The Yin and Yang of it all: Class, be seated. by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Yin and Yang of it all: Class, be seated.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, May 27, 2024 05:25
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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:52 AM

This thread is respectfully dedicated to Lynchaj, a good person whom we like, but in need of lessons in duality.

No governments are entirely 'good', and few governments are entirely 'bad'. Recognizing our own mistakes makes stronger, not weaker. And there is always room for improvement.

Right and left wings are part of a whole, and balance is the desired state.

Gentlepeople, please begin a discourse.

Let us unite(I hope) Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:28 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
No governments are entirely 'good', and few governments are entirely 'bad'. Recognizing our own mistakes makes stronger, not weaker. And there is always room for improvement.

I tend to agree with this (except maybe about Zimbabwe. Can't see any good there at all). Things get learned and mistakes get corrected over time - and a democracy, I think, has an edge in doing this. We even got rid of Prohibition. Other bad ideas will bite the dust sooner or later.

Unfortunately, I doubt several of our regular contributors consider the USA as good enough to make even the "not entirely bad" category. We'll see.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:18 AM

Frankly I have to admire his stubbornness.

Maybe if the discourse was not at an 'America has been the root of all evil in the world since the K-T extinction forward' level...

I mean those dinosaurs deserved it.

Fivver

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I doubt several of our regular contributors consider the USA as good enough to make even the "not entirely bad" category. We'll see.

In just the last few posts on another thread I wittnessed many pro-American sentiments.
Taken as a whole this is a great country. The main problem here is that attention is generally brought to our problems, and we focus on them, and dwell upon them to the point that it would seem that this country is nothing but one BIG problem. Good things routinely take a back seat to negative issues that many would say need need immediate correction; it's the nature of the beast. If you have a splinter in your toe, you focus on that prior to taking a brisk and healthful walk.
Example: the Muslim world , IMHO, is made up up mostly good people. If there is a general contempt of the west for attempting to control their region, it is brought about in the same way as a general contempt of a religion that would foster the mentality to let terrorists flourish. Both views are propelled by a small number of extremists on both sides, with the majority of good bystanders caught in the propaganda cross fire, and the decisions by even fewer that result in tragic loss of life.
This is where the lack of balance lies, the faulty belief that 'we' are good, and 'they' are bad. There is no such easily definable 'line'.
No person or government is good by their very nature, goodness comes in the striving to be good.

A whole post without a funny...Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
Maybe if the discourse was not at an 'America has been the root of all evil in the world since the K-T extinction forward' level...

No, no, not here, please, this thread is about exploring balance; the truth is, fear is the root of all evil; being too afraid to see ourselves for who and what we are, and not just what we want to be. Take any horrible act by anyone, any country, big or small, and the cause can almost always be traced back to fear.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself. It's so true. When we as a world can come closer to dropping fear as any kind of a motivator, we will begin to come together as one world. Creative imagination should be our motivating force.

Damn, I picked a hard topic to work a funny into Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:46 AM

I dunno, pretty nasty things can be done through greed. Fear is probably a major factor, and one often used to motivate people in the direction the greedy wish them to go...

Eagerly awaiting the Funny, Citizen-isall

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
I mean those dinosaurs deserved it.

Yeah, well, those dinosaurs did have a real facist-darwinian type of government, so 'em.

Ahh, I feel better Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I dunno, pretty nasty things can be done through greed. Fear is probably a major factor, and one often used to motivate people in the direction the greedy wish them to go...

Isn't greed just the unreasonable and magnified fear of loss, of being a loser? The fear that 'they' will see you for the hollow, lifeless, joyless jerk that you are? An overcompensation for that dark and fear based core?
I have a hard time believing that truly greedy people sleep well without medication, or a good psychosis.

Chrisisall of the Southdown Abbey

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I dunno, pretty nasty things can be done through greed. Fear is probably a major factor, and one often used to motivate people in the direction the greedy wish them to go...

Not to get to deep into the psychobabble, but isn't greed really motivated by fear? Maybe that's too indirect, but I see it. I mean the whole idea for accumulating wealth in the first place is as a cushion against the elements, right? Isn't that what comfort and joy is utlimately about - being secure in the knowledge you won't be starving or eaten by bears anytime soon?

