Anyone else getting creeped out by these 'death watches' ?? by AURaptor

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Anyone else getting creeped out by these 'death watches' ??

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 6, 2005 02:38
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Saturday, April 2, 2005 3:20 AM

America loves a winner!

I understand, particularly w/ the Pope, the significance involved. While I'm not Catholic, Pope John-Paul II served his position with a spirit and sense of humanity which was so needed for these times. I'm not in the least bothered by the praise or accolades awarded to the Pope, but is this media circus-death watch really a respectful way to see him leave this world ?

Also, I really don't see the point to try to connect this man's passing to that of Terri Shiavo's. He is in his 80's, and up untill a couple of days ago, was still doing the business of the HRCC, being Pope. There also is so much invovled w/ the life/death of a Pope, in regards to the internal political structure of the HRCC, that would probably require an entire different thread.

I suppose that this sort of thing is inevitable, but because we where just force fed this whole Terri Shiavo killing by the courts, it's a bit much to see all over again.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 2, 2005 3:50 AM

CONNORFLYNN

I agree completely. I've stopped watching TV almost entirely. I find it almost impossible to not get depressed. I was a news nut. Not anymore.

I was angry when I saw the whacko "What would Jesus Do?" bible thumpers get involved with Terri's case, because they tainted her cause imho. I was angry that they ( the courts ) allowed an adulterous husband, who refused his wife ANY rehab over the last decade including swallowing and tried to kill her several times by refusing to have her treated for infections and what not, to make life and death decisions over the wishes of her FLESH AND BLOOD family, even though no money was coming out of his own pocket. I have now dubbed Michael Schiavo "GWB Jr." the god of hiding the truth behind lies (Still no answer on why he wants to Cremate his wife). I was angry that the 2 political parties in power politicized her situation. Oh well..I guess it's just standard operating procedures, they don't work for us...they work for their own private interests.

News in general is no longer informative, it's downright jaded propaganda for one nightmare party or the other. I'm working on moving to a rural community where cable isn't offered, to wait for Global warming to melt all the icecaps and wash San Fran and NYC and the Florida Panhandle into the oceans respectively (Then again that would be alot of Crap polluting the water and the Eco-Nazis would be up in arms even more then they are now).

I just wish ONCE IN A BLUE MOON that they (anybody) would cover something uplifting.

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Saturday, April 2, 2005 4:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
News in general is no longer informative, it's downright jaded propaganda for one nightmare party or the other.

Ya got that one right. I cringe every time I flip through the channels and they're all using the same catch phrases, the same lingo....it doesn't matter which version you watch, it all seems to be written from the same place. Not a conspiracy nut, but I'm more likely to believe that the media are just part of the same Old Boy's club, and they could care less about informing the public but are more interested in getting that $$ shot or being *1st* to report.......

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 2, 2005 4:59 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
is this media circus-death watch really a respectful way to see him leave this world ?

word

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Saturday, April 2, 2005 10:12 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

The seemingly failing condition of the Pope occurring so quickly following Mrs. Schiavo death is a coincidence. And the media always follows just about every move the Pope makes, so their response to his condition is nothing that I would consider unexpected. The death of a Pope has always been a circus. Before world wide media coverage it was largely limited to Rome, but even then it was not unusual for thousands of people to converge on the Vatican to wait the Popes final hours. The two events together dominating the media are becoming exhaustive. I’ll say that.

I don’t think that it makes sense to draw a direct connection between the Pope’s current condition and the Schiavo case. If for no other reason then because the Pope seems to have been quite lucid when he expressed his wishes to be left where he is. Despite claims to the contrary such expressed wishes were exactly what was missing from the Schiavo case. That makes the two completely different.

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Monday, April 4, 2005 5:20 AM

KNIBBLET

What pisses me off is those who keep accusing Michael Shaivo of abusing or neglecting his wife.

The first time Jeb Bush stuck his nose into a private matter, he appointed Jay Wolfson, (professor at the University of South Florida, a PhD in public health who also has a law degree), to be Terri's guardian and investigate the case.

Dr. Wolfson reported that Michael was taking wonderful care of Terri and it came to light that the Hospice had tried to get a restraining order against Michael BECAUSE HE WAS TOO DEMANDING MORE AND BETTER CARE FOR HIS WIFE.

What made Terri Michael's wife died 15 years ago. Her body remained - not what made her his wife.

