War crimes in Afghanistan by Daikath

No, but the speech in the video on the timeframes I mentioned are in english done by US soldiers only translated into dutch through subtitles.

edit: You knew that but sorry, it was on a dutch current events show.

edit 2: I'll tranlate it tonight when I have the chance, it is mostly about the dutch involvement with it all though (and a reason for not participating would clearly be the violation of those said laws).

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:
No, but the speech in the video on the timeframes I mentioned are in english done by US soldiers only translated into dutch through subtitles.

edit: You knew that but sorry, it was on a dutch current events show.

edit 2: I'll tranlate it tonight when I have the chance, it is mostly about the dutch involvement with it all though (and a reason for not participating would clearly be the violation of those said laws).

Anyone documenting the War Crimes of the opposition? It drives me crazy to have the media continuosly chase a few instances of supposed war crimes by the coalition, yet stay quiet about the atrocities committed by the Taliban and company.

I wish these shitheels would stop going after the troops. War is hell.

Bleh.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:22 AM

Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a violation of our own rules we as a society made.

Just because the other side doesn't follow them doesn't mean we shouldt be civilised.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:49 AM

I don't disagree with you Daikath about whether or not War Crimes are wrong. What I disagree with is the bullshit propaganda and purposeful attempts to shed Our military in a negative light, while NOT shedding light on the other side.

If someone commits a war crime, they should be held accountable.

However, Pointing out everytime someone on OUR side commits a supposed "war crime" (while conveniently NOT pointing out the other sides atrocities) AND not pointing out everytime someone does something good is BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth. It is bullshit propaganda. It is inflammatory, negative and non-productive. It also tends to turn people off from listening to any REALLY productive discourse, because they see it for what it is.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:

purposeful attempts to shed Our military in a negative light

This isn't exactly hard. Your military admitts it as shown in the interview(s) therein. This is more a purposeful truth telling. If you don't like the content, then perhaps you should start to do something about getting your military to behave in a proper manner.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:

If someone commits a war crime, they should be held accountable.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:

However, Pointing out everytime someone on OUR side commits a supposed "war crime" (while conveniently NOT pointing out the other sides atrocities) AND not pointing out everytime someone does something good is BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth.

How is it a "BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth"?

This isn't something with spin on it. There are actual US soldiers admitting to things.

You'll never get the balance you seek in a news article or what-have-you. You need a full blown documentary. And even then you'll probably need two as both sides have so much content (actually probably a series of documentaries for both sides).

And from where I sit, everytime a bomb goes off or what-have-you in Iraq or Afganistan or ... it hits the news. There is your other side.

Just because they don't present it in every article doesn't mean that that balance doesn't exist. It's just elsewhere. That's called keeping the article on topic.

I could say (following your logic) that everytime a news story covers a suicide bombing or what-not that since the US's war crimes aren't being told in that story that it is a "BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth" and "bullshit propaganda".

But I don't because the balance is elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:

It is bullshit propaganda. It is inflammatory, negative and non-productive. It also tends to turn people off from listening to any REALLY productive discourse, because they see it for what it is.

And how is ignoring it productive?

While I lived in the US, since I couldn't work for visa reasons, I decided to compare the different news stations. I noticed that watching BBC World, which was a 1/2 hour program once a day on PBS, I got more information from that then I did from all other stations combined thoughout the week. Those other stations included, local news, CNN, F*x, MSNBC, etc.

That is bullshit propaganda. The media feeding there listeners/watchers what they want to hear and censoring out what doesn't fit with the party line.

If you want people to listen to proper discourse then you should be working to get your "news" stations in the US to actually tell the news and not the spinned, censored BS that they are pumping out now.

You have to go outside of the US to get anything meaningful. That should change.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:46 AM

HERO

The article, if it says what you claim it says, is not uncommon in this conflict. Some call it journalism, but it is more commonly and accurately known as "pure horseshit".

It is designed to undermine the international war effort by casting unjust accusations on the character and conduct of the American soldiers and the United States government. The ultimate goal is not to support the war on terror, but rather to make sure the US suffers as much political damage as possible in the hopes that US prestige and international influence is replaced on the world stage by more "progessive" forces.