Most people I know who are compulsively driven to make money seem to have a kind of insecure streak about them. It's never enough you know?

Just a thought.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:58 AM

Chrisisall, I want to take your Muslim example and run with it a bit... When the towers fell on 9/11 the horror, repugnance, anger and tears were universal - including in the Muslim world. You are right, all the vast majority of Muslims want is to live their lives, raise their kids to fear and love God and spoil their grandkids. Unfortunately, their religion has been hijacked and is being defined by the extremists.

Those people are no more representative of the Muslim faith than Eric Rudolph is of Christianity (bombing abortion clincs for God). The difference is that here we can denounce and punish people that would misuse what what we hold dear. In the Muslim world, the extremists pull the strings.

If the situation can be changed so that these ordinary folk are in charge of their government, faith and destiny then I have nothing but optmism for the future. This is what I think we are trying to achieve in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Oops 6 oclock and time to go home.
Fivver

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:00 PM

Great minds think alike, ChrisIsAll....

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:03 PM

I suppose, but I think thats boiling it down to much...
I think of greed as more of a compulsion to gain wealth, rather than a fear of losing it...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Most people I know who are compulsively driven to make money seem to have a kind of insecure streak about them. It's never enough you know?

EXACTLY! Better than I said it!

Loss for linguistics Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
The difference is that here we can denounce and punish people that would misuse what what we hold dear. In the Muslim world, the extremists pull the strings.

While I agree with most of your thoughtful post, I feel there will always be those who are economically and politically protected from punishment, not just here, everywhere. One of the imbalances...

But knowledge of an imbalance is the first step toward acheiving homeostasis.

Tech-talk Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I think of greed as more of a compulsion to gain wealth, rather than a fear of losing it...

A compulsion, yes. Born of...?
Not anger.
Not happieness.
Not contentment.

Doesn't fear seem to fit?

Chrisisall who needs Perfessergee for socio-backup

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
...But knowledge of an imbalance is the first step toward acheiving homeostasis.

I always suspected you were part of the homostasis agenda! People like you won't rest until you foisted your perverted lifestyle on mainstream America.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:26 PM

Possibly, but I always thought of greed as an emotion in its own right...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I always suspected you were part of the homostasis agenda!

lol, okay, you got the first funny in that was actually funny.

Take my six year old son, he's a great kid. Today I took him on the bumper boats at the park (we don't get to do that as often as I'd like), and he was being a total brat. His mom is on a trip, and he hasn't seen her in 2 weeks. What's wrong? Fear - fear of not seein' his mom again. I told him she'll be back tomorrow, but kids don't always believe adults (we tell them so much crap), and the feeling is welling up inside him so close to her return. And he's being 'bad' because of it.
And I only realized this just now because of starting this thread!!

Dummy Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I always thought of greed as an emotion in its own right...

I remember times when I was greedy about something (particularly as a child), and always remember an angst associated with it, like the feeling I would never get to have or do this again, it seemed fear-based to me...

Child psychologist Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:11 PM

Hmm, I've never really felt that overwhemingly greedy for something... So maybe I don't really have a clue...
Maybe fear is associated to it...
But the more you boil things down the closer you'll get to basic emotions like fear.
At the end of the day, most of what we do comes down to survival of the species...

Self-preservation and procreation...

Wishes he got to do a bit more of the latter, Citizen-isall

...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:41 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tossing in a comment about human motivation.... I'm not a psychologist but I can guarantee WHATEVER trait you pick (acquisitiveness, hairiness, colon length) you will ALWAYS find people who are three standard deviations from the norm. Always. So some people will be greedy because, ya know, they're compulsive about acqusition. In fact, there was an interesting book written about the psychological profile of the robber barons (including Bill Gates

) and they all had similar profile: asocial in the extreme, isolated from family and friends, tended to regard money as a "marker" in a game not an end to itself, hyperfocused on winning the game (as they defined it), had compulsive habits (Bill used to bob at the table so badly he almost banged his head on it... I guess he's taking medicine for that now!) etc. It's how society reacts to these people that's an issue. It's possible that deviants in certain areas (money, politics, religion) will always tend to warp society in their favor because they have more of the "lever that moves the world" in their hands. (Whereas deviants who love rubber galoshes remain plain deviants because rubber galoshes are not much of a lever.)

