REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IRAN: Trump's war?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, July 12, 2019 19:07
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Monday, May 13, 2019 12:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I don't think there is a thread on Iran. Pompous, Bolt-on, and Trump are cranking up their "war on Iran"*, possibly leading up to war itself.

The PNAC neocons have long targeted Iran for destruction, along with Syria, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, and Lebanon. ("We’re going to start with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, then Libya, Somalia, Sudan, we’re going to come back and get Iran in five years". - General Clark)
https://journal-neo.org/2014/10/09/the-neoconservative-hit-list-iraq-l
ibya-and-now-syria-a-plan-for-global-u-s-military-supremacy
/

Israel's long-term plan for the Middle East was to destroy Iraq, Syria, and Iran: "A Clean Break"
http://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/29/clean-break-to-dirt
y-wars
/

Trump has spoken against Iran, even when he was campaigning. I don't know the source of his animus against Iran (probably "Javanka") but it runs counter to his desire to make nice with Russia, and also to not start new wars.

Recent events:

Withdrawing from the JPCOA
Fully sanctioning Iran, and threatening to sanction any other nation that deals with Iran
Letting the "Iran oil" exemptions expire (India, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, China, Turkey most affected)
Meeting with Iraq two weeks ago RE:Iranian influence (Pompous)
Meeting with the EU (instead of Putin) RE; Iran
Sending a carrier group to the Persian Gulf

In the meantime, several Saudi and UAE oil tankers have been sabotaged in the Persian Gulf. The blame will probably go to Iran altho this might have been a false flag to precipitate war.

So I wonder .. of all of the "regime change" operations that Trump has threatened and/or is engaged in (Venezuela, Syria - continuing, N Korea, Turkey, Iran, Russia)

Iran is the one nation that has a long history of being targeted by Armageddonists like Pompeo, neocons like Bolton, PNAC pro-Zionists like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, and actual Zionists like Netenyahu, partners like Saudi Arabia, Trump appointees like Gen Flynn, Trump advisors like "Javanka", and even Trump himself.

Given the vast array of advisors, other nations, and appointees who have Iran in their sights, will Iran be the one exception to Trump's reluctance to involve the military in regime-change operations?

Or will he limit himself to CIA assets, mercs, spec-ops, proxies, cyber-, financial, ad economic warfare, and "show of force" repositioning of US ships?

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Monday, May 13, 2019 8:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


PNAC?
Javanka?

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Monday, May 13, 2019 8:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


PNAC: Project for the New American Century, a neoconservative think tank which advocated total world dominance by the USA military. GWB appointed quite a number of PNAC signatories.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm

"Javanka": The combined influence of Jared and Ivanka Kushner. Jared is an avid pro-Zionist. It seems to me that, for him, Israel's interests come to mind first, before the USA's.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, shit ... just as night follows day ...

Quote:

US Accuses Iran Of Attack On Saudi Tankers

Update: Just as everyone with half a frontal lobe had expected, the WSJ reported late on Monday that according to an initial U.S. assessment, "Iran was likely behind the attack" on the two Saudi Arabian oil tankers and two other vessels damaged over the weekend near the Strait of Hormuz, a U.S. official said, a finding that, whether confirmed or not, will certainly inflame military tensions in the Gulf and likely result in a global proxy war that drags in the US, China and Russia. Oh, and that would be the Persian Gulf for those wondering, not the Gulf of Tonkin, which is where another famous False Flag naval incident occurred.



Furthermore, as we predicted would happen on Sunday, this "official assessment", was the first suggestion by any nation that Iran was responsible for the attack and follows a series of U.S. warnings against "aggression" by Iran or its allies and proxies against military or commercial vessels in the region. Some more details from the WSJ:

The U.S. official, who declined to be identified, didn’t offer details about what led to the assessment or its implications for a possible U.S. response. The U.S. has said in the past week that it was sending an aircraft carrier, an amphibious assault ship, a bomber task force and an antimissile system to the region after it alleged intelligence showed Iran posed a threat to its troops.

“If they do anything, they will suffer greatly. We’ll see what happens with Iran,” President Trump said while meeting with Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban at the White House earlier on Monday.

The assessment, predictable from a mile away, squares perfectly with CIA veteran Mike Pompeo's warning from just two days before the alleged attack, in which he said that "The regime in Tehran should understand that any attacks by them or their proxies of any identity against US interests or citizens will be answered with a swift and decisive US response,” the US Secretary of State wrote in a statement warning that Iran should not mistake US “restraint” for a “lack of resolve,” and criticizing Iran for “an escalating series of threatening actions and statements in recent weeks."

MORE AT https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-13/sabotage-attacks-saudi-tanke
rs-stoke-fears-war-accident


Originally reported by https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-oil-tankers-attacked-before-enterin
g-persian-gulf-11557725971?mod=hp_lead_pos7


Now, I know that y'all not so much into foreign policy, but I suggest that you get on the phone to the WH and tell them to tell Trump to end our endless wars, or email

https://www.whitehouse.gov/get-involved/write-or-call/



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, May 20, 2019 1:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


For all the time some people spend pissing and moaning about Russia's supposed influence on Trump, it seems they could spend a few moments pissing and moaning about Israel's and Saudi Arabia's outsized effect

Quote:

Iran Slams Trump's "Genocidal Taunts" As "Team B" Concocted Threats
Soon after reportedly meeting with national security advisor John Bolton at the White House Sunday afternoon in the wake of a lone rocket being launched toward the US embassy in central Baghdad's protected 'Green Zone', President Trump provocatively warned via Twitter: "If Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran," and added, "Never threaten the United States again!"

Iran has fired back Monday morning, with Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif saying also via Twitter that mere "genocidal taunts" won't "end Iran".

Goaded by #B_Team, @realdonaldTrump hopes to achieve what Alexander, Genghis & other aggressors failed to do. Iranians have stood tall for millennia while aggressors all gone. #EconomicTerrorism & genocidal taunts won't "end Iran". #NeverThreatenAnIranian. Try respect—it works!
— Javad Zarif (@JZarif) May 20, 2019

Tehran's top diplomat said: Goaded by B_Team, Trump hopes to achieve what Alexander, Genghis & other aggressors failed to do. Iranians have stood tall for millennia while aggressors all gone. Economic terrorism & genocidal taunts won't "end Iran".

If Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran. Never threaten the United States again!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 19, 2019

The sarcastic "Team B" insult has been a familiar theme of Zarif's of late. He previously stated on May 17 when the Trump administration appeared to contradict itself — given both Bolton and Pompeo have appeared way out front of Trump when it comes to threat of war, and with Trump saying he "doesn't want war" — that With the B_Team doing one thing & Trump saying another thing, it is apparently the U.S. that doesn’t know what to think.

FM Zarif's "B-Team" seems a reference to John Bolton, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Saudi Crown Prince Bin Salman, based on some prior references Iran has made indicating those actually dictating the direction of White House foreign policy. Or more broadly, it's referencing the powerful Saudi and Israeli lobbies in Washington, which have long argued for a US military confrontation with Iran.

And generally the B-Team reference has been seen as pointing to the 'deep state' and its longtime outsized influence on policy direction. Thus perhaps for the first time in history a foreign enemy of Washington is acknowledging a president is being "goaded" by deep state interests over which he had little control. It's not the first time Iran has urged Trump to resist these voices.

Trump has denied being at odds with his own top aides and cabinet members, days ago framing what appeared to be policy confusion as merely a strategic attempt at sowing unpredictability: "at least Iran doesn't know what to think," the president tweeted last Friday at the end of a week of military build-up in the Persian Gulf and soaring tensions.

Going into this past weekend, it appeared de-escalation and a general calming of tensions was on the horizon as Trump seemed to distance himself from Bolton's usually charged rhetoric.

However, the Sunday tweet put things right back where they started two weeks ago when Bolton first announced a heightened state of alert and deployment of a carrier strike group to the Persian Gulf, citing intelligence that US troops face attack by Iran and its regional allies.

Is Trump merely playing to 2020? Trump's retweeting of the below makes it appear so.

God Bless President Trump--- Iran's so called leaders must think they're dealing with Bush or Obama. #MAGA #AmericaFirst #Dobbs https://t.co/r9ROi9QiMy
— Lou Dobbs (@LouDobbs) May 19, 2019

But then again, it could be that Trump's every intent is to de-escalate, even while ratcheting the tough bellicose talk ultimately geared toward the 2020 reelection campaign.

Even the Iranians likely remember that with Trump, there is indeed a prior tweet for every occasion...


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-20/iran-dismisses-trumps-genoci
dal-taunts-team-b-concocted-threats



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, May 20, 2019 2:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
For all the time some people spend pissing and moaning about Russia's supposed influence on Trump, it seems they could spend a few moments pissing and moaning about Israel's and Saudi Arabia's outsized effect



That would piss off people like the prince of Qatar who gave Bill Clinton a million dollars for his birthday.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, May 20, 2019 3:39 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "If Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran. Never threaten the United States again!" https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1130207891049332737?s=21

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Monday, May 20, 2019 4:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "If Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran. Never threaten the United States again!" https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1130207891049332737?s=21]



Do you have any idea what this was in response to? Because my reading of it is that Trump is an idiot when it comes to Iran.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, May 20, 2019 5:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I don't buy for a second that there'll be any exchange of ordinance w/ Iran.

It's a Kabuki show , on a global sized stage.

While we're fretting over this big nothing, look for other events to take place. And get totally unnoticed.

My 2 cents.

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Monday, May 20, 2019 6:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


At this point, wouldn't it be quicker to make a list of countries in the Middle East that we're not at war with?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 6:48 AM

REAVERFAN


Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.

Therefore, neither does Siggy.


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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:38 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.

Therefore, neither does Siggy.




Hitler loved dogs.

Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Here Are 5 Times Donald Trump Warned Against Going to War With Iran
The president should scroll through his old tweets, rather than listening to John Bolton.
https://reason.com/2019/05/20/here-are-5-times-donald-trump-warned-aga
inst-going-to-war-with-iran
/

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Now that Obama’s poll numbers are in tailspin - watch for him to launch a strike in Libya or Iran. He is desperate.
4:39 PM - Oct 9. 2012

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Don't let Obama play the Iran card in order to start a war in order to get elected-be careful Republicans!
11:43 AM - Oct 22, 2012

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
I predict that President Obama will at some point attack Iran in order to save face!
4:23 PM - Sep 16, 2013

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Remember what I previously said-Obama will someday attack Iran in order to show how tough he is.
12:44 PM - Sep 25, 2013

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Remember that I predicted a long time ago that President Obama will attack Iran because of his inability to negotiate properly-not skilled!
9:55 PM - Nov 10, 2013

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 11:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.
Therefore, neither does Siggy. - REAVERBOT


Hitler loved dogs.
Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.- SIX



HAHA! indeed.

I swear to god, REAVERBOT has only a few words in its vocabulary: "Nazi" "troll" and "Russia". Occasionally it veers off into new territory, like "Pppppppputin".

Hey REAVERBOT! How does it feel to be so stupid?

Here's the deal: I don't want the USA to attack ANYBODY. "Attacking" is an offensive (not defesnive) position, and violence IMHO should only be used in defense. You OTOH ... seem to want to attack everybody, not only at the national level but at the personal level.

So you're not only an abysmally stupid bot, you're an aggressive little bot too. Somebody should reprogram you.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 12:38 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.
Therefore, neither does Siggy. - REAVERBOT


Hitler loved dogs.
Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.- SIX



HAHA! indeed.

I swear to god, REAVERBOT has only a few words in its vocabulary: "Nazi" "troll" and "Russia". Occasionally it veers off into new territory, like "Pppppppputin".

Hey REAVERBOT! How does it feel to be so stupid?

Here's the deal: I don't want the USA to attack ANYBODY. "Attacking" is an offensive (not defesnive) position, and violence IMHO should only be used in defense. You OTOH ... seem to want to attack everybody, not only at the national level but at the personal level.

So you're not only an abysmally stupid bot, you're an aggressive little bot too. Somebody should reprogram you.



So, when you’re not being a troll you’re ball cupping 6? I think anyone would call that a steady decline.

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 1:40 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Oh, lookie. More mindless insults by Captain Wonderful.

It must be Tuesday.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, May 21, 2019 11:48 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Oh, lookie. More mindless insults by Captain Wonderful.

It must be Tuesday.



“...sure plays a mean pinball.”

Hardly mindless - basic observation.

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Wednesday, May 22, 2019 12:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Oh, lookie. More mindless insults by Captain Wonderful. It must be Tuesday.- SIX

Hardly mindless - basic observation.- GSTRING



So, what do you think of war with Iran GSTRING? For? Against?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, May 22, 2019 5:44 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Oh, lookie. More mindless insults by Captain Wonderful. It must be Tuesday.- SIX

Hardly mindless - basic observation.- GSTRING



So, what do you think of war with Iran GSTRING? For? Against?



He's clearly waiting for Rachel Maddow to give him his opinion.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, May 23, 2019 11:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Oh, lookie. More mindless insults by Captain Wonderful. It must be Tuesday.- SIX

Hardly mindless - basic observation.- GSTRING



So, what do you think of war with Iran GSTRING? For? Against?



He's clearly waiting for Rachel Maddow to give him his opinion.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

So, GSTRING. War with Iran ... for or against?




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, May 23, 2019 4:30 PM

JONGSSTRAW


A war with Iran would probably be an epic disaster for the entire Middle East. On the other hand, it would certainly make for better Summer tv than reruns.

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Friday, May 24, 2019 3:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GSTRING is such a weenie. He's apparently terrified of expressing an opinion because he might have to agree with me?

Geez, what a jellyfish.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 1, 2019 3:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I don't think there is a thread on Iran. Pompous, Bolt-on, and Trump are cranking up their "war on Iran"*, possibly leading up to war itself.

The PNAC neocons have long targeted Iran for destruction, along with Syria, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, and Lebanon. ("We’re going to start with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, then Libya, Somalia, Sudan, we’re going to come back and get Iran in five years". - General Clark)
https://journal-neo.org/2014/10/09/the-neoconservative-hit-list-iraq-l
ibya-and-now-syria-a-plan-for-global-u-s-military-supremacy
/

Israel's long-term plan for the Middle East was to destroy Iraq, Syria, and Iran: "A Clean Break"
http://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/29/clean-break-to-dirt
y-wars
/

Trump has spoken against Iran, even when he was campaigning. I don't know the source of his animus against Iran (probably "Javanka") but it runs counter to his desire to make nice with Russia, and also to not start new wars.

Recent events:

Withdrawing from the JPCOA
Fully sanctioning Iran, and threatening to sanction any other nation that deals with Iran
Letting the "Iran oil" exemptions expire (India, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, China, Turkey most affected)
Meeting with Iraq two weeks ago RE:Iranian influence (Pompous)
Meeting with the EU (instead of Putin) RE; Iran
Sending a carrier group to the Persian Gulf

In the meantime, several Saudi and UAE oil tankers have been sabotaged in the Persian Gulf. The blame will probably go to Iran altho this might have been a false flag to precipitate war.

So I wonder .. of all of the "regime change" operations that Trump has threatened and/or is engaged in (Venezuela, Syria - continuing, N Korea, Turkey, Iran, Russia)

Iran is the one nation that has a long history of being targeted by Armageddonists like Pompeo, neocons like Bolton, PNAC pro-Zionists like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, and actual Zionists like Netenyahu, partners like Saudi Arabia, Trump appointees like Gen Flynn, Trump advisors like "Javanka", and even Trump himself.

Given the vast array of advisors, other nations, and appointees who have Iran in their sights, will Iran be the one exception to Trump's reluctance to involve the military in regime-change operations?

Or will he limit himself to CIA assets, mercs, spec-ops, proxies, cyber-, financial, ad economic warfare, and "show of force" repositioning of US ships?



NOPE. It was Obama's War, all along. The entire Obamination Regime worked hard to create it.

I am copying here a post which Jongstraw used as his OP of another thread:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

May 31, 2019

The Daily Beast reported Friday that former members of President Barack Obama’s administration are advising the Iranian regime.

As the Trump administration sent warplanes and an aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf, a small group of former Obama administration officials reached out to their contacts in the Iranian government, including Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif. Their message to Iran: Don’t take Trump’s bait. Stay calm.

Conversations between former Obama officials and Iranian government officials have been ongoing since November 2016.

Th Obama alumni are also reportedly passing messages from the Iranian regime to congressional Democrats:

Three Obama officials who worked closely on the Iran nuclear deal, one of whom is still in touch with Iranian government officials, traveled to Capitol Hill to brief congressional Democrats about the situation. Those former officials said would not say if they passed information from Iranian government officials to members of Congress. Rather, they said they focused on educating members about their experience working with Iranian leaders and how Tehran reacts to economic pressure.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein is already known to have met with Zarif, and was seen with his contact page open on her cell phone.

Former Secretary of State John Kerry, who led the negotiations that produced the Iran nuclear deal, is known to be meeting with Zarif as well — which President Donald Trump said earlier this month should have earned him prosecution under the Logan Act.

Some Obama alumni are also thought to be encouraging Iran to stick with the nuclear deal and to wait out the Trump presidency.


http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/05/31/report-obama-adm
inistration-alumni-advising-iranian-regime-on-dealing-with-trump
/

Old habits die hard, especially for treasonous Democraps. Looks like a lot more work ahead for Barr. These traitors need to be locked up. Personally, I prefer a good old fashioned firing squad for the scum. And for the sake of the children watching, please make sure Feinstein is "double-bagged".




http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=63101

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Saturday, June 1, 2019 3:38 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
For all the time some people spend pissing and moaning about Russia's supposed influence on Trump, it seems they could spend a few moments pissing and moaning about Israel's and Saudi Arabia's outsized effect



"Don't look over there, look over here!"

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 2:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So.... can you say Gulf of Tonkin? Sure you can!


Quote:

U.S. Sees State Actor Behind Oil Tanker Attacks in Gulf Region

An attack on two oil tankers near the entrance to the Persian Gulf was likely done by a state actor, according to a U.S. official, heightening tensions over a potential military confrontation between the U.S. and Iran. Oil prices surged.

The incidents on Thursday, including an assault on a Japanese-operated vessel, were the second in a month to hit ships near the Strait of Hormuz chokepoint, through which about 40% of the world’s seaborne oil travels. They come as Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, a rare ally of both Donald Trump and Iranian leaders, visits Tehran in an effort to ease tensions.

A U.S. official said the government is confident it knows which country is responsible but declined to give more details. U.S. and Saudi officials have suggested they think Iran was behind a previous attack last month on ships in the region.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-13/oil-tanker-on-fire-
in-sea-of-oman-u-k-body-starts-probe?srnd=premium


Meanwhile REAVERBOT's head is still stuck up his ass. which is where he chooses to spend his time instead of in the REAL real world.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 2:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Update 6: And there it is...

The US has officially blamed Iran for Thursday's attacks, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told reporters during a Thursday press briefing.

Of course
Quote:

The secretary of state and longtime Iran hawk said Iran's unprovoked attacks are part of a campaign to escalate tension in the region and disrupt the flow of the international oil trade (if we can't be sell our oil, nobody can, would appear to be the logic). He also said that Tehran rejected Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's outreach for diplomacy.

The US is planning to raise concerns about Iran at the UN Security Council, Pompeo said.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-13/2-tankers-damaged-after-susp
ected-torpedo-attack-near-strait-hormuz-oil-soars




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Trump wanted a war with Iran long before he was President:

In his 2011 book, Time to Get Tough, Trump stated, "America's primary goal with Iran must be to destroy its nuclear ambitions. Let me put them as plainly as I know how: Iran's nuclear program must be stopped–by any and all means necessary. Period. We cannot allow this radical regime to acquire a nuclear weapon that they will either use or hand off to terrorists."

On September 7, 2015, Trump said of the Iran nuclear deal, "If somebody was telling me about how bad the contract is and how they hate the country — how do you sign a contract like this? And that’s the least of it. The contract is a disaster in virtually every way, and one way that people haven’t even talked about: they have an attack clause. If anybody attacks them, we have to protect them. What happens if Israel attacks them? Nobody has been able to answer that question yet, including [Secretary of State John] Kerry."

On September 6, 2016, Donald Trump said that Iran was not a threat to the world until President Barack Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton began negotiating a nuclear deal with Iran, which made the country a "world power." He said, "If you take a look at Iran from four, five years ago they were dying. They had sanctions, they were being choked to death and they were dying. They weren't even going to be much of a threat. They didn't have anything going and now they're a power. Overnight, we've made them a power." He then called the nuclear deal "the highest level of incompetence."

https://ballotpedia.org/Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2016/Iran

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 5:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Update 6: And there it is...

The US has officially blamed Iran for Thursday's attacks, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told reporters during a Thursday press briefing.

Of course
Quote:

The secretary of state and longtime Iran hawk said Iran's unprovoked attacks are part of a campaign to escalate tension in the region and disrupt the flow of the international oil trade (if we can't be sell our oil, nobody can, would appear to be the logic). He also said that Tehran rejected Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's outreach for diplomacy.

The US is planning to raise concerns about Iran at the UN Security Council, Pompeo said.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-13/2-tankers-damaged-after-susp
ected-torpedo-attack-near-strait-hormuz-oil-soars


Was that sarcasm? Or what?

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:32 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.

Therefore, neither does Siggy.




Hitler loved dogs.

Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

This is why everyone knows you're an idiot.

And a wannabe Nazi, but you're too weak.

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Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:33 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.
Therefore, neither does Siggy. - REAVERBOT


Hitler loved dogs.
Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.- SIX



HAHA! indeed.

I swear to god, REAVERBOT has only a few words in its vocabulary: "Nazi" "troll" and "Russia". Occasionally it veers off into new territory, like "Pppppppputin".

Hey REAVERBOT! How does it feel to be so stupid?

Here's the deal: I don't want the USA to attack ANYBODY. "Attacking" is an offensive (not defesnive) position, and violence IMHO should only be used in defense. You OTOH ... seem to want to attack everybody, not only at the national level but at the personal level.

So you're not only an abysmally stupid bot, you're an aggressive little bot too. Somebody should reprogram you.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

And this is why we know you'e a Russian troll.

Not a very bright one. That's why they assigned you to this teeny tiny site.

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Friday, June 14, 2019 12:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.




Quote:

The Japanese owner of the Kokuka Courageous, one of two oil tankers targeted near the Strait of Hormuz, said Friday that sailors on board saw "flying objects" just before it was hit, suggesting the vessel wasn't damaged by mines.

That account contradicts what the U.S. military said as it released a video Friday it said shows Iranian forces removing an unexploded limpet mine from one of the two ships that were hit.

The Japanese tanker was attacked twice Thursday, damaging the vessel and forcing all 21 crew members to evacuate.

Company president Yutaka Katada said Friday he believes the flying objects seen by the sailors could have been bullets. He denied any possibility of mines or torpedoes because the damage was above the ship's waterline.

THAT is called "evidence". Damage above the waterline rules out torpedoes and mines (unless someone has developed flying torpedoes and flying mines.) There was a report, almost immediately following the attack, that one of the ships was damaged above the waterline, which put the whole torpedo/mine scenario in question.

Quote:

He called reports of a mine attack "false."

Katada said the crew members also spotted an Iranian naval ship nearby, but didn't specify whether that was before or after the attacks.

The tanker survived the first attack, which hit near the engine room and was followed by another, damaging the starboard side toward the back.

Question: Were the damaged points both on the same side? Or on different sides?

Quote:

The U.S. military's Central Command said the video it released shows Iran's Revolutionary Guard removing an unexploded limpet mine from one of the tankers, suggesting Tehran sought to remove evidence of its involvement from the scene. Iran denies being involved and accuses the U.S. of waging an "Iranophobic campaign" against it.

The U.S. Navy rushed to assist the stricken vessels in the Gulf of Oman, off the coast of Iran, including one that was set ablaze Thursday by an explosion.

The operators of the Norwegian-owned MT Front Altair offered no immediate explanation of what happened to their vessel.

What the article fails to note is that Shinzo Abe, Japan's current PM, was IN IRAN when the Japanese vessel was attacked. Iran would have no interest in torpedoing (so to speak) their negotiations with Japan by attacking a Japanese ship. The timing just reeks of false flag.

This is very much like the chemical attacks in Syria: right after Obama drew a "red line" someone triggered a gas attack? Assad had nothing to gain from doing that.

Fortunately, the world seems to have become a lot more sophisticated lately about detecting these concoted events.




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, June 14, 2019 1:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Meanwhile Trump and Pompous are flogging the "Iran did it" line.

That Trump is going to take this us with the UN Security Council indicates that he isn't going to do anything about it except make political points with his Zionist contributor, Sheldon Adelson and the pro-Israel portion of his base, without pissing off his anti-war supporters. Possibly we will be treated to another dog-and-pony show al la Colin Powell, of grainy photos and random bits of metal (or something) which no one will believe, and any action will be voted down by Russia and China in the Securty Council. There will be people who believe, against all evidence, that Iran did it and that some previous action by the UN gives the USA the "right" to invade Iran, but let's hope that their idiocy doesn't rule the day.

There's a lot going on the the background. Supposedly, when Pompous went to talk to Putin about Iran many observers said Pompous emerged "pale faced". Obviously, I have no idea what was said in private, but smarter people than me have speculated that what Pompous heard was If you attack Iran we will arm your enemies: Imagine Iran with our Kaliber missiles and S-400 air defenses - any aircraft carrier or installation within 1000 miles can be destroyed ... or something like that.

I think that Trump will make a point that this event "proves" that Iran, or Russia, or even China, needs "further isolation" and will call for more unilateral sactions or more tariffs. This event might be multi-faceted goal: to raise oil prices (benefitting USA shale oil and Saudi Arabia, who need high oil prices a lot more than Russia), and to diss Russia and China ahead of the G20, before they get to diss us.

Not sure if you are aware but Trump threatened the Chinese with more tariffs if they don't show up for the G20. Now he says he doesn't care of they show up or not. HA! Xi just recently attended the St Petersburg Economic Forum, which was both unexpected and unheard-of. IMHO this means that Russia and China, rather than just independently breaking ties with the USA and hardening their economies against further USA-generated shocks, are now actively cooperating on melding China's New Silk Road with Russia's EAEU and excluding the dollar from Eurasian-bloc trade.

I'm just going to briefly mention Jim Willie's prediction of a "dual universe" world, in which trade and development occurs in two independent blocs: the "western" bloc and the Eurasian bloc. If the USD becomes excluded from Eurasian trade I'll bring it up in the "death of the dollar" thread.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 15, 2019 3:39 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by REAVERFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.
Therefore, neither does Siggy. - REAVERBOT


Hitler loved dogs.
Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.- SIX



HAHA! indeed.

I swear to god, REAVERBOT has only a few words in its vocabulary: "Nazi" "troll" and "Russia". Occasionally it veers off into new territory, like "Pppppppputin".

Hey REAVERBOT! How does it feel to be so stupid?

Here's the deal: I don't want the USA to attack ANYBODY. "Attacking" is an offensive (not defesnive) position, and violence IMHO should only be used in defense. You OTOH ... seem to want to attack everybody, not only at the national level but at the personal level.

So you're not only an abysmally stupid bot, you're an aggressive little bot too. Somebody should reprogram you.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

And this is why we know you'e a Russian troll.

Not a very bright one. That's why they assigned you to this teeny tiny site.


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Saturday, June 15, 2019 3:45 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
HA! Xi just recently attended the St Petersburg Economic Forum, which was both unexpected and unheard-of.

I've always thought that China was a fair-weather friend to Russia. So I was pretty cynical when I read reports that Xi and Putin had become allies, to all intents and purposes. I thought - just wait till China has to take some kind of hit to support or defend Russia. Then we'll see how far this really goes.

But then I read (in translation of course) the warm words Xi spoke - of mutual trust, friendship, and defense. They seemed to go FAR beyond the normally polite and non-committal Chinese officialdom-speak. They actually seemed to veer into an affirmative commitment.

Either XI has got the western talent of speaking totally meaningless words, or something significant happened.

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Saturday, June 15, 2019 3:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Putin doesn't want the US to attack Iran.
Therefore, neither does Siggy. - REAVERBOT

Hitler loved dogs.
Therefore, anyone who loves dogs is a Nazi.- SIX

HAHA! indeed.
I swear to god, REAVERBOT has only a few words in its vocabulary: "Nazi" "troll" and "Russia". Occasionally it veers off into new territory, like "Pppppppputin".
Hey REAVERBOT! How does it feel to be so stupid?
Here's the deal: I don't want the USA to attack ANYBODY. "Attacking" is an offensive (not defesnive) position, and violence IMHO should only be used in defense. You OTOH ... seem to want to attack everybody, not only at the national level but at the personal level.
So you're not only an abysmally stupid bot, you're an aggressive little bot too. Somebody should reprogram you.- SIGNY

And this is why we know you'e a Russian troll. -REAVERBOT

Because I don't want my country to be attacking every other nation on the planet????

Quote:

Not a very bright one. That's why they assigned you to this teeny tiny site.- REAVERBOT
Really? What are YOU doing here??



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 15, 2019 4:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
HA! Xi just recently attended the St Petersburg Economic Forum, which was both unexpected and unheard-of.

I've always thought that China was a fair-weather friend to Russia. So I was pretty cynical when I read reports that Xi and Putin had become allies, to all intents and purposes. I thought - just wait till China has to take some kind of hit to support or defend Russia. Then we'll see how far this really goes.

But then I read (in translation of course) the warm words Xi spoke - of mutual trust, friendship, and defense. They seemed to go FAR beyond the normally polite and non-committal Chinese officialdom-speak. They actually seemed to veer into an affirmative commitment.

Either XI has got the western talent of speaking totally meaningless words, or something significant happened.

I've felt for a long time that the Chinese were keeping one foot in each camp and would jump whichever way they thought most beneficial. "opportunist" was the term that came to mind. But I think Trump has managed to convince Xi and his bloc in the Chinese Communist Party leadership that dealing with America is a losing proposition.

And now, I see the real utility of China's One Belt One Road.

Just let me say that I originally thought it was a giant make-work project: That the Chinese leadership had hitched the Chinese wagon to the USA's market, hoping to develop the Japan and South-Korean way. IMHO 2008 really took them by surprise; they really thought that western financialists had it all figured out and they hadn't expected such a sudden and thorough collapse of their major export market. So they decided to improve their internal market by raising the middle class, but their "loose money" policy (carried out by their extensive shadow-banking system) only managed to create a lot of uber-wealthy commodity speculators (iron, aluminum etc) in the coastal cities without touching the interior. So they switched to the OBOR/ New Silk Road ... building infrastructure in other nations creates a demand for their factories' output. They seemed to be starting projects almost at random ... a series of ports begun a decade ago (String of Pearls) in Malaysia and Pakistan etc, lately pipelines to Siberia (The Power of Siberia gas pipeline), hitching up the Trans-Siberian railway to Beijing, roads and pipelines through Xinjiang (western China) Afghanistan and Pakistan and hiving off into other directions, and (most recently) working with Russia on an Arctic sea route. It almost seemed as if they were starting a dozen projects with the idea that some - if not most- were going to fail. "Let a thousand flower bloom"... but only the strong survive.

But with Trump sanctioning Iran and (worse) having the naval power to threaten the Straits of Malacca - which for China is a chokepoint as bad as the Straits of Hormuz, if not worse - China may see itself as NEEDING routes and transport that DOESN'T go thru the Malaccan straits or the South China Sea, but absolutely depending on an unsanctionable land-based route to access oil from Iran; gas oil uranium and non-ferrous minerals from Kazahksta;, water gas and food from Russia etc. Of course they still need sea routes to Africa but it looks to me like they may be digging in, willing and able to give up their world-straddling access to minerals energy and markets if necessary, and sink into the Eurasian landmass. Most of those projects which looked like random make-work suddenly looks to me like they have real purpose and utility.

Anyway, I know this is somewhat far afield from IRAN, unless China openly defies American sanctions against Iran (or, more likely, openly defies them once those land-based routes and pipelines become operational) in which case IRAN suddenly becomes relevant.

The USA's response, as usual, is to try to provoke "regime change" in troublesome countries and, failing that, open invasion. But I think both Russia and China are too smart to get dragged into war. The biggest problem that I see is that our strategic planners, knowing that China and Russia may be willing to give up a lot to avoid open warfare with the USA, may be counting on that to force more and more concessions from Russia/China and eventually push for something that they CAN'T give up and eventually start a war anyway. I guess Iwould be looking for "asymmetric" response to Trump - economic, financial, cyber, proxy, and informational responses to military/covert provocation.

It's going to be a busy summer!






-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 15, 2019 7:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Thinking about your post Signy - I think two things are going on.

1) Russia and China have been thrown into each other's arms for many years, and ... they're, finally, holding on tightly to each other. China has concluded there's no upside to dealing with the US on anything vital.

2) Trump has always had a hard-on for Iran. It was already in his campaign speeches, so this is not a new development. Combine that with Bolt-on and Pompous. And they don't seem to have learned from recent history - neither Syria nor Venezuela have so far worked the way they were intended. So I can't think of any brakes on aggressive US provocations re Iran.

WAY back when, before the 2016 election, I saw that the US might miscalculate with Russia, assuming that Russia would choose to endure an endless string of aggressions rather than risk retaliating and triggering an all-out confrontation. But there's an alternative and fearful scenario, which is that Russia might choose to respond in a limited nuclear way, that the US would have to endure, since no one wins an all-out nuclear war.

I apply the same thinking here, except Russia / China are on the same side, and it's over Iran, rather than Syria.

The problem is that the US isn't playing with a mental full deck. It seems like nobody here has rationally thought out the range of possibilities. (Either it's that, or they have and they have their little hidey-holes where they think they can all survive; and we're just so much expendable biomass.) Given that, I personally find it hard to predict what might happen. But I see it as a potentially fatal problem, to address in the next election.


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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 9:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

The problem is that the US isn't playing with a mental full deck. It seems like nobody here has rationally thought out the range of possibilities. (Either it's that, or they have and they have their little hidey-holes where they think they can all survive; and we're just so much expendable biomass.) Given that, I personally find it hard to predict what might happen. But I see it as a potentially fatal problem, to address in the next election.


1kiki, you should have kept your defining signature:
And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better? http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=62864&mid=10775
50#1077550


An election that changes the leadership from Republican to Democrat won't fix what is wrong with American voters. 70 percent of Americans now favor the United States taking an active part in world affairs. Since @ChicagoCouncil polling on that question began in 1974, the only time that number has been higher was in 2002, just after 9/11.

Americans are just as bloodthirsty as they’ve ever been. All we need is a push from a demagogish president and we’re ready to bomb the crap out of anybody.

Promoting democracy, taking on Chinese aggression, promoting trade, fighting global poverty, and defending human rights — “the core activities of building a civilized global community” — Americans have never really cared much about that stuff. We’ll tolerate a fair amount of it here and there, and of course we were always happy to use it as an excuse for various Cold War depredations — or for bombing the crap out of our enemy du jour these days — but that’s about it. I love my country, but it’s silly to pretend that we’ve ever been anything we aren’t.

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/david-brooks-has-gotten-lazy/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 10:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Trump has brilliantly cornered himself where he’s now demanding Iran abide by a deal he already reneged on.

Trump, already suffering from a serious credibility deficit with allies, is now in the awkward position of demanding that Tehran comply with an agreement Trump has not only derided, but pulled out of! “Administration officials found themselves Monday grappling with whether to press the remaining parties to the deal, including Britain, France and Germany, to demand that Iran stay in compliance,” the Associated Press reports. “They must also consider if such a stance would essentially concede that the restrictions imposed during the Obama administration, while short of ideal, are better than none.”

It’s almost like the previous administration weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision in the best strategic interest of the country. That feeling you have right now is nostalgia for competence.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 10:22 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Trump prepares to bypass Congress to take on Iran

The Trump administration and its domestic political allies are laying the groundwork for a possible confrontation with Iran without the explicit consent of Congress — a public relations campaign that was already well under way before top officials accused the Islamic Republic of attacking a pair of oil tankers last week in the Gulf of Oman.

Over the past few months, senior Trump aides have made the case in public and private that the administration already has the legal authority to take military action against Iran, citing a law nearly two decades old that was originally intended to authorize the war in Afghanistan.

www.politico.com/story/2019/06/18/trump-congress-iran-1366756

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 10:36 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Trump prepares to bypass Congress to take on Iran

The Trump administration and its domestic political allies are laying the groundwork for a possible confrontation with Iran without the explicit consent of Congress — a public relations campaign that was already well under way before top officials accused the Islamic Republic of attacking a pair of oil tankers last week in the Gulf of Oman.

Over the past few months, senior Trump aides have made the case in public and private that the administration already has the legal authority to take military action against Iran, citing a law nearly two decades old that was originally intended to authorize the war in Afghanistan.

www.politico.com/story/2019/06/18/trump-congress-iran-1366756

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly




The article continues...

In the latest sign of escalating tensions, National Security Adviser John Bolton warned Iran in an interview conducted last week and published Monday, “They would be making a big mistake if they doubted the president's resolve on this.” Acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan announced on Monday evening that the U.S. was deploying an additional 1,000 troops to the region for “defensive purposes.” And Secretary of State Mike Pompeo jetted to Tampa, home of Central Command, on Monday evening to huddle with military officials to discuss “regional security concerns and ongoing operations,” according to a State Department spokeswoman.

The developments came as Iran announced it was on course to violate a core element of its nuclear deal with major world powers, exceeding the amount of enriched uranium allowed under the agreement in 10 days unless European nations intervened to blunt the economic pain of American sanctions. And they came as U.S. officials promoted video footage and images showing what they say were Iranian forces planting explosive devices on commercial oil tankers.

Yet even as the president’s hawkish advisers have highlighted Iran’s alleged bad behavior, administration officials privately stressed that direct military action remained highly unlikely absent an Iranian attack on an American ship or an American citizen. The president, who campaigned against getting the U.S. bogged down in unnecessary foreign wars, is considered the primary internal obstacle to a counterattack, officials said, noting that Trump continues to press for an improved nuclear deal.

Trump on Monday de-emphasized the international significance of the recent tanker explosions in an interview with Time magazine — downplaying the Gulf of Oman's value to U.S. oil supplies and describing alleged Iranian acts of aggression as "very minor."

“If you look at the rhetoric now compared to the days when they were signing [the 2015 nuclear deal], where it was always ‘death to America, death to America, we will destroy America, we will kill America,’ I’m not hearing that too much anymore,” Trump told Time. “And I don’t expect to.”

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

An election that changes the leadership from Republican to Democrat won't fix what is wrong with American voters.


You see, SECONDRATE, what your problem is? You think that words are disconnected from reality, which is why you're so careless with them.

Sometimes (when it suits you) you claim that people (voters) have no effect on policy. Then at other times (when it suits you) you lay blame for bad policies on the American voter.
So, which is it?
Neither you nor your favorite political party can fix this Iran problem (or indeed ANY problem) until they figure out this conundrum.

*****

But instead of waiting for you to figure this out on your own ... because that'll take, like, forever ... I'm going to tell you the lay of the land, as I see it.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NEARLY 100% PROPAGANDIZED. Just look at how you fell for that RUSSIA!RUSSIA! disinformation campaign. It told you what you wanted to hear: TRUMP IS BAD! TRUMP IS A TRAITOR! TRUMP SHOULD BE IMPEACHED, OR SOMETHING! Your (willing) buttons were pushed and pushed and pushed with a campaign of evidence-free hyperventilating paranioa, and it worked!

If you had any intellectual integrity at all, you'd be at least quietly admitting to yourself that you'd been stampeded off an intellectual cliff because you let your extreme hatred of Republicans get the better of you but, no, you continue to make the same mistake that you castigate other Americans for making. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICANS WHO HAVE BEEN HOODWINKED INTO WANTING WAR WITH IRAN IS THE TARGET: YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA INSTEAD.

****Americans are propagandized BECAUSE they really COULD change things, if they got off their brains and thought for a change.

But that just won't do for the people in charge: They want a stupefied public who'll stand in line for 10 hours to buy the latest iPhone or bend under the yoke while their standard of living is continuously eroded into poverty-level or support the latest war or buy into WHATEVER TPTB are "selling" that day. And so the corporate M$M and the tech-giant-controlled internet continues to feed people bullshit nonstop 24/7/365 ... everything from ads to movies to series to "news" is a completely fictionalized version of the world we live in ... not much reality to be found there.

REAVERBOT, SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION!

This extends to the climate shift argument too. WHY does the government spew propaganda? WHY are people so abysmally ignorant of science or logic? (That includes YOU, my friend.) It's because it is being controlled by the monied interests that stand in the shadows.

So if you want to fix the problem, you have to fix the media. You have to get people used to being able to distinguish fact from disinformation, to ask key questions like cui bono?, to pay attention and think for more than three seconds at a time and believe me, Twitter and FB and Snapchat and Instagram aren't helping in that regard at all; I consider them to be part of the campaign to completely dumb down the population.

Quote:

People be Getting Dumber

https://spectator.org/people-be-getting-dumber/


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:09 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

An election that changes the leadership from Republican to Democrat won't fix what is wrong with American voters.


You see, SECONDRATE, what your problem is? You think that words are disconnected from reality, which is why you're so careless with them.

Sometimes (when it suits you) you claim that people (voters) have no effect on policy. Then at other times (when it suits you) you lay blame for bad policies on the American voter.
So, which is it?
Neither you nor your favorite political party can fix this Iran problem (or indeed ANY problem) until they figure out this conundrum.

Conundrum? There is nothing confusing about this in the least bit.
Fact 1): so long as there are at least 41% of Senators from the GOP, they will be able to kill any legislation the GOP dislikes. It once was at least 34%, but a rule was changed in 1975.
www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Filibuster_Clotur
e.htm


Fact 2): If you reelect a Senator who screwed you over, you will get screwed again and again for the next 6 years. Senators and, especially, Representatives know they can screw the voters and still get reelected. The majority of voters never learn, quite clearly never understanding why their wishes are ignored. It is because the majority of voters are trivially fooled by a fast talking conman in politics or business or at work:
www.opensecrets.org/overview/reelect.php

Fact 3): If the majority of voters can be talked into a stupid war, America will fight stupid wars and spend too much on the Pentagon. Remember Iraq? The reasons for war were stupid and yet the majority of voters reelected their Senators, despite it being very predictable how that war would end:
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302
612
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECONDRATE - So, the American voter CAN change policy.
Please don't bring up that whinge again about how they "can't". If you do, I'll remind you of your stated position.

Now, how do you explain why American voters so consistently vote against their own interests?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:33 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECONDRATE - So, the American voter CAN change policy.
Please don't bring up that whinge again about how they "can't". If you do, I'll remind you of your stated position.

Now, how do you explain why American voters so consistently vote against their own interests?

They don't vote against their interests, at least they don't think they are. The bigger the gap between what they think will happen and what will predictably happen explains hundreds of millions of painful failures in America. I could go on-and-on about guys I know making decisions that predictably turn out disastrously wrong in business, even ending with bankruptcy. I tell them what will happen. When it happens, several years later, they never understand how I did it. It seems like magic! I had worked the figures on paper for them, showed them the estimated profit or loss, and they still don't believe I can predict their future. Somehow, they believe that God, or willpower, or luck, or working harder, with more passion, will make them a success. I cannot save them from their poor decisions which they feel are right and I predict are wrong.

I was actually looking at two movie scripts 4 weeks agos. The writer wanted to borrow $50,000 in a promissory note to be paid back either when a script sells in the next 6 months (but guaranteed to sell by July of next year!) or 10 years from now. I loaned the money at 0% interest, but I know how this story ends with failure. I didn't want to discourage the writer by telling her it will never sell because she would tell me I can't possibly know that. I gonna have to wait 10 years before I tell her the sad truth about her scripts. But maybe she will write other scripts, better ones, and those will sell in the next decade. Only then will I be repaid the $50,000. I hope for her success. I try not to think about her predictable failure.

I'll make a prediction about Trump's Iran War. It will be a more expensive fiasco than Bush's Iraq War. Will Trump go to war in his next term? That I can't predict. Trump is too scattered brained to know what he will do two weeks from today, let alone two years from now. He might not get reelected if the majority of voters think an Iran War is in Trump's future and, more importantly, the voters remember the Iraq War.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:19 PM

REAVERFAN



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Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:20 PM

REAVERFAN



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Wednesday, June 19, 2019 9:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Now, how do you explain why American voters so consistently vote against their own interests?


Quote:

Originally posted by SECOND:
They don't vote against their interests, at least they don't think they are. The bigger the gap between what they think will happen and what will predictably happen explains hundreds of millions of painful failures in America.

Americans are exceptionally heavily propagandized, with all sorts of unhelpful aphorisms like: you just need to believe in god and in yourself; or, if you have the right attitude, the things you seek will manifest themselves in your life; or, the US is a meritocracy, so if you've failed, it's because you're a failure.

Here's a few more: American 'exceptionalism'; or systematically calling the governments of elected leaders 'regimes'.

Remember this?
Quote:

The ... system of propaganda and censorship existed not so much for the purpose of spreading a particular message as for the purpose of making learning impossible, replacing facts with mush, and handing the faceless state a monopoly on defining an ever-shifting reality.
That's us.
Quote:

I could go on-and-on about guys I know making decisions that predictably turn out disastrously wrong in business, even ending with bankruptcy. I tell them what will happen. When it happens, several years later, they never understand how I did it. It seems like magic! I had worked the figures on paper for them, showed them the estimated profit or loss, and they still don't believe I can predict their future. Somehow, they believe that God, or willpower, or luck, or working harder, with more passion, will make them a success. I cannot save them from their poor decisions which they feel are right and I predict are wrong.
But then again, that's what they've been told all their lives. It keeps them from making rational evaluations.
Quote:

He might not get reelected if the majority of voters think an Iran War is in Trump's future and, more importantly, the voters remember the Iraq War.
But voting is far more complicated than running arithmetic on someone's dreams, which you claim to be so successful at.

Many people are tribal. For example, you, and your cohorts here. If republicans are your anti-tribe, then democrats must be your tribe. Your actions more than anything else reveal you to be deeply biased, and extremely aggressive to anyone not in 'your' tribe. YOU are not rational. You are tribal. And that's why you vote for democrats. Not because they represent YOUR interests (as you so frequently remind us), but because republicans are your 'out' group.

That tribalism keeps you, and your cohorts here, from evaluating 'your' tribe - democrats - rationally.

Do you want examples? Shall I point out the many, many problems I posted regarding Hillary, the DNC, and the platform? Her historic NEGATIVE ratings, which were well-publicized? The shenanigans that went in to shoe-horning her in with the same-old business-as-usual? And most especially, the fact that she limited her message to victim-groups?

Now, rationally, that would be enough to give pause. It should have given you pause.

But, again, voting's not rational, it's mainly tribal. I think what happened was, by defining the party so closely with individual victim groups, she failed to connect with the tribalism of the larger distribution of people. Hence, she lost in a number of states where people didn't identify with the tribes she claimed to represent.


BTW - I'll make a prediction. JUST LIKE the prediction I made in the last election, this one won't be about firing up the established tribe. It'll be about which group has the fewest people running way from it. Democrats should think about that. Because impeachment pitches well to the tribe, but not to people outside of it.






And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Thursday, June 20, 2019 8:17 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:




Bernie Sanders couldn't dismantle a piece of IKEA furniture.

Funny, since AOC can't put a piece of IKEA furniture together.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, June 20, 2019 8:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECONDRATE - So, the American voter CAN change policy.
Please don't bring up that whinge again about how they "can't". If you do, I'll remind you of your stated position.
Now, how do you explain why American voters so consistently vote against their own interests?- SIGNY

They don't vote against their interests, at least they don't think they are. - SECOND

Well, give a prize to Captain Obvious! IF COURSE they don't think they are! Hardly anybody ever says ... I'm going to shoot myself in the foot ... or the heart ... because I just want to be a doofus!

Quote:

The bigger the gap between what they think will happen and what will predictably happen ... SECOND
Oh, like with you and Vietnam? [/snark]

Quote:

explains hundreds of millions of painful failures in America.- SECOND
Well, explain YOUR painful failure. It might help you to understand the painful failures of others.

Quote:

I could go on-and-on about guys I know making decisions that predictably turn out disastrously wrong in business, even ending with bankruptcy. I tell them what will happen. When it happens, several years later, they never understand how I did it. It seems like magic! I had worked the figures on paper for them, showed them the estimated profit or loss, and they still don't believe I can predict their future. Somehow ...
Yes, "Somehow".

Quote:

they believe
KEY WORD

Quote:

that God, or willpower, or luck, or working harder, with more passion, will make them a success. I cannot save them from their poor decisions which they feel are right and I predict are wrong.
More on that later. Another key word: Psychologists

Quote:

I'll make a prediction about Trump's Iran War. It will be a more expensive fiasco than Bush's Iraq War. Will Trump go to war in his next term? That I can't predict. Trump is too scattered brained to know what he will do two weeks from today, let alone two years from now. He might not get reelected if the majority of voters think an Iran War is in Trump's future and, more importantly, the voters remember the Iraq War.
Well, there you are: Hoping that we don't wind up in a predicable failure!


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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