This laudable goal is in turn enthusiatically supported by those who seek a return to more "controlled" forms of government, since "progressives" tend to embrace compromise and appeasement which are the building blocks that a good tyranny needs to survive and prosper. America has proven itself time and again the greatest hinderance to such tyrannical movements, so if they are to reassert themselves, America, or at least American influence, must be removed as an obsticle.

H

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:55 AM

Don't believe me? Read the first post and see that if you click on the video and watch the mentioned times. Then you for youself can see american soldiers THEMSELFES admit to stuff wich are warcrimes.

This entire post is saying nothing about wheter or not the war is bad, just commenting on the way it is fought.

Like I said again, read the first post, see that if you see the article there is an icon on the left hand side wich says video, if you click on it you may see a dutch television programme.

But on the mentioned times you SEE and HEAR US soldiers THEMSELFES admitting to that stuff. I didn't know US soldiers on the battlefield were pure horseshit Hero.

I want the US policing the world and am of opinion the EU should also pay for a decent sized millitary to help along. The world is better for it. But that doesn't give soldiers in the field of battle doing important stuff a licsense to wipe their ass with the Geneva convention.

Still think is horseshit, read my first post and actually watch the video to SEE and HEAR US soldiers in their own language (all you might see is dutch subtitles) saying they do that stuff.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:16 AM

Yep..your right Signa:

They are all evil war criminals. Every bomb that drops in an armed conflict is a war crime.. what the f*** was I thinking.

You're right, Spinning/editing every newscast or article to portray ALL American and Coalition soldiers as War criminals isn't propaganda. NEVER showing or doing a newscast on the good that is being done in Iraq and Afghanistan by Coalition forces is being unbiased and uncensored.

Its all untainted unwashed uncleansed unbiased.

I have 3 words for you:

"Here's your sign"

Anyone who has ever been in a war knows, war is brutal on the body and the mind. Noone who actually fights in it ever wins and sure, crimes will be committed, how can they not. To CONSTANTLY say The Troops should be held to higher standard is a F****** joke. Let me stick your ass in a humvee for 2 years and have people shoot at you every day inside and out, who don't wear uniforms, don't speak your language and have a tendency to blow themselves up at inopportune times near you. I'll have you sit by and watch your bunkmates and fellow soldiers die at the hands of the fundamentalist Islamic guerillas. Then ask you NOT to lose your cool EVER. To even claim that it is possible to prevent war crimes from ever occurring in war is to live in a f****** fantasy world.

To take on this bullshit mentality that by watching/reading a one-sided edited/fabricated/spun videocast or article is PROOF of a lack of bias proves what a tool you are.

Can you name on 1 hand ANY Positive news out of Iraq or Afghanistan that the Mainstream media or any of these other World Media have presented,about ANYTHING that the Coalition has done. Any? Not even a little bit? Okies okies..how about just 1 thing? Aw comeon..it's not taht hard or is it?

No because it wouldn't fit their G******* propaganda infected agenda.

It appalls me. I despise it and the self righteous neo-pacifist pinkos who claim that my friends and family are evil and war criminals. I guarantee you, I ever hear someone say that outloud in my presence, they'll be breathing through a goddamned tube for the next 4 months of their lives. Go visit a Veteran Hospital, and tell me they are all war criminals. Go visit the families of the fallen and tell them that the American Military and coalition MIlitary are all war criminals. THATS WHAT THIS SHIT SAYS!!! It's spun that way on purpose.

I don't agree with the reasons behind the war in Iraq, but I won't sit idly by and read or listen to someone slam our troops. You don't like the war, go after my government. Leave my soldiers alone.

God Bless the US and Coalition Troops, may they come home as safe as they can and as soon as they can. To all the haters out there

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep..your right Signa:

Just asking before I comment on your entire post and digging through the Geneva convention for the entire thing. But was your long post just aimed at Sigma or also at me?

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:28 AM

OPUS

I have a couple problems with what you quoted, and I watched the two examples ...the time code on my player doesn't show the same time code as yours, but I didn't see your quotes anywhere else in the tape.

Quote:
Watch the video and on 0:08:20 you will hear a US soldier blatantly saying that anyone who works with the Taliban will be killed without a trial or anything.

