mkes them so much $$$$$.

Ah, the “big business” is the bad guy theory. So your idea is to maybe centralize control of corporate power in the government? The last time it was tried it did produce a very strong nation. However, I’m less inclined towards that direction then one might think, so to my previous caveats, let me also add that your theory must retain at least as much liberty, and Jews, as currently exists in the US.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 1:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn- Actually, there are a lot of non-lethal ways to improve our effectiveness. Why do you always jump to extreme/irrelevant examples?

For example, what would be so horrible about requiring better automotive fleet efficiency? We'd reduce oil demand, and be in a better bargaining position vis a vis oil suppliers.

Then, there is the Federal deficit brought about by the tax cut. As ideologically attractive as that tax cut was, it was fiscally irresponsible.

Furthermore, judicious modification to our incorporation, trade, and tax laws would place all businesses on a more even playing field and ensure that they pay at least a minimum tax, which is a fair price for the protection that they receive from our Armed Forces overseas.

And speaking of Armed Forces- why are we still blowing billions on a Star Wars-type "nuclear shield"? The damn thing hasn't worked on 19 out of 20 tries, and has already been thwarted by the development of a guided "ballistic missile".

At this point, I really don't feel like debating stupid points with you, either, since you are so ideologically stuck that your "world view" is pretty much limited to the world in your head. I'm sure it's much simpler in there.

---------------------------
For those that are interested in discussing REAL WORLD events, I'll pass along this email that I got fomr someone who is monitoring curency much more closely that I am. I thought it was particularly well-put, so here it is:

"Thanks for the info but I already heard it on the BBC. Like I said about a week ago the slide has started. The only thing that is preventing a full blown run on the US bank is that they are all afraid of being the last one through the door. Everyone in the world knows that the US cannot possible pay off its debt. So all the countries that hold US currency are worried that if any one of them tries to draw down their accounts it will mean that every one else will jump as well at which point no one will get paid. I think they are surreptitiously pulling small amounts at a time hoping no one will notice. Already over a hundred foreign banks are no longer buying dollars for their reserves. Rather they are purchasing Euros. I would not be surprised if some of them are not resorting to precious metals. The crash is coming but no one wants to be the one to start it. I think they are just trying to warn the US so it will do something about its house of cards. Good luck. I think the Bush administration has no intention of paying. I really think he thinks he can just bully the whole world into going along with what ever he wants to do. I think he could care less about how low the dollar will go since that will make it possible to pay off the debt in worthless currency. Of course that will also mean that the US standard of living will fall like a rock. Can you say hyper inflation, Mr. Rogers? Sure you can. But what do you expect from a guy who ran every business that his daddy bought him into the ground?"

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Friday, March 11, 2005 1:56 PM

DARKJESTER

AURaptor wrote:

Quote:
That's right. He had to cheat. Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

I guess I'm "hilarious" too, AURaptor - seems we were getting our news from different sources. From what I've seen and read (a few months back now) things were pretty well even in the "let's disenfranchise voters" contest. @#&^%$ Democrats and ^#$%#$@ Republicans (choose your own expletives) tried to circumvent the system, for what I am sure were the best of intentions {sarcasm} to make sure their good/bad guys won/lost their seats. One more reason I love my country, but am not so fond of some the %$#^$&%*s running it.
I will continue to oppose most of our president's policies because I really do think they are bad for the country, the world and for Americans as a people, not as a knee-jerk response because I'm bitter over the election.

OK, I left myself rather open there - unfortunately, I expect mostly cheap shots in return.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Friday, March 11, 2005 2:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:
AURaptor wrote:
Quote:
That's right. He had to cheat. Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

I guess I'm "hilarious" too, AURaptor - seems we were getting our news from different sources. From what I've seen and read (a few months back now) things were pretty well even in the "let's disenfranchise voters" contest. @#&^%$ Democrats and ^#$%#$@ Republicans (choose your own expletives) tried to circumvent the system, for what I am sure were the best of intentions {sarcasm} to make sure their good/bad guys won/lost their seats. One more reason I love my country, but am not so fond of some the %$#^$&%*s running it.
I will continue to oppose most of our president's policies because I really do think they are bad for the country, the world and for Americans as a people, not as a knee-jerk response because I'm bitter over the election.

OK, I left myself rather open there - unfortunately, I expect mostly cheap shots in return.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

There is some agreement from me in what you post. Not much, but some. No cheap shots here.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 11, 2005 2:33 PM

Quote:
I find such columns and post as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box

and this is why its so sad, because this is all you can see you really think its about Sour grapes for the Democrates losing!!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 2:39 PM

Double post.

Yeah. This never happened.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 2:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- Actually, there are a lot of non-lethal ways to improve our effectiveness. Why do you always jump to extreme/irrelevant examples?

Paint me skeptical.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
For example, what would be so horrible about requiring better automotive fleet efficiency? We'd reduce oil demand, and be in a better bargaining position vis a vis oil suppliers.