Michael has requested an autopsy - if he'd somehow abused his wife or if the doctors are incorrect as to Terri's medical condition (i.e., having a bag of fluid in place of a cerebral cortex), than he'd be placing his head in the lion's mouth that is our legal system.

As for who is taking or spending money - the Shindlers have been funded by the Right to Lifers. $20,000 per legal action with over 35 actions. Lawyer's fee where the sharks in question charge $500 per hour. In all MILLIONS of dollars in legal fees. The Shindlers have been shills for the "I'll tell you how to live and breathe" crowd.

I don't wish them ill, rather I wish them peace. They lost their daughter 15 years ago - they just couldn't live with that fact and preferred to believe that she'd come back from the dead.

I wish them all peace. Most of all, I pray that Terri is finally at peace.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I was angry that they ( the courts ) allowed an adulterous husband, who refused his wife ANY rehab over the last decade including swallowing and tried to kill her several times by refusing to have her treated for infections and what not, to make life and death decisions over the wishes of her FLESH AND BLOOD family, even though no money was coming out of his own pocket. I have now dubbed Michael Schiavo "GWB Jr." the god of hiding the truth behind lies (Still no answer on why he wants to Cremate his wife).

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Monday, April 4, 2005 5:52 AM

CONNORFLYNN

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
What pisses me off is those who keep accusing Michael Shaivo of abusing or neglecting his wife.

The first time Jeb Bush stuck his nose into a private matter, he appointed Jay Wolfson, (professor at the University of South Florida, a PhD in public health who also has a law degree), to be Terri's guardian and investigate the case.

Dr. Wolfson reported that Michael was taking wonderful care of Terri and it came to light that the Hospice had tried to get a restraining order against Michael BECAUSE HE WAS TOO DEMANDING MORE AND BETTER CARE FOR HIS WIFE.

What made Terri Michael's wife died 15 years ago. Her body remained - not what made her his wife.

Michael has requested an autopsy - if he'd somehow abused his wife or if the doctors are incorrect as to Terri's medical condition (i.e., having a bag of fluid in place of a cerebral cortex), than he'd be placing his head in the lion's mouth that is our legal system.

As for who is taking or spending money - the Shindlers have been funded by the Right to Lifers. $20,000 per legal action with over 35 actions. Lawyer's fee where the sharks in question charge $500 per hour. In all MILLIONS of dollars in legal fees. The Shindlers have been shills for the "I'll tell you how to live and breathe" crowd.

I don't wish them ill, rather I wish them peace. They lost their daughter 15 years ago - they just couldn't live with that fact and preferred to believe that she'd come back from the dead.

I wish them all peace. Most of all, I pray that Terri is finally at peace.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I was angry that they ( the courts ) allowed an adulterous husband, who refused his wife ANY rehab over the last decade including swallowing and tried to kill her several times by refusing to have her treated for infections and what not, to make life and death decisions over the wishes of her FLESH AND BLOOD family, even though no money was coming out of his own pocket. I have now dubbed Michael Schiavo "GWB Jr." the god of hiding the truth behind lies (Still no answer on why he wants to Cremate his wife).

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

Believe what you want to believe Knibblet. The facts are he only wanted the "Best of Care" in the last few months because of the scrutiny he was under. The FACTS show that he was an asshole about her care, Remained an asshole up until her death and is still an asshole after her death. It's pretty goddamned strange that he wanted her cremated again against her family's wishes. It's pretty goddamned strange that he was ALLOWED to live with another woman and have 2 children , yet retain marital rights and priveleges.

Go back and read the records. The fact is Michael Schiavo was an adulterous ass, who more then likely DID abuse his wife , refused to allow her to be treated for an infection(until a stink was raised). It's amazing that someone who was treated for so well had to have a bunch of teeth removed due to decay.

I feel sorry only for Terri and her Blood relatives. The rest deserve the special hell the hopefully will see.

As for the parents and affiliations and how they paid for their lawyers..I would do the same damn thing if some whackjob was trying to kill my kid, regardless of where it was coming from.

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Monday, April 4, 2005 6:09 AM

XENOCIDE

Quote:
The FACTS show that he was an asshole about her care, Remained an asshole up until her death and is still an asshole after her death

You keep saying this. I keep reading otherwise. Cite something.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
http://www.bcpl.net/~wilsonr/farpoint.html

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Monday, April 4, 2005 7:12 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
but is this media circus-death watch really a respectful way to see him leave this world ?

