REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border

POSTED BY: SGTGUMP
UPDATED: Thursday, April 7, 2005 22:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1744
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:04 PM

SGTGUMP


'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border
Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) - Intent on securing the vulnerable Arizona border from illegal immigrant crossings, U.S. officials are bracing for what they call a potential new threat this spring: the Minutemen. Nearly 500 volunteers have already joined the Minuteman Project, anointing themselves civilian border patrol agents determined to stop the immigration flow that routinely, and easily, seeps past federal authorities.
They plan to patrol a 40-mile stretch of the southeast Arizona border throughout April when the tide of immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border peaks.

``I felt the only way to get something done was to do it yourself,'' said Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and decorated Vietnam War veteran who is helping recruit Minutemen across the country.

``We've been repeatedly accused of being people who are taking the law into our own hands,'' said Gilchrist, 56, of Aliso Viejo, Calif. ``That is an outright bogus statement. We are going down there to assist law enforcement.''

Officials concede the 370-mile Arizona border is the most porous stretch on the U.S.-Mexico line. Moreover, recent intelligence show that al-Qaida terrorists are likely to enter the country through the Mexico border, James Loy, the deputy secretary of the Homeland Security Department, said last week.

``Several al-Qaida leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico, and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons,'' Loy said in written testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the U.S. Border Patrol last year, 52 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border. The agency increased the number of agents in the Tucson sector, which has its largest staff, from 1,700 to 2,100 over the last 18 months.

But that number is going to grow to try to plug the remaining holes, said Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert C. Bonner. About 10,000 federal agents now patrol the 2,000-mile southern border, he said.

Officials fear the Minuteman patrols could cause more trouble than they prevent. At least some of the volunteers plan to arm themselves during the 24-hour desert patrols. Many are untrained and have little or no experience in confronting illegal border crossings.

``Any time there are firearms and you're out in the middle of no-man's land in difficult terrain, it's a dangerous setting,'' said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

``The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation,'' he said. ``Ordinary Americans are not. So there's a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation.''

Civilian patrols are nothing new along the southern border, where crossing the international line is sometimes as easy as stepping over a few rusty strands of barbed wire. But they usually are limited to small, informal groups, leaving organizers to believe the Minuteman Project is the largest of its kind on the southern border.

It may also prove to be a magnet for what Glenn Spencer, president of the private American Border Patrol, described as camouflage-wearing, weapons-toting hard-liners who might get a little carried away with their assignments.

``How are they going to keep the nutcases out of there? They can't control that,'' said Spencer, whose 40-volunteer group, based in Hereford, Ariz., has used unmanned aerial vehicles and other high-tech equipment to track and report the number of border crossings for more than two years.

``There's a storm gathering here on the border, and there are conditions ripe for some difficulty,'' he said.

The border agents agree.

The Minutemen ``clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them,'' said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.

But ``if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance,'' he said.

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there's a couple of ``bad apples'' who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

Something dramatic needed to be done to curb the years of crime, property damage and trash dumping caused by the border crossings, Gilchrist said.

``Things are out of control'' he said. ``And they've been out of control for decades.''




I think it's a good idea, kind of like volunteer fire departments. What do you guys think?







NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:46 PM

JASONZZZ



I think we should set up a 100 yd of DMZ there and mine the f!#k out of it.

Then watch the fire works.





Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 11:12 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by sgtgump:
I think it's a good idea, kind of like volunteer fire departments. What do you guys think?


My main concern is that this is a gigantic clusterfuck waiting to happen. I just hope that no one gets seriously hurt.

Michael Marizco of the Arizona Daily Star has done a few articles on this over the past month and some things popped out at me (the links are all registration required - I'll post them but you have to use bugmenot.com or register to read).

The first is the sheer volume of people coming across the border, "Last year, an Arizona Daily Star compilation of Mexican consulate and Arizona county medical examiner records documented 191 illegal-entrant deaths in the Tucson Sector, from Oct. 1, 2003, to Sept. 30, 2004. Agents in the Tucson Sector apprehended about 491,000 people in the same time period." (from "500 more agents on the way to border" 30 March 2005 http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB-20050330-dsbp-borderpat
rol.18bd8a883.html
).

The second is that this is pretty harsh terrain. You get a lot of untrained people out there stumbling around in the desert. That's just a recipe for unpleasantness.

The third is that the locals are already pretty pissed. You get a bunch of people tramping over your property, led by a guy from a pretty ritzy California suburb, and tempers could flare.

The fourth is that there are some highly unsavory characters doing human, drug, and weapon smuggling across the border. Why someone would want to walk into the middle of that without all the logistical support and training that Border Patrol agents have is beyond me.

I guess my response would be that, if people feel compelled, they should just try to get a job working with the Border Patrol.

