The violence and looting of New Orleans: what does that tell... by chrisisall

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The violence and looting of New Orleans: what does that tell...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, September 5, 2005 15:27
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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:48 PM

Hello people, I know I haven't posted on this yet and so maybe I'm not entitled, but some of this thread has appalled me.

And surprisingly it wasn't just the disaster that has appalled me.

I myself am British and don't really like Bush, BUT that doesn't mean that I have the right to go around and insult everyone who does. No matter how the Democrat supporters try and put it Bush has the support of about 50% of Americans and they can't all be gullible and stupid!

I agree that responsibility issues need to be asked, but they need to be asked in a much calmer way, otherwise they will not be listened to.

I just hope that this doesn't mark the start of a different trend on these boards because I think the stark differences of opinion is what makes these boards so good.

Pog

We may experience some slight turbulence and then explode...

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:34 AM

G1223

Just because you cannot understand that there are people in this world who need to be killed. They will not live within the social contract that the rest of us expect others as well ourselves to live within.

If the life of a killer is somehow sacred and it is not to be taken by the state. What of his victim(s)? What will you do when the killer escapes prison and kills while he outside the walls? Were those victims not worth protecting?

But today to but a man to death he must be convicted of 1st degree murder. He must have deliberatly carried out the act. Otherwise they would be charged with a lesser degree of murder or manslaughter. Then they must sentenced after a second trial to death.

Look at Scott Peterson. He killed his wife and unborn child. He deliberatly tried to make the act look like someone else had done it.

Timothy McVeigh deliberately blew up a building killing a number of people including children.

Sometimes the crime is too monsterous to allow for the chance that such a person can escape. Or that the only reasonable thing to do is put that killer to death.

TANSTAAFL

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:39 AM

CITIZEN

Right so killing people is reasonable, as long as its state sponsored is it?
Please don't confuse not understanding with not believing, I understand that YOU amongst others believe its okay to kill people if their subhuman nasty men, if I disagree that doesn't mean I don't understand some obvious truth, btw.

But then I keep forgetting two wrongs do make a right, don't they.

And if the death penalty is such a great deterrent, such a fantastic way of dealing with violent criminals, how come Texas has more murders per head of population than the rest of America? How come America itself has more murders per head than Britain that has no death penalty?

And since you want to post extreme cases as justification hows this:

Quote:
Senator Leahy:
Our nation this week reached an infamous milestone: 100 known – and goodness only knows how many unknown – cases of people being sentenced to death, since the reinstatement of capital punishment, for crimes they did not commit.

Quote:
MSNBC:
ST. LOUIS - Citing grave concerns that Missouri executed an innocent man, a coalition that includes a congressman, high-profile lawyers and even the victim’s family pointed to evidence Tuesday that they said could clear Larry Griffin’s name.

Prosecutors have decided to reopen the case of Griffin, who was convicted in 1981 in the murder of Quintin Moss, a 19-year-old drug dealer who was shot to death. Griffin maintained his innocence to the end, but was put to death in 1995.

Now, many people, including some members of Moss’ family, believe him.

EDIT:
This is way off topic however, and I don't think we should drag this thread off topic. If you wish to discuss this further it may be better if we start another thread.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:48 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Chris, hey, you should do a quick check of a person's posting record before you go off on 'em. InevitableB, is a post-bush supporter. He faught in Bush's war and came home very disillusioned. His story is pretty gritty and heartbreaking. I think coming to the board is painful to him on a personal level. Chris, check before you judge, amigo.

IB, I'm always glad to hear from you, no matter what the reason.

Thanks for that.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:32 AM

CHRISISALL

Chrisisall has been replaced by an angry pod person, it's been said.

I appologize to everyone, especially InevitableB, for my mean-ness.

Thousands dead in 911, more in the Iraq war, and probably as many in this latest disaster. My head is spinning as to how any administration can evade scrutiny and responsibility when people die in these numbers, and I'm afraid, growing up with the Vietnam war on tv every day of my young life, that in my mind America is coming to mean the land of the expendable human being.

Okay, I'm depressed, too. But that's not an excuse.

Thanks, HK and IB for the virtual 'slap', I needed that.

Bush is still on my hollow of spirit list, but I don't need to drag myself down to that level.

I'll post again when I have something more constructive to say, or maybe with the funny, but I've ranted and spewed enough.

Again, sorry for the mean.

Not as humble as he should be Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There are currently two other first-world areas dealing with relatively high water levels compared to ground - Venice, Italy and The Netherlands (The 'Low'lands). (There are other areas already dealing with rising oceans like Bangladesh and the island of Tuvalu, but they aren't relevant examples for the US.)

Before people decide to give up on NO or rebuild, it might be instructive to look at how The Netherlands and Venice deal with their situation, critical factors to consider, and the decisions they are making.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 6:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Chrisisall,

You are filled with admirable rage; as ALL normal people should be who can see beyond skin color, status, age and self-justifying ideologies. For you, no man is an island.

No one, NO ONE, should have been left to die.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 6:40 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by G1223:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

And after all the justice system is so infallible no innocent will be put to death while the guilty go free.
After all, no one can change

True people change. I am sure the man who rapes then kills a child feels very sorry and repentent when caught.Want to put a young family memeber where this sort can get at him? I know I do not.

Yes a man changes and not always for the better.

TANSTAAFL

Oh I really am sick and tired of hearing that BS argument. Well not wanting to execute people like some medieval despot means I must want my familly raped and murdered yeah yeah yeah cause that logically follows.
And the fact that some people change for the worse means you should execute everyone does it?

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

Let me throw this in :

I for one am in favour of capital punishment :

but I know I don't think that the Canadian legal system is up to the standards I would require for such policy.........

and I know I don't think the American system is

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Monday, September 5, 2005 8:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm angry too. They should have had pallets of MREs and medical equipment and water-purifying equipment (not bottled water that costs a fortune but water purifying equipment that the military USED to use before KB&R got in the act) ready to go, staged in Texas.

The problem with setting up centralized water purification stations is getting the water out to the people who need it. There aren't enough to put one within easy walking distance of everyone. You'd have to put it in bottles anyway for it to be useful. Much easier to deliver pre-bottled water until the infrastructure gets back in place.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 8:55 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And that's why they used water-tankers in Iraq - because it was so inefficient and costly.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 9:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The problem with setting up centralized water purification stations is getting the water out to the people who need it.

Geezer- you have to centralize distribution anyway- tents, medicine, food, toilets... It's not generally a case of delivering water to the doorstep (except where you are literally dropping food and water on rooftops). Do you have any other criticisms of my observations?

BTW- I didn't want this to get lost in the other thread. It appears that FEMA was supposed to be in charge as of Sept 27th. But they didn't deliver to coordination, causing local agencies to delay their own efforts. Not only that, I've read several reports from various sources where FEMA shut down independent aide from the Red Cross, Walmart, the Coast Guard, Jefferson Parish police etc. And at least one of Blanco's requests for National Guard assistance from another state was held up in Washington from Aug 27th or 28th to Sept 3. Also, I was looking at who has authority to do what- clearly, the Federal government wins ahnds down because not only did it have authority (through FEMA) to coordinate aid, it also has authority to essentially commandeer civilian airplanes and trains, and to call on the military. Nagin had control of the city buses and bus drivers. I suppose he MIGHT have taken control of school buses, but wouldn't be able to compel school bus drivers because (if NO is like LA) the city does not control the school system. As far as doing house to house- that would be up to the city police, and I suppose the National Guard if there were enough to go around. Blanco did everything I thought she could and should do- re-route the roads, request Fedeal assistance, activate the LA National Guard and request assistance from other state Nationl Guards. It looks to me like Nagin and Blanco were kind of trapped by FEMA. People are still dying but ....

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 9:59 AM

ARIELLA

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
The problem with setting up centralized water purification stations is getting the water out to the people who need it.
Geezer- you have to centralize distribution anyway- tents, medicine, food, toilets... It's not generally a case of delivering water to the doorstep (except where you are literally dropping food and water on rooftops). Do you have any other criticisms of my observations?

BTW- I didn't want this to get lost in the other thread. It appears that FEMA was supposed to be in charge as of Sept 27th. But they didn't deliver to coordination, causing local agencies to delay their own efforts. Not only that, I've read several reports from various sources where FEMA shut down independent aide from the Red Cross, Walmart, the Coast Guard, Jefferson Parish police etc. And at least one of Blanco's requests for National Guard assistance from another state was held up in Washington from Aug 27th or 28th to Sept 3. Also, I was looking at who has authority to do what- clearly, the Federal government wins ahnds down because not only did it have authority (through FEMA) to coordinate aid, it also has authority to essentially commandeer civilian airplanes and trains, and to call on the military. Nagin had control of the city buses and bus drivers. I suppose he MIGHT have taken control of school buses, but wouldn't be able to compel school bus drivers because (if NO is like LA) the city does not control the school system. As far as doing house to house- that would be up to the city police, and I suppose the National Guard if there were enough to go around. Blanco did everything I thought she could and should do- re-route the roads, request Fedeal assistance, activate the LA National Guard and request assistance from other state Nationl Guards. It looks to me like Nagin and Blanco were kind of trapped by FEMA. People are still dying but ....

Please don't think they give a shit.

Whew! All in all, I have to say I am impressed with the level of intelligence on this site....not bad, folks....I enjoy witnessing vigorous discussion from folks that actually read and go beyond the media sound bites!!! You're my kind of people....