My problem is that after several days of listening to everyone say good things about him before he died, now that he's dead, everything's already been said. I think they would have been better served saving a few of the 'Pope was great' stories for after his passing. Although, I admit, I generally appreciated the coverage as a whole.

I am especially pleased the successor speculation was kept to a minimum during the final days and hours and even in the immediate aftermath. After the continuous election cycle America has been in for the last decade, its nice to see the media hold off on the political side of things.

I'm all for the Conclave, but we have a funeral to get through first. Everybody will be there, I'm a bit concerned about security.

H

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Monday, April 4, 2005 7:46 AM

CONNORFLYNN

Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
Quote:
The FACTS show that he was an asshole about her care, Remained an asshole up until her death and is still an asshole after her death

You keep saying this. I keep reading otherwise. Cite something.

-Eli

These were taken directly from the Schiavo Family website..take them as you will. I'll see if I can dredge up the actual court documents whne I have some free time. I've googled several of these items in the past and have found them to be without falsehood.
------------------------------------------------
November 1992
Opening Statements, Medical Malpractice Trial

You'll find from the evidence past medical bills and lost earnings are in the neighborhood of $500,000, and to care for her in the future and compensate her for lost earnings, obviously, she cannot work. And if she lives a normal life expectancy, fifty-one years, and the cost of that, depending on whether or not in an institution or Mike takes her home is between 12 and 16 million dollars. They say, well, she doesn't have a normal life expectancy. You'll hear if she receives proper treatment, there's no reason why she shouldn't. And she is not just a head on a pillow. She can't respond much but she can respond, and she does respond a little bit, not much. But enough to give him hope.

-------------------------------------------------
November 1992
Testimony of Michael Schiavo, Medical Malpractice Trial

Q. Why did you want to learn to be a nurse?
MS. Because I enjoy it and I want to learn more how to take care of Terri.

Q. You're a young man. Your life is ahead of you. When you look up the road, what do you see for yourself?
MS. I see myself hopefully finishing school and taking care of my wife.

Q. Where do you want to take care of your wife?
MS. I want to bring her home.

Q. If you had the resources available to you, if you had the equipment and the people, would you do that?
MS. Yes, I would, in a heartbeat.

Q. How do you feel about being married to Terri now.
MS. I feel wonderful. She's my life and I wouldn't trade her for the world. I believe in my marriage vows.

Q. You believe in your wedding vows, what do you mean by that?
MS. I believe in the vows I took with my wife, through sickness, in health, for richer or poor. I married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that.

(Note: In January of 1993, a jury awarded Michael $350,000 for loss of consortium, and $750,000 went into a medical trust for all of Terri's future rehabilitative care, which was based on the testimony of Michael stating that he wanted to care for Terri for the rest of his life. If Terri should die, Michael would inherit the balance of the trust fund. Not only did Mr. Schiavo not provide Terri with rehabilitation, he has denied his wife any and all therapy, against Doctors' recommendations, since the 1993 malpractice award.)

November 1993
Michael Schiavo Deposition, Guardianship Hearing

Q. What was her bladder condition?
MS. She had a UTI.

Q. What is that?
MS. Urinary tract infection.

Q. What did the doctor tell you treatment for that would be?
MS. Antibiotic usually.

Q. And did he tell you what would occur if you failed to treat that infection? What did he tell you?
MS. That sometimes urinary tract infection will turn to sepsis.

Q. And sepsis is what?
MS. An infection throughout the body.

Q. And what would the result of untreated sepsis be to the patient?
MS. The patient would pass on.

Q. So when you made the decision not to treat Terri's bladder infection you, in effect, were making a decision to allow her to pass on?
MS. I was making a decision on what Terri would want.

Q. Had the bladder condition been treated?
MS. Yes.

Q. And was...what was the reason that the bladder condition was treated?
MS. Sable Palms Nursing Home said they could not do that by some Florida law which wasn't stated.

Q. But you didn't change your opinion or your decision to not treat the bladder condition?
MS. We did change it.

Q. Correct?
MS. Repeat the question.

Q. You did not change your decision not to treat the bladder condition, correct?
MS. I had to change my decision.

Q. Sable Palms changed it for you?
Attorney Nillson Objection

Q. Okay. Is there any reason that you would not make the same decision that you previously made if the problem came up again?
MS. Repeat your question. You're losing me here.

