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Originally posted by Geezer:
Authority and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. The responsibility side seems to be missing in this case.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
My guess is that this one will fail. Reason: the law doesn't make exceptions on issues even conserative justices might find extreme.

Point 1: Health of the Mother has to be respected.

Point 2: In general the law does not let people benefit from their crimes.

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Originally posted by cartoon:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Authority and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. The responsibility side seems to be missing in this case.

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I agree. But, the time for responsible choice is before the "unwanted" pregnancy, not after.

But people want to have what they want without bearing any responsibility for their actions. They want to eat their cake and still have it.

It's very simple. If you don't want to have a child, don't engage in the activity that produces a child.

What ever happened to self control?

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Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
That’s fine, but you can’t use that argument to say that there would be more deaths/aborted fetuses if abortion were illegal. Just because back alley abortions may be more risky to the mother’s health, in general, does not mean that the mother will die all the time or even most of the time. And all the evidence, that I’ve seen, concerning the number of such abortions occurring prior to 1973 suggests that abortion occurred much less then it has during legalized abortion.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by cartoon:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Authority and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. The responsibility side seems to be missing in this case.

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I agree. But, the time for responsible choice is before the "unwanted" pregnancy, not after.

But people want to have what they want without bearing any responsibility for their actions. They want to eat their cake and still have it.

It's very simple. If you don't want to have a child, don't engage in the activity that produces a child.

What ever happened to self control?

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Too bad you didn't actually read my post, and just went for your keywords. You might want to try again and read the whole thing this time.

A woman who became pregnant due to rape or incest has no choice in the matter. Neither does a woman who wished to bear children but finds out during early screening that the fetus has severe medical problems, or that the pregnancy is a danger to her health.

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Actually, I did read your post. And I'm left to believe that abortions performed for the reasons you stated above are likely to be a minimal number. (Anyone have such figures?) I'd guess that the vast majority (if not nearly all) abortions are done as a means of birth control (convenience)(i.e. the selfish reason I stated above), and not for the reasons you mentioned above.

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* 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
* 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
* 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
* 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
* 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
* 7.9% of women want no (more) children.
* 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
* 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

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Originally posted by Dinky:
I'd like to add some more 2 cents and say that I believe Pregnancy is a sacrifice.

It's supposed to be. I, as a Catholic believe that God made it this way, he knew that rapes were going to happen and problems at birth were going to happen. But he probably made it this way so it wound up being a choice that was made in the goodness of our hearts.

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It's just one of those tough choices that people have to face that's just part of life.

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I just think that a new younger life is more important than the life of the older more mature woman.

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Originally posted by Dinky:
I'd like to add some more 2 cents and say that I believe Pregnancy is a sacrifice.

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Originally posted by cartoon:
P.S.S. Geezer, I wasn't trying to take you out of context or pick on you. I disagree with you on much of this issue, but I have to respect someone who served their country -- as I'm imagining you have (if that pic is of you -- and I'm guessing the Corps). No matter what I think of your views, I'm grateful for your service.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Although I did serve my country in the late south-east Asian unpleasantness (Vietnam conflict), the picture is of a youngish Robert Heinlein, although he does look strangely like my father's WWII photos.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
And I got no problem with you having your own opinion of morality or immorality in the 21st century. When you attempt to force it, and its results, on other folks who have different opinions, I do have a problem.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I think a fair few of illegal abortions won't be in the statistics, strangely enough .

But it's not just death, figures I've seen put infertility at quite a high rate, so many subsequent children that would have been born don't.

You know the potential for creating a child is there, whether there is a child or not, so making a Woman infertile, based on the RTL argument as I see it, is as bad as abortion.

In fact random thought, shouldn't hysterectomies be banned for the same reasons?

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Originally posted by citizen:
But what about all the babies that are born that are left too die or are killed, or abandoned, or died as a result of genetic deficiency, or the Mothers that died during child birth, shouldn't they also be counted in the figures?

