Bush Admistration hurts students with cuts to financial aid and other programs by piratejenny

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:

As an actual adult taxpayer all I can say is good. Get a job and pay your way through college the way millions of other kids (including myself) had to do. We have no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay for your education. Besides, from the tone of your posts you are waaaaay overdue for a dose of reality.

Fivver

Yah, screw the students that have the talent and skill to succeed at higher education but no the bank accounts. If they don't have the money to afford the $5-30k per year for tuition, how smart can they really be, right?

And all those people that get hurt in life and need medical care beyond what they could afford should just die. Because you and people like you have "no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay" for there medical bills, right?

So much for help thy neighbour.

Then again, the US could offer more money to student loan programs, scholarships, etc to be better prepared in the future. After all, we (the world this time) are headed into an era in which we are completely dependant on tech. but no-one has much of a clue of how it really works. Yah, this will go well.

Then again, the US could offer a medicare system in an effort to have there general population... gasp... healthy.

There is something about the future. You know, costs money now, but sees benefits later. But, if you don't spend the money now, you tank later.

So, how about it. Gonna give Johny (or Sally) down the street a little hand? Perhaps they're a genius and you just don't know it. A little access to education would find out you know.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Friday, February 3, 2006 6:26 PM

DC4BS

Um.. So the interest on student loans went up 2 percent. Don't take one in the first place and you don't have to worry about repaying it...

I busted my ass to get through college by taking a few years after highschool to work and save money for it.

I worked at Cablevision installing cable, did construction, worked as a chair lift guy at a ski resort in the winter when I couldn't get construction work. Whatever it took to put money in the bank.

I also worked 4 to 5 nights a week at burger king during college making burgers for minimum wage (was less then) and getting numerous burns on my hands and arms from scrubbing the conveyor belt grill each and every damn one of those nights. I was the lucky one too. A friend of mine had an accident and ended up putting his arm into a fry cooker to the elbow. He lost a semester from that. Has not got one hair on that arm below the elbow to this day. Other than some odd looking skin, he eventualy recoverd completely. Also worked some weekends selling marrionetes at craft shows (parents retirement buisness).

Worked summers back at construction and also worked over christmas breaks and easter, etc... doing whatever I could to earn money. I would have LOVED to go to spring break at least once, but I never quite was able to find a way to do it.

I had an unexpected shortfall one semester and a very good friends parents who I had known since grade school, shocked the hell out of me and gave me $1,000 to cover it. I paid em back the year after I graduated.

When I left school I had a B.S. and no debts at all (except that 1K). And I was 25 instead of 22 or so.

So any time I hear college kids whine about lack of funding for school, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, it tends to get me really annoyed.

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Friday, February 3, 2006 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dc4bs:

Um.. So the interest on student loans went up 2 percent. Don't take one in the first place and you don't have to worry about repaying it...

I busted my ass
< snip >

You survived a terrible situation having to go through that and I commend you for it.

But, let me clue you in on something. This is not about what you had to do to get your education.

This is about what people should not have to go through to get an education.

Please note: Paying for education should not be a hazing ritual to get an education. Higher education is hard enough without that.

It absolutely frighens me that people like you, people that had a hard time getting a higher education, would wish that hardship on others when it can be made easier allowing more time for study. Study is after all, what we are talking about. A better education, yes? Tell me, how can someone truly understand something if they are always worrying about finances?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Friday, February 3, 2006 6:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
As an actual adult taxpayer all I can say is good. Get a job and pay your way through college the way millions of other kids (including myself) had to do. We have no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay for your education. Besides, from the tone of your posts you are waaaaay overdue for a dose of reality.

Fivver

actually I already have a job a full time job, and I still cannot aford to go to college without the help of student loans that have to be paid back its not like the money is free.and just like me millions of hard working people who are just trying to better their lives through one of the only ways avaiable education, are going to be affected by this, nor did anyone ever say it was the governments sole obligation to pay for education. but as a tax payer I would much rather see my dollars go with services that actually help the country, by investing in citizens you invest in the future of your country, I'm not rich nor am I part of the elite so I don't feel intitled to anything but from the tone of your post someone might think you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and are intitled. if you weren't born as part of the elite and your just a regular working class Joe then you sound ignorant to say the leaste, that type of thinking is ignorant (IMO)

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Friday, February 3, 2006 7:04 PM

Fivver,

I don't know which side you're on, but that was a dumb comment. Obviously the price of education has become absurd, and no part time job will cover it. For my part, I worked two jobs while attending college and still had to take out some loans. And I had grants, scholarships, and tuition was lower. Now it's 15-25K a year, possibly plus r+b. That's absurd. This whole situation is absurd. On an indivudal level, if you really can do it, I say, f^&k it, skip college, there's little there that can't be learned from books. I also say F&*k Bush and Bliar. Investing in the education of the populous produces skilled labor which advances in earning power, which increase taxes, which increases revenue a great deal more than the cost of pell grants. These men are short sighted and fiscally irresponsible.

