REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

any christians here in this entire site please stand up

POSTED BY: LEELU7777
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 17:15
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Sunday, March 12, 2006 4:31 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Crackers:
Well if you really want to get technical about it the Israelites are Mesopatamian. Abraham came from the ancient city of Ur - which translates in modern terms to ancient Iraq.

That’s the story. Abraham then moves to Canaan, because god has promise the land of Canaan to the Hebrews. This is a common theme throughout the old books of the bible. The Hebrews are always depicted as going to Canaan.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:12 AM

CAPTAINREYNOLDS


I am a Christian and I am proud to say so

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Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


LEELU7777, RIVER6213, JUGGLESGEESE, CARTOON, HAZE, DAX82, GIZMO, PIFFLE101, RUMFINATOR, CRACKERS, CAPTAINREYNOLDS

I was wondering what it means to you to be Christian?

So I'd appreciate your responses, but I'm also curious about specifics:

Do you worry about money?
Do you support war and the death penalty?
Do you love everyone? (enemies included)



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:55 PM

KAYLEESASSISTANTMECHANIC


Hey, still in my first few posts but I love the show.

Don't want to upset anyone, but I can honestly say (being a Christian) that very few people are brought to a relationship with God by discussing the minutiae of historical detail and archaelogical finds. I love archaeology and Biblical History, and there is evidence for the validity of the Bible, but in the end it is God, through the Spirit, who brings people to him, and not us.

In response to one of the first posts I read, I love when an atheist says to me that they hate me. Or they think I'm brainwashed. It is a great opportunity. As a Christian, you shouldn't take insult when the world hates you, because they hated Jesus first, and he promised that you would be hated.

Jesus himself said that love was the greatest of all things to aspire to, which means that even if we don't agree, we should love, respect and cherish one another - not because we deserve it - because we are all created by God and equally in need of him.

There is an abundance of evidence for the truth in the Christian faith, but there is a huge gap between that evidence and its conclusion (that God and his Son Jesus are Sovereign). That gap is faith, and we can only bridge it through Christ.

Right, I've got to go be sociable, as people are swarming my house.
Look forward to talking to you all again.

Pete.



((( I don't like pink, but a gorgeous mechanic in a frumpy pink dress just might do it for me... I should stop talking. Forever. )))

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Monday, March 13, 2006 5:58 AM

CRACKERS


G'day Finn. Yes you are right about Abraham and his crew moving into Caanan. Didn't want to get to techbical sprouting off historical jargon.
Anyway good to make your aquantence.


Being CRACKERS provides sanity in an insane world!

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Monday, March 13, 2006 6:31 AM

CAPTAINREYNOLDS


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
LEELU7777, RIVER6213, JUGGLESGEESE, CARTOON, HAZE, DAX82, GIZMO, PIFFLE101, RUMFINATOR, CRACKERS, CAPTAINREYNOLDS

I was wondering what it means to you to be Christian?

So I'd appreciate your responses, but I'm also curious about specifics:

Do you worry about money?
Do you support war and the death penalty?
Do you love everyone? (enemies included)



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.




to respond to your specific questions

Do you worry about money? i dont really know what you mean, but i feel this way about money: 10 percent of what you make should be given back to God, and the rest is yours to do with as you please

Do you support war and the death penalty? yes, i do support war and the death penalty, because it says in the Bible "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"

Do you love everyone? i cannot say that i do, but i know that i should

aside from those questions, i can say that being a Christian means following God, and doing what is right regardless of what people think about it...moral purity, and all that

feel free to ask any more questions

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Monday, March 13, 2006 9:55 AM

SWORDOFWHEDON


Quote:

As a Christian, you shouldn't take insult when the world hates you, because they hated Jesus first, and he promised that you would be hated.


"I'm not brainwashed, but I repeat what's been beaten(verbally) into me all my life, the Christian persecution complex". The entire religion is based on the supposed persecution of a man for which there is no contemporary historical evidence. You do know that every cult in the world uses the same strategy right?