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
I think the key to a successful relationship is to highlight the good, try ignore the bad, and live with the rest as best you can.

I appreciate your love of this country, I love it too. But to 'try to ignore the bad' is a recipe for unpleasantness. Did our founding fathers try to ignore the bad? If you had an infection, would you ignore it? Problems need to be addressed, so the greatness of this, or any other land, can be secured.
That was the point of this thread.
Thanks for posting, Andrew.
Good night.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Take care of your country because she is taking care of you, even if you don't know it.

Andrew Lynch

Fair enough, AJ. But we (the people so quick to disparage the US) ARE our country. And we're taking care to keep her on the right course, even if you don't know it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
One of my all time favorite quotes:

Quote:

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

-Barry Goldwater

This is fascinating, because Goldwater is a hero of mine and this is one of my favorite quotes. But I'm guessing we see it's implications to current events very differently.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
But I'm guessing we see it's implications to current events very differently.

Very differently, indeed. Eras must alter the perception of literal meaning... or maybe that quote is more open to interpretation than I thought...
This quote would seem, to me, to contradict much of what the Bush administration is all about!?!
(Suddenly, I feel the need to watch Star Trek VI again, heh, heh.)

I remember Goldwater from my childhood, I took you to be much younger than I, is you old like me?
Remember 'That which does not kill you, makes you stronger'? There's all manner of interpretations for that, left, right, and center.(please pardon my Conan/philosophy reference)

Again, two views, neither totally wrong or right. The essence of Ying and Yang.

I'm lovin' it.
(Uh-oh, is MacDonald's gonna sue me for usin' that line?)

Late night Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:22 PM

My esteemed correspondent Chrisisall has asked that I comment on his latest provocation. Damned guy, he just keeps jabbing his pointed stick into…..into….into…… Well hell, he just insists on identifying important points of debate. I hope he remembers what happens to the messenger

…..

So how on Earth does one get to the balance of yin and yang in the era of hyper-polarized debate? On these very boards we’ve got those who can brook no suggestion that the US (and its current administration) can have committed any mistakes, let alone have committed any malfeasance, with respect to either domestic or foreign events. You’ve all seen those arguments – they are not remotely subtle in stating that those who hold any dissenting view are a bunch of America-hating pinko terrorist-lovers, and worst of all “liberals”.

Sidebar commentary: I think it’s deliciously ironic that the advocates of the most conservative economic policies are the neo-liberals. (Think on that one – do you know what the word “liberal” means?).

On the other hand, there are other folk on these boards who strongly suggest that the domestic and foreign policy of the US over the last couple of decades (or last century, depending upon whom you talk to) is purely a matter of corporate economic or political self-interest. That the US doesn’t give much of a rip about the rest of the world and only seeks its own best outcomes. And that those who fail to see this are ignorant and socially deprived.

So dammit, who’s right? Well, IMHO, anybody who insists that his/her viewpoint is infallibly correct had better be god and had better be able to prove it. The rest of us are waiting. And in the meantime we’ll go on debating………..

Of course my own views are not subject to any of the above…………

perfessergee

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Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by perfessergee:
So how on Earth does one get to the balance of yin and yang in the era of hyper-polarized debate?

One way I can think of is to imagine yourself as a man in another part of the world. You have a wife and small child. Times are tough, and you can't provide for them very well. Your religion is some comfort, but doesn't help feed your baby. You're told over and over that all this is the fault of a country on the other side of the planet, a country that hates you. As you slip into depression and self-loathing, a holy man (?) comes to you and explains a way out; bring yourself and some others to God tomorrow, where you can wait for your wife and child whom they will take care of, and help strike a blow for freedom from this evil empire which has oppressed your family and your nation.

Okay, not to excuse anyone, but maybe to see how someone could be tricked into strapping a bomb to his chest and walking into a bus or building. The more we can humanize what we fear, the more we can understand our 'enemy', the less of an intangible 'monster' they become. Just people, like ourselves, subject to being lied to and manipulated, albeit on a much different level.

