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Originally posted by BitterBierce:
As an intelligent woman once said, men don't become interesting till they're 30. You're definately proof of that.

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Originally posted by lissa:
i sort of love where this thread has gone:) so much more pleasant!

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Originally posted by Cartoon:
Guess, it's time for me to play decoy again. Hmmm...let's see. Can goof I gramatically be to misdirect to me attention again??

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Originally posted by singate:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
***River6213 quickly covers her mouth before she can say something mean***

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Quit being a tease and unload with both barrels. Would be kinda fitting considering how this thread started.

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We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Originally posted by BitterBierce:
As an intelligent woman once said, men don't become interesting till they're 30. You're definately proof of that.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Forget that! Last time I "unloaded" It turned out to be a 170 post miniseries, complete with high drama, not too great special effects, and an all star cast with lots of supporting actors, with a grand, seasons finale with Citizen, yelling at me from a very high hill. I don't want to go through that again.

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Originally posted by Retarded Moron Traitor Terrorist (aka Ruxton):
As some of you know, I test guns for a living and have done so for a great many years. I took exception to the claims made online recently (and discussed at length in various strings here on FFF.net) by a pack of so-called experts (Alex Jones/Infowars), who said Cheney lied. In fact, the testers lied.

There are currently many rumors and claims by "experts" circulating on the Internet that say Mr. Cheney lied about the range at which he shot Mr. Whittington. I do not particularly like Mr. Cheney, but have determined he was telling the truth:

MY OWN TESTS:
I just now, 3:45 PM, 2/19/06, performed the following tests. I used thin plastic gallon jugs full of water. On my range, at a measured 30 yards, I shot one jug with #7-1/2 shot, and the jug nearly exploded. Many shot pellets (about 50) remained inside the jug. Many more had gone through a full six inches of cold water and penetrated the far side of the jug.

Not content, I filled another plastic water jug with water at about 100 degrees, the approximate temperature of a man. I then covered the jug with three layers of cotton clothing. This time I used a precisely measured charge of 3/4-ounces of #7-1/2 shot, and hit this second jug from a measured 30 yards (not feet!). The jug was again fully penetrated several times, the pellets having traversed three layers of cotton clothing, 0.015" of plastic, six inches of water, and another 0.015" of plastic.

Thirty-seven (37) pellets remained inside of the jug, and the far side of the jug -- six inches of through-water penetration -- was very badly damaged from the shot where it didn't penetrate the last layer of plastic. In case readers don't know, water penetration is a VERY tough test of terminal ballistics, and far better than the cardboard" or rubber dummies or dead chickens (frozen?) used in the so-called experts' test.

The bottom line here is there is absolutely no reason to doubt what Mr. Cheney said. He shot Mr. Whittington at about 30 yards. There is neither controversy nor coverup here. Ballistics don't lie.

As my doctor/hunter friend (who was entirely correct in his assessment of the potential damage that could be done by #7-1/2 pellets at 30 yards, and which I doubted until today) put it, if Whittington had caught the full charge, or had been much closer to Cheney, he'd be dead. As it is, he's lucky to be alive.

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Thanks, Ruxton.
I like putting to rest a conspiracy theory just as much as exposing one.
In the end, all we want are answers, right?

But his utimate aim of world domination still bothers me Chrisisall

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Grammatically, it would work better to have 'to' be the last word in you sentance.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Hey, I caught that dissing of the republicans. I represent that remark. I think that actually, the assholes are evenly split. I don't think I'm one of them. But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

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Originally posted by Khyron:
I just realised something: this is what RWED would be like if we didn't have AURaptor, Hero, dreamtrove and the pirates (i.e. the people who tend to put their foot in it in one way or the other)... we'd be reduced to fixing each other's grammar and spelling.

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Originally posted by Khyron:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Hey, I caught that dissing of the republicans. I represent that remark. I think that actually, the assholes are evenly split. I don't think I'm one of them. But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

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Lol, not sure if I missed a post or two, but were you talking about this?

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There's no way I'd count the pirates as republican, and you're somewhere slightly right of middle, but not necessarily republican either, to my mind at least. And definitely not an asshole, by 'foot in it' I meant that you and the others sometimes go a bit too far with some of your statements, which gives other people a reason to debate. Without you guys, there probably wouldn't be any debates in RWED, at least not any fun ones. So it's all good .

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
24. That's what I would have guessed. I think now with Jenny here you are no longer the youngest.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:

Thanks to "Pirate" for posting that shot of Whittington. I knew my support of him on another thread would come in handy. Whittington's face shows VERY SIMILAR shot spread to what I got on my water jugs, shot at 30 yards. The patterns on his face PRECISELY reflect the shot spread I got on my water jugs. If I could post a picture I'd do so, but I prefer to wait and do so in the legitimate gun press, which will reach quite a few hundred thousand readers, rather than just a few hundred here. (I've already told Mike Rivero and Jeff Rense about this, but neither has acted on it yet.) If Whittington had been half as close as Cheney (correctly) claimed, the pellet marks on his face would be four times as dense, an easily seen thing. He'd also be dead. The pellet that lodged in the wall of his heart would have gone right through. (It almost certainly didn't "migrate" there, per a lengthy discussion with a doctor. It most likely penetrated the chest wall and lodged in the half-inch-thick wall of the heart, and only the next day or so did it cause enough inflammation to give trouble, much as if you stabbed yourself in the thigh with an icepick. The trouble would start from inflammation the next day or two, not immediately.)

