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Novak's initial column identified Plame as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." He has since stated that he believed Plame was merely an analyst at the CIA, not a covert operative—the difference being that analysts are not undercover, so identifying them is not a crime. Critics contend that after decades as a Washington reporter Novak was well aware of the difference and would be unlikely to make such a mistake. Novak has also claimed that Plame's CIA employment was an open secret in Washington, indicating that effective "affirmative measures" to conceal her relationship to the CIA were not being taken. Several ex-CIA operatives who knew Plame have disputed this and indicated that she was at one time a NOC (nonofficial cover) covert operative.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
You know, this wouldn't be the first time that an undercover officer had posed as a "desk jockey" who flits around internationally with no apparent impact.

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Novak's initial column identified Plame as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." He has since stated that he believed Plame was merely an analyst at the CIA, not a covert operative—the difference being that analysts are not undercover, so identifying them is not a crime. Critics contend that after decades as a Washington reporter Novak was well aware of the difference and would be unlikely to make such a mistake. Novak has also claimed that Plame's CIA employment was an open secret in Washington, indicating that effective "affirmative measures" to conceal her relationship to the CIA were not being taken. Several ex-CIA operatives who knew Plame have disputed this and indicated that she was at one time a NOC (nonofficial cover) covert operative.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame

Besides, it doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. I can get worked up over all kinds of issues!

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In his October 1, 2003 article "The CIA Leak" Novak states this explanation for the two "senior administration officials" and the "CIA official" referenced in his June 14 article:

"During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife. It was an offhand revelation from this official, who is no partisan gunslinger. When I called another official for confirmation, he said: "Oh, you know about it." The published report that somebody in the White House failed to plant this story with six reporters and finally found me as a willing pawn is simply untrue.
At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission."

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
Karl Rove - the human equivalent of a seeping sack of infected pus - gets pissed that a US Ambassador follows his concience and declares that the rush to war in Iraq is NOT justified.

To shut up the person who won't polish his jackboots and step along with El Presidente, Rove betrays the man's wife's identity as a CIA agent.

Treason isn't a pretty word. Treason isn't hyperbole when you're talking about a rat bastard betraying the identity of Valerie Plame and endangering the lives of the agents associated with and the work being done by her.

I'm sure no one is surprised as this is exactly the sort of thing good ole pusbag Karl has done throughout his career; however, does anyone really think that Dubya is going to do anything about it?

Nah ... it's not like El Presidente hasn't known it was his badly disciplined guard hound all along. If he didn't, it's just another example of his pickled brain not seeing something under his nose.

I know there are going to be a ton of responses about how I'm bitter that the democrats lost the election ... yadda yadda yadda ...

Make your little posts, but demand that Dubya does what he swore to do. Demand that Karl Rove be fired.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
Dubya said he'd fire anyone on his staff that leaked classified information. Even if Karl Rove were so incredibly stupid that he didn't realize the information was classifed, he still did it and ignorance isn't an excuse.
Just like all of Dubya's bullshit stories, he'll never fire Rove or anyone else in his administration who dropped the ball, ignored the truth, manipulated intelligence, outright lied or leaked classifed information.
Hell ... I guess if he did clean house, he'd have to scrub the toilets out himself.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
By the way, I'm still wondering why those Bush twins - who seem to be healthy young Americans - aren't carrying an M16 in Iraq. After all, Bush is happy enough to send everyone else's kids off to die.

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Why should he fire Rove? How do you know he “did it?” Rove hasn’t been convicted of any crime, and I’ve not seen any hard evidence of anything, just the keyed up accusations of Liberals and other anti-Rovites. Just because you don’t agree with the guy doesn’t mean we should fire him at the first sign of the appearance of impropriety.

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He’s not sending anyone who didn’t sign up to go. We have an all volunteer military. If the Bush twins want to try their hand at recruitment and possibly go to Iraq, that is their prerogative.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can. (Assuming they are physically fit for it.)