Look at Scientology for a nice contemporary example, or the Mormons(whose founding was so obviously a fraud that everyone simply laughed them out of town in New England)

Quote:

Do you worry about money? i dont really know what you mean, but i feel this way about money: 10 percent of what you make should be given back to God, and the rest is yours to do with as you please


So how do you know that your God is getting it? I've never seen a published account or donation service officially endorsed by the Deity, and what does he need with cash anyway? Being all powerful he can make tons of it with the snap of a finger. You're giving your money to frauds, who use your religion to line their pockets. Until they can produce God, and have him testify in court who his One True(TM) Banker is, you have no way of knowing, and based on the history of religion and money, calling shenanigans is simply a logical conclusion.

Quote:

Do you support war and the death penalty? yes, i do support war and the death penalty, because it says in the Bible "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"


How about "thou shalt not kill" (unless of course god orders you to go over and genocide the nonbelievers)? Do you believe that gays and shrimp eaters should be executed on the spot? Do you believe children should be eaten by a bear for making fun of a bald man? How about women being forced into silence in public? Selling children into slavery? That if you have mildew in your house and killing birds over water with scarlet yarn and hysop doesn't work you have to knock down your house and drag it to the holy dumping ground?. You can't cherry pick your holy text.

Here's question (though I'd like answers on the above as well), do you support the death penalty, but condemn abortion?


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Monday, March 13, 2006 11:38 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
How about "thou shalt not kill" (unless of course god orders you to go over and genocide the nonbelievers)?

Here's question (though I'd like answers on the above as well), do you support the death penalty, but condemn abortion?


Something from the tone of your post makes me wonder why I'm bothering to answer this, as I doubt that anything I (or any other believer) says is going to satisfy you one way or the other, but in the event that I've mistaken the sincerity of your post (if I have, I apologize in advance), I'll do my best to answer your last query.

I would need to go into a thousand page response to answer all of your questions, as there are no simple, quote-from-one-verse answers to most of them. However, if you'd like serious answers, I'm willing to do so privately at your request -- again, to the best of my ability.

Regarding your question about not "killing"...

The Hebrew* reads "murder", not "kill". There's a big difference.

The Hebrew word incorrectly translated as "kill" in a lot of English translations of Exodus 20 is "ratsach". There are several different Hebrew words for "killing", including (but not limited to): "harag" another word for murder; "shachat" to kill as in animal sacrifices; "muwuth" to kill anything, etc.

Murder is the intentional taking of innocent human life. Killing would include the taking of any kind of life (human, animal, plant), including unintentionally. Unintentional killing, or intentional "legal" killing (as in war or execution of capital offenders) is fully authorized by scripture, and not considered "murder" (the Hebrew words "ratsach" and "harag" are never used when describing manslaughter, execution, killing in war, or the killing of animals and plants; they are only used for murder).

Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
You can't cherry pick your holy text...


No argument there. But, one also can't take a single sentence out of the context of the whole of scripture. Some of the issues you mentioned are far to complex to explain away with a reference to a single passsage.


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Monday, March 13, 2006 2:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So how do you know that your God is getting it? I've never seen a published account or donation service officially endorsed by the Deity, and what does he need with cash anyway? Being all powerful he can make tons of it with the snap of a finger. You're giving your money to frauds, who use your religion to line their pockets. Until they can produce God, and have him testify in court who his One True(TM) Banker is, you have no way of knowing
Seen as actual graffiti:

"JESUS SAVES!"

And, written in reply: "But Moses invests"


Also, second-best graffitit: "Jesus was killed by preachers and politicians".

Sometimes, from the mouths of babes...

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Monday, March 13, 2006 2:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Regarding your question about not "killing"...

The Hebrew* reads "murder", not "kill". There's a big difference.