Q. Let me be more specific. If your wife developed another condition that could result in her death, is there any reason that you would not take the position that you're not going to treat that condition and you're going to instruct the doctor not to treat that condition?
MS. I wouldn't instruct anybody, no.

Q. You instructed the doctor not to treat the condition, correct?
Attorney Nillson Objection

Q. You did instruct the doctor not to treat her bladder condition, correct?
MS. Uh-huh. Yes.

Q. If a similar...would you do the same?
MS. I'm thinking.

Q. Take your time.
MS. I probably wouldn't instruct the doctor to do it.

Q. So you've changed your opinion?
MS. Sort of, yeah.

Q. Why have you changed your opinion?
MS. Because evidently there is a law out there that says I can't do it.

Q. Is that the only reason?
MS. Basically, maybe.

Q. What you're telling me is, is that there is nothing in your belief or feelings that have changed. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you perceive the law prevents you to do what you intended to do?
MS. Correct.

Q. What did you do with your wife's jewelry?
MS. My wife's jewelry?

Q. Yeah.
MS. Um, I think I took her engagement ring and her...what do they call it...diamond wedding band and made a ring for myself.

Q. What did you do with her cats?
MS. Her cats were put to sleep n the advice of my mother-in-law.
(Note: The veterinarian who performed the euthanasia of Terri's pets came forward to say there was never any suggestion from Terri's mother that this be done and only Mr. Schiavo's insistence.)

-----------------------------------------------

November 1993
Michael Schiavo Deposition, Guardianship Hearing

Q. And prior to that time, they (Terri's parents) had access to the medical records and they could talk to the physicians and the nursing home people about their daughter, correct?
MS. Correct.

Q. Okay. And after that period of time that changed, didn't it?
Attorney Nillson Objection

Q. Alright. After the altercation on February 14, 1993, the Schindlers were not allowed any information concerning their daughter's immediate condition, is that correct?
MS. The order was given not to give out any information to anybody but myself or the doctor.

Q. Okay. And what was...why was that order given?
MS. Because I figured that the nursing home was having problems, first off, with the certified nurses aids giving wrong information out over the phone, information to the family. And second of all, since my in-laws showed no care about showing up or calling me when Terri was in the hospital, I figured they didn't care.

Q. Explain that. The Schindlers showed no care about what?
MS. Terri being in the hospital in March.

Q. Are you saying that you didn't think they cared about their daughter at all?
MS. They never showed up.

Q. So the reason that they were not at the hospital because they were not at the hospital in March, you decided that they should not ever have any access to her medical records or medical treatment again?
MS. I agree.

Q. When you made the decision that you were not going to treat Terri's infection and you were going to, in effect, allow her to die, did you think that you had any obligations to tell her parents?
MS. To answer that question, I probably would have let them know sooner or later.

Q. You never did let them know, though, did you?
MS. No.

Q. When you say you would probably have let them know sooner or later, were you contemplating a certain time frame when you would let them know?
MS. I don't know what my thoughts were right then.

The website is www.Terrisfight.Org

A short article regarding suspected abuse:
http://www.earnedmedia.org/tf0211.htm

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Tuesday, April 5, 2005 4:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

When my dad died of pneumonia (secondary to Parkinson's), two days before he died they removed his antibiotics and his IV (fluids and nutrition). They kept his oxygen going (@15L by mask). This was in a Catholic hospital. The strange thing was that they were willing to hasten along his demise, but not willing to give him enough morphine to put him under (which he wanted, as he indicated by blinking). As the doctor said 'if I gave him extra morphine and he died a little while later, it would look bad.' So he died conscious and in distress.

We have some really perverse customs about medicine and death.

But I have to keep repeating the same issue. The decision to 'let someone go' - even someone who is mentally functional at the time of a medical crisis - comes down to witholding or withdrawing care. It might be a DNR, or a 'do not intubate' (one of the stupidest orders I've ever seen), or a 'comfort care only' order for people dying of cancer. But SOMEWHERE in the continuum of care, medical efforts get cut off. And it falls to somebody to decide.

You might quibble about the where and when, but you can't argue that it doesn't happen, or shouldn't happen. With our medical technology, it HAS to happen, and it happens all the time.

PS I was not in a legal position to do anything about the care my father did or did not receive, as I did not have medical proxy.

