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Originally posted by piratejenny:

LOL!! Cheney and the victum were probably fighting over who was going to hunt down their prey in the most dangerous game the victum won, so Cheney shot him!!( I couldn't resist)

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

I heard that the guy Cheney accidently shot just had a heart attack, but he's still alive. Talk about having a bad day! Hope he gets well.

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
the way I see it there are two possible scenarios Cheney was drunk and shot the man in the face, or Cheney was pissed and shot the man in the face, either way I don't categorize this as an accident,

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Originally posted by Hero:
The victim says no harm, no foul...then I'd never in the absense of other compelling evidence or testimony, charge Cheney with a serious crime (there may be minor charges here, the game stamp for one, but that was resolved).

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I humbly suggest the possibility that Cheney was tracking a bird (meaning he was looking skyward (not straigt up, just not looking at the ground...probably the quail was flying fairly low). It tracked into the sun glare. Meanwhile the other person was approaching, unannounced from lower ground with the sun in the sky behind him.

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Buckshot spreads out so the man was hit with several pellets rather then taking a full on blast. Thats why he was relatively uninjured, scratches and a couple little holes (until his heart attack, but thats a bit of bad luck).

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There are a thousand possible ways this went down.

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We must rely on the testimony of the witnesses to say what happened. In this case, as a Prosecutor, I can say that the most compelling testimony comes from the victim, who says it was an accident and takes partial responsibility on himself for not announcing his approach.

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The victim says no harm, no foul.

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In this case, as a Prosecutor

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Originally posted by cartoon:
You don't want to be the only reasonable, sane-thinking person around, do you?

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Originally posted by Hero:
Oh, and we get to laugh at the really wacky folk that chime in from time to time.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The victim does not decide whether a law was broken or not.
But only in civil cases in which money is to be awarded.
Are you sure you're a Prosecutor?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But I noticed that Hero and his doppleganger Cartoon ignore my common-sense posts. Must be because they can't think of anything to say. I suppose in a way I should be flattered, so "thank you" for that indirect compliment.

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ewww you people are not only sick but gross, sitting up defending Cheney's actions. but I know this is the type of thing you Reps support, you say it was an accident but how do you figure you wasn't there and even by some slim, slim, chance that it was, Cheney didn't report it, Why? because he was drunk, that doesn't seem like an accident.
grow a pair of balls and stop supporting and defending these crimnals, because ignorance is no longer acceptable and you can't aford to be innocent. The very fact that you make excuses is a reflection on you, I can understand Cheney trying to cover his arse, but whats in it for you!!

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As far as I've heard, the gun in question was a 20-gauge (or possibly 12-gauge) shotgun. Since they were hunting quail, it's most likely that they were using BIRDSHOT, not buckshot. Birdshot pellets are SMALL - not much larger than a grain of salt.

According to reports, Wittington was about 30 yards away when he was shot (or "peppered", as the White House referred to it. Odd choice of words; implies you're seasoning the guy...). Shotgun rounds *spread* as they cover distance, so I see no ballistics or logical problems with the idea that a man shot at 30 yards with birdshot would be hit in the face, head, neck, and chest with "the same bullet".

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Originally posted by piratenews:
TeeVee said that 70 hunters shoot and kill each other every year in Texas, usually when drunk.

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Originally posted by Hero:

I would also note that my conservative values serve me well in this job. I'd think that you'd want someone like me as a Prosecutor. Tough on crime,strict application of the law, honost, forthright, mean, etc. You want hard chargers in my job and liberal pansies...er...sympathetic defenders on the other side. Makes for a good balance and all. Put a liberal in my office and folk can get away with murder (not to mention speeding).
H

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"The primary reason for Texas hunting accidents remains swinging on game outside a safe zone of fire. This happens when a person points a firearm at another hunter while following a moving target, such as a flying game bird."

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by piratenews:
TeeVee said that 70 hunters shoot and kill each other every year in Texas, usually when drunk.

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Funny, Texas says 29 accidents with 4 fatalities in 2004 and 30 and 2 in 2005.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20050314c
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20060213c

the 2004 release states:"The primary reason for Texas hunting accidents remains swinging on game outside a safe zone of fire. This happens when a person points a firearm at another hunter while following a moving target, such as a flying game bird."


