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Dear FRONTLINE,

This show, this despicable show, you treasonous cowards, I am appalled how you put our soldiers at risk and enlighten the enemy!

I am so sickened by watching this show, this disgrace, this true treasonous act! You should be ashamed for selectively picking cowards who would rather see this great country be degraded for the sake of ratings, liberal base, than the protectors of this great country, how dare you, you should be ashamed.

Thank god for tough action, strong will and a dogged determination to see through your devise, destructive, and dangerous airing of this terrible betrayal of the men and woman who are protecting everything you have and everything you ever will have, I'm sick!

Wayne Woran
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/talk/index7.html

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Originally posted by CantTakeSky:
What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret.

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Then there were all those people who say, "That's not torture!" I'm not sure if they just didn't watch the program or if they simply blocked out the part where "Detainee 07" was sodomized or where someone was kept in continuous hypothermia at the verge of death.

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This blind "patriotism" baffles, and scares, me. What have we become, and where are we headed, as a country?

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Bush may turn out to be a transition figure, our version of Otto von Bismarck. Bismarck used "values" to energize his base at the end of the 19th century and launched "Kulturkampt," the word from which we get "culture wars," against Catholics and Jews. Bismarck 's attacks split the country, made the discrediting of whole segments of the society an acceptable part of the civil discourse and paved the way for the more virulent racism of the Nazis. This, I suspect, will be George Bush's contribution to our democracy.
...
The Institutes of Biblical Law called for a Christian society that was harsh, unforgiving and violent. Offenses such as adultery, witchcraft, blasphemy and homosexuality, merited the death penalty. The world was to be subdued and ruled by a Christian United States. Rushdooney [Rousas Rushdooney, Founder, The Reconstructionist movement] dismissed the number of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust as an inflated figure and his theories on race echoed Nazi Eugenics.

"The white man has behind him centuries of Christian culture and the discipline and selective breeding this faith requires...," he wrote. "The Negro is a product of a radically different past, and his heredity has been governed by radically different considerations."

"The background of Negro culture is African and magic, and the purposes of the magic are control and power over God, man, nature, and society. Voodoo, or magic, was the religion and life of American Negroes. Voodoo songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive." (see The Religious Right , a publication of the ADL, pg. 124.)

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Originally posted by citizen:

Blind patriotism is always a problem

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
plausible deniability

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Originally posted by Chrisisall:
Heil Bush! Chrisisall

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Originally posted by citizen:
Afterall, there's no word in the English language for 'Dictator'...

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t consider defacing or destruction of religious items, to include the Koran, in front of prisoners, torture.

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We are fighting an enemy that is very fanatical and driven to fits of inhuman psychopathic and/or suicidal fanaticism that will be inflamed by even the notion that the US defaces a Koran.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
we'd have had better provision for coercive interrogation in place from the get-go. The slap-dash manner in which it developed, and the relatively low-grade techniques used really do seem like a scramble for some useful info, rather than a pre-orchestrated and systematic torture machine.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t consider sleep deprivation and aggressive, loud and/or threatening speech torture. I don’t consider defacing or destruction of religious items, to include the Koran, in front of prisoners, torture. Nor do I think that such things are newsworthy.

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However, the unnecessary discussion, even innocently, on the news can inflame threats against our people. We are fighting an enemy that is very fanatical and driven to fits of inhuman psychopathic and/or suicidal fanaticism that will be inflamed by even the notion that the US defaces a Koran. Innocent people, including Americans, may die as a result of simply discussing so called torture in the news.

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if inappropriate or unworthy news is used as propaganda to further or even escalate war against the US.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Most Muslim fanatics (as well as many non-fanatics) would rather be killed or beaten than be religiously or sexually humiliated. We of the western world would probably rather escape with our lives than worry about a book (I know I would) or being photographed naked. But is a definition of what constitutes torture only applicable to the people giving, or is it somewhat based on the people receiving it? I would propose that defacement of a Koran in front of a Moslem cleric is tantamount to torture on a level that we as westerners are unfamiliar with. If another culture considers an act to be torturous, shouldn't we as a civilized nation respect that? My personal position on torture is no way no how, because I see us as being better than that (as well as its actual effectiveness has always been in question). But people who actually debate things like, 'where is the line' always confuse me on points like this. Sure it isn't torture to you, but a maybe a better question to ask is, 'is it torture in regards to their culture.'

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Our news agencies covering these stories isn't inflaming anyone outside this country. Our news agencies covering these stories actually presents a level of sanity and accountability that the rest of the world finds hopeful. As Bush has so often pointed out, one of the things that makes the U.S. a much better place than Iraq under Saddam is the fact that when members of our military commit atrocious acts, there are consequences. Stories in our country's free press are part of those consequences. The commitment of Americans to take the inquiry to the highest level of government is another thing that makes this country great.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And Finn, you really oughta watch the program before you comment, unless you just want to muddy the waters with issues that may or may not be germane.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Multiculturalism in all its ridiculousness.