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FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 20:42
I totally believe they could have hired this guy based purely on his supposed Native American background. Considering the idiotic things this clown has said, I find it hard to believe that he could have made it through the system without considerable hand waiving. Higher education in this country is pretty damn Left-wing, but I can’t believe it’s this stupid.
Although I could be wrong, but if this clown is a fair representation of American Academia, we just need to shut down the colleges and start over from scratch, because there’s no fixing something that broke.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 22:12
bologna
He's a fruitcake.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 22:38
I guess that depends on what you mean by quality research. My intern does quality research, but that doesn’t mean she can do the kind of work that the modelers do. If she could, she wouldn’t be an intern; we'd hire her on full time as an engineer or scientist. It doesn’t make any difference how many papers you cite, or write or how many hours you spend in the library, if at the end of the day you draw completely fallacious conclusions.
I’m sure Mr. Churchill would make a good intern.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 23:02
Any idiot can publish a book. That's more dependent on public interest then on the advancement of knowledge.
As far as advancing the level of understanding within a particular field, I have yet to see anything from Chruchill that would convince me he has made any such significant advances. Your assumption that the quality of his research necessarily means his conclusion advance anything is precarious at best. I would argue that making the breakthrough discovery that innocent victims of a terrorist attack are equivalent to Nazi executioner of Jews is probably not as great a leap forward as one might think.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
... I don’t need to be intimately familiar with this man’s work in order to draw the conclusion that he is a fruitcake. I only need to be familiar enough, which I am.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
The “phenomenon of Nazi Germany” was that people like Churchill were in power. People who believed that targeting and murdering innocent people to achieve a political goal was completely justifiable. Fortunately, no one like Churchill is in power in the US today. But considering how people dismiss and justify fruitcakey comments, and how willing we seem to be to put a person like Churchill in a position where he can implant fruitcakey ideas in impressionable minds, maybe someday you’ll get your analogy.
Hitler was just a fruitcake who happened to be in power.
FINN MAC CUMHAL
Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:06
Never mind the 9/11 essay or the dubious ancestry, this turd is disgrace to his supposed profession.
It really puts things into perspective to see where some people’s priorities lie. Here we have the pedantic ramblings of a man who condones the intentional murder of thousands of innocent civilians based on some misguided fantasy of nationalistic pride. The psychosis of Hitler almost to the letter and some people can’t bring themselves to denounce this guy, apparently because he’s a fellow Left-winger. Instead they try to deflect the issue to the Right. The latest story is to try to bring up some journalist who snuck into the Whitehouse. During a discussion about the ‘befittingness’ of mass murder we are supposed to be outraged over some weirdo web blogger as if there is any equivalency at all. It's telling. It's very telling.

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FINN MAC CUMHAL
Monday, April 04, 2005 - 05:24
Interesting. I initially supported Clinton in the impeachment scandal. Not that I necessarily supported him ideologically, but that was kind of during my transitional phase when I was moving away from the Left-wing hippy academic camp. After I learned more about the Clinton Whitehouse and began realize how poorly he ran things with his frat-boy mentality, it occurred to me that he brought it on himself. He was a poor leader and finally, whatever argument one can make about the Clinton political opponents, the fact remain that he did lie under oath in a federal court, and that pretty much symbolizes Clinton's value-system. Nothing one can say about Republicans excuses that.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:

Nah ... it's not like El Presidente hasn't known it was his badly disciplined guard hound all along. If he didn't, it's just another example of his pickled brain not seeing something under his nose.

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“I don’t know who all is calling for his dismissal. I think that if he acquired his position through fraud and that can be determined, then I think he should be dismissed immediately. Other then that, I’m not going to call for his dismissal based on the kinds of comments he’s made. Although, given the lunacy of some of his statements I can certainly understand if the tax payers of Colorado don’t want to pay this guy to teach their children. ”

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About his being fired, you said YOU would not do it but it would be OK for other people to.

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Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.

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If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

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Originally posted by rue:

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Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.

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I'd think that'd be at least the minimum policy. Any bets as to whether even that happens?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
True enough, but I think the point was not that random people are pulled off the streets and sent. That's the real tragedy of it. These are truly people who love their country, who've volunteered to protect it. To send them on unnecessary adventures would be an abuse of trust. If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
Bingo!
Thank you kindly for saying what I REALLY meant to say. I'm an upper-middle-class-white-chick. I spent 10 years in the Air Force. Of my brothers and sisters (5 of us total) we spent 35 years in service. I have always advocated the military as a way of life for the young people I know who could both take it and thrive in it.

Now? I couldn't tell a kid the join the military. I'm seeing misadventure everywhere. Bush & Co are using our forces as a way of expanding the financial empires of their rich cronies.

Iraq had no WMD. Iraq didn't have the strength to cause its neighbors alarm. Iraq had NO connections to 9/11 or Al Quaida.

What does Iraq have? Oil.

I don't see Bush's daughters there - I do see him continuing to bang that war drum though. I don't see him or his ilk convincing their children to put themselves in harm's way.

Frak! I've hijacked my own thread.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
True enough, but I think the point was not that random people are pulled off the streets and sent. That's the real tragedy of it. These are truly people who love their country, who've volunteered to protect it. To send them on unnecessary adventures would be an abuse of trust. If a war is the grave necessity our leaders say, then they out to be willing to put their own flesh and blood on the line, alongside the sons and daughters of the nations taxpayers.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Anyhow, the logic hole of 'sending' people into the military is obvious. If any adult wants to join the military, they can.