This is a war, if they're helping the Taliban they're a part of it, end of story. To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Quote:
On 0:08:40 you will hear a Us soldier speaking in english that they don't take prisoners but rather shoot them

Your transcription of that leaves something to be desired. The REPORTER ASKS the soldier if he'd RATHER kill them or take them prisoners. The soldier doesn't say they don't take prisoners, he just says what he'd like to do. NOT that, that is what they do.
Your taking one soldiers opinion and feelings and portraying them as what he's actually doing.
I'd like to take a baseball bat to my neighbors head for playing music full blast at three in the morning, but I don't do it.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep..your right Signa:

Just asking before I comment on your entire post and digging through the Geneva convention for the entire thing. But was your long post just aimed at Sigma or also at me?

What's your point Daikath? Are you going to educate me?

Dig away at the Geneva Conventions all you want. I'm well aware of what the Geneva conventions are, what they say and who they apply to. They Only apply to American troops and anyone else is free to do whatever they wish.

Noone has to follow the rules of war except The Americans.

I'll keep slamming your ass down every time I see a BLATANT attempt to ridicule US or Coalition troops and all the preaching about the Geneva Conventions doesn't make a difference.

I'll ask you once:

Are you purposefully trying to say that all American and Coalition troops are War Criminals?

It's a simple yes or no question.

Because , I can't see any other reason for this thread. It's inflammatory garbage meant to antagonize and spread bullshit Anti-American sentiment. Manipulating what someone says to fit your hatemongering agenda is propaganda and rhetoric.

Reporter says "What would your rather do? Kill em or take prisoners?" Yep, rather and actually killing are the same thing.

Frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm sick of all the shitheels who feel they can get away with it, because of some self righteous judgemental attitude they feel they are entitled to or their inability to speak English.

PS: Gee, what was the reason you couldn't work in the US ? Sigma? Is it sour grapes you have?

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
I have a couple problems with what you quoted, and I watched the two examples ...the time code on my player doesn't show the same time code as yours, but I didn't see your quotes anywhere else in the tape.

Quote:
Watch the video and on 0:08:20 you will hear a US soldier blatantly saying that anyone who works with the Taliban will be killed without a trial or anything.

The seconds each began at the start of the footage showing it. But if you are anything like me you won't have a lot of patience sitting through a halfhour current events program in a language you don't understand. I tried to get the stream to maybe capture it but it wouldt let me at it.

Anyways should it be mis understood, in the 8th minute on the 20th second the US soldier begins to speak his threat about killing anyone who aids the Taliban.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
What's your point Daikath? Are you going to educate me?

Not really, I just assumed you would think that the US operated under Geneva conventions. However we are now past that and you both seemed to get past this point.

I apologise if I have offended you though. This isn;t a personal attack and I try to be unbiased. I however saw some things in this tv programme I think were pretty big news to me and wanted a debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
This is a war, if they're helping the Taliban they're a part of it, end of story. To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Noone has to follow the rules of war except The Americans.

I combined these two arguments because they seem to be pretty much about the same thing.

When I spend two years in a hummer getting shot at I would also react the exact same way. No doubt about it.

But in my opinion this doesn't make the actual act any better. It still is what it is. A violation of the code of conduct we as a society made after we saw what terrible things could happen in modern warfare in WWI.

The reasoning behind the act of not just killing poeple who are suspected of helping the enemy without proper evidence (if at all and not just a prison sentence) is that you will do it to a lot of innocent poeple. I think you and I both agree on the reasoning here. I just dont think it is worth the price for what strategical advantage might be gained.

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
Your transcription of that leaves something to be desired. The REPORTER ASKS the soldier if he'd RATHER kill them or take them prisoners. The soldier doesn't say they don't take prisoners, he just says what he'd like to do. NOT that, that is what they do.

Heh, embarrasing for me that I dind't see that. I agree and retract this piece of evidence. I gues I was just still kind of suprised by the earlier blatant threat. I still however want it mentioned that this doesnt diminish the other arguments.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I'll keep slamming your ass down every time I see a BLATANT attempt to ridicule US or Coalition troops and all the preaching about the Geneva Conventions doesn't make a difference.

Again if I apologise if I have offended you, it was not my intent to give this impression or start that kind of debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Are you purposefully trying to say that all American and Coalition troops are War Criminals?