I seem to remember an “art” piece a few years ago that involved defacing the image of the Mother May with feces. Many Christians found this to be in rather poor taste. Was the artist “torturing” Christian clerics? Should that artist be arrested for practicing torture? Or does a reverence of ones religion only apply to fanatical Muslim clerics? If we are going to elevate the defacing of a religious book to the level of torture, then we have essentially eliminated the freedom of speech, if we are to apply this new found reverence for religious articles fairly.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Free speech isn't free. Maybe it would be better to take our people out of harm's way than hope human(ie fallable, weak and/or viciously opportunistic) media has a conscience, and the ability to follow it.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Did someone start a war with us?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Sorry, okay- the 'shouting fire in a crowded theatre' thing; I get it. But they're cuttin' off heads over there. We should not have gone there the way we did, we should not be there now, it should not matter what our media says about anything, true OR inflamatory.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And if the American people don't know the bad things that go on (as they obviously don't), it WILL continue full force. Change of some kind is necessary, and it's always painful.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
P.S. Finn, I don't see you on the General Discussion boards much, what did you think of the BDM? I loved it!

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I agree, but it doesn’t change the fact that there are those, even in this country, who wish to use the issue of torture as a political weapons against the president.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
As I made perfectly clear, we in the west don't take our iconography as seriously as the Islamic world does. Is that act torturous as we define it in America? No, nor would I equate it with a freedom of speech issue here in America.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
The point was, had someone in Iran made a Koran art piece like the Xtian one you point out, he wouldn't have lived to see it on display. That's a fact. So, since something like that would be illegal at best, murderous heresy requiring stoning more than likely in a Moslem country, it doesn't matter whether it's freedom of speech in ours. I'm asking if we should treat the issue in that respect. Just because we define torture one way doesn't mean someone else's definition is a perfect match.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
It says we're a nation of individuals with differing opinions. The folks who produced "the Torture Question" expressed their opinion and Mr. Moran expressed his. Or would you rather that only "acceptable" opinions be expressed?

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Illegally promoting sadism and torture in the ranks of the U.S. Army is something any President should get in trouble for. That a bunch of folk have been waiting for the opportunity is a political commonplace. At least Bush would be taken down for something a bit more substantive than a bj.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:

The point was, had someone in Iran made a Koran art piece like the Xtian one you point out, he wouldn't have lived to see it on display. That's a fact. So, since something like that would be illegal at best, murderous heresy requiring stoning more than likely in a Moslem country, it doesn't matter whether it's freedom of speech in ours. I'm asking if we should treat the issue in that respect. Just because we define torture one way doesn't mean someone else's definition is a perfect match.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Are you suggesting that it doesn’t matter whether our media puts forth rational and honest news? I would say that that kind of thinking with regard to the media is exactly what I was talking about.

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Originally posted by citizen:
This Mr. Moran strikes me as the kinda guy who would have been cheering at the front of Hitler's Nuremberg rallies, shortly before chucking a Molotov cocktail through some Jewish families window.
All the time saying it's for the good of the nation, that these weasels deserve to die because they're trying to hurt the country...
Strikes me as the same sort of personallity would do that if society made it acceptable.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Slippery slope alert. Next might be: "Just because we find slavery (or subjugation of women, or genital mutilation of teen girls, or religious intolerence) a socital evil doesn't mean someone else's definition is a prefect match.

There are some things about which reasonable people can agree to disagree. There's others that are just wrong.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm saying that our media should be able to report that there is no torture, Brad Pitt's leading the torture guard, or 100% of Americans use Korans as kitchen flooring; it should have no bearing on how safe our soldiers or citizens are, except, of course, we have them over there- our greatest mistake....

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Originally posted by citizen:
Geezer:
My original point was no one was suggesting that Mr Moran or his misguided, and yes he IS misguided, views should be 'gagged'.

They were suggesting that he was not all there, which is an opinion.

I'm saying it's alright to say someone how wants to stiffle freedom of speech to protect our (at least your) way of life is a crackpot.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As long as there are fanatical fruitcakes with aspirations of mass murder there will always be a need to report the news honestly and fairly to avoid unnecessarily providing a pretext to their fruitcakeyness.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Tarring the entire country with Mr. Moran's jingoistic brush is a bit simplistic.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Slippery slope alert. Next might be: "Just because we find slavery (or subjugation of women, or genital mutilation of teen girls, or religious intolerence) a socital evil doesn't mean someone else's definition is a prefect match.

There are some things about which reasonable people can agree to disagree. There's others that are just wrong.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Tarring the entire country with Mr. Moran's jingoistic brush is a bit simplistic.