Plus, in today's news I see they plotted to create an incident to start the Iraq war. If I'm not mistaken, that's treason. It's not a partisan issue, since one's left and the other right, it's a moron issue.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 7:14 PM

Quote:
It absolutely frighens me that people like you, people that had a hard time getting a higher education, would wish that hardship on others when it can be made easier allowing more time for study. Study is after all, what we are talking about. A better education, yes? Tell me, how can someone truly understand something if they are always worrying about finances?

I think your on to something, its called bitterness, because he/she had it hard everyone else should too even if its already hard.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 7:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
As an actual adult taxpayer all I can say is good. Get a job and pay your way through college the way millions of other kids (including myself) had to do. We have no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay for your education. Besides, from the tone of your posts you are waaaaay overdue for a dose of reality.

Fivver

[post removed]

I'm sorry to anyone who read what I posted, while there was nothing that I consider profane it was in poor taste. I was simply pissed off.

Fivver I have a request for you, if you mean, "I don't want to pay a cent to those bastards," say it.

There are not many things that piss me off, but the use of ethos and faulty logic in order to put people down in any way is one of them.

No one who could come here, read this stuff, understand it, and compose a reply could actually believe the bullshit you spewed. You did all of those things so the only logical conclusion is that you don't believe it yourself. The fact that you graduated from college means you must be smart enough to know that that argument is logically invalid, and the fact that you used ethos in an economic debate is an insult to everyone who reads your post.

Saying that you don't want to pay to help others is fine. But don't lie to us, not even by implication (nice move by the way, saying something untrue without ever explicitly saying it), and don't treat us like idiots.

The first version of this post went a little too far, but this one goes just about the right amount.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 9:19 PM

Actually, I have something else to add here.

Conservatives often view universities as propoganda meccas where arch lefties provide courses purporting to be culture history but really are retrospectives focusing on the lives of prominent and even obscure lefties for the purpose of making lefties out of the populous. This is what the conservatives don't want to pay to support. To my fellow conservatives I say, rather than go for the ignorant intelligent design moron plan, we should get our act in gear, fill universities with professors who will create courses that focus on prominent and obscure conservatives so students can have another perspective, and more importantly, the rest of the facts. Then they can decide for themselves.

Our ass has been out of gear, and the left has run rampant over our education system, and we should respond with more information, not less.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Actually, I have something else to add here.

Conservatives often view universities as propoganda meccas where arch lefties provide courses purporting to be culture history but really are retrospectives focusing on the lives of prominent and even obscure lefties for the purpose of making lefties out of the populous. This is what the conservatives don't want to pay to support. To my fellow conservatives I say, rather than go for the ignorant intelligent design moron plan, we should get our act in gear, fill universities with professors who will create courses that focus on prominent and obscure conservatives so students can have another perspective, and more importantly, the rest of the facts. Then they can decide for themselves.

Our ass has been out of gear, and the left has run rampant over our education system, and we should respond with more information, not less.

who gives a crap about a skewed conservative view, the topic isn't even about that, its about cuts that are going to affect millions of people and it doesn't matter what you label yourself, because just like the rest of us, your still going to feel the affects of these cuts,( and when I say you're meaning you I'm generalising)Thats the reality of the situation, nobody gives a damn about what a neocon or a Lib thinks a college education should be, or what you would like it to be; or want it to be, We have to deal in the real world. and look at what it is and figure out how to get it best we can. Thats reality

and I disagree,I don't believe for a nano-second that this person gives 2 cents about supporting liberal ideas in college,( if he had I'm sure he would have said so!,and if he does that certainly wasn't his reason for posting in this thread. The hate some of you people have( for everything, be it life , liberty, happiness or whatever) and express is typical, the great thing about the internet is that your not afraid to speak up and let it all hang out.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
As an actual adult taxpayer all I can say is good. Get a job and pay your way through college the way millions of other kids (including myself) had to do. We have no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay for your education. Besides, from the tone of your posts you are waaaaay overdue for a dose of reality.