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Help me out with the ballistics here. How much spread and penetration do you get at 30 yards with birdshot? Enough that potentially a full load hits a person-sized target? Enough to penetrate a vest, shirt, and about 3" of flesh to near the heart? That's the one thing I can't quite seem to get a bead on (so to speak)- the actual distance.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Help me out with the ballistics here. How much spread and penetration do you get at 30 yards with birdshot? Enough that potentially a full load hits a person-sized target? Enough to penetrate a vest, shirt, and about 3" of flesh to near the heart? That's the one thing I can't quite seem to get a bead on (so to speak)- the actual distance.

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HOW DO YOU SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE AND ITS AND ACCIDENT

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Everybody here is missing the point.
Hunting is SUPPOSED to be dangerious. That's what gives it it's edge. Adreneline doesn't come from a shoot-the-target video game. Shooting a living being with a weapon IS THE POINT.
Cheney just got a target a little higher up the food chain than he expected.
And if he were not the VP, it would have made for one Helluva cool hunting story 'round the campfire, with or without the beer.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Help me out with the ballistics here. How much spread and penetration do you get at 30 yards with birdshot? Enough that potentially a full load hits a person-sized target? Enough to penetrate a vest, shirt, and about 3" of flesh to near the heart? That's the one thing I can't quite seem to get a bead on (so to speak)- the actual distance.

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Cheney was shooting a 28 gauge shotgun using #7 1/2 shot (per the accident report). This shot is .10" in diameter and there are about 350 in an ounce. Most 28 gauge loads are .75 oz, or about 275 pellets. Normal pattern for a quail gun would put 57 to 67% of the shot inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Muzzle velocity of this type load is around 1,200 to 1,300 feet per second, and slows to probably 900 to 1,000fps at 30 yds. 30-35 yds is about max range to reliably penetrate a quail's feathers and skin a couple of inches with enough pellets to kill it.

So, even if the Veep were aiming directly at Mr. Whittington at around 30 yds he'd have probably hit him with 100-150 pellets at most, less if he was on the edge of the pattern. They'd have been going fast enough to penetrate clothes and skin, but not bones such as ribs or skull. A pellet hitting below the sternum might be a pretty good candidate for the one that caused later heart trouble (Just speculation on my part. I'm not sure how everyone was positioned.)

Looks like a hunting accident to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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I'm no fan of Cheney, but let's not paint him as a gun-wielding, war-mongering, drunken-pedophile-murderous-psycho just yet. After all, I haven't seen any real evidence that he's a pedophile.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, apparently there was some alcohol there. Armstrong herself said "There may be a beer or two in there, but remember not everyone in the party was shooting." Since she wasn't shooting (she was in ther car and didn't see what happened, AND she wasn't drinking, the logical conclusion is that other members of the pary were both shooting AND drinking.

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Now I know that it is only "right-winged wackjobs" that go hunting so I'll explain this to your undeveloped minds. When you go hunting for birds you use a shot gun unless you are an extremely good shot which is highly unlikely that you are shooting birds with a rifle anyway.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

I also race cars (Hey, Kwicko! NASA Honda Challenge in a CRX Si ITA clone), and often have beer in my cooler at the track. It comes out at the end of the last session when the track is closed and everyone is talking about the events of the day. On my couple of forays in the hunting field, this is also when the beer came out...after the stuff requiring sobriety was over.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Now, the liver is primarily located under the ribs. It's really hard to get at. Unless your liver is swollen and expanded downwards

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Originally posted by SignyM:

I don't believe the "shot migrated" story. It leaves the reader with the impression that the shot somehow migrated from Whittington's face to his heart. The only way it could "migrate" that far would be through a large blood vein, which means the shot would have penetrated a deep blood vessel in his neck and likely would have bled to death.

SO, you shoot someone in the face at close range who is wearing an orange vest. Either you're a flippin' idiot, drunk, high, having a seizure, sneezing, or some combination of the above.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

I don't believe the "shot migrated" story. It leaves the reader with the impression that the shot somehow migrated from Whittington's face to his heart. The only way it could "migrate" that far would be through a large blood vein, which means the shot would have penetrated a deep blood vessel in his neck and likely would have bled to death.

SO, you shoot someone in the face at close range who is wearing an orange vest. Either you're a flippin' idiot, drunk, high, having a seizure, sneezing, or some combination of the above.

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Originally posted by Hero:

We must rely on the testimony of the witnesses to say what happened. In this case, as a Prosecutor, I can say that the most compelling testimony comes from the victim, who says it was an accident and takes partial responsibility on himself for not announcing his approach. The victim says no harm, no foul...then I'd never in the absense of other compelling evidence or testimony, charge Cheney with a serious crime (there may be minor charges here, the game stamp for one, but that was resolved).