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Who did that, and when. I see no statements, by anyone, who say such a thing.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Actually, the slippery slope started when you and Finn equated cultural sensitivity regarding religious artifacts with genital mutilation and rape rooms.

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Now answer, Finn, should the culture of the tortured be taken into account?

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1. the involvement of at least two people, the torturer and the victim;
2. the infliction of acute pain and suffering;
3. the intention to break the will of the victim;
4. systematic activity with a rational purpose.
(see link above)

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
...I can certainly understand and even agree with the necessity of keeping certain things secret. “Torture” is one of those things that should be dealt with very carefully, especially during wartime.

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...I do find it despicable that the issue of torture in the news seems to be more often a political tool... Since this is likely to inflame threats against our military men, citizens and US supporters abroad..., it is not only despicable but may be ethically tantamount to negligent homicide.

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Originally posted by Canttakesky:
"What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret."

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Actually, the slippery slope started when you and Finn equated cultural sensitivity regarding religious artifacts with genital mutilation and rape rooms.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
1. Would you support keeping what you know so far of Abu Ghraib/Gitmo interrogations secret until after the war is over?

2. What activities would you consider to be enough torture to warrant public exposure during wartime?

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I would like to know if you think this Frontline program is despicable or ethically tantamount to homicide after you've seen the program. Do you think programs like this should be suppressed until after the war so as not to inflame threats against our soldiers?

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Originally posted by Geezer:

I have just as much problem (or maybe not quite, since they aren't out to actually kill me) with the folk who propose "intelligent design" and are sure (their) god hates gays, contraception and abortion.

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I'm beginning to wonder if any evangelical religion hits a violently expansionist phase about 1200 years after its inception. Consider that the crusades, with their fanaticism and various abominations, started around 1200 A.D. (give or take a century). Islam started about 866 A.D. It's time for their "Crusades", eh?.

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Totally off topic, there's a wonderful statement in the November Smithsonian, from Edward O. Wilson, who proposed most of human behavior derives from biology and natural selection. He noted that "...the religious right's increasingly vocal opposition to Darwinian theory is rooted in a "dislike of human sociobiology", especally the idea that human values flow from biology rather than from a nonphysical soul." I couldn't have put it better myself.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
insist that torture is dependent on the religious fanaticism of the detainee, and that the US should be held responsible for the fanaticism of its enemies.

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I don’t know many Moslems outside this country, but I know many in the country, and they would likely be offended by the claim that they or their culture can’t tell the difference between defacing a Koran and torture.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
In a culture that finds sexual humiliation to be the lowest degredation of a person, some naked pictures are like hot pokers to them. Just not to us, so we don't see it.

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:
They are westernized.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I also don’t think that the Arab and Moslems cultures are necessarily so incapacitated with religious fanaticism that they are incapable of reason.

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I think the Moslems who find “porn” as “painful” as a hot poker are not representative of their culture. I think they are fanatics, even within their own culture. Delusional. Fruitcakes, to use a word I like.

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And even if fanatics are representative of the Moslem culture, they are still human beings capable of the same ability to reason as I am.

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and if Western people can tell the difference between defacing a Koran and torture, then so can Moslems. So strictly speaking I don’t think it has anything to do with culture. I think that is an oversimplification.

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I don’t think that it is fair to hold the US responsible for the delusion of fanatics, and I don’t think it is fair to use the Arab and Moslem culture as an excuse for fanaticism and terrorism. Clearly many do both, but I don’t have to agree with it.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
This Frontline program exposes the paper trail and systematic policy changes that fostered the abuses that began at Gitmo and were found later at Abu Ghraib. It details which kinds of tactics were authorized and just how far soldiers took liberties in a climate of dehumanization. It might just change your mind on whether the media lost perspective in their reporting, or whether indeed, torture is now authorized by the state. I would be curious to know if the interviews and documentation in this film was sufficient to change your mind.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
"What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret."

Duh.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Finn.
Let’s spin your argument around.
Let’s assume there’s a culture that sees nothing wrong in mutilating oneself, or others, cutting skin with a knife etc.
These people capture an American soldier and mutilate him/her.
This, of course, is not torture. Just because the soldier sees it as torture doesn't mean this other culture should bow to his or her delusion, does it?
These people can't hold themselves to account for other cultures delusions, now can they?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
don’t think it is fair to hold the US responsible for the delusions of fanatics.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
It would be like dumping a cupful of spiders on someone with a severe spider phobia. No, you're not responsible for the phobia, but you sure are responsible for dumping the spiders deliberately to be cruel. Maybe this person deserved it, and maybe you have a very noble reason to be cruel--but it is still cruel.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
For me, it is disingenuous to disown responsibility for intentionally inflicting pain on the prisoners, just because the same action would not cause *us* pain. We know it causes *them* pain--that's why we did it! It is better to accept responsibility for that difficult choice and defend why we believe limited amount of torture is necessary.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It directly influences the person through physical contact.

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