US Double Standards by GinoBiffaroni

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Just thinking...

Why does the US pump Millions ( likely more ) into Opposition partys ( of any country who doesn't give in competely to them ) through this National Endowment for Democracy...

When their own election laws forbid any foreign campaign donations to anyone...

Does this seem right ?

Makes perfect sense to me.

We support liberty. Outsiders attempting to influence us would undermine that effort here and abroad. Thus we do not allow it (with the exception of China so long as the funds come from Buddist monks.

H

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:23 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Just thinking...

Why does the US pump Millions ( likely more ) into Opposition partys ( of any country who doesn't give in competely to them ) through this National Endowment for Democracy...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/999622DF-5E5B-4E47-857A-81E92E4
A1E60.htm

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1498

When their own election laws forbid any foreign campaign donations to anyone...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=/dorf/20
031224.html

Does this seem right ?

I would say either quit doing it yourself... or open things and and allow it.

Well, here's Sumate's response.

http://www.sumate.org/casolegalenglish.asp

and here's the guidelines for the NED grant.

http://www.sumate.org/documentos/NED%20Grant.pdf

and an interesting blog

http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2005/06/who-is-afraid-of-sumate.h
tml

BTW, the grant to Sumate, which got them in so much trouble, was $54,000.00.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"(the supposed hepititus-B vaccine tested in Africa the was the basis for the AIDS epidemic, anyone?)?"

Dude, you can't throw a detail like that out there, and leave it dangling, unsupported.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:59 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Just thinking...

Why does the US pump Millions ( likely more ) into Opposition partys ( of any country who doesn't give in competely to them ) through this National Endowment for Democracy...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/999622DF-5E5B-4E47-857A-81E92E4
A1E60.htm

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1498

When their own election laws forbid any foreign campaign donations to anyone...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=/dorf/20
031224.html

Does this seem right ?

I would say either quit doing it yourself... or open things and and allow it.

Well, here's Sumate's response.

http://www.sumate.org/casolegalenglish.asp

and here's the guidelines for the NED grant.

http://www.sumate.org/documentos/NED%20Grant.pdf

and an interesting blog

http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2005/06/who-is-afraid-of-sumate.h
tml

BTW, the grant to Sumate, which got them in so much trouble, was $54,000.00.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I would agree that going after sumate doesn't make sense... unless they change their laws to reflect yours...

The amount doesn't matter... by your laws I cannot donate $54,000.00 to influence your political process... but you deem it fair to throw your money into mine ?

Also the precident doing this also causes other problem, such as Haiti :

http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-026.html

You threw your money and backing against the ELECTED leader Aristide...

but allowed asylum for Jean-Claude [‘Baby Doc’] Duvalier.... a mass murderer... but a pro American one so thats okay... or is it ?

Haiti, the Chile of the 90's

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:19 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
... by your laws I cannot donate $54,000.00 to influence your political process... but you deem it fair to throw your money into mine ?

Not quite correct. You cannot contribute to a candidate or political party. I don't find anything that would prohibit you from contributing to a non-partisan voter registration or voter education organization. If you wanted to support the League of Women Voters, for example, there's no restriction on that.

Sumate claims to be a non-profit, non-partisan organization, similar to the LWV, "...a national association of citizens and professionals dedicated to promoting a peaceful democratic solution to the political crisis in Venezuela."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:14 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"(the supposed hepititus-B vaccine tested in Africa the was the basis for the AIDS epidemic, anyone?)?"

Dude, you can't throw a detail like that out there, and leave it dangling, unsupported.

