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Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Let me add one more thing. If there are any reasonable conservatives (Geezer, for example) who want to know if ardent Bush supporters have even one toe dabbling in reality, just read this thread. It should answer that question.

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And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?

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If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way

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- I'd get involved.

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[off topic] Many Americans are living a deep contradiction. On the one hand, they feel morally and militarily superior. On the other hand, they fear. But they have yet to experience that cold, still moment when survival calculations take place. When they are shocked into THINKING. Because they haven't truly taken the measure of their opponent, they are likely to act in dangerous ways

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?

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ALL I worry about??? Did you write that with a straight face, or were you chuckling at your private joke? Apparently, you've missed about a hundred posts!

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If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way

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Hmmm... are you saying it doesn't make a difference who's in the White House?

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- I'd get involved.

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What does it take to get involved anyway? Write your Congressmen. Or link up to the four or five website that allow you to email instead. That's all it takes for God's sake!

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You personally were not the subject of Geezers post

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The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

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You personally were not the subject of Geezers post

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I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

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You personally were not the subject of Geezers post

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I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

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"And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?"

Sorry, SignyM, but I don't consider you all the people involved in this thread. In this case I was noting that the Karl Rove thread, including side trips to Mr Churchill and the real meaning of "suspend" has garnered more posts than anything since the first of the month, followed by the "Chopper killing farmers" thread. Both these began with "Guilty until proven innocent" allegations and devolved into the usual Evil Empire vs. let's let the system work debate, with a few insults thrown in for good measure.

I'm just so tired of all these remakes of the same movie.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm gonna have to do the unexpected here and defend AJ.

His statements, as they were written and as analyzed by perfessergee, do lead to the logical fallacy described above. But, I think it's mostly a matter of presentation. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong AJ) that his point was something more like this: Rove hasn't been convicted of anything yet and it's wrong to treat him as if he's guilty until he has been.

I certainly feel differently. From my point of view, the wrong that was done has already been openly acknowledged. To me, the wrong part was starting a whispering campaign to damage the credibility of a critic. It just seems underhanded and something that ought to be beneath officials at the White House.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay- We all decided that we don't like the same old same old. Nobody changes their POV and so the discussions are static ("stasis" not "noise"). The only way to move the discusion forward is for people to come to them with open minds, not simply turning them into wrestling matches where evasive maneuvers, dodges, and eye-gouging is allowed.

So, I'm going to ask a question that is ON TOPIC, and I hope to get an answer: Why should "we" (the public?) wait until Karl Rove (or any politician?) is indicted (convicted?) before discussing (reaching conclusions?) about his activities? Or, to back up a step...maybe someone will step forward and clarify what they think is the appropriate action to take. I will listen and reply respectfully and directly. Thanks.

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The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric. Nothing is accomplished but for the Far Far Wingers to vent their respective Spleens and blame all the worlds problems on their specific self proclaimed demons.

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The moderate voices of reason just with attempts to invoke a sense of reality to the topic of the day, and are promplty labeled (wrongly) as the lap dog of (insert your party here).

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I for one (or another after Geezer) am sick to death of the abysmally stupid rants of the far far wingers. And deeply sorry for the efforts I have given to express my own VERY MODERATE opinions and explanations to the deaf of ear, heart, and reason.

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It happens on both sides of the spectrum. The Rhetoric surrounding the "Karl Rove" issue by the Democrat side of the isle is just as bad as the Rhetoric of the Republican side used during the "Monica Lewisky" issue.

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"Due Process"
I do not mean the Legal definition of it, but more the MORAL reason WHY it is such an important piece of the bedrock which the American Legal system is laid on.

Anyone can accuse wrong doing.
Anyone can manufacture evidence.
Anyone can lie.
Anyone can mislead.
Anyone can inflate the Rhetoric to make the small, seem big.

Any one of these things can ruin the reputation of an innocent citizen, or, conversly hide the guilt of another.

It happens on both sides of the spectrum. The Rhetoric surrounding the "Karl Rove" issue by the Democrat side of the isle is just as bad as the Rhetoric of the Republican side used during the "Monica Lewisky" issue.

In both cases (as in all pushbutton issues) the Rhetoric is STUPID, NON-CONSECUENTIAL, and DEBASING of the dignity of the American political system.

Who cares if Clinton was fooling around with Monica... Shame on the politicians, and shame on the media for eating it up and not investigating impartially... It's this sort of behavior that hurts our country much more than it could ever help it.

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