My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is) by chrisisall

The universe is pretty efficient in its pattern of growth; energy becomes matter, returns to a state of energy, on and on, with nothing left out of balance for long, and no possibility of ‘waste’.

The idea of ‘a god’, who has ‘a plan’ doesn’t fit into my thinking, because that would mean that everything; every act, every motion on every level of existence would be scripted, and where would be the fun in that for anyone who would be god?

I see the universe as being supportive of forward motion – call it life or evolution, but neutral in regard to the freedom to act as we choose (insofar as it is possible to think that we have real choice, affected by a myriad of influences from DNA to social programming, to the fact that we ourselves are host to our own universe of tiny creatures), because within that freedom to act as we choose is the balance that must eventually be achieved. To that end, I suspect that we are all bound to this creation, forever, and that ultimately we are one with everything. So, in the world according to me, you’re stuck with me guys, better get used to it because I am you.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Monday, March 13, 2006 7:03 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So either God doesn't exist as an all-powerful conscious and seperate entity (I mean, he can't be evil, right?), or he's off on some kind of 2,000 year errand, and just doesn't know what's been goin' down here on Earth...

It would have to be a longer errand then 2000 years, since the kind of thing your talking about was more common over 2000 years ago then today, at least, per capita in the Western world. And I think that is part of the problem. God was never looked upon as a feel good character, as some people want to present him today. The concept of God in the Bible evolved in a world where the responsibility to act and think correctly was solely placed on the shoulders of men, not God, and in some ways this makes the Biblical brimstone and fire depiction of god more mature and more natural then the depiction held by some of the more “liberal” religions. We live in a world today where we have a standard of living that is unprecedented in all of human history, and we take that for granted, but the truth is that it is our lofty standard of living and our arrogant depiction of ourselves that is unnatural, not god.

But Cicero had a way of looking at it that I find very agreeable, which is that the absence of the interference of god in our life is the presents of freedom. Cicero had a very libertarian view of god. This is what he had to say in one of his many works, called The Nature of the Gods.

Quote:
“You Stoics are also fond of asking us, Balbus, what is the mode of life of the gods and how they pass their days. The answer is, their life is the happiest conceivable, and the one most bountifully furnished with all good things. God is entirely inactive and free from all ties of occupation; he toils not neither does he labor, but he takes delight in his own wisdom and virtue, and knows with absolute certainty that he will always enjoy pleasures at once consummate and everlasting.
“This is the god whom we should call happy in the proper sense of the term; your Stoic god seems to us to be grievously overworked. If the world itself is god, what can be less restful than to revolve at incredible speed round the axis of the heavens without a single moment of respite? But repose is an essential condition of happiness. If on the other hand some god resides within the world as its governor and pilot, maintaining the courses of the stars, the changes of the seasons, and all the ordered processes of creation, and keeping a watch on land and sea to guard the interests and lives of men, why, what a bondage of irksome and laborious business is his!
“We for our part deem happiness to consist in tranquillity of mind and entire exemption from all duties. For he who taught us all the rest has also taught us that the world was made by nature, without needing an artificer to construct it, and that the act of creation, which according to you cannot be performed without divine skill, is so easy, that nature will create, is creating, and has created worlds without number. You on the contrary cannot see how nature can achieve all this without the aid of some intelligence, and so, like the tragic poets, being unable to the plot of your drama to a dénouement, you have recourse to a god; whose intervention you assuredly would not require if you would but contemplate the measureless and boundless extent of space that stretches in every direction, into which when the mind projects and propels itself, it journeys onward far and wide without ever sighting any margin or ultimate point where it can stop. Well then, in this immensity of length and breadth and height there flits an infinite quantity of atoms innumerable, which though separated by void yet cohere together, and taking hold each of another form unions wherefrom are created those shapes and forms of things which you think cannot be created without the aid of bellows and anvils, and so have saddled us with an eternal master, whom day and night we are to fear; for who would not fear a prying busybody of a god, who foresees and thinks of and notices all things, and deems that everything is his concern?”

--- Cicero, the Nature of the Gods.

Here’s another view, which is also good:

“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’ Some people like it; some people don't.”
--- John Constantine

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 13, 2006 8:05 PM

SERGEANTX

I'm with you Chris. If the Christian God does exist, he's got one screwed up idea of compassion. A Christian friend of mine once asked me, "What would you do if God appeared before you and performed whatever miracles required to convince you he was real?" I replied that I'd punch him. My friend laughed, but I wasn't kidding.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 2:03 AM

AUSSAY

Well ill try and answer it logically, in a theological sense (is that an oxymoron?)