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Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:38 AM

CONNORFLYNN

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
When my dad died of pneumonia (secondary to Parkinson's), two days before he died they removed his antibiotics and his IV (fluids and nutrition). They kept his oxygen going (@15L by mask). This was in a Catholic hospital. The strange thing was that they were willing to hasten along his demise, but not willing to give him enough morphine to put him under (which he wanted, as he indicated by blinking). As the doctor said 'if I gave him extra morphine and he died a little while later, it would look bad.' So he died conscious and in distress.

We have some really perverse customs about medicine and death.

But I have to keep repeating the same issue. The decision to 'let someone go' - even someone who is mentally functional at the time of a medical crisis - comes down to witholding or withdrawing care. It might be a DNR, or a 'do not intubate' (one of the stupidest orders I've ever seen), or a 'comfort care only' order for people dying of cancer. But SOMEWHERE in the continuum of care, medical efforts get cut off. And it falls to somebody to decide.

You might quibble about the where and when, but you can't argue that it doesn't happen, or shouldn't happen. With our medical technology, it HAS to happen, and it happens all the time.

PS I was not in a legal position to do anything about the care my father did or did not receive, as I did not have medical proxy.

I've had 4 people in my family die slow painful deaths from cancer. My Grandmother who lived with me while she was sick, so I and my family could take care of her, was allergic to morphine, she had advanced bone cancer with approximately 13 inches of her spine completely disintegrated. She would moan and cry out for hours. It took approximately 2 months before she passed away at 56 years old. She begged me and my family to kill her several times. I'm a grown man and I cried like a baby because there wasn't anything I could do to help her. I'm an advocate for someone to have the right to choose to die. I'm an Advocate for Euthanasia , when someone requests to die with dignity.

However, I have a few issues with the Terri Schiavo case. *Note: I sided with Michael, until I did some research.

1) Michael Schiavo stated under oath that HE wanted to care for Terri the rest of her life. There was no mention in the Malpractice case or trial of her wishes "not to live that way". Quite the opposite.

2) Opening statements from that Malpractice trial state that Terri was there, just couldn't respond well. There were several doctors and nurses that came forward that claimed she could be helped. She was assessed as improving, before Michael removed her from Rehab. This is contrary to statements made shortly after Michael recieved his big payday.

3) Michael melted down her Engagement and wedding bands to make himself a ring , just a scant few months after the malpractice trial where he and Terri were awarded big dollars.

Q. What did you do with your wife's jewelry?
MS. My wife's jewelry?

Q. Yeah.
MS. Um, I think I took her engagement ring and her...what do they call it...diamond wedding band and made a ring for myself (Man thats a tough one, "What do they call it?").

My guess is he was about to go find himself a new girlfriend and lo and behold he did.

4) He didn't remain faithful to her in terms of marriage and had 2 children out of wedlock,(If we, the US, are going to be shits about maintaining the sanctity of marriage, then Michael clearly violated that rule and the judge didn't blink an eye at it. The hypocrisy of our system kills me.).

5) Terri didn't have a living will. She wasn't suffering. She had a family who wanted to care for her and get her rehabilitation for the rest of her life. This is HUGE in my opinion. You don't just give up on someone if there is even the remote possibility that they can be helped, IF they aren't suffering.

6) Because Michael obviously has some serious marital issues and is quite obviously a liar (based on his testimony and other contradictory statements), he shouldn't have been allowed to make a life or death decision for Terri over the wishes of her BLOOD relatives, based on hearsay on his part.

I have no issue with someone wanting to die with dignity. I have no issue with DNRs or other Written or verbal directives regarding such things. I have issue with someones life hanging in the balance because of hearsay from someone who, after reading his testimony is a real snake and NOT a faithful husband. In my opinion , I still say he's hiding something.

Our government got involved in the wrong way. The Right to Lifers have essentially screwed everyone over. We need to either ALLOW Euthanasia or NOT Allow Removal from Life Support. (I'm for Allowing Euthanasia UNDER STRICT GUIDELINES- insurance companies can't be the ones to make that decision), This whole thing about making someone "suffer until they die" bullshit is wrong.

Finally, I agree with you Rue. When and if the time comes, someone will need to make a decision regarding whether Lifesupport should be continued. Hopefully the person making the decision is sane and doesn't have other reasons for knocking someone off.

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