Fivver

[post removed]

I'm sorry to anyone who read what I posted, while there was nothing that I consider profane it was in poor taste. I was simply pissed off.

Fivver I have a request for you, if you mean, "I don't want to pay a cent to those bastards," say it.

There are not many things that piss me off, but the use of ethos and faulty logic in order to put people down in any way is one of them.

No one who could come here, read this stuff, understand it, and compose a reply could actually believe the bullshit you spewed. You did all of those things so the only logical conclusion is that you don't believe it yourself. The fact that you graduated from college means you must be smart enough to know that that argument is logically invalid, and the fact that you used ethos in an economic debate is an insult to everyone who reads your post.

Saying that you don't want to pay to help others is fine. But don't lie to us, not even by implication (nice move by the way, saying something untrue without ever explicitly saying it), and don't treat us like idiots.

The first version of this post went a little too far, but this one goes just about the right amount.

I actually liked your 1rst post and didn't see anything wrong with actually I cheered when I read it.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:51 AM

SIMONWHO

Can I just say on behalf of other countries around the world that we're very grateful to the current administration (and indeed many previous ones) giving the rest of us a chance to catch up and indeed overtake you because of your mix of short-sightedness and selfish philosophies.

We have had mass protests here over students being asked to pay £1000 a year (a sum I actually considered reasonable just to act as a disincentive for those who would go to university purely because it was a free way to spend three years of your life). I wonder about all the talents in America that never had a chance because their family was too poor to put them into college. Oh well.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I actually liked your 1rst post and didn't see anything wrong with actually I cheered when I read it.

Oh, well in that case ... if you'd like I'll repost it. Not going to change the post again though, I'd just make a new message with the old post in it, I think it's sitting on my computer right now.

So if you'd like it just say so.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
As an actual adult taxpayer all I can say is good. Get a job and pay your way through college the way millions of other kids (including myself) had to do. We have no moral, financial or constitutional obligation to pay for your education. Besides, from the tone of your posts you are waaaaay overdue for a dose of reality.

Fivver

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment and assume you're honest.

You claim that you paid your way though college the way people could do it now do it if they get a job.

As is well known one job isn't enough. In fact millions of kids, my sister for instance, have two full time jobs and are full time students. This isn't enough, and my sister goes to a state university that has a discount for residents and is probably the cheapest reputable university or college in the state.

None the less she goes to college full time and racks up more and more debt that will take her decades to pay off. (And prevent her from saving up to help her own children through college of course, assuming she has children some day.)

The obvious solution is for her to get a job, as you suggest. So, assuming that you took your own advice, please tell me how you managed to get such a job. I mean sure there are listings in the paper, but when you got your third job like kids today would need to in order to pay off college how did you fit it into your schedule?

I mean you claim you paid your way through college "the way" you suggest kids today should do it so that means after you got your second full time job you went out and got a job. But even if your third job was only part time how did you manage to fit that in with full time college, and your two other full time jobs.

I mean when they say, "Full time," it's not like it's a joke, doing three things full time and another job seems like a bit much to cram in.

-

If anyone is wondering this is not the first version of the other post. I really have trouble believing Fivver when he says that he is paid his way through college "the way" people today need to. I just don't think you can fit in three jobs, at least two of them full time, and be a full time student, and get enough sleep to correctly fill out a test.

However Fivver could have done it and I realized that I should give him the benefit of the doubt. There’s no point in assuming someone is dishonest when you have know way of knowing.

By the way, in the English language the one of the two equally important definitions of "he" is "A person whose gender is unspecified or unknown." I wanted to point that out because I do not know whether Fivver is male or female and a lot of people forget that by definition the word "he" applies to females.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 4:48 PM

Wow, Jenny, you're really an ass.

Simon,

I'm the first to admit we dropped the ball, but it's not fair to gloat. We've been hijacked by an evil govt. that cheats at elections and doesn't care dick about America. Our nation's own power structure is so overwhelming that it is almost impossible to legally oppose, we are really in a tough spot here, and trying all we can. And in case you missed this, I'm a conservative, and that's my take on Bush, I figure that the Democrats here have a thing or two to say.

Also, I agree, it's not just Bush, but also Clinton. But then Bush and Clinton are the same clown with different hats.