To clarify, for the curious and openminded:

Shot velocity doesn't change with gauge. A 28-gauge gun slings its 3/4-ounce "game load" of shot at essentially the same velocity (about 1200-1300 fps) as a game load out of a 20, or 16, or 12, or 10 gauge gun. To put it another way, it does not matter what the gauge of the gun used was, shot velocity will be essentially identical in all gauges. The amount of shot, 3/4 ounce in this case, and the degree of choke (which has never published for Cheney's gun) are what determine the pellet density on the target. The same amount of shot fired from a larger bore will often give superior PATTERNS, meaning more even distribution of shot throughout its spread. (English gunmakers knew this over a century ago.) But three-quarters of an ounce of shot, whether fired from a .410, 28-gauge, 12-gauge, or what have you, will have essentially the SAME VELOCITY at 30 yards, no matter the gauge gun in which it was fired. The only difference may be in the QUALITY of the patterns.

What many don't understand is that a full-choked 12-bore will have a total spread of that 3/4-ounce of shot essentially IDENTICAL with the total spread of 3/4-ounce of shot from a full-choked 28-gauge barrel. This is hard even for many gun owners to grasp, but it is the simple truth. As noted, the shot will probably be more evenly distributed from the 12-bore, but not necessarily. There is no difference in the total spread between the two, and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER IN KILLING POWER BETWEEN THE TWO!!

This is another point of general ignorance seen across the Internet, and one which many, if not most, do not understand. When dolts don't understand these things, they say things like:

"Alex Jones at least bought the exact model and choke of shotgun, and used same shells as Cheney."

This is clear indication of "Joe Shotgun" thinking he knows something about guns, when he doesn't know JACK SHIT. BTW, the CHOKES of Cheney's gun have NEVER been published, nor was the MAKE of Alex Jones' gun published, but we can be quite sure he didn't pop $6000-$8000 for a Perazzi o/u. So this rant by the Pirate is just more CRAPPO from someone who doesn't know anything about guns, but think that if they make lots of noise and waste lots of space, they just might impress someone.

Even if the velocity is increased at the muzzle from hotter loads, say to 1500 fps, the rapid falloff of velocity would find the pellets from the lower-velocity load not much slower than the hotrod at 30 yards. The big difference in shotguns is the amount of shot each can sling. Some 12-bore loads throw as much as 2 ounces of shot, not the 28-gauge's 3/4 ounce. But that's not what I did. I carefully weighed the shot to get 3/4 ounce. And as you now know, it doesn't matter what gauge gun I fired it from.

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We used three cameras to film the test, two were fixed at different angles to the targets, the other was used to film Alex shooting the shotgun. In our group we had Raymond, a former NASA contract engineer from the Apollo program with prior service in the Air Force to make sure the measurements were correct. Another in our team was Karl, a former Airborne Infantrymen, M.P., weapons and self-defense instructor, and former law enforcement, to explain the nature of shot trajectory and wound ballistics. And finally there was Ryan and I on the cameras.
www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_shooting_scientific_proof.htm

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Originally posted by Ruxton:

BTW, when a doctor declares there is no need for surgery, yet a certain poster claims Whittington's skull was penetrated, do you believe that doctor or that poster?

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First Doctors to Treat Cheney's Victim Lost in Press Coverage

Editor & Publisher
February 17, 2006

"They had arranged the HELO-flight before(Whittington) even showed up," Subnani said. "The emergency room doctor had already decided he should be transferred." Subnani said he disagreed with the decision, believing Whittington could have spent the night in Kingsville.

Asked specifically about this, Dr. Martin refused to comment, "I was not going to question(Whittington's) judgment, though," Subnani said. "He was worried about some of the pellets in the sinuses." He added that the Corpus Christi hospital had doctors better able to diagnose such an ear, nose, and throat problem. "They did not think he should stay," Subnani added, "because this hospital was not really equipped for a trauma case."

That is why some reporters have questioned why Whittington was taken by ambulance to this hospital when he could have just as easily been driven to Corpus Christi right away -- or picked up by helicopter at the shooting scene.

Whittington eventually left the first hospital via helicopter at about 7:45 p.m., Subnani recalled. When asked if Whittington's eventual heart attack indicated that Subnani's original diagnoses that the wounds were not severe was wrong, the doctor defended his determination. "At that age (78), we don't know the extent of his coronary situation," he said. "That is hard to predict, what really caused that arrhythmia."

Subnani added that he has not been interviewed by any law enforcement or investigative agents working on the case. "No one has talked to me," he said.

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"While Cheney pays any hunting fees or lodging expenses if charged, taxpayers invariably pick up much of the cost of Cheney's hunting hobby. As with his predecessors, the government pays for Secret Service agents, military aides and the rest of the entourage that travels with vice presidents wherever they go, as well as the expense of Air Force Two. But it is not clear how much that costs. The budget lists $1 million for the vice president's annual travel, including his official duties, but the figure is rounded to the nearest million, according to the Center for Public Integrity."
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR20060218011
47_pf.html

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Originally posted by Cartoon:

You can generally tell a poster's age by the certainty with which they declare their beliefs. The younger they are, the more certain they are that they're right and everyone else is -- uh, that unseemly body part (I was that way, myself for a lot longer than I'd care to admit).

The older one gets, they will usually discover at some point that the sun doesn't revolve around them and they are occasionally (and in my case -- more often than not) in error.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
An Apple ][e, on 2/27/83

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Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
An Apple ][e, on 2/27/83

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some of what you posted is a surreptitious insult directed at me

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Secret Service says Cheney was DRUNK when he shot lawyer

Written report by SS agents: "inebriated" VP consumed alcohol before, during and after hunting espedition.

Doug Thompson,
Capitol Hill Blue,
February 22 2006.

A written report from Secret Service agents guarding Vice President Dick Cheney when he shot Texas lawyer Harry Whittington on a hunting outing two weeks ago says Cheney was "clearly inebriated" at the time of the shooting.

Agents observed several members of the hunting party, including the Vice President, consuming alcohol before and during the hunting expedition, the report notes, and Cheney exhibited "visible signs" of impairment, including slurred speech and erratic actions, the report said.

According to those who have read the report and talked with others present at the outing, Cheney was drunk when he gunned down his friend and the day-and-a-half delay in allowing Texas law enforcement officials on the ranch where the shooting occurred gave all members of the hunting party time to sober up.

We talked with a number of administration officials who are privy to inside information on the Vice President's shooting "accident" and all admit Secret Service agents and others saw Cheney consume far more than the "one beer' he claimed he drank at lunch earlier that day.

"This was a South Texas hunt," says one White House aide. "Of course there was drinking. There's always drinking. Lots of it."

Cheney has a long history of alcohol abuse, including two convictions of driving under the influence when he was younger. Doctors tell me that someone like Cheney, who is taking blood thinners because of his history of heart attacks, could get legally drunk now after consuming just one drink.

If Cheney was legally drunk at the time of the shooting, he could be guilty of a felony under Texas law and the shooting, ruled an accident by a compliant Kenedy County Sheriff, would be a prosecutable offense.

But we will never know for sure because the owners of the Armstrong Ranch, where the shooting occurred, barred the sheriff's department from the property on the day of the shooting and Kenedy County Sheriff Ramon Salinas III agreed to wait until the next day to send deputies in to talk to those involved.

Sheriff's Captain Charles Kirk says he went to the Armstrong Ranch immediately after the shooting was reported on Saturday, February 11 but both he and a game warden were not allowed on the 50,000-acre property. He called Salinas who told him to forget about it and return to the station.

"I told him don't worry about it. I'll make a call," Salinas said. The sheriff claims he called another deputy who moonlights at the Armstrong ranch, said he was told it was "just an accident" and made the decision to wait until Sunday to investigate.

"We've known these people for years. They are honest and wouldn't call us, telling us a lie," Salinas said.

Like all elected officials in Kenedy County, Salinas owes his job to the backing and financial support of Katherine Armstrong, owner of the ranch and the county's largest employer.

"The Armstrongs rule Kenedy County like a fiefdom," says a former employee.

Secret Service officials also took possession of all tests on Whittington's blood at the hospitals where he was treated for his wounds. When asked if a blood alcohol test had been performed on Whittington, the doctors who treated him at Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial in Corpus Christi or the hospital in Kingsville refused to answer. One admits privately he was ordered by the Secret Service to "never discuss the case with the press."

It's a sure bet that is a private doctor who treated the victim of Cheney's reckless and drunken actions can't talk to the public then the memo that shows the Vice President was drunk as a skunk will never see the light of day.

www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/02/secret_service_agents_say_chen.ht
ml

See also:

Dick Cheney's 2 DUI CONVICTIONS court files:
www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheney_doc.html

"There's a report out tonight that 24-years ago I was apprehended in Kennebunkport, Maine, for a DUI. That's an accurate story. I'm not proud of that. I oftentimes said that years ago I made some mistakes. I occasionally drank too much and I did on that night. I was pulled over. I admitted to the policeman that I had been drinking. I paid a fine. And I regret that it happened. But it did. I've learned my lesson."
—Governor George Bush Jr., rebroadcast on CNN Larry King Live, November 2, 2000
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0011/02/lkl.00.html

Kennbunkport Maine Police Report of Bush Arrest Record:
www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdui1.html

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