Maybe see a little of the 'us in the 'them'.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:27 PM

Thanks for the link, Goldwater was a doozy, all right. I liked him best in the 80's, where he was hard to predict.
We need more conservatives like that.

And I was talkin' about Sarge's age, not yours (you're somewhere between twenty-two and fifty-one, I'm guessin'

).

I can guess your weight, too Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks for the link, Goldwater was a doozy, all right. I liked him best in the 80's, where he was hard to predict.
We need more conservatives like that.

And I was talkin' about Sarge's age, not yours (you're somewhere between twenty-two and fifty-one, I'm guessin').

I can guess your weight, too Chrisisall

I'm 41, Chris. And I agree about the 80's. His political philosophy really matured when he saw how badly his ideas could be twisted in the hands of the religious right.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:44 PM

Also, for the record. Right wingers often like to drop the 'L' word into conversations to give them the appearance of independent thought. It's frustrating for me because I've spent a good chunk of my life passively and actively supporting the Libertarian Party and its ideology.

These people are NOT libertarians. Don't be fooled by the Rovist "Black is White" doublespeak. They're not even 'conservative libertarians'. The epitome of the 'conservative libertarian' is the Republican Representative from Texas, Ron Paul. He speaks out against Bush's policies in the GWOT and Iraq regularly. Here's an example:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul262.html

There are many others examples of his ideas out there.

As far as the Libertarian Party proper, you can find their official position on Iraq here:

http://www.lp.org/media/article_160.shtml

I just wanted to clear the mud a little regarding what it means to be 'libertarian'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:51 PM

Since we're bein' all plain about it, I was born the year before the first dude went up into space.

Yeah, it's kinda interesting when a conservative has an open mind (or when a liberal has a closed one

:).

Even more interesting when a Limbaugh fan has a mind Chrisisall
EDIT: Ooops! I'm losing my 'balance' again...

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks for the link, Goldwater was a doozy, all right. I liked him best in the 80's, where he was hard to predict.
We need more conservatives like that.

Quote:
I'm 41, Chris. And I agree about the 80's. His political philosophy really matured when he saw how badly his ideas could be twisted in the hands of the religious right.

Personally, I've been thinking for some while that Barry must be spinning in his grave like a top to see what's become of his movement. He was greatly dismayed (to say the least) before he died, and it hasn't gotten any better. One can only imagine what he'd have said about the "patriot act". I'd bet he'd borrow a line from Samuel Johnson ("patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - though Boswell's account suggests that Johnson was talking about the frothy, publicly-avowed kind, as opposed to the real patriotism of someone like BG).

In keeping with the theme of this thread, Goldwater had a kind of personal balance - he defended everyone's freedom. Gay, straight, white, black or green with purple polka dots. Of course he also demanded personal responsibility, but he expected that of everyone too.

perfessergee

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Friday, August 19, 2005 3:53 PM

Okie dokie. I just wanted to make it clear your ideas don't represent the Libertarian Party or legitimate libertarian Republicans like Ron Paul. Thanks for clarifying that you've 'moved on'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 19, 2005 5:36 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

ALL ABOUT TORTURE

I'm guessing the majority of people here have never been tortured, and have never committed torture. So we're all just arm-chair warriors on this issue. But anyway, I'll chime in with things I *think* I know about torture.

1) Effectiveness of torture: The average person, when confronted with a sufficient amount of discomfort for a sufficient length of time, will tell you what you want to know (or, at least, what you want to hear.) There will be people at both extremes. There will be those who will never talk, and there will be those who talk even with little or no torture. I don't buy into the commonly held belief by the anti-torture crowd that torture isn't effective at gaining cooperation. If you drive a corkscrew into my privates, I'll probably tell you anything you want to know. I'll probably feel guilty about it. Later.

2) Usefulness of torture: So, you can eventually break someone. Yippee. How useful is that? Well, my understanding is that soldiers are actually told that they can 'break' under interrogation after a few days have passed. Why? Because once you've been confirmed captured, any knowledge you have will be quickly made useless. Plans will be re-drawn. Pending operations will be completed or changed. There is very little spectacular knowledge that the average soldier holds in a war. What little spectacular knowledge he has, will likely expire quickly. Intelligence goes sour faster than milk.