But then it seems to me that Jesus superceded the OT. He could have killed those who killed him- evildoers that they were- but he didn't. In fact, I don't know of any instance in the Bible where Jesus killed anyone, and only one instance where he got pissed off (at the money changers in the Temple). So as far as I can tell, the NEW Testament message is- love your neighbor as yourself. "Thou shall not kill" is just a small subset of loving your neighbor.

Unless of course you want to justify war and capital punishment, in which case nevermind.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Monday, March 13, 2006 6:34 PM

IMALEAFONTHEWIND


Ah, this is a fan site, not a place to abuse believers and non believers. I am a christian and love firefly

Gld loves SCIFI

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Monday, March 13, 2006 7:27 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Crackers:
G'day Finn. Yes you are right about Abraham and his crew moving into Caanan. Didn't want to get to techbical sprouting off historical jargon.
Anyway good to make your aquantence.

And you as well!

Though perhaps my last post was confusing; my point was that while Abraham may have been Mesopotamian or even Sumerian, the Hebrews themselves seem to have been a Punic (or maybe proto-Punic? Proto-Semitic?) Bedouin culture that roamed throughout the Middle East and eventually settled in what would later become Phoenicia.
Quote:

Originally posted by Imaleafonthewind:
Ah, this is a fan site, not a place to abuse believers and non believers. I am a christian and love firefly

I agree. This discussion was fun when it was about history, but the moralistic back and forth that some seem to want to discuss is not my cup of tea. Religion is what it is, but it is rarely debatable. If people wish to discuss socio-politics that’s one thing, but personally, I don’t think it should be use as a guise to ridicule Christians or any other religion.

Anyhow, I think the history part of the discussion seems to have waned, and since I couldn’t care less about the rest of it, this seems like a good stopping point (for me).



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:20 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But then it seems to me that Jesus superceded the OT. He could have killed those who killed him- evildoers that they were- but he didn't. In fact, I don't know of any instance in the Bible where Jesus killed anyone, and only one instance where he got pissed off (at the money changers in the Temple). So as far as I can tell, the NEW Testament message is- love your neighbor as yourself. "Thou shall not kill" is just a small subset of loving your neighbor.


Jesus did not supercede the OT, and clearly said so (as I've repeatedly pointed out).

Jesus clearly accepted the OT (which was the same in His day as it is today) as the authoritative, inerrant word of God (and not something made up by man, as many today imply), and likewise He clearly stated that He had not come to change or do away with one jot or tittle of it.

One can chose to accept that Jesus, Himself, said He did not come to supercede (or change in the least) any of the OT, or one can chose to ignore that He said that, and make up any implication one would like.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Whether he stated that he did or not, there is clearly a difference between Jesus' life and teaching versus "Thou shall not murder" and "an eye for an eye". Only a sophist* would fail to see that... let's not call it a "contradiction"... how about "new direction"? So, how do you resolve it? Which teaching do you follow: "Love your neighbor" or "Thou shall not murder"?

Sophist:
1a. One skilled in elaborate and devious argumentation.
1b. A scholar or thinker.
2. Sophist Any of a group of professional fifth-century b.c. Greek philosophers and teachers who speculated on theology, metaphysics, and the sciences, and who were later characterized by Plato as superficial manipulators of rhetoric and dialectic.


---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:46 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Whether he stated that he did or not, there is clearly a difference between Jesus' life and teaching versus "Thou shall not murder" and "an eye for an eye". Only a sophist* would fail to see that... let's not call it a "contradiction"... how about "new direction"?


There is no contradiction or change of direction. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament -- by His own words. And He very plainly claimed He was not changing the least part of it. I see no problem, contradiction, or change of direction with Jesus's claim.

BTW, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is in OT (see Leviticus 19:18), so there's nothing new about it. Also, (as one of my commentaries puts it) the "eye for eye" business was designed to curb exaggerated revenge, and expressed a principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offense. Jesus's opposition (Mt. 5:38) was not to the premise, but to it's misuse -- not an abrogation of the principle of equivalence, but a call to temper its application in light of the love commandment, in the interests of the kingdom -- specifically that believers should not seek retaliation (which, although "lawful" for them to seek would not be in accordance with their witness for His glory on earth) (see Mt. 5:10-12).