If you look at the concept of common Christian afterlife, then a child would likely most go to heaven as they do not have accountability for sin. Now under the assumption that heaven is a fantastic place, in a sense a child that dies without having to suffer a long earthly life could be considered blessed.

However, the main argument against your theory would be the meaning of faith in religion. Why does god let good people die? Why does god let hurricanes happen? etc are common questions of the existance of god.

Now religion would argue that true faith lies in absolute belief in something, despite the 'unfairness' of life. If the the concept of god would be common knowledge, then faith no longer exists. Without tribulations, faith is not required etc.

Theres also the simple minded argument that some religious leaders preach that because we do bad things, bad things happen. Even if I were religious I couldnt agree with that crap.

Anyway I hope that makes sense

"Shake your head boy, your eyes are stuck"

www.fireflyfans.net
http://www.browncoatsriseagain.com/

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:06 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Look at a baby or a small child. Can you imagine for one moment letting that small person die or become crippled or painfully injured if you had the absolute power to prevent it? Standing by and letting such events occur without changing them given the ability to easily do so would be evil, right?

The same argument says there are no abortion doctors (except the evil ones).

H

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Imaleafonthewind:
God does not make 'sick' or disabled children. God is not a master puppeteer. Sin causes many of the worlds problems due to mans disobedience to Gods will.

Yes, of course you're right.
It's like when my son is disobedient; I usually let him walk into an open mineshaft while playing unsupervised as a consequence to his sin against me.

Stern father Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:

To that end, I suspect that we are all bound to this creation, forever, and that ultimately we are one with everything. So, in the world according to me, you’re stuck with me guys, better get used to it because I am you.

Liminosity, I see we ARE one, on this thread at least.

The non-eloquent Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’ Some people like it; some people don't.”
--- John Constantine

That was cool, and I also like "The Ten Commandments", but for entertainment purposes only.

That flick where Christopher Walken called us talking monkeys was a kick, too Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:54 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’ Some people like it; some people don't.”
--- John Constantine
That was cool, and I also like "The Ten Commandments", but for entertainment purposes only.

This is going to my new response to all things god.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
"What would you do if God appeared before you and performed whatever miracles required to convince you he was real?" I replied that I'd punch him. My friend laughed, but I wasn't kidding.

Funny you say that. Growing up learning 'bout God in Sunday school and watching bodies get shipped back from Vietnam at an early age put me to challenging both God and Satan (at different times) to fistfights. Now, they're both badasses, so I'm certain my challenges went unanswered not because of that.
Logically, they must not exist, or I'd have gotten a supernatural black eye (More like to be I'd have cleaned Biblical house on them, if they came in human form

).

Contender Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:

Without tribulations, faith is not required etc.

I'd say that's probably the best argument that can be made 'for' God.
But then, Like in the movie Constantine, it's all a game. And I'm not playing, 'cause the DM is a d**k.

Chrisisall's Bogus Journey

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
This is going to my new response to all things god.

<
-- Cicero

Hey, the Cicero quote was good too, just rather philosophical for my purposes on this thread.

Literal Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's like when my son is disobedient; I usually let him walk into an open mineshaft while playing unsupervised as a consequence to his sin against me.

I guess our days of agreement are over, Mr. chrisisall...

But, hey, we're Browncoats, right? So, that's something.

Okay, now onto the disagreeable parts...

The thing people (myself included) seem to have a great deal of difficulty in grasping is that God is holy. We are not.

If God were not holy (like we are not holy) then He could overlook open rebellion against Him (like we occasionally do). But God wouldn't be holy or perfect if He allowed the things He created to go off on their own and do what they wanted to whenever they wanted to.

Death, disease, destruction and all sorts of hurt are a result of sin -- and we deserve far worse. Think about it -- we've willfully disobeyed our Creator. We can't quite grasp the scope of that, because we can create nothing independently. What we can form and fashion, we are able to do using materials already created. We, ourselves, are already created (we did not create ourselves). So, it's hard for us (as created, entirely dependent beings) to imagine ourselves creating a universe out of scratch, then having these tiny, insignificant microbes rebelling against us and attempting to toss us out of their lives.

I don't know if you're familiar with the story in the OT about David's bringing the ark of the covenant back to Jerusalem (after the Philistines had it for many years). Anyhow, they had the ark on a cart (which was a "no no" to begin with, but another story altogether, and for the sake of brevity, I'll skip over). As the cart was making its way up the road (they didn't have nice paved roads like we do to day), the cart tilted, and the ark started to slide out the back. Seeing that the ark was about to slide off the cart into the mud, a man called Uzza (not sure of spelling), reached out instinctively to grab the ark -- just to keep it from falling into the mud.