I think that there are a few places that have it as bad right now:

1. China. The govt. is powerhungry out of control. The Chinese are powerless to effect any change, and the wars of agression seem bent on conquering any territory with asians in it.
2. Europe. It's not a viscious rumor but an establish fact that the EU constitution is based not on anything of a western democracy but on teh constitution of the Soviet Union.
3. England, Blair is just as much of a neocon as Bush, but like Clinton, and unlike Bush, Blair is not a moron. I don't know who is better off.

That said, America is in very sorry shape at the moment. The Boehner victory over Blunt and the DeLay tactics is a small glimmer of hope though. Even if you don't believe in Boehner as an agent of reform, you have to appreciate this: Bush told people to vote for Blunt and then they didn't do it.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 8:26 PM

KHYRON

Dreamtrove:

lol, I'm not sure if I agree with what you said in your second example (about the EU constitution, although I guess I can see where you're coming from), but I totally agree with the other two.

SimonWho:

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Can I just say on behalf of other countries around the world that we're very grateful to the current administration (and indeed many previous ones) giving the rest of us a chance to catch up and indeed overtake you because of your mix of short-sightedness and selfish philosophies.

Doesn't matter, US companies buy the top talent from other countries to work for them. It's happened in the past, it's happening now and the way the US education system is going downhill under this and previous administrations, it'll happen even more in the future.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Conservatives often view universities as propoganda meccas where arch lefties provide courses purporting to be culture history but really are retrospectives focusing on the lives of prominent and even obscure lefties for the purpose of making lefties out of the populous.

Interesting. Tell me, how can a "liberal" mathematics instructor make math focus on the lives of prominent "lefties"? Similarly with physics or chemistry or...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

To my fellow conservatives I say, rather than go for the ignorant intelligent design moron plan, we should get our act in gear, fill universities with professors who will create courses that focus on prominent and obscure conservatives so students can have another perspective, and more importantly, the rest of the facts. Then they can decide for themselves.

It's nice to hear a conservative call ID moronic. Thank you

But, instead of trying to fill the U's with right wing propaganda to balance the left wing propanganda, why not first see if there actually is left wing propaganda. Then if there is, move to center it (and remove propaganda). Because no-one can make a supportable argument for something that would create an "educational" environment that is nothing but left/right wing propaganda witout any actual truth. Kinda defeats the purpose of an education.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Our ass has been out of gear, and the left has run rampant over our education system, and we should respond with more information, not less.

And do this, of course, without actually knowing what's going on.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

2. Europe. It's not a viscious rumor but an establish fact that the EU constitution is based not on anything of a western democracy but on teh constitution of the Soviet Union.

My wife is German. When I told her this her reaction was, "What planet are you on? What universe are you in?"

EDIT: She has asked for your source.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 11:37 AM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Doesn't matter, US companies buy the top talent from other countries to work for them. It's happened in the past, it's happening now and the way the US education system is going downhill under this and previous administrations, it'll happen even more in the future.

Heh. You won't have the money to do so, you're bankrupting yourself.

And ironically, our government has checks and balances that occur naturally whereas your system was always "honor based" but now that said word is out of favour with the Republicans, they're going to drive whatever agenda they want. Best of luck America. You're going to need it.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 11:49 AM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Heh. You won't have the money to do so, you're bankrupting yourself.

And ironically, our government has checks and balances that occur naturally whereas your system was always "honor based" but now that said word is out of favour with the Republicans, they're going to drive whatever agenda they want. Best of luck America. You're going to need it.

Just want to clarify that I'm not actually American and pretty glad about it too (no offence to all you Americans on here). Anyway, US debt is in the trillions already and the companies are mostly still doing fine financially, so being able to afford employees isn't really an issue (not like foreign workers get paid more). There'll always be foreign talent in US companies, because most people want to work in the US and US companies need their expertise, so it's a win-win relationship.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 12:21 PM

FLETCH2

Actually US companies won't "buy in talent" that's an inefficient and wasteful method of operating because you have to pay relocation for the worker, pay the worker close to US pay rates, deal with US government regulations and pay US taxes. What companies are increasingly doing is employing people in their own countries and taking advantage of costs and lower pay rates. The problem for the US is that very little of this shows up in taxes, US companies can keep profits overseas and foreign workers pay no US taxes.

It will also mean that less of that economic activity will take place in the US economy.

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 4:00 PM

Sure, absolutely. Why would they pay to move a guy from india to new york where he would have to pay for new york rent, pay new york and american tax, etc., not to mention his family, when chances are the guy would prefer to remain in india where his salary of $10,000 makes him a rich man?