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:53 AM

SWORDOFWHEDON


Quote:

I would need to go into a thousand page response to answer all of your questions, as there are no simple, quote-from-one-verse answers to most of them. However, if you'd like serious answers, I'm willing to do so privately at your request -- again, to the best of my ability


Go for it, just remember you justified your opinion with one sentence on "eye for an eye"

Quote:

The Hebrew* reads "murder", not "kill". There's a big difference.

The Hebrew word incorrectly translated as "kill" in a lot of English translations of Exodus 20 is "ratsach". There are several different Hebrew words for "killing", including (but not limited to): "harag" another word for murder; "shachat" to kill as in animal sacrifices; "muwuth" to kill anything, etc.



True, but I'm sick of being corrected by people who don't know that, hence sticking with the "kill"

Quote:

Murder is the intentional taking of innocent human life


Dictionary(legal and websters) disagrees. Murder is UNLAWFUL killing. There is no qualifier for innocence.

Quote:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
A flock of crows.



Quote:

No argument there. But, one also can't take a single sentence out of the context of the whole of scripture. Some of the issues you mentioned are far to complex to explain away with a reference to a single passsage.



I'm going to take that to mean "Never heard of any of that stuff before, better look it up"

Let me save you the trouble:

God Sends Bear to eat mean children who make fun of a bald man:

Quote:

2 Kings
2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. (2:23-24)

2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.



God Hates Tilex

Quote:

Leviticus
14:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
14:35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
14:36 Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
14:37 And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
14:38 Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
14:39 And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
14:40 Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
14:41 And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
14:42 And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
14:43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
14:44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house; it is unclean.
14:45 And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.
14:46 Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
14:47 And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
14:48 And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
14:54 This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
14:55 And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
14:56 And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
14:57 To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.



God Hates Shrimp

Quote:

11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.



So Sodomy (who for the record weren't gay, just general assholes, otherwise Lott wouldn't have offered them his virgin daughters) and shrimp eating, both abominations. Whoohoo!

Actually, he's not much of a God anyway, because when the Jews went into (or attacked) Caanan for some reason God had some problems....

Quote:



Judges

1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.



Good thing Lucifer didn't know about that one :)

Quote:

I agree. This discussion was fun when it was about history, but the moralistic back and forth that some seem to want to discuss is not my cup of tea. Religion is what it is, but it is rarely debatable. If people wish to discuss socio-politics that’s one thing, but personally, I don’t think it should be use as a guise to ridicule Christians or any other religion.


See, the problem is always that once a theist, whatever their bent, is proven wrong, then it becomes hate speech or ridicule, because it's made them uncomfortable.


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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

BTW, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is in OT (see Leviticus 19:18), so there's nothing new about it. Also, (as one of my commentaries puts it) the "eye for eye" business was designed to curb exaggerated revenge, and expressed a principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offense. Jesus's opposition (Mt. 5:38) was not to the premise, but to it's misuse -- not an abrogation of the principle of equivalence, but a call to temper its application in light of the love commandment, in the interests of the kingdom -- specifically that believers should not seek retaliation (which, although "lawful" for them to seek would not be in accordance with their witness for His glory on earth) (see Mt. 5:10-12).
So although it's "legal" to tit-for-tat, it's not what Jesus would "recommend"? I dunno- perhaps I got the NT wrong but my impression that loving your neighbor meant loving your neighbor: if he demand your cloak give him your shirt also, let he who is without sin, and so forth. I don't see how you can have two sets of rules. Either loving your neighbor is a commandment, or it's a "recommended practice"... something you do for bonus points.

Also, there are large parts of the OT I can't imagine Jesus condoning: offering virgin daughters to the crowd, for example.