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Originally posted by Hero:

Am I a Prosecutor? (Looks at little gold badge..) I hope so, otherwise I'm going to be in real trouble for sending that guy to jail yesterday for his OMVI (in Ohio we simplified DUI by changing it to OMVI which is Operating a Motor Vehicle Under the Influence).

You say the victim does not decide whether or not a law was broken. Neither do I. The truth of whether or not a law was broken is not relevant to the issue. Thats for the Jury (or the Judge for a bench trial) to decide.

My consideration is my good faith belief that I can prove a violation of the law beyond reasonable doubt. For that I need witnesses and/or evidence. In this case we have witnesses all agreeing its an accident and experts (including myself as a hunter and a person whose been near missed by buckshot while sitting on my own back porch near a state game lands, back when I lived in PA as a kid that is) who agree it was an accident. No evidence or witnesses as yet to the contrary. The victim even agrees it was an accident and takes some small measure of responsibility. There is no grounds for a criminal case, not because a law may or may not have been brokem, but because if one might have been broken, there is simply no way to prove it.

I also note for the record the police report posted on Smoking Gun indicates that the victim was interviewed and his story is the same as the Vice Presidents. So while he may not have rushed to a microphone to give a press conferance, both parties did give statements to the only people who really deserve one, the police.

I also note for the record that while there is no viable criminal case at this time, the victim has a hell of a civil case against Cheney and the property owner...civil standards of proof are much lower.

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"My client was running nekked in the woods, and another hiker got mad and started a fight, resulting in arrest of my client. It turned out the hiker who started the fight was prosecuting attorney. My naked client kicked his ass. Ha! After I kicked the prosecutor's ass in court, we ran up a $10,000 bar tab in celebration, billed to the client!"
-My brother, the trial lawyer, licensed pilot and new aircraft salesman, current candidate for judge

"Government control of Communications and Transportation."
-Communist Manifesto, 6th Plank, written by Jew Karl Marx in London, England

"You will be happy to learn that the former head of the KGB (the secret police of the former Soviet Union), General Yevgeni Primakov, has been hired as a consultant by the US Department of Homeland Security."
—Al Martin, AlMartinRaw.com, Behind the Scenes in the Beltway, "Get Ready for the USSA (The United Soviet States of America)," March 17, 2003

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"Strictly speaking, a driver can register a BAC of 0.00% and still be convicted of a DUI. The level of BAC does NOT clear a driver when it is below the 'presumed level of intoxication.'"
—verbatum quote from Tennessee Driver Handbook and Driver License Study Guide (1999 - 2006 - available in SPANISH)
www.state.tn.us/safety/publications.htm

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"One of the major defects in many methods of blood-alcohol analysis is the failure to identify ethanol (also referred to as ethyl alcohol) to the exclusion of all other chemical compounds. To use the terminology of scientists, such methods are not specific for ethanol: They will detect other compounds as well, identifying any of them as 'ethanol.' Thus a client with other compounds in his blood or breath may have a high 'blood-alcohol' reading with little or no ethanol in his body. If you look at the warranties---it is sort of interesting---none of the breath machine manufacturers warrant these things to actually test blood alcohol."
—Lawrence Taylor, attorney at law, WWW.DUICENTER.COM, Drunk Driving Defense, 5th Edition (2000)

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"A prosecutor won't drop false charges against an innocent person, since that would risk the police and government being sued successfully for false arrest."
—Judge Wayne Henry, attorney-at-law and racing driver, president Sports Car Club of America's Loudon Region, Loudon, Tennessee, right before he ate lunch with the governor

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"You are the exclusive judges of the facts in this case. Also, you are the exclusive judges of the law under the direction of the court. You should apply the law to the facts in deciding this case. You should consider all of the evidence in the light of your own observations and experience in life. COMMENTS 1. This instruction must be given in each case."
—Tennessee Pattern Jury Instructions (T.P.I.) - CRIM 1.08, JURY: JUDGES OF FACTS AND LAW (2003)

"'A criminal defendant has a right that the court instruct the jury of its inherent right to disregard the law and the facts in controversy and to nullify.' The NH House has passed an act (HB 122) insuring the right of juries to judge the law, as well as the facts in the case, ensuring the power of jury nullification. The bill is sponsored almost totally by Republicans, so that means the Senate should pass it as well, and Governor Benson will likely sign it. One of the cornerstone issues of Libertarianism is about to become the law of the land in New Hampshire. Although mention of Jury Nullification has always been allowed in New Hampshire courts during closing arguments, this bill will enumerate that power into law."
—FreedomRadio.us, "NH House passes Jury Nullification Act," May 23 2003