With the internet, especially, a company can be anywhere. I've actually been working on a solution to this which is radical. I have no objection to the hiring of indians, it helps balance the world economy, and so yay to everyone involved. Yay the corporations that outsource, yay the outsourced employees who take the jobs and do the work, and yay yay yay to the tax evasion which takes hands out of the govt. discretionary taxbase, 95% of which goes to agressive military spending. And yay capitalism and the global free market for making it happen. And even yay communist China for letting down its walls to take part.

The only snag I have is that it leaves America unable to compete, because we are overregulated and overtaxed. I don't think that anyone is really interested in a solution to this, so I'll skip it because some sort of partisan argument would ensue, unless someone really in interested, in which case we can start a new thread to discuss solutions. For my part I'm interested in solutions which do not put an end to outsourcing, and not interested in anything which is going to put up trade barriers and take these jobs out of the hands of the indians and chinese who work so hard to make our global corporations run. (It's because of those folks in india that I actually *do* get someone on the phone. If that ended, American companies wouldn't hire Americans, I would just get endless computer menus.)

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Sunday, February 5, 2006 11:14 PM

Quote:
Also, I agree, it's not just Bush, but also Clinton. But then Bush and Clinton are the same clown with different hats.

HELLO!!!

This isn't the Clinton Administration..its the Bush Administration....

Clinton was far from perfect, but trying to bring him into the game at this late stage is ridiculous..you reps just don't want to take full responssiblity and acknowlege what a Colossal mistake you helped let cheat his way into office!!

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Monday, February 6, 2006 6:36 PM

Quote:
HELLO!!!

This isn't the Clinton Administration..its the Bush Administration....

Clinton was far from perfect, but trying to bring him into the game at this late stage is ridiculous..you reps just don't want to take full responssiblity and acknowlege what a Colossal mistake you helped let cheat his way into office!!

This was funny. Every once in a while a post is funny. This one made me smile. They're so cute when they're mindlessly partisan.

Anyway, I don't think I shirked blame for Bush, that wasn't my point with the whole "wolfowitz is a socialist mole" rant. It's that the point. The point is to understand what kind of monster he is.

Sure, it's our bad, I think I said that at least six times. But still, there is little that Bush has done that Clinton didn't also do. So, to enumerate, here they are:

1. Clinton did not run up an enormous deficit. For this, he should be praised. It's probably the only thing he should actually be praised for.

2. Clinton did actually authorize torture. He can't get praise for this, because this is what you expect from a human. Bush must be something else.

That's about it.

3. Clinton did invade countries and attack them, yet fail to do so when there was not enough oil:

3a. Bush invades Iraq, Afghanistan, but not Darfur where help is much needed.

3b. Clinton bombs Iraq, invades Somalia, Haiti, and Yugoslavia, but not Rwanda or Burundi where help was much needed.

4. Clinton got caught doing illegal wiretapping and was forced to invent a new FISA law. Bush has been caught doing illegal wiretapping and will soon invent his own new FISA law.

But, Bush in some ways is not as bad as Clinton:

5. Bush has yet to kill 100,000 people, let alone 1 million, the estimated total of Clinton's serial wars.

6. Bush has actually not destroyed as much of the earth's forests as Clinton did.

7. Bush has never attacked an American community on American soil and murdered the American citizenry within, and later made up justifications rather than apologize.

8. Bush has never blockaded food or medical supplies from a country to starve the people out, or to death.

On the global scale, it's like comparing Tojo to Mussolini, so it may seem pointless, but objectively, if there was an election between Bush and Clinton, Bush would still get my vote, and arguably, Gore was a continuation of Bush, so we are lucky to have Bush. Again I would argue that Kerry, who wanted to open new war fronts, increase the troop levels in Iraq to 500,000 and institute a draft, we are still better off with Bush.

This doesn't touch on:

A) We are still not WELL off with bush.
B) All of this is not the point, the point is, Bush is Clinton, not because they are alike, but because they are both Cheney.

Cheney ran the Clinton Admin to a large extent, and now he runs the Bush Admin. Cheney is a friend of Clinton's, and together they created our new military industrial complex and the NWO serial war plan. It's not a long string of conspiracy, it just a simple step.

Any democrat who right now thinks that they will be stopping the Cheney Reign of Terror by voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton, the wife of the man who handed control of the military to Halliburton, and Cheney, it's CEO, and who fought wars for Halliburton, the wife of a man who allowed the US forces in the UN to be the break in an arms embargo in order to funnel arms to muslim militant widely believed to be part of Al Qaeda, anyone who thinks this, is sadly mistaken, and is about to help re-elect Dick Cheney to the position of emperor of America.