But then again, there is the Gospel of Thomas which appears to be even older than the synpotic Gospels and possibly derived from the earliest version (Q1 or Q2) and it's quite harsh, so maybe the "real" message of Jesus isn't as fuzzy and warm as I was taught.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:34 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
Go for it, just remember you justified your opinion with one sentence on "eye for an eye"


Actually, I never brought up the "eye for eye" quote -- but I was responding to it (above).

Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
True, but I'm sick of being corrected by people who don't know that, hence sticking with the "kill"


Okay. So the facts don't matter to you. The Bible says "murder", but "kill" suits your argument better, so heck with what the Bible says. I see.

Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
Dictionary(legal and websters) disagrees. Murder is UNLAWFUL killing. There is no qualifier for innocence.


Firstly, it's God's (not Webster's) definition of murder that counts. Secondly, killing someone in war or a criminal via execution is not taking "innocent" life.

Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
I'm going to take that to mean "Never heard of any of that stuff before, better look it up"


Actually, I've heard of it all. I've been studying the Bible (English, Hebrew & Greek) from cover to cover for decades.

[EDIT: I don't want to imply by this statement that I have all the answers. I don't. While some passages of the scripture are clearly beyond understanding (certainly my understanding), many of the passages frequently taken out of context and abused are readily explanable when taken in context to the whole of scripture by persons who've obviously made the effort and taken the time to do that.]

This forum is not the place for a point by point discussion with someone who obviously hasn't studied the Bible in context. I'm willing to do so privately with each and every individual in here who has sincere questions about it.

I am not, however, willing to waste my time debating with people who don't want to know what it actually says, but only want to pick verses entirely out of context of the whole to accuse those of us who believe in it as being fools and idiots.

Been there, done that. Won't waste my time on it with argumentative folks who obviously already know all there is to know about everything.

My Lord commanded me to be ready to give an account of my faith whenever anyone asks. I have done that. He also commanded me that when the gospel is rejected in blatant unbelief, that I am to wipe the dust from my feet and move on. I am doing that here and now from those who are obviously too intelligent for me to be of any assistance, anyhow.

Anyone who is seriously interested in discussing any of these topics, feel free to contact me, and I will discuss anything at length. Otherwise, believe it or not, I have better things to do with my time.

Quote:

Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
See, the problem is always that once a theist, whatever their bent, is proven wrong, then it becomes hate speech or ridicule, because it's made them uncomfortable.


Whatever greases your gears, sir. Have a nice day.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:44 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So although it's "legal" to tit-for-tat, it's not what Jesus would "recommend"? I dunno- perhaps I got the NT wrong but my impression that loving your neighbor meant loving your neighbor: if he demand your cloak give him your shirt also, let he who is without sin, and so forth. I don't see how you can have two sets of rules. Either loving your neighbor is a commandment, or it's a "recommended practice"... something you do for bonus points.


Okay, maybe my last explanation was a bit ambiguous, so let me try one last time...

The "eye for an eye" was to curb exaggerated revenge, and expressed a principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offense.

For example, if person A cut off person B's arm, person A was not to be put to death, because person B was not killed.

If person A tore off person B's finger, person A was not to lose an arm, because person B didn't lose their arm as a result of the actions of person B.

If person A destroyed person B's goat, person A was not to take away person B's house.

The premise of an "eye for an eye" was to protect the guilty from exaggerated punishment. What about that doesn't make sense or seem in someway harsh or cruel?

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Also, there are large parts of the OT I can't imagine Jesus condoning: offering virgin daughters to the crowd, for example.


Where does it say that God endorsed Lot's action? It doesn't. It is recording an historical event -- plain and simple. If I write an article about how Booth assassinated Lincoln, does that imply that I'm endorsing Booth's actions, simply by stating factually that it happened?

Yes, Jesus endorsed the Hebrew scriptures as being the inerrant, authoritative word of God -- everything in them is true and recorded accurately -- and where the scriptures record that "The Lord said...", the Lord did indeed say.