"It is not only (the juror's) right, but his duty, to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."
—President John Adams

"The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy."
—John Jay, 1st Chief Justice, United States supreme Court, 1789

"The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts."
—Samuel Chase, U.S. supreme Court Justice, 1796, Signer of the The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

"The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact."
—Oliver Wendell Holmes, U.S. supreme Court Justice, 1902

"The pages of history shine on instance of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge. The jury has an unreviewable and unreversible power... to aquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge."
—U.S.vs Dougherty, 473 F 2nd 113, 1139, (1972)

"I used to make a motion to the judge for a jury charge under Article VI of the Tennessee Constitution. But the judge always denied the motion, saying, 'The law is what the judge says it is!' Actually, the jury can ALWAYS nullify a law, but the defense lawyer just can't tell them they can do it. I also liked to request a jury charge under Article I, Section I of the Tennessee Constitution: 'All power inherent in the people - Government under their control. That all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; for the advancement of those ends they have at all times, an unalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.'"
—John Herbison, attorney-at-law, www.WLAC.com 1510AM, "Legally Speaking", January 17, 2004

selective enforcement. The practice of law enforcement officers who use wide or even unfettered discretion about when or where to carry out certain laws; esp., the practice of singling a person out for prosecution or punishment under a statute or regulation because the person is a member of a protected group or is planning to exercise a constitutionally protected right.
—Black's Law Dictionary, 7th Edition

ABUSE OF DISCRETION.
1. An adjudicator's failure to exercise sound, reasonable, and legal decision-making. 2. An appellate court's standard for reviewing a decision that is asserted to to be grossly unsound, unreasonable, or illegal. See DISCRETION.
—Blacks Law Dictionary. 7th Edition

"When a judge acts where he or she does not have jurisdiction to act, the judge is engaged in an act or acts of treason."
—US Supreme Court, U.S. V. Will, 449 Us 200,216, 101 S Ct, 471, 66 LEd2nd 392, 406 (1980) Cohens v. Virginia, 19 Us (6 Wheat) 264, 404, SLEd 257 (1821)

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"Most studies of nerve conduction and transmission, EEG records, and behavioral performance indicate stimulant actions of low doses and depressant actions at high doses."
—H. Wallgren and H. Barry, "Actions of Alcohol"

"Neuronal activity is stimulated by low concentrations and depressed by high concentrations of alcohol."
—B. Kissin and H. Beglleiter, R.G. Grenell, Journal on Biology of Alcoholism, "Effects of Alcohol on the Neuron"

"Once in the bloodstream, the alcohol is distributed to all parts of the body, including the brain and liver. Upon reaching the liver, the alcohol immediately begins to be oxidized. The
liver can only oxidize about one drink per hour. Drinking three drinks in one hour will affect you more than drinking three drinks in three hours. Spacing your drinks over a longer period of time will slow the rate at which you become intoxicated and indicates responsible drinking habits."
-Tennessee Driver License Handbook

DARE cop to 8th grade class, Creal Springs, IL, 1994:
"Kids, this is what happens to you after one beer, blah, blah, blah.
Kids, this is what happens to you after two beers, blah, blah, blah.
Kids, this is what happens to you after ten beers, blah, blah, blah.
Kids, this is what happens to you after 25 beers, you pass out and die."
Paul "Beavis and Butthead" Pace, 8th grader, blurts out:
"I guess that's why they only put 24 beers in a case!"
—retold by Sara A.
PS: This is not a joke.

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"The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5) Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate of 3 million(14) multiplied by the 14% fatality rate he used in 1994 produces an annual death rate of 420,000 for drug errors and medical errors combined. Using this number instead of Lazorou's 106,000 drug errors and the Institute of Medicine 's (IOM) estimated 98,000 annual medical errors would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths annually. Our estimated 10-year total of 7.8 million iatrogenic* deaths is more than all the casualties from all the wars fought by the US throughout its entire history."
—Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; Dorothy Smith, PhD, Life Extension Magazine, -- "Death by Medicine", March 2004 (this does not include 1.5-million annual aborticides in USA that genocided 45-million Americans since US Supreme Court legalized genocide with Roe v Wade in 1973)
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_01.htm