Probably THE biggest cover-up in history due to the MASSIVE dollar value attached to the culpability. What I know comes from many radio and (admittedly) left wing magazines from the mid to late eighties. The absurd idea that green tree monkeys have had this virus for decades only to bite their FIRST human in the late seventies sounded like horse***t to me the first time I heard it. So I avidly wanted to learn as much as I could. The gist is that it was accidentally created by combining hepititus-B with a bovine-retrovirus (sp?), it was tested on a portion of an African village population, who started developing immune problems. The 'scientists' were evacuated, and all traces eradicated. Then a visitor from Hati (who happened to be gay) got it before going back to his country and infecting others including a gay visitor from America (our patient zero).
http://www.originofaids.com/
has some info, but for obvious legal reasons, won't go into the role the US government played in the mess.
http://www.garynull.com/Issues/Aids2ndOpinion.aspx
This book deals with it in much better detail.

Anyway, this is off topic, I only brought it up to highlight how we use the double standards everywhere, for everything.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
We support liberty. Outsiders attempting to influence us would undermine that effort here and abroad.

And we're supposed to believe blindly that's the whole agenda involved? I think not; maybe in 1950s-era comic books.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
We support liberty. Outsiders attempting to influence us would undermine that effort here and abroad.

And we're supposed to believe blindly that's the whole agenda involved?

Why not?

Seems you believe just as blindly that there's more to it then that.

Sometimes ya just gotta believe. God Bless America and all that.

H

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:44 PM

I believe what I see: a cadre of rich white men who arrogantly decide what "liberty" means, and who then take it upon themselves to force that vision on others and to hell with what others might think.

That's what I see, not what I blindly believe.

And there is no "god" to bless (or otherwise) anything.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:48 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Sometimes ya just gotta believe. God Bless America and all that.

Hero, quick! Take that tongue outta your cheek before ya bite it!!

Too late. Here, use the hydrogen-peroxide Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:20 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

In case you want to know more about ehe National Endowment for Democracy, here's their website.

http://www.ned.org/

Hardly looks like a right-wing organization to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:33 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
In case you want to know more about ehe National Endowment for Democracy, here's their website.

http://www.ned.org/

Hardly looks like a right-wing organization to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Right or Left win is not the issue...

I was as critical of Clinton as I am of Bush

Francis Fukuyama on "Do we really know how to promote democracy?" was interesting... but I am far from convienced...

Tell me why I should be allowed to directly support... say a Libertarian canidate for President if I so chose with a cash donation...

I would say the NEP is simply an extention of US foreign policy...

besides any organization that would have Henry Kissinger speak at their dinner....

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Friday, September 16, 2005 2:03 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Tell me why I should be allowed to directly support... say a Libertarian canidate for President if I so chose with a cash donation...

You're not.

However, if you want to contribute to an organization, other than a political party, that teaches the benefits of Libertarian theory, or Socialist theory, or Anarchist theory, that'd be fine. NED supports the theory of Democracy, not particular politicians or parties.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, September 16, 2005 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
I believe what I see: a cadre of rich white men who arrogantly decide what "liberty" means, and who then take it upon themselves to force that vision on others and to hell with what others might think.

You see what you want to see and to hell with what's really going on.

Nope, check that.

"A cadre of rich, white men arrogantly deciding what liberty means" then "forcing" it on others. Hey! A Tory, a bloody loyalist is our midst! Death to traitors and long live King George! Well we might be baseborn colonial commoners, but we'll give you Redcoats what for we will.

As for me, give me liberty or give me death, or at least give me a break.

Edit: I occurs to me that you might not be an American, in which case your distaste for our revolutionary ideas of liberty might be understandable. If so, I appologize for calling you a Tory and a bloody loyalist. However, 'Sic Semper Tyrannis' might be a more appropriate sentiment.

H

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Friday, September 16, 2005 5:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You see what you want to see and to hell with what's really going on.

And that's your opinion; mine is that statement applies to you rather than to me. Everyone's mileage is guaranteed to vary.

I am very much an American, thank you. You seem eager to take on the mantle of the Founding Fathers; how have you put your personal life on the line for the freedom you enjoy? Just curious about the 'or give (you) death' part.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:05 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Tell me why I should be allowed to directly support... say a Libertarian canidate for President if I so chose with a cash donation...

You're not.