Nothing at all. I’m all for it, but since it’s already been done. It would seem somewhat moot.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Then, there is the Federal deficit brought about by the tax cut. As ideologically attractive as that tax cut was, it was fiscally irresponsible.

Debatable. That has yet to be seen. I’m inclined to believe that less tax burden means a stronger economy. I would think a strong economy would certainly be fiscally responsible.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Furthermore, judicious modification to our incorporation, trade, and tax laws would place all businesses on a more even playing field and ensure that they pay at least a minimum tax, which is a fair price for the protection that they receive from our Armed Forces overseas.

Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And speaking of Armed Forces- why are we still blowing billions on a Star Wars-type "nuclear shield"? The damn thing hasn't worked on 19 out of 20 tries, and has already been thwarted by the development of a guided "ballistic missile".

I’m not entirely sure your information here is completely accurate. But to respond to your question, I should think your premise for starting this thread should be enough reason. Is there something about stopping incoming Chinese ICBMs before impact on our cities that you don’t see as a good thing?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
At this point, I really don't feel like debating stupid points with you, either, since you are so ideologically stuck that your "world view" is pretty much limited to the world in your head. I'm sure it's much simpler in there.

If what you’re looking for is affirmation of Postmodern Liberals views, then you are likely to be disappointed by my opinion. I’m a capitalist. I believe corporations should be owned and run with as little input from the government as possible. Unlike many of my Right-wing brethren, I don’t necessarily support realpolitick so I’m not inclined to think that American economic interest should necessarily dictate foreign policy, but at the same time, I’m not naïve like many of my Left-wing brethren, who think that one can divorce the corporate power from state power. (Oddly though, in practice generally right the opposite occurs.) The power of a state is always going to be inexorably linked to the power of its economy.

Can you really fault me for being skeptical? Do you really think that what you have presented here is a solution? I don’t have all the answers either, but I think it is a little more complicated then you seem to be making it. In the mean time, I don’t want to be wiped out by Communist China while we sit and ponder idealistic anti-corporation philosophies. I’m really not big on Chinese food. It’s the sesame seeds. Three hours later I’m still picking them out of my teeth.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 3:00 PM

Quote:
Mmm..OK. We seem to be back to the idea that insults actually count as real arguments. Again, that's the PirateJenny mode of political discussions.

would you please stop throwing my name out, I never insulted anyone as I recall, I was constantly being insulted,and by you most of all so give it up!!

and you don't have to respond to this post , why don't you just stay on topic of this thread because I don't want it turning as petty as the other one!!!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 3:15 PM

Quote:
. I think he could care less about how low the dollar will go since that will make it possible to pay off the debt in worthless currency. Of course that will also mean that the US standard of living will fall like a rock

This was part of my reasoning in the other tread about the soft dollar and why Bush would want to funnel a steady flow of money from social security into the stock-market...but I digress

Of course no matter the Euro is going to be the dominate currency wether that happens sooner or later its going to happen, and yes our standard of living will fall dramatically, Bush doesn't care because his standard of living won't be effected!!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 3:21 PM

Quote:
Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed.

you only bring up one side of that issue, those corporations flee America set up shop in some other country, but still do Business with America, they don't wantto pay American taxes or pay a decent wage to workers but they want and are allowed to take our money while taking our jobs

you well know a a country's econmic power is part of its power, the economic policy for this country is make us weak...

If these businesses want to flee the country fine, but they should still be taxed so it wouldn't be so lucrative for them to do it!!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
you only bring up oneside of that, those corporation flee America set up shop in some other country, but still do Business with America, they don't want American taxes or pay a decent wage to workers but they want and are allowed to take our money while taking our jobs

If these businesses want to flee the country fine, but they should still be taxed so it wouldn't be so lucrative for them to do it!!

That’s some tricky business. Import tariffs on formally American businesses to punish business for not wanting to pay high taxes. That’s a little like strong-arming, isn’t it? Don’t you think that maybe these import tariffs will just be passed onto the consumer? Resulting in less fun for everyone.

But setting that aside, don’t you think you’re dodging the issue? We might solve the problem by considering reducing the taxes to be a little more competitive, maybe? Work with corporation for the good of all, instead of strong-arming them into raising their prices.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

"Nothing at all. I’m all for it, but since it’s already been done. It would seem somewhat moot."

The last change in CAFE standards was back in 1991. But efficiency can be increased substantially- it's technically feasible and doesn't even require anyhting fancy like hybrids.
www.aceee.org/energy/cafe.htm

"Debatable. That has yet to be seen. I’m inclined to believe that less tax burden means a stronger economy. I would think a strong economy would certainly be fiscally responsible."
How long do we have to wait for the Bush doctrine to take effect? Reagan tried trickle-down in 1981 and it had the same effect- massive deficits. Apparently you don't learn from history.

"Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed."

Some have argued... well, some are stupid. The whole discussion would take too long for this thread.

"I’m not entirely sure your information here is completely accurate."
My information is entirely accurate. Take a peek at the real world once in a while and inform yourself.