So, given these two factors, would I torture? Not usually. I would have to believe that someone had some unlikely spectacular knowledge for me to go ahead and torture them. I mean, it would have to be like an episode of "24" where I need to know where the nuke is and I need to know now. This isn't common. It's not even particularly likely. Therefore, torture should be so rare that we never hear of it. When it happens, it should be part of a secret operation of doom and the person who was tortured should probably not ever see the light of day. I mean, if it's not THAT serious, then why are you torturing them at all? If it is THAT serious, why am I hearing about it? Ought to be classified and concealed up the yin yang.

Finally, my definition of torture: Discomfort applied to a subject in an effort to obtain a desired result.

This makes the schoolyard bully, who twists your arm in order to get you to cough up your lunch money, a torturer.
It also makes a wrestler a torturer.

The schoolyard bully is a criminal torturer. He inflicts torture on an innocent victim for his own pleasure or benefit.

The wrestler is a sportsman torturer. His opponent and he agreed to enter into a friendly game of mutual torture to see who could torture whom to the greatest effect.

So, what is the soldier who tortures another soldier for information? It depends on the unlikely presence of a ticking nuke somewhere.

And that's really how I see things.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:03 AM

FANTASTICLAUGHINGFAIRY

I just think - of course, EVERY government has it's own problems, but most of them actually bring us many benefits. I may, at the moment, detest Tony Blair and George Bush with a fiery passion, but that doesn't mean everything they do is wrong. OK, the NHS may be terrible, and I may be thoroughly against the war, but they have done some good things. I can't think of any RIGHT now. But I'm sure there's some.
OK - I may not be coming across as the most intelligent person ever right now, but that's mainly my language skills (or lack of) - which I blame entirely on my mad hatter of an English teacher. My point here is, YES governments do bad things, but as long as they change, fine, or if they don't, vote them out! The wonders of democracy! I see where this point fails when it comes to Zimbabwe, but that isn't a democracy - is it?

These are my thoughts as best as I can voice them (well some of them anyway).
If you don't like them - vote me out! - FLF

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fantasticlaughingfairy:
they have done some good things. I can't think of any RIGHT now. But I'm sure there's some.

You neo-leftys, always with the backhanded compliment!

So, the Yin and Yang of government is that the pendulum can swing to extremes, but it can always be brought back with the power of the vote?

And no, I don't think Zimbabwe is a Democracy...
You're a corker, FLF.

Chrisisall Guevarra

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

We have been on different ends of many issues - imagine my surprise at being in complete agreement with everything you posted. And let me add - WELL SAID !

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:26 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Thanks, Rue. Sometimes my logic tracks right across belief systems. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

AnthonyT- I read your post on torture. I find it insightful and useful. Thanks.

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Monday, May 27, 2024 5:25 AM

A very Eastern way to look at it all, Taoism or Daoism characterized as both a philosophy and a religion.

Dialogue and Transformation: Buddhism in Asian Philosophy
https://www.columbia.edu/cu/weai/exeas/resources/glossary-buddhism-asi
an-philosophy.html

Experiencing one of Tokyo’s biggest religious festivals
https://mb.com.ph/2024/5/25/experiencing-one-of-tokyo-s-biggest-religi
ous-festivals
The Sanja Matsuri is one of the three largest Shinto celebrations

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Musk Announces Plan To Buy MSNBC And Turn It Into A News Network
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:39 - 2 posts

In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Sun, November 24, 2024 23:35 - 4763 posts

Punishing Russia With Sanctions
Sun, November 24, 2024 18:05 - 565 posts

human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
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Elections; 2024
Sun, November 24, 2024 16:24 - 4799 posts

US debt breaks National Debt Clock
Sun, November 24, 2024 14:13 - 33 posts

The mysteries of the human mind: cell phone videos and religiously-driven 'honor killings' in the same sentence. OR How the rationality of the science that surrounds people fails to penetrate irrational beliefs.
Sun, November 24, 2024 13:11 - 18 posts

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