"If you would like to be a serial killer, a hospital is a great place to be."
—Gary Brown, assistant US attorney general, A&E TV Network, Investigative Reports with Bill Curtis, "Angel of Death: Killer Nurse - Charles Cullen", March 1, 2004

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"There's a report out tonight that 24-years ago I was apprehended in Kennebunkport, Maine, for a DUI. That's an accurate story. I'm not proud of that. I oftentimes said that years ago I made some mistakes. I occasionally drank too much and I did on that night. I was pulled over. I admitted to the policeman that I had been drinking. I paid a fine. And I regret that it happened. But it did. I've learned my lesson."
—Governor George Bush Jr., rebroadcast on CNN Larry King Live, November 2, 2000

"There ought to be limits to freedom."
Governor George "Texascutioner" Bush Jr, May 21, 1999

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
—President-elect George "Texascutioner" Bush Jr, 5-time-convicted felon (including convictions for drunk driving, narcotics, and desertion from the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam Wars), CNN News, December 18, 2000

"The intruders discovered one room adorned with nothing but Nazi paraphernalia."
—Ron Rosenbaum, Esquire Magazine, "The Last Secrets of Skull & Bones", September 1977

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the TRUTH BECOMES THE GREATEST ENEMY OF THE STATE."
—Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels, NAZI Minister of Propaganda, who murdered his wife and 5 daughters in Hitler's bunker in Berlin, to avoid arrest and trial for warcrimes and treason

"There are some things the general public does not need to know and shouldn't. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows."
—Katharine Graham, chairman of the board, The Washington Post Company (inherited after her husband Philip "suicided" himself)

"The RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) action lawsuit against President Bush and other high level members of his administration is based upon prior knowledge of 9/11; knowingly failing to act, prevent or warn of 9/11; and the ongoing obstruction of justice by covering up the truth of 9/11; all in violation of the laws of the United States."
-Philip Berg, attorney-at-law and former prosecutor in U.S. Attorney General's office, www.911ForTheTruth.com, www.Geocities.com/ForTheTruth911, www.SueTheTerrorists.net, Press Release re Mariani v. Bush et al.

"'Enterprise' means any individual, sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, business trust, union chartered under the laws of this state, or other legal entity, or any unchartered union, association or group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity, and it includes illicit as well as licit enterprises, AND GOVERNMENTAL, as well as other, entities."
—Tennessee Code 39-12-203 (state RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Acts)

conspiracy.
An agreement by two or more persons to commit an unlawful act; a combination for unlawful purpose. In criminal law, conspiracy is a separate offense from the crime that is the object of the conspiracy. Also termed criminal conpsiracy.
—Black's Law Dictionary, 7th Ed.

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posted by hero:

I also note for the record that while there is no viable criminal case at this time, the victim has a hell of a civil case against Cheney and the property owner...civil standards of proof are much lower.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But I noticed that Hero and his doppleganger Cartoon ignore my common-sense posts. (snip)

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Actually I found your post to be quite worthy of a thoughtful response...except for the quip about my Prosecutorial credentials.

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I'm basically just agreeing with the few bits of sanity I've seen in here lately (which would include Geezer and Kwicko and perhaps a few others).

Grateful for the few voices of reason crying in a wilderness of ineptitude, folly, and imagined conspiracies.

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Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the major networks didn't carry the story like the title of this post.

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After all (as I've said elsewhere in this forum), we all know that Bush (which, I suppose, would have to include Cheney by association) is responsible for everything bad that's ever happened to mankind.

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Actually, I think in Texas you're required to shoot someone -- aren't you?

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Incidentally, I think next time Cheney should take the Washington Press Corps hunting with him. That would make a whole lot of people very happy.

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The big problem with your train of thought, Hero, is that it's logical, makes sense, and wasn't conceived while smoking an illegal substance.

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The thing you (and most intelligent, sane-thinking folks like you) don't understand is that everything is Cheney's fault.

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Even if Cheney was the person who'd been shot, and he didn't possess a gun, it would've been his fault.

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I agree. A lot of this stuff is hilarious. But, uh -- they, uh -- they actually believe it.

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rue wrote:

Actually, you're doing much more than that. I reviewed all of your posts. In them I found ad hominem attacks, straw-man arguments, false reasoning etc, and plain old flame-baiting in every sentence.

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Grateful for the few voices of reason crying in a wilderness of ineptitude, folly, and imagined conspiracies.

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