If you're interested:
"Minutemen won't be the only ones watching" by Natalie Tejeda 30 March 2005 http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB_2005_0329_nt_minutemanp
review.18935a9c2.html

"Minutemen appear to be restyling campaign along Mexican border" by Michael Marizco 20 March 2005 http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/032005ccjrkmsbminutemen.15b1
f2129.html

"Border-watch group: All talk?" by Michael Marizco 22 February 2005 http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB-20050222-dsbp-minutemen
.d252ca45.html


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:46 PM

JASONZZZ



These guys alos have a couple of single engine airplanes they are planning on deploying. I guess they have enough folks donating money for the gas and maintenance.





Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It is truly an economic problem that could be solved if companies in the US wouldn't hire illegals at dirt-cheap wages. Germany has a lot of immigration, too- mainly from Turkey and Eastern Europe- but they also have high wages that are strictly enforced by unions. You would think that high wages would be an incentive for ppl to come into Germany, but it actualy works in reverse: corporations have no interest hiring third-world skills for first-world wages.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 31, 2005 6:04 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

I think it's a good idea, kind of like volunteer fire departments. What do you guys think?
I just don't see that there's an appropriate level of coordination.
My cousin was a Border Patrol agent on the southern border for around 10 years. I got a fuzzy picture of what his job was like, and a starting point for what I imagine now: any combination of agents, minutement, drug smugglers, and illegals in the area, at night, with everybody sneaking around, everybody wired-up and at least a few people with guns. It could be like one of those Italian opera farces, where people hide behind curtains, duck into closets, bump into each other out on the same balcony ..., except without the comedy.
I do hope nobody actually encounters anybody else.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:17 PM

JASONZZZ



Yeah, there are also "aid workers" out there as well. I think some of them call themselves "Angels of the desert" or some such. Handing out water and blankets to the illegal crossers.


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

I think it's a good idea, kind of like volunteer fire departments. What do you guys think?
I just don't see that there's an appropriate level of coordination.
My cousin was a Border Patrol agent on the southern border for around 10 years. I got a fuzzy picture of what his job was like, and a starting point for what I imagine now: any combination of agents, minutement, drug smugglers, and illegals in the area, at night, with everybody sneaking around, everybody wired-up and at least a few people with guns. It could be like one of those Italian opera farces, where people hide behind curtains, duck into closets, bump into each other out on the same balcony ..., except without the comedy.
I do hope nobody actually encounters anybody else.





Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 1, 2005 7:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

These guys alos have a couple of single engine airplanes they are planning on deploying. I guess they have enough folks donating money for the gas and maintenance.



16 private planes and over 1,000 volunteers, most ex-military...these guys seem to be doing better the the Federal Govt which is huffing and puffing just to get 500 half trained border rangers and a couple surplus Blackhawks down there.

I'd go, but I hate the desert. If we ever need to secure the Canadian Border...I'm there, in the summer at least.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 11:30 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Just an update on this story.

I guess 15% turnout is better than 0% turnout. But when you're outnumbered by the press...

Quote:

excerpted from http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/68578.php
TOMBSTONE - Only a fraction of the promised 1,000 Minuteman volunteers showed up here Friday for the start of their month-long protest of the federal government's inability to control the U.S.-Mexican border.

In a crowd of more than 150 reporters, photographers and camera crews, about 150 Minuteman volunteers registered for the project, photos of the event show. Reports were wildly scattered, with the Associated Press reporting 100 while CNN reported hundreds.



* Hat tip to David Neiwert for the link

---------------------
Next up: Early "Nutcrusher" Jubal and the Firebuggers

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 7, 2005 3:23 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Just an update on this story.

I guess 15% turnout is better than 0% turnout. But when you're outnumbered by the press...

Quote:

excerpted from http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/68578.php
TOMBSTONE - Only a fraction of the promised 1,000 Minuteman volunteers showed up here Friday for the start of their month-long protest of the federal government's inability to control the U.S.-Mexican border.

In a crowd of more than 150 reporters, photographers and camera crews, about 150 Minuteman volunteers registered for the project, photos of the event show. Reports were wildly scattered, with the Associated Press reporting 100 while CNN reported hundreds.





I read the the 1,000 volunteer figure was spread out over the whole month. I know a local cop not scheduled to leave till his vacation starts next week.

Mexican Gang leaders and smugglers are calling border crossing in the region "impossible" under the present circumstances.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 7, 2005 10:42 PM

SOUPCATCHER


I hope the local cop you know has a safe vacation.

Looks like the Mexican authorities are temporarily stepping up efforts on their side of the border in an effort to lower the potential for problems (from "Minutemen find few migrants: Police in Mexico discouraging illegal crossings" Arizona Daily Star 04-05-05).
Quote:

excerpted from http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/68940.php
...
Eager to avoid confrontations between volunteers and its people, Mexico is sweeping the area south of the Minuteman Project clear of migrants.

Gov. Eduardo Bours Castelo has placed 44 members of the new state police force across the border at La Morita, a cattle ranch that leads directly to the border south of Bisbee, said Diego Padilla the governor's Arizona representative.

The state police are working with Grupo Beta, Mexico's migrant protection force, which is plucking migrants out of the desert and depositing them in nearby Agua Prieta, where they are encouraged to wait before trying to cross.