However, to imply that this means that Jesus endorsed or condoned the individual actions of individual human beings which are recorded in those scriptures is silly. I know, you don't actually believe that that is what I'm saying. The scriptures are chock full of accounts of sin. No one believes that Jesus was condoning the sinful actions recorded therein.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So- what do you think of the Gospel of Thomas? Lacking a narrative structure, it is strictly about "And Jesus said..." But what Jesus said doesn't quite match up with what Jesus said in the synoptic Gospels.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:13 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So- what do you think of the Gospel of Thomas? Lacking a narrative structure, it is strictly about "And Jesus said..." But what Jesus said doesn't quite match up with what Jesus said in the synoptic Gospels.


Well, I try to only speak about things about which I actually know something (don't laugh it's true). I haven't read that book or studied its origins. If I ever get a chance to study from whence it was derived, I might be able to offer an opinion. Short of that, though, I can't say.

I do understand, however, the means by which the first century church accepted books as "inspired", and (for reasons currently unknown to me -- see above) they chose not to believe this to be an inspired text -- perhaps for the reasons you stated above (I don't know, never studied it).

Note: When I say the first century church, I mean the body of believers as a whole, not some official council several centuries removed. The first century believers were in the best position to know the authenticity of the NT books, as the authors were still living when those books were initially circulated. It would've been hard for an "Epistle to Chicago" claiming to have been written by the Apostle Paul to show up in Rome in 55 AD, when all Paul would've had to have done would be to say, "Hey, folks, sorry, but that's not from me."

P.S. If we're going to continue this thread, can we please do so with a "part 2..." I have dial-up (I know. Laugh at me.) -- and it takes forever for this page to load. Much appreciated. Thank you.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:15 PM

SWORDOFWHEDON


Quote:

Okay. So the facts don't matter to you. The Bible says "murder", but "kill" suits your argument better, so heck with what the Bible says. I see.


No, it's just the default statement when dealing with unknown knowlege levels

Quote:

Firstly, it's God's (not Webster's) definition of murder that counts. Secondly, killing someone in war or a criminal via execution is not taking "innocent" life.



So until you can produce God to have him define the word murder for all of us, we'll stick with the dictionary, and the definitions under which you can be prosecuted under the law.

Quote:

Actually, I've heard of it all. I've been studying the Bible (English, Hebrew & Greek) from cover to cover for decades


Great, then explain why you would need a tome to explain all of those parts?

Quote:

This forum is not the place for a point by point discussion with someone who obviously hasn't studied the Bible in context. I'm willing to do so privately with each and every individual in here who has sincere questions about it.


None of those passages were taken out of context. "Out of Context" is in my experience simply a way to try to weasel out of contradictions, inconsistancies, and proveable falsehood. Of course, many of these things, like the ban on pork and shrimp have logical historical reasoning behind them. Improper storage and cooking can lead to food poisoning, parasites and disease. The fact they were made abmoination is one of the keys that this is the work of men, because had a deity actually wanted to communicate something they would have A- Made the disease non-existant in the first place, or at least provided detailed cooking and storage instructions.

Quote:

I am not, however, willing to waste my time debating with people who don't want to know what it actually says, but only want to pick verses entirely out of context of the whole to accuse those of us who believe in it as being fools and idiots.


If I were to accuse you of anything, it would be insanity. Belief in invisisble things with absolutely no evidence is delusional, especially with the mass of peer-reviewable scientific evidence to the contrary. If you were advocating Froo-Froo the purple hippo with equal fervor they'd put you away.

Quote:

My Lord commanded me to be ready to give an account of my faith whenever anyone asks. I have done that. He also commanded me that when the gospel is rejected in blatant unbelief, that I am to wipe the dust from my feet and move on. I am doing that here and now from those who are obviously too intelligent for me to be of any assistance, anyhow.


Really? When? Do you have it written down? Some kind of official document and photo record? I'd amend that to "My priest/pastor/bishop etc told me so"
You know they say when you talk to god, that's being human, when God talks back that's schizophrenia.

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