One would think that this would be an "okay" thing to do, right? I mean, he didn't want the ark to get dirty? It's instinct. You see something valuable falling, and reach to stop it, right?

Well, God struck him dead instantly. David wasn't too happy over it, either. It threw a dampener on David's party. I mean, here he is bring God's ark back to Jerusalem to set it up properly in the tabernacle as it should be, and God strikes this guy dead for just trying to stop it from falling into the mud and getting all dirty.

To David, you and I (and no doubt every single human being), this seems like a harsh thing -- unless, we factor in God's holiness. As R.C. Sproul has pointed out, God would rather have had His ark fall into the mud than for man to touch it? Why? Because man is sinful -- the mud isn't. Man has rebelled against God (the mud hasn't).

God is holy, and the ark was a sign of His holy presence with the Jews, and sin is not tolerated in the presence of God's holiness -- which is also why the High Priest (and only the High Priest) was allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies only once a year (after he sufficiently cleansed himself, according to God's law), to make atonement for the sin of the people.

Yes, God does not take His holiness lightly. And as we are not God, it seems a bit on the drastic side (understatement of all time). Fortunately for us, however, God is also merciful. And as I've explained multitudinously elsewhere, while He is holy (and cannot overlook willful rebellion), He is also gracious, and has made an atonement for any who would receive it. Naturally, we're all too busy being rebellious to notice that it's there (the offer of grace), or would rather not think about our rebellion (and therefore, the need for atonement), but it's there nonetheless.

We need to stop holding God accountable for our actions, and admit that we don't deserve anything good, instead of complaining about the bad that happens to us (which we deserve far more of, far more often).

None of us are good. Compared to each other, sure, some of us may seem better than others. But God doesn't compare us to each other -- He compares us to Himself. And next to Him, we're not even in the same universe, much less same galaxy, same solar system, same planet, same continent, same city, same book, same page, etc. (you get the picture).

Bad things do not happen to good people. It's a fallacy to think we're good. If we see ourselves as God sees us, then maybe we'll stop complaining about how short-changed we've been, and be thankful that we haven't received what we've actually deserved (which is far worse than anything we can imagine).

BTW, I'm an ungrateful wretch, myself, and instead of being thankful for the blessings I do have (and don't deserve -- not one of them), I incessantly seem to be complaining about the blessings I don't have, or the problems I do have and don't want. Is it any wonder (in light of the above-mentioned, sinful attitude) that the Lord's not utilizing me in a more productive manner for His glory? Duh.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Liminosity, I see we ARE one, on this thread at least.

Hey Chris, I found this for a friend the other day. I think you'll like it too...

Where are eye, ear and skin? Are they not where the thing itself is because they interact with it? Do they not occupy the same world as the table that is seen and touched? This cannot be denied. But if that is so then they are a part of the external world themselves. Therefore, to argue that we know a thing is outside because our senses tell us so, is to argue that it must be outside because our senses themselves are outside. But this brings us back to the starting point. For if everything is outside then the term “external” loses all meaning. There is no “outside” at all. We may only say that the world is there and that the senses are there but we may not say that they are external to the mind.
~ Paul Brunton The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Cicero The Nature of the Gods.
For he who taught us all the rest has also taught us that the world was made by nature, without needing an artificer to construct it, and that the act of creation, which according to you cannot be performed without divine skill, is so easy, that nature will create, is creating, and has created worlds without number....

Very nice Finn, thanks for the Cicero

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:46 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm with you Chris. If the Christian God does exist, he's got one screwed up idea of compassion. A Christian friend of mine once asked me, "What would you do if God appeared before you and performed whatever miracles required to convince you he was real?" I replied that I'd punch him. My friend laughed, but I wasn't kidding.

SergeantX

Have you ever read / heard of a comic series called Preacher? It concerns (amongst other things), a dissolusioned preacher (who obtains supernatural power) traveling the world, searching for God, whom has abandoned his duties in heaven, and left mankind to their own devices. When he does eventually face God, he punches him right in the face, and tells him to get back to work.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:08 AM

OMEGADARK

First off, if you are ready to burn in hell, you will...

Quote:
Look at a baby or a small child. Can you imagine for one moment letting that small person die or become crippled or painfully injured if you had the absolute power to prevent it? Standing by and letting such events occur without changing them given the ability to easily do so would be evil, right?