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Monday, September 5, 2005 10:07 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And that's why they used water-tankers in Iraq - because it was so inefficient and costly.

Nope. Because they were providing water for military units that were mobile and able to concentrate in locations where distribution was easy, and had the equipment on hand (canteens, camel packs, vehicles with water cans, etc.) to carry water with them.

In the Iraqi cities, the population had better mobility than in flooded conditions like the Gulf Coast, and also were more prepared to transport and store water, having had to do it before due to Iraq's less convenient infrastructure.

Plenty of bottled water was distributed in Iraq as well.

Providing water to a basically immobile population is a whole different story from Iraq. Bottled water is easy to make, easy to store, easy to ship, and easy to distribute. It can be transported and delivered right to the folks who need it.

Think about it. Would you rather have to find, in your flooded home, some container you were sure was sanitary, carry it possibly miles through flooded, debris filled streets, and then carry it back home (water weighs about 8 lb per gallon) through the flood? Or have a truck come by and give you a case of bottled water?

I realize you wouldn't agree with me if I said fire is hot, but come on...

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 11:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

My take on this is- For people who are stranded and can't be immediately rescued, clearly dropping bottled water and MREs make the most sense. For collection/ staging areas and temporary on-site housing, on-site purification along with porta-potties, generators, and rudimentary medical facilities make the most sense. It all depends on what you're trying to do. But the question of bottled or purified water is prolly a moot point anyway since the authorities look like they're bound and determined to get and keep EVERYONE out of the city. (Including the Red Cross. www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html)

To some extent I wonder how much this is driven by safety issues and how much by spin control. The picture is going to be ugly, and the hell of it is that I guess about 10-15% of the bodies they recover will have been found to have been dead for 0-3 days... people who missed being rescued by just a little bit. Will we see reporters "embedded" with National Guard and the military? Will we get official "happy news" briefings from Michael Brown and Chertoff? I expect a LOT of PR from the WH in the next few weeks.

It's all too much for me. I think I'm going to watch several hours of FF now...

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Whew! All in all, I have to say I am impressed with the level of intelligence on this site....not bad, folks....I enjoy witnessing vigorous discussion from folks that actually read and go beyond the media sound bites!!! You're my kind of people....

Umm... the less said about my temper, the better...

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 1:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Geezer,

Now you're just being absurd.

OF COURSE bottled water makes sense for stranded victims - roughly 50,000 out of a million (or 5% of the total). But for EVERYBODY ???? SHEESH !

So go ahead, now tell me why they had to deliver bottled water to centers.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 1:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SignyM

I hear 'ya. It really is about damage control - not letting in people who would dispute the administration's happy, happy, HAPPY ! reporting.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 1:12 PM

CHRISISALL

This thread got long. I started a continuation thread with a more relevant title, if anyone wants to move to it.

Trying to be constructive Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:33 PM

RUXTON

Gino,
You said,
Even in "safe areas" like Houston?

No, I meant in the original disaster areas. Apparently the HOuston and other outside areas are very well run.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:36 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

So go ahead, now tell me why they had to deliver bottled water to centers.

Because it's already on hand, it doesn't get interrupted if on-site manchinery or plumbing breaks down, and there are commercial facilities all over the country that are already set up to produce and distribute it. Besides, you can give people several bottles at a time and they can keep them for use as needed. Otherwise you have folk lining up with a plastic cup at a tap every time they need a drink. Rough to do for thousands of folks. Also consider that bottled water, which comes in it's own container, is more practical to use for hygiene, such as washing, rather than trying to round up buckets or pans for everyone.

Now off to Chris's new thread

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:39 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Gino,
You said,
Even in "safe areas" like Houston?

No, I meant in the original disaster areas. Apparently the HOuston and other outside areas are very well run.

I tossed in a BBC link, some tourists who spent some time in the astrodome, and since went back to Britain tell of racial tensions and fighting...

maybe it was isolated.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:17 PM

RUXTON

CITIZEN,

Thank you for your kind words.

In this situation, I can't understand why anyone can't see the obvious problems. Of course, the folks who are suffering in N.O. are "politically insignificant" to today's politicians.

I agree with others' observations that only a revolution will change things, but I would be surprised if that happens.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:27 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
CITIZEN,

Thank you for your kind words.

In this situation, I can't understand why anyone can't see the obvious problems. Of course, the folks who are suffering in N.O. are "politically insignificant" to today's politicians.

I agree with others' observations that only a revolution will change things, but I would be surprised if that happens.

Of course once you start objecting to way the US government treats Americans they have no use for...

start taking a long hard look at US foreign policy and all those other people they have no use for..........

If a revolution starts, you will definately have allies

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