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Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
Infertility is not abortion, and a fetus never conceived cannot be killed so it cannot add to the causality list. You’re just grasping at straws now.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Not really, four cells with slightly differing genetic code to the host aren't exactly alive either. Even the RTL argument supports that, they say that it has the potential to become life, well so does a Sperm, so does an Egg, and by extension destroying fertility is destroying this potential, it's not grasping a straws, it's taking the argument to its logical conclusion.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
How many sperm exists in an ounce of semen? Millions I would guess. Hustler and Playboy then become responsible for conceivably billions or trillions of aborted fetuses every year.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by citizen:
Not really, four cells with slightly differing genetic code to the host aren't exactly alive either. Even the RTL argument supports that, they say that it has the potential to become life, well so does a Sperm, so does an Egg, and by extension destroying fertility is destroying this potential, it's not grasping a straws, it's taking the argument to its logical conclusion.

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Actually, an embryo is alive, but that’s not the point.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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God made it this way, he knew that rapes were going to happen and problems at birth were going to happen. But he probably made it this way so it wound up being a choice that was made in the goodness of our hearts.p

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That's the party line, but like so many party lines, it's untrue. I mean really, have you ever spoken to someone on the other side of the issue? The pro-lifers I've talked with could care less about the woman, much less had any vested interest in "controlling" her.. their sole focus was on the kiddo inside, and not wanting it killed. And like DT said, there's at least as many chicks on the pro-life side.

So hey.. believe what you believe.. but make sure you believe it for real reasons.

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because it is, just reading some of the comments in this thread its pretty obvious wether your conscious of it or not, some of the comments have been downright hateful. Its our bodies not yours and we can do what we like with it.



Don't hate me because I have the power to give life and take it away and you don't

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Originally posted by PirateJenny:
what God are you talking about???, because I've read the bible and the God in the Christian Bible isn't a very nice, good, or loving being,creature. if I had to attach a label to it, manaic would be a perfect discription, he's playing mind games telling people to murder their children, actually murdering children, and starting wars and conflicts, and manipulating people , seems pretty blood thirsty to me, so this statement doesn't add up.

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but on another note, the pro-lifers are a joke. if they put their money where their mouth is abortion probably wouldn't be an issue. Support programs and legistlation that benifit children, make a college education available to anyone who qualifies, up the minium wage, have a state run healthcare system, make it desireable for women to have children and they will.But thats not likely to happen, like I said before its mostly the poor and uneducated who have high birth rates, Latino and Blacks make up that majority. Most of the low birth rates come from educated white women who can't have or who don't want children or not very many Children. Behind it all race like so many things in America is the hot button issue behind the abortion issue. Thats why they want to teach creationism in schools, they want to see women dumbed down, barefoot an pregnant just like it was back in the good old days ( which was the horrible old days for most women.

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Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Scientifically I have to disagree. Not on your claim of an embryo as "alive" per se, but on the jump from 4 cells to embryo. 4 cells does not an embryo make. 4 cells isn't even a blastocyst. At the 4 cell stage, the cells haven't even implanted in the endometrium and the legal definition of "pregnancy" is implantation. Hell, the 4 cell stage hasn't even left the fallopian tube yet. The embryo doesn't exist until the inner cell mass of the blastocyst starts to differentiate and that occurs about a week or so after fertilization.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Already covered by Monty Python in "the Meaning of Life"

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Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20:

Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

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Originally posted by citizen:
No Finn, thats their argument, not mine.

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My thought on the issue, for what it's worth, is that since the thing has fully unique DNA right from the get go, it's a fully distinct entity--a new human being, irrespective of its developmental stage. Being that that's the case, I don't see why the fact that it is inside a woman should be grounds for killing it.

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That's a good point. I think creationism in schools is a little wider than keeping Women under the boot, more to do with keeping the masses down and a backlash from Christian fundamentals over their loss of power and control. Most likely they see the Middle East, and the religious control that militant fundamentalist have over their fellow man and think "I want that too".

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