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Monday, February 6, 2006 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
HELLO!!!

This isn't the Clinton Administration..its the Bush Administration....

Clinton was far from perfect, but trying to bring him into the game at this late stage is ridiculous..you reps just don't want to take full responssiblity and acknowlege what a Colossal mistake you helped let cheat his way into office!!

This was funny. Every once in a while a post is funny. This one made me smile. They're so cute when they're mindlessly partisan.

Anyway, I don't think I shirked blame for Bush, that wasn't my point with the whole "wolfowitz is a socialist mole" rant. It's that the point. The point is to understand what kind of monster he is.

Sure, it's our bad, I think I said that at least six times. But still, there is little that Bush has done that Clinton didn't also do. So, to enumerate, here they are:

1. Clinton did not run up an enormous deficit. For this, he should be praised. It's probably the only thing he should actually be praised for.

2. Clinton did actually authorize torture. He can't get praise for this, because this is what you expect from a human. Bush must be something else.

That's about it.

3. Clinton did invade countries and attack them, yet fail to do so when there was not enough oil:

3a. Bush invades Iraq, Afghanistan, but not Darfur where help is much needed.

3b. Clinton bombs Iraq, invades Somalia, Haiti, and Yugoslavia, but not Rwanda or Burundi where help was much needed.

4. Clinton got caught doing illegal wiretapping and was forced to invent a new FISA law. Bush has been caught doing illegal wiretapping and will soon invent his own new FISA law.

But, Bush in some ways is not as bad as Clinton:

5. Bush has yet to kill 100,000 people, let alone 1 million, the estimated total of Clinton's serial wars.

6. Bush has actually not destroyed as much of the earth's forests as Clinton did.

7. Bush has never attacked an American community on American soil and murdered the American citizenry within, and later made up justifications rather than apologize.

8. Bush has never blockaded food or medical supplies from a country to starve the people out, or to death.

On the global scale, it's like comparing Tojo to Mussolini, so it may seem pointless, but objectively, if there was an election between Bush and Clinton, Bush would still get my vote, and arguably, Gore was a continuation of Bush, so we are lucky to have Bush. Again I would argue that Kerry, who wanted to open new war fronts, increase the troop levels in Iraq to 500,000 and institute a draft, we are still better off with Bush.

This doesn't touch on:

A) We are still not WELL off with bush.
B) All of this is not the point, the point is, Bush is Clinton, not because they are alike, but because they are both Cheney.

Cheney ran the Clinton Admin to a large extent, and now he runs the Bush Admin. Cheney is a friend of Clinton's, and together they created our new military industrial complex and the NWO serial war plan. It's not a long string of conspiracy, it just a simple step.

Any democrat who right now thinks that they will be stopping the Cheney Reign of Terror by voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton, the wife of the man who handed control of the military to Halliburton, and Cheney, it's CEO, and who fought wars for Halliburton, the wife of a man who allowed the US forces in the UN to be the break in an arms embargo in order to funnel arms to muslim militant widely believed to be part of Al Qaeda, anyone who thinks this, is sadly mistaken, and is about to help re-elect Dick Cheney to the position of emperor of America.

as usual you just can't face up to responssiblity!!

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 4:14 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
3a. Bush invades Iraq, Afghanistan, but not Darfur where help is much needed.

Actually there is oil in Darfur, but I won't labour the point because the British and American Govs are trying to get UN troops in there

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 5:43 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Maybe you were a genius at college, but most students who take their studies seriously struggle to cope with the workload they already have.

Well, there's your problem. Most students don't take their studies seriously. I didn't...till I got in lawschool and learned that if you don't study your totally screwed.

I graduated with a degree in Political Science and got into lawschool while rarely reading anything and missing half my classes.

In lawschool if you miss three classes, you fail. If you don't read, even for one class, you fail. I figured it out quick enough to keep that from happening, but a third of my fellow classmates left school by the end of the first year (a few more lingered till middle of the 2nd).

Shortly after I started lawschool I started a part-time job. I worked 16 hours/week as a weekend security guard on a loading dock. I also worked 10-15 hours/week as a volunteer intern for the local prosecutor (which led to a paid position after graduation). I took my lawbooks and read my assignments and briefed cases during those hours at the security job. I also used my laptop to compose my stirling examples of legal literary prowess in the form of papers, briefs, and law review articles. Without that job I don't think I'd have done nearly as well. After graduation I kept my part-time gig along with my new prosecutor job and worked 7 days/week for the first year to give myself a little boost.