"We are very crude with them; we tell them they may be shot, that there's rancheros out to stop them and hurt them," said Enrique Enriques Palafox, a Grupo Beta commander in Agua Prieta. The point is to terrify the migrants from the area so they won't cross illegally and encounter Minuteman volunteers, he said.
...


So far, fortunately, no one has been shot. But one man got himself food, water, twenty dollars and a T-shirt - at least the people he ran into didn't brand him or take an ear as a trophy. (from "Video clears 3 Minutemen" Arizona Daily Star 04-08-05). Pretty funny unless you're the one holding the T-shirt. Although it sounds like the man would make an ideal American - his first response was to file a complaint. We should make him a citizen for that action alone.
Quote:

excerpted from http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/69461.php
...
On Wednesday afternoon, Bryan Barton, 24, and two other volunteers, found an illegal entrant on Arizona 92 near Palominas, said Carol Capas, a spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.

The men videotaped the encounter, which showed the volunteers approaching the man, giving him food and water and calling Border Patrol to pick up the entrant.

In addition, Barton gave the man $20 and a T-shirt that read "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
...


It's nice to laugh and everything but I think there's some real potential for violence. Especially when a known hate group was trying to piggyback on this event - sounds like it was without knowledge of the organizers. (from "Minutemen gather in Tombstone for kickoff of civilian border watch" Tucson Citizen 04-01-05). But I find it interesting that Simcox's first reaction was to blame someone for planting the fliers. Eerily reminiscent of the Mel Martinez Schiavo talking-points document that many were claiming was a Democrat fake (hint - it's legit).
Quote:

excerpted from http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/040105minute.php
...
But some residents worry. "I feel like the rest of the country thinks we're a bunch of gun-toting rednecks ready to shoot Mexicans," said Dixie Van Asch, who rents rooms at the Tucson Motel. Van Asch questions the economic impact the project will have on the community, which annually draws up to 500,000 tourists. And she worries about the type of people the project has attracted.

Last Sunday morning, she walked out of her house to find a plastic bag weighted down with rocks. Inside, she found an anti-immigrant flier from the National Alliance, considered one of the country's largest white supremacy organizations.

The fliers also showed up in Douglas, Nogales, and Bisbee.

Chris Simcox, the editor of a local newspaper and a project organizer, has refuted any link between the Minutemen and white supremacists or any other racist organizations. Simcox has accused Douglas Mayor Ray Borane, a frequent critic, of distributing the fliers in an attempt to smear the project.

"I wonder what he's smoking," the mayor replied. "He has no idea the kinds of people they're going to be attracting."

National Alliance chairman Erich Gliebe, who refers to the group as "white separatist," confirmed that local members of the group distributed the fliers in an attempt to build on the efforts of the Minuteman Project. Reached by phone in West Virginia, he said he didn't know if they would participate in the project.

"We have found that a lot of people in the area are sympathetic to our message, but won't admit it," Gliebe said.


My own thoughts on the whole thing are similar to Signym's: If you really want to do something about illegal immigration you have to crack down on the people who are hiring illegal immigrants. The following op-ed nicely makes the point that the Minutemen really should be showing up at corporate headquarters to protest (from "Opinion by Ernesto Portillo Jr.: Minutemen picked the wrong target" Arizona Daily Star 04-02-05).
Quote:

excerpted from http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/68547.php
...
But what the creators of the dog and pony show don't get is that they picked the wrong place to make their media-manipulated tirade. If the Minutemen really wanted to bring public awareness to the causes of illegal immigration, they would have flocked to different places, far away from the border towns of Naco and Douglas and the desert in between.

They should have taken their weapons and self-serving protest to the Arkansas headquarters of Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

The world's largest retailer, which influences marketing and labor practices wherever it operates, paid a record $11 million fine last month to settle a civil immigration case. The federal government charged the global behemoth and 12 contractors with hiring illegal workers to clean 60 stores in 21 states.

The contractors that did the hiring pleaded guilty to criminal charges and paid an additional $4 million.
...



* hat tip to David Neiwert for one of the links

---------------------
Next up: Early "Nutcrusher" Jubal and the Firebuggers

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Oops! Clown Justin Trudeau accidently "Sieg Heils!" a Nazi inside Canadian parliament
Mon, November 25, 2024 01:24 - 4 posts
Stupid voters enable broken government
Mon, November 25, 2024 01:04 - 130 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Mon, November 25, 2024 00:09 - 7499 posts
The predictions thread
Mon, November 25, 2024 00:02 - 1190 posts
Netanyahu to Putin: Iran must withdraw from Syria or Israel will ‘defend itself’
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:56 - 16 posts
Putin's Russia
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:51 - 69 posts
The Olive Branch (Or... a proposed Reboot)
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:44 - 4 posts
Musk Announces Plan To Buy MSNBC And Turn It Into A News Network
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:39 - 2 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:35 - 4763 posts
Punishing Russia With Sanctions
Sun, November 24, 2024 18:05 - 565 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Sun, November 24, 2024 18:01 - 953 posts
Elections; 2024
Sun, November 24, 2024 16:24 - 4799 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL