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Originally posted in another thread by Someone Enormously Clever:
With our military superiority, we effectively hold the entire world hostage to our good will. Is that too difficult to understand? It's like the old good cop/bad cop ploy. The bare fact of our military power which we have demonstrated regularly around the world since Hiroshima, is the "bad cop" that stands in the back of the room at the ready, observing, while we "spread liberty and justice."

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
How about it? What do you all make of this statement?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
How about it? What do you all make of this statement?

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The guy's a fruitcake. He deserves nothing less then our contempt.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
The guy's a fruitcake. He deserves nothing less then our contempt.

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Insightful words of Abu Hamza:
Bin Laden is a good guy. Everyone likes him in the Muslim world, there is nothing wrong with the man and his beliefs.
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I say go and do it (steal), take shoot and loot.

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More insights by Abu Hamza:
"These missions would increase the number of satellites for military purposes. It would increase the slavery of governance of other countries by America. It is a punishment from God. Muslims see it that way. It is a trinity of evil because it carried Americans, an Israeli and a Hindu, a trinity of evil against Islam. The fact that the motor of the craft fell on Palestine - all these are messages from God. It is a strong message, for the Israeli, to be taken up there to space and he spoke about the Holocaust, to try to make religious advancement from it and gain some moral high ground, hence you have seen this message over Palestine."

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Though the Islamic fundies passionately disapprove of our culture, the salient point at all times seems to be our military presence. And yet y'all just gloss over that as irrelevant. Why?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is control of the Middle East they want, and right now our military power stands in their way, and that’s why they have such a problem with our military presence.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I just think that not everyone puts as much faith in appeasement as you do.

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After we allow men who saw the heads off of screaming innocent victims to dictate American and British foreign policy by withdrawing our military support from our allies and interests in the Middle East, then what?

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Should we hand them Israel as well and let them finish what Hitler couldn’t? Should we hand them Kuwait? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? It is control of the Middle East they want, and right now our military power stands in their way, and that’s why they have such a problem with our military presence. I don't want Al Zawahiri dictating American power.

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original post by HKCavalier:
Whenever I hear from the Islamic fundies about America and the west, the central focus always seems to be what they consider to be our militarism and imperialism.
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But y'all keep saying they hate us because of our culture.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Okay, help me out here. Whenever I hear from the Islamic fundies about America and the west, the central focus always seems to be what they consider to be our militarism and imperialism. Take the two examples given in this thread, for instance. Time and time again, they talk about our presence in the Middle East being unacceptable and hostile to them--blood on our hands, etc.

But y'all keep saying they hate us because of our culture. There are plenty of fundamentalist Christians in this country who hate mainstream American culture as well. They've said some pretty hateful things in their time. That's what fundamentalists do. They're not the most tolerant folk.

Though the Islamic fundies passionately disapprove of our culture, the salient point at all times seems to be our military presence. And yet y'all just gloss over that as irrelevant. Why?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Originally posted by fivver:
Actually HK, Finn is asking some very cogent questions. Ones you seem unwilling or unable to deal with.

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And while I agree with you that the Hitler analogy is used way too often in this case it's apt...When Hitler occupied Poland again England and France did nothing except delude themselves that would appease Hitler and bring 'peace in our time'. We all know how well that worked.

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I'd like to echo Finn's questions. Once we've pulled our forces out of the Mideaset do we sell the people of Afghanistan and Iraq back into slavery and allow Israel to be destroyed? And HK do you really think it will stop there?

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
It seems to me that the west did'nt have much of a military presence in the area until the first gulf war. After that, it was not a huge number at all, and they were stationed in Saudi Arabia for the most part, at the Saudis request.

Their hate of the West (The U.S. in particular) started long before the Gulf War(s).

How long have the fundamentalists been referring to us as the "Great Satan"?

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original post by fivver:
When Hitler occupied Poland again England and France did nothing except delude themselves that would appease Hitler and bring 'peace in our time'

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
It seems to me that the west did'nt have much of a military presence in the area until the first gulf war. After that, it was not a huge number at all, and they were stationed in Saudi Arabia for the most part, at the Saudis request.

Their hate of the West (The U.S. in particular) started long before the Gulf War(s).

How long have the fundamentalists been referring to us as the "Great Satan"?

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Barnstormer, I'm guessing you were born in the '80's. This is not a swipe, it's just that even stuff that happened in '79 would be part of the mythic past to you if you were, but to me, it's recent history.

"Great Satan" is a translation of the Koranic Eblis (I think that's how it's spelled), so there aren't any "lesser Satans," it's just the Big Bad's title. It was during the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 that it was first used to describe the U.S. specifically, not as a response to our decadent culture, mind you, but as a response to our support for the Shah.

The Persian world, like the Russian world before them, have had a love/hate relationship with Western Europe from the beginning. People over there decry the erosion of their traditions by Western influences. It's been that way everywhere on the planet. Even within our own nation. Everybody loves Shakespeare, nobody loves Coca-cola. Everybody hates the automobile until they have one of their own.

Ayatollah Khomeini is the closest thing to a Hitler they've had over there. Some student admirers of his took the American Embassy in Tehran hostage for 444 days, not because we were decadent western infidels, but because we would not give the Shah over to them to stand trial. During Khomeini's reign, Iran tried to get its neighbors to follow their lead with Islamic Revolutions of their own. They didn't really get very far. Secular Iraq attacked them and they were too busy fighting a war for ten years to bother anyone else. Then Khomeini died and since then the Islamic Republic of Iran has been slowly, but surely, falling apart. Fascist movements don't do so well after their leader dies. Just a for instance that I know about: it's against the law to have a Satellite dish in your home in Tehran. It wouldn't do for a fascist state to allow its people access to news and information from the outside world, right? Doesn't stop half the people there from owning satelite dishes today. The cops don't enforce half the laws set down during the Khomeini days. Things are changing over there all on their own.

So, yeah, we better stop this juggernaut before they take over the world!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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original post by BarnStormer:
It seems to me that the west did'nt have much of a military presence in the area until the first gulf war. After that, it was not a huge number at all, and they were stationed in Saudi Arabia for the most part, at the Saudis request.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

We seem to have drifted way off topic here.

When I started this thread, I was pointing out that one of those compasionate clerics in Britian actually said he was doing evil deeds.

Slip of the tongue? Or not?

I just thought it was funny, in a not very funny sort of way.

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Originally posted by fivver:
Actually HK, Finn is asking some very cogent questions. Ones you seem unwilling or unable to deal with. And while I agree with you that the Hitler analogy is used way too often in this case it's apt. In the 1930s England and France were the military powers on the planet. The German military was crippled by the treaty of Versailles (sp?). When Hitler came to power he ignored the treaty and rearmed - kind of like Saddam's ignoring the UN resolutions. England and France did nothing. When Hitler occupied Poland again England and France did nothing except delude themselves that would appease Hitler and bring 'peace in our time'. We all know how well that worked.

I'd like to echo Finn's questions. Once we've pulled our forces out of the Mideaset do we sell the people of Afghanistan and Iraq back into slavery and allow Israel to be destroyed? And HK do you really think it will stop there?

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