So now I have my own condo, a new mustang, and have student loans half the size of my classmates. So while I sympathize with all the poor students out there who are watching their beer money disappear, as a taxpayer (one in favor of the war) I say, with all due respect, get off yer lazy asses and work for your education! I aint yer daddy, so I quit asking me to pay!

H

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 5:59 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Conservatives often view universities as propoganda meccas where arch lefties provide courses purporting to be culture history but really are retrospectives focusing on the lives of prominent and even obscure lefties for the purpose of making lefties out of the populous.

HEY! I had that class too!

The professor was a sixties thowback. Sandles with socks, peace symbol, socialism, drug abuse. I loved him. Percy was the most fair professor I ever had, he loved honost debate and was advisor for our College Republicans. Knew a hell of a lot about the law and every story started with "I knew so and so, he's (in jail, dead, in Canada)". Hmm...also had a prof who deducted points for sexist language (mankind and such). Only had one who could say "Ronald Reagan" without scowling. Had a buddist, jew, and a crapload of athiests...but not a Christian professor among them (although I've since heard that there was one in the Business College, but that was several years ago). Every freakin professor's office was a "pink zone", a safe area for the gays and lesbians to cry and complain and get it on (hey, who knows what went on when the doors were closed). Vegetarians...safest place for a cow these days in in a college classroom. Take back the night...from what I don't know (good place to meet chicks though). Four years and not a single conservative guest speaker or lecturer in class or through the campus lecture series. I was taken into custody once and "leaned on" by the administration because I announced my intention to attend a lecture by the lawyer who argued Roe v. Wade and my liberal professor overheard and assumed I'd cause a ruckus. One time my friends from the College Republcians and I joined the University Democrats. We flooded their organizational meeting at the begining of the year, paid our dues and promptly elected me President. I then refunded everone's dues and formally disbanded the club (forcing them to go through the reapplication process and lose all their school funding).

Good times, those undergrad days. Now I have money and send the University a note telling them how much I would like to donate but can't because I can't support institutions that are so intolerant of alternative ideas and free expression (ie conservatives). Instead I give that money to the RNC.

H

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 6:52 AM

FLETCH2

Hero, I'm massively impressed, nicely thought out solution to the needs of your course. I have known people that worked security or night desk at small hotels because it gave them time to study at night. My night times were spent hiding in the university buildings until the doors were locked so I could spend the whole night programming on the college multiuser system. Life would have been so much easier had laptops been available back then.

The joining the Dems idea is truely inspired, damn, wish I'd thought of that one.

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Tuesday, February 7, 2006 2:32 PM

Citizen, yeah, I knew that, which is why I said 'not enough oil' because if there was enough oil, we'd be there. But also, the part about forming a mid east union as a power block has to be noted.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:10 AM

I only have one word: Fantastic! I hope there is more to come. It's about time the Bush administration started curbing the entitlement spending.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:14 PM

Quote:
I only have one word: Fantastic! I hope there is more to come. It's about time the Bush administration started curbing the entitlement spending.

Finn, I thought this was a dumb comment, a clay pigeon that needed shooting down. Bush is not curbing spending in any way shape or form here, and it does cut future revenue, as I showed pretty clearly. Bush's agenda on the student aid thing is simple and one-fold: To increase student loan debt.

Student loan debt is a high-interest, rapidly growing field of lowlife loansharking, and Bush's Saudi friends are knee-deep, no make that neck-deep, in it. He wants to help his friends earn money to make Saudi Arabia rich and powerful while making America poor and stupid.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:28 PM

Yeah, this is just a moronic think to say. Anyone who thinks this loansharking bullshit is in any way intelligent is not in any position to judge the dumbness of my comment, so I’m not the least bit concerned.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I say, with all due respect, get off yer lazy asses and work for your education! I aint yer daddy, so I quit asking me to pay!

Ok, since the other one ran away I'll ask you: how are students meant to fit in a third job?

I mean we know that they are out their on their lazy asses working only two full time jobs on top of being full time students, and I agree they should get off their lazy fucking asses and not ask for a damn bit of help. I mean every one else had to work their way through school why shouldn't they?