However, if you want to contribute to an organization, other than a political party, that teaches the benefits of Libertarian theory, or Socialist theory, or Anarchist theory, that'd be fine. NED supports the theory of Democracy, not particular politicians or parties.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Much of that cash, frequently seems to wind up in the hands of people trying to subvert the system... or directly into the hands of people running against somebody your government seems to want out of power...

Haiti

TheNational Endowment for Democracy, in conjunction with the Agency for International Development, gave $189,000 to several civil groups including

the Haitian Center for the Defense of Rights and Freedom, headed by Jean-Jacques Honorat -- who became the prime minister in the coup government.

In the years prior to the coup, the NED also gave more than $500,000 to the Haitian Institute for Research and Development, allied with the U.S. favorite Marc GBazin, former World Bank executive.

Another recipient of NED largesse was Radio Soleil, run by the Catholic Church in a manner calculated not to displease the dictatorship of the day. "During the 1991 coup--according to the Rev. Hugo Triest, a former station director-- the station refused to air a message from Aristide....
Source: William Blum, Haiti 1986-1994: Who Will Rid Me of this Turbulent Priest?" excerpted from the book, Killing Hope: U. S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II.

http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/ned.htm

This link is interesting :

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2004/11/11_401.html

Is it an accident that NED and IRI seem to fund groups all over the world who do things like this... I don't think it is, I think that is their function.

If Cuba, or Russia... or today if Pakistan, or Iran tried to fund groups in this same manner to promote their views and objectives... I think the US government would go apeshit and put much effort into shutting it down.... Is it right that the US continues to do much the same.

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
how have you put your personal life on the line for the freedom you enjoy? Just curious about the 'or give (you) death' part.

Lets see. I was born in a small town, son of a local lawman. Working class. Worked my way from one dead end job to another getting what schooling I could while keeping my debts low. Finished college. First in family to get a college degree before the age of 30. Earned a full academic scholarship to lawschool. Worked and went to school for three more years. First in family to get an advanced degree. Passed the bar, first try. Turned down salary near six figures (low ninetees) at a law firm to work for much, much less serving my community as a Prosecutor. Kept my part-time job so spent my first two years working seven days a week and took no vaction till last July (Disney, took little sister and parants). Nowdays I've been able to quit my part-time job but I've replaced it with a crapload of volunteer work and pro bono cases.

So I work hard, have big dreams, and love my City, State, and country. That's my definition of liberty and good citizenship.

My personal life has always been about risking everything for my dream. I could have played it safe, I was a very good security guard, might be some kind of boss by now or maybe a policeman, like my father started out as. Now, when I say "Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury, my name is Hero and I represent the City of Such and Such", thats my moment.

I remind you that the Revolution was fought by soldiers, farmers, shopkeepers, servants, slaves, and yes, a few white lawyers with crazy notions of liberty they wanted to forcefully impose on others.

H

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:36 AM

Retired military officer, 23.5 years active duty, including 800+ combat flying hours. Enlisted at age 17, worked my way through the ranks, bypassed desk jobs and volunteered for where I was needed, and still managed to get my education in my off-duty time and earn a commission. Love Firefly.

That's just posturing, doesn't change anything about how the world is. The main thing I wanted to know was how you actually put yourself in threat of peril to life and limb in defense of the freedom to strut about your nationality which from your posts you appear to cherish. You spouted 'or give me death' like you had personal contact with the reality of that kind of risk.

I have my set of beliefs. They are rock-solid, founded in fact, and exist independantly of me or of how anyone else might believe. I'm sure you have the same, and would react strongly to someone trying to force you to behave against those beliefs. Ditto. The only time I'm going to give a rat's ass how you believe is if I catch you trying to force me to change my belief-based behavior to match yours. Then I will (and shall) use whatever means necessary to prevent you. That is what our Founding Fathers were all about, and that hasn't changed.

And that's pretty much all that needs be said about this or any related topic. I'm disengaging now, having said my piece. Enjoy your stay. I've got Firefly-related threads to go blabber in.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:50 AM