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http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Originally posted by rue:
Where oh where was your concern for due process when it came to Ward Churchill?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Except the reservists whose expectation was that they would protect the home sod while the real troops were fighting on foreign soil.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
The concept of 'Total Force' was designed in part to ensure that reservists and guard would be called up. The idea was to make everyone's neighbors vulnerable and effect everyone's lives.
One of the reasons wars drag on so long is that 'regular' people don't have military experience and don't know anyone in uniform. Ergo, they don't really notice when bodies and lives are getting blown to bits.
Even with total force, people are able to turn a blind eye to the horror. They justify or ignore the carnage. "They volunteered what did they expect" is one disgusting refrain from the masses.
Being able to NOT be involved is one of the reasons I've always supported a draft and national service with NO college exemption.
Here's my perfect world of universal service and or draft: Everyone -- male or female, rich or poor -- if you are of sound mind and body, you serve.
No college exemptions. You will serve before you go off to school or you will serve after graduation. No weasles getting out of it.
If you are a conciencious objector you get to spend four years picking up trash along our nation's rivers or serving in some other way that doesn't involve carrying a gun.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Except the reservists whose expectation was that they would protect the home sod while the real troops were fighting on foreign soil.

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http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Originally posted by Connorflynn:
It might force us to be a little less free with the Globalization agenda. Then again..who knows. Our government would probably create a loophole to prevent THEIR kids from ever seeing active combat.

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Where, oh, where is your concern for due process?

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Originally posted by rue:
About his being fired, you said YOU would not do it but it would be OK for other people to. . . . But you certainly have a record of deciding he was a fraud, incompetent, a Nazi clone, fire-able (though not by you of course, you're far too interested in due process), a fruitcake etc etc etc. Yep. You're a fair minded guy just looking for due process in the interests of justice.

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Originally posted by rue:
So, find me a quote where I say Rove should be instantly fired.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
I don't see Bush's daughters there - I do see him continuing to bang that war drum though. I don't see him or his ilk convincing their children to put themselves in harm's way.

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His ilk? Most of the military are Bush supporters? Most of the military in Iraq voted for Bush, twice. And none of them were coerced into the military, not by Bush. They support Bush and joined the military totally on their own.

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Originally posted by rue:

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Back on topic. Mr. Rove should be suspended until his specific role has been determined.

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I'd think that'd be at least the minimum policy. Any bets as to whether even that happens?

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*sigh* No-one liked my joke.

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Are you crazy?!?! Of course Mr. Bush can see what's under his nose. Otherwise, how could so much have gone up it?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
*sigh* No-one liked my joke.

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You mean- this one???Are you crazy?!?! Of course Mr. Bush can see what's under his nose. Otherwise, how could so much have gone up it? OF COURSE I liked your joke! It caught me in the middle of drinking my ayem coffee, which I promptly snorted out my, er, nose!

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a general comment though. Watching the news about what is happening politically in the US (mainly) is kinda like watching political satire. I'd laugh at the absurdity if I wasn't aware it was real. Right now it's just scary sad.

Anyone else feel this way?

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Yes. Yes. This is a very scary sad moment for us humans. We're gonna have to do some growing up very fast, if a whole crowd of disasters are to be avoided. People in this country are so frightened still, and angry.

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Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

So here it is, in a nutshell:

You said if he got his job through fraud he should be fired, and that he was not up to academic muster, and that his phony Indian 'status' got him the job. The only thing you left out was "therefore".

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Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

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Is there some reason why Rove shouldn’t be granted the same benefit of the doubt as an instructor who condones the mass murder of Americans?

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Evidently, you think the "minimum policy" should be that Rove should be suspended, so you are calling Rove’s dismissal without due process. Is there some reason why Rove shouldn’t be granted the same benefit of the doubt as an instructor who condones the mass murder of Americans? You've decided that due process was so important in Churchill's case, but not Rove's?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

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But, alas. This is the republican way. I think they send them to a school or something to perfect the technique. Wonder if they have a class on avoiding federal grand jury indictments?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm... a point here? Maybe it's because Karl apparently doesn't know how to handle classified information? That he could have inflicted real harm to our security (and according to some CIA ppl he did)? Or possibly that he appears to have broken a law?

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Originally posted by rue:
First of all, suspension (with or without pay) is not dismissal. Basic fact you can't seem to wrap your mind around.

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Originally posted by rue:
Last, you yourself made the link between Churchill's statement's and firing by direct contrast - I would not, but they ....

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...

I am familiar enough with dodge phrases - it seems, it appears, I think ...
And with how you routinely malign people through implication.

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But, alas. This is the republican way. I think they send them to a school or something to perfect the technique. Wonder if they have a class on avoiding federal grand jury indictments?

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
. . . Bush says that Bin Laden doesn't concern him anymore and less than a month (I think it was just a few weeks) later denies it, saying, . . .

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I think it has to to with America being . . .

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Ummm... a point here? Maybe it's because Karl apparently doesn't know how to handle classified information? That he could have inflicted real harm to our security (and according to some CIA ppl he did)? Or possibly that he appears to have broken a law?

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How do you know any of this is true? That is what due process was to determine. Are you magic? Evidently, you’ve already convicted him, right?

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Did all of you attend that class?

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
. . . Bush says that Bin Laden doesn't concern him anymore and less than a month (I think it was just a few weeks) later denies it, saying, . . .

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