No. I am just saying that some of the methods used in that video cross my personal line of what is acceptible in warfare. The US justified in the war in Afghanistan (I honestly don't know if the war in Iraq was justified and am not talking about WMD, but it is a rather long and complicated story with no relevance).

If it is worth anything my country supported the war in Iraq politically and had troops stations in Almutanna afterwards for the reconstruction, we now also have special forces in Afghanistan (the reason that current events programme did a subject about it).

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:52 PM

OPUS

I honestly believe, in general, people have been lulled into believing it's possible to have a 'civilized' war.
The allies in WW2 did things, that by today's standards you, and others would consider to be war crimes. When that war ended, the US and I believe England had small teams of hand picked death squads, who went around with lists of people who they executed.
In the pacific I heard one soldier talk how they didn't take prisoners unless an officer was around.
There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, I agree. But war is dirty under the best of circumstances.
Regarding the quote from the first soldier, I'd like to hear the rest of his speech to the village or the people, not just that snippet they played. To completely judge it.

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Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:26 PM

Daikath-

My point was that what the soldiers said wasn't a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Yes, Our Soldiers do their best (Shit does happen on occasion and they pay the price) to follow to the "T", if not better, the Geneva Conventions.

The problem is that people are so willing to completely misinterpret and jump the gun. The soldier in my opinion said "We are here to fight and kill the Taliban. If you fight alongside or aid them we will kill you too". That doesn't say "we won't accept surrenders or take prisoners". That is a typical statement in war. Very concise and to the point, because of the need to have the interpreter relay the "IMPORTANCE" of the message and to be perfectly clear. The other soldier was asked "What would you rather do with the Taliban? Kill them or take them prisoner?", there's a BIG difference between "rather" and "will". Your post declared that They WOULD kill them all and WOULDN'T take prisoners. That is not the case. If that WAS the case, we wouldn't ahve seen the nice nice way of putting little plastic handcuffs on.

Thats why I call it manipulation and jumping the gun. I apologize for getting so bold, because I just realized English isn't your first language. Also this is a damn touchy subject for me.

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Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep..your right Signa:

They are all evil war criminals. Every bomb that drops in an armed conflict is a war crime.. what the f*** was I thinking.

You're right, Spinning/editing every newscast or article to portray ALL American and Coalition soldiers as War criminals isn't propaganda. NEVER showing or doing a newscast on the good that is being done in Iraq and Afghanistan by Coalition forces is being unbiased and uncensored.

Its all untainted unwashed uncleansed unbiased.

I have 3 words for you:

"Here's your sign"

Anyone who has ever been in a war knows, war is brutal on the body and the mind. Noone who actually fights in it ever wins and sure, crimes will be committed, how can they not. To CONSTANTLY say The Troops should be held to higher standard is a F****** joke. Let me stick your ass in a humvee for 2 years and have people shoot at you every day inside and out,
>snip<

This is where I stopped reading your crap.

1) Your hyperbole is a joke. I never said anything about every bomb, etc. Read the

first post.

2) Barely anything has gone right over there. Sure the Taliban is gone, but not too far away. What, 50000 Taliban at start of war and 40000 end up in hiding. All of 2 cities in Afganistan are held my coalition forces. Woot, F***** success.

3) I said nothing about being totally unbiased. I said:
"""
Just because they don't present it in every article doesn't mean that that balance doesn't exist. It's just elsewhere. That's called keeping the article on topic.
"""

Because you said:
"""
BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth
...
bullshit propaganda
"""
Which is so far from actual truth it isn't funny.

4) Your "justification" of war crimes is pathetic. Of course from time to time there will be incidents. We are human, we err.

BUT WHEN IT IS POLICY THAT IS BEYOND WRONG. IT IS DISCUSTING AND MUST BE DEALT WITH.

You want an example of people getting shot at that don't freak out: Canada, Japan, Germany... shall I go on?

Your

country needs to grow the

up. Deal with it.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:

To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Not ridiculous, civilized. All civilized nations are expected to uphold such things. If fact, all nations, period, are expect to uphold such things. Especially those that signed the Geneva Convention.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, June 16, 2005 6:08 AM