So enlightened one with half the student loans, tell me how you fit in your third job and I'll pass the message along to the people who are so lazy they only have two full time jobs.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:19 PM

Whatever,

It was a dumb comment, as was that. Bush, fiscally responsible? Please, give me a break. If you're bugged by the partisan bias of universities, say so, I did, but don't go knocking the idea of investing in education because it just looks moronic. I didn't mean to be hostile, but you did, so here it comes back again.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:39 PM

I’m a proponent of investing in education; I always have been. That doesn’t change the fact that the government needs to cut back on spending. They’ve been slicing my funding left and right, and I’m also a proponent of my funding. I’m thrilled that they are cutting into the entitlement spending as well. Of course, you won’t give Bush credit for anything. (I think you actually expected me to buy that little Saudi Arabia crap.

) We can debate all day on whether Bush is fiscally responsibly, (we won’t, but we could), but in the end, that wasn’t my point.

The bias on universities is a separate issue, and in my mind has nothing to do with the issue of government education loans and grants.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:44 PM

Finn,

1. No we couldn't debate all day whether Bush is fiscally responsible. It's an absurd position. That's like when my local democrats try to argue that Bin Laden is a good person, which they do.

2. I don't get funding.

3. Bush needs to cut way way way back on spending, but education should be the last place to cut, not because it's most important, but because it generates revenue. Cut your drains first, don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

4. I'm not going all Michael Moore here on the Saudis, but here's a country that actually does support Al Qaeda and they are making much more off of this US corruption than any Americans. If that means that I'm saying Mr. Moore has a point, well, then, Mr. Moore has a point. Doesn't mean I support his other positions.

5. Pell grants aren't entitlement spending. Entitlements are really things that people are entitled to. This means the govt. owes them this money, regardless. Lke Soc. Sec., medicare, SSI, SSD, etc. Pell grants are NOT entitlement spending, as they are only given towards tuiting if you are enrolled in class, if you drop out of school you don't get pell grants sent to your home. This by definition makes it's not an entitlement. It's not even a subsidy, since it is given to the college only if the college takes on this extra student, so it's not free cash to stay in business. What it really is, is a voucher, much like the vouchers we have been trying to push through for the last 15 years. Pell grant is a good program, it sends money to capitalist enterprise for performing services, thus bolstering the economy and raising the earning power of the workforce. It's about as conservative spending program as the fed. govt. has.

6. If you want to talk entitlement spending, check out Bush's new monster healthcare spending. This dwarfs anything he's saving by not funding education. Sure, I'd like to see entitlement spending hacked and slashed. This is not what this is about. If entitlement spending actually up and disappeared I wouldn't take it amiss.

Quote:
Of course, you won’t give Bush credit for anything.

Bush earns my contempt daily. Every time I think I'm going to give him a break, he f^&ks up again.

But you're right, I will never give Bush credit for anything because Bush will never earn credit for everything. I look at everyone's actions anew each day, and always give them the benefit of the doubt, and the Bush Admin has always been consistantly bad. But Bush himself will never get credit. He's less than a man. He can't talk, he can't read or write, he can't add numbers. The man is an actor playing president. Even if his policies were aces, he would deserve no credit. He's less there than Reagan. But when Reagan had good policy, Bush Sr. was probably due most of the credit. When G.W. Bush sucks, Cheney should be getting all of the blame, so my apologies. I think Bush is a deranged individual, as a person, but absolutely nothing as a leader. He's the friendly face of Dick Cheney.

But occassionally I have given the admin. credit for things, probably half a dozen times on this forum. But there's no escaping that the bad seriously outweighs the good here. I'm not saying we should bring Clinton back, in fact I think he never left.

What really surprises me no end is that people can love Clinton and hate Bush, or vice versa. For the most part, I can't tell one from the other. Economically, Clinton was more stable because Perot made his budget policy for him. Negatively, the Clinton govt. interfered more in the regular business of America. But the overall administration, I think it's one and the same. It's had the same policy on international affairs, the environment, the EU, Israel/Paletine, Iraq, Al Qaeda, Education, Healthcare, and for the most part Civil Liberties. I really this it was the Cheney/Clinton admin because Cheney had more pull than Gore ever did, and now it's the Cheney/Bush admin. It's really same 'ol same 'ol. I don't know what the rest of you are on about.

Finally, anyone who actually gave a damn about any of those issues like federal spending, or hell, pick any item off the republican party platform. Anyone who gave a damn about anything the GOP stood for would be pushing to impeach Bush right now and get an actual republican in there, instead of whatever it is that he or his administration is.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:51 PM