"But to respond to your question, I should think your premise for starting this thread should be enough reason. Is there something about stopping incoming Chinese ICBMs before impact on our cities that you don’t see as a good thing?"
We WERE talking about effectiveness, right?? Apparently, you see nothing wrong about spending billions on system that DOESN'T WORK. How is that effective?

"I’m a capitalist."

You know nothing about capitalism. Have you read "Wealth of Nations?" Doubtful.

"I believe corporations should be owned and run with as little input from the government as possible."

Yes, I know- you believe. But I already know that you're an ideologue, so you're not telling me anything new- or making much of a case for your beliefs.

So given all that, I really see no more need to reply to your statements of belief. I may respond when you talk about something real.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Some have argued... well, some are stupid. The whole discussion would take too long for this thread.

Openmindness. That’s what I like about you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
We WERE talking about effectiveness, right?? Apparently, you see nothing wrong about spending billions on system that DOESN'T WORK. How is that effective?

So you’re in favor of putting a stop to AIDS research?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know nothing about capitalism. Have you read "Wealth of Nations?" Doubtful.

Would it make a difference if I said I had read it? You seem to have pretty much made up your mind. Not only have I read Smith’s work, but I’ve also read some of Keynes' work.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So given all that, I really see no more need to reply to your statements

Do you promise?

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:31 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Auraptor: I find such columns and post (sic) as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box.

Auraptor, do you have ANYTHING to say about the state of the US economy? Just wondering when you're going to join the discussion instead of trying to hijack the thread.

For what it's worth, I got my info about China's 'string of pearls' from AsiaTimes Online. If you don't know what that is, perhaps you should google it.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jenny, there are other ways to tackle the "race to the bottom" problem, and one way is to change trade laws. To do that, we have to take a long step back from the system as it currently operates, and examine the fundamental ASSUMPTIONS AND BELIEFS on which the system is based in order to see if they're working.

But before we get to fundamental changes, we should look at short-term solutions. One short-term problem is American debt, which is dragging down the currency and may be close to creating a currency panic. The Federal deficit is basically an easy fix, if you're not ideological. Reverse the tax cut on the wealthy. Cut programs (like Star Wars because you lose nothing. Negotiate better drug prices for the Medicare drug progam. I think solving the deficit is quite do-able, and really wouldn't involve sacrifice on the part of the average person. It would be interesting to pencil-whip some of these figures to see how they come out.

The trade deficit is a more stubborn problem, because it's been caused by corporations moving overseas for cheap labor as well as by increasingly expensive imports of oil. We can actually deal with the oil part of the equation pretty handily on a short-term basis by simply focusing on automotive fuel economy since 40% of our oil goes to gasoline. Oops... time's up!

What do YOU think we can/ should do?

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:43 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I agree with the opinion that one of the things keeping the US solvent is that foreign countries don't want to start a run on the currency. That they are afraid that in the stampede to get in line, no one will be paid.

I know how to invest in the Euro, but they are not isolated enough from US economic perturbation for me. Anyone know how to invest in the yuan?

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:45 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Need to do a bit of research before I get into this, but here's a little more of Michael Lind's writings, to put his comments in context.

http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=Publications&contactID=57

It's always good to see where folk are coming from.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, March 11, 2005 10:19 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So Geezer, where do you keep your money? Foreign currency? Overseas stocks? I'm just wondering if you walk the talk.

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 3:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Nothing says it like a chart (showing trade deficit)

www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/2003/curracctab.htm

Here's one showing the Federal deficit (surplus under Clinton)

www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/2003/deftab.htm

Detail (by the WTO) of the US balance of trade by sector, showing a 1.4% (of world trade) increase in ores and fuel export and a 2.5% decrease in clothing and machinery exports, coupled with a 5.0% (of world trade) increase in fuel imports, a 3.3% increase in FOOD imports and a 5.1% increase in imports of clothing.
www.finfacts.ie/Private/globe_l/wto.htm

Google is your friend.

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 6:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So Geezer, where do you keep your money? Foreign currency? Overseas stocks? I'm just wondering if you walk the talk.

I've converted most of it into the guns, ammo, and freeze-dried food stashed out in the bunker.

Mostly in regular old savings and real estate (an almost paid off mortgage). Even have some U.S. Savings Bonds. We tend to be relatively frugal in the Geezer household, stay out of debt, and save - lessons learned from parents who experienced the Great Depression.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 9:46 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Thanks SignyM.

Geezer, I was under the impression that "owner occupied homes" were the single largest individual investment, for those who can aford them. But with a little googling, I found those who say it's actually retirement monies. Which, for non-gvt employees, means SS across the board. If I recall correctly, you work in the federal system. What does that make your retirement?

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 5:43 PM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I've converted most of it into the guns, ammo, and freeze-dried food stashed out in the bunker.

"...We're advising all of our clients to invest in canned food and shotguns."

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:17 AM

CAPNRAHN

{Note: Not on Topic - exactly}

Hardware: Excellent and appropriate "Gremlins 2" ref!

{We return you to your regularly schedualed debate}

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Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:30 AM