Will you be open to understanding? Or will this be in vain?

You see, God and Man do not operate on the same plane or boundaries. Nothing God can do is evil, for evil are deeds, thoughts, desires, etc etc etc that are meant to harm/abuse/destroy for the sake of one owns gain or for the sake of malice itself...

God gave us an amazing ability, to be totally free ,even if he were to come down to you and say I am God, the free will he gave you will be able to believe or not believe no matter what he does, he will not interfere with this gift.

When evil happens or suffering occurs you must know that it is not meant as something in and of itself it is meant as away to grow, understand, and come to terms with life...all the evil we know, is not became of God, it is IN SPITE of God. Due to our free will we are able to do as we wish... on top of that, Nature has it's own rules for we are (animal and divine) in one structure. So when nature manufactures diseases or the like to keep itself in balance why would we not be affected? Why if mutations occur that cause awful things to happen in life would we not be affected?

TO believe that God is going to just fix everything here so that things are perfect is to seriously misunderstand this very life...

Why do you only take the awful things and blame God for his malice? Why do you not say that I can believe in something as beautiful as God when I look at a sunset, or a bug waking around, or the smile on a baby's face, marriage, having children, having sex...

why must people always give sad or tragic examples as reasons not to believe?

Since, God gave us free will he wishes us to use it for the best purpose, he wishes us to be like him (able to create, sustain, destroy, and punish)

We can create life out of our own material (like he did) we can sustain it from out own bodies (like he does hence nature) and yet since we are NOT GOD we have a limit and that limit leads to ignorance and ultimately it is ignorance that leads to such harm, evil, mailice, suffering but...

Why do people suffer? A question that was on our mind since the first instance of suffering...and one ultimately that is not satisfactorily answer...but if you believe that GOd does not suffer with us, then I don't know if you understand God.

Taken from the Christian View: since i am sure that's what your getting at:

God came down and humbled himself to become ONE OF US, to surround His human body with the same filth and sin, sorrow and suffering, and YET the same happiness and joy, health and prosperity as all of us...

But, he came not to enjoy our life or necessarily fix our earthly lives he came to save our true and eternal lives, but in the process he knew that it would have to be reconciled with His own blood, because HE DID CREATE US and as such sin came from us, He took it upon Himself to fix it...

God suffered humiliation (emotionally, psychologically, and physically), suffered pain, suffered loss, suffered death....so that we could have a chance in this life to make some difference and have our good efforts in this life not be tainted by sin but enabled us to have sin wiped away...

But you think that our suffering is not Gods? Yes, I agree most of the time it does not feel so, for when one is suffering you just wish God will come down and fix it...and in my experience it has not been that way...but for me I have overcome mine...and one day I realize things are different, and realize that I learned much from my torment (does it seem like there could be another way to learn and to grow, YES! I WISH! but it isn't this way here)

Why would you cut off such a valuable resource and companion in this life because you are not able to see what God does and does not do for you...

Ultimately it takes just a bit of belief (you know the mustard seed). All God asks is for that itty bitty bit of belief and you will be amazed and what you can accomplish and what you can experience...

I am living proof to my self of one who had it well then to have it ripped apart and then brought back to peace....and I know, if God was not real, there would have been no way in Hell that I would have escaped intact...

So, can I logically give you proofs against what you say? Nope, but I hope what I said helped...

and I hope that you keep your mind open so when that special experience happens your mind will be there to grab it...and you will not regret it

- OD

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:09 PM

Ok, you guys, this is the part I never quite get. God is everything, and yet evil is not of God....

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:
Nothing God can do is evil, for evil are deeds, thoughts, desires, etc etc etc that are meant to harm/abuse/destroy for the sake of one owns gain or for the sake of malice itself...

God gave us an amazing ability, to be totally free ,even if he were to come down to you and say I am God, the free will he gave you will be able to believe or not believe no matter what he does, he will not interfere with this gift.

and when God does something 'evil' right out in the open with everybody watching, we get the sleight of hand
'we deserved it'

Quote:
originally posted by 'Toon: Yes, God does not take His holiness lightly.

and doggone it, 'Toon, I've been silently agreeing with you quite a lot recently, but we all come upon these giant brick walls, don't we? Anyway, I'll continue to agree with you on other things, and an infinite universe should have some wiggle room for different ideas, yes?

I don't know, I would think that if God is everything, then God gets to be good and evil, which kind of cancels out in my book to 'neutral', or if I were an electrician, I might say God is 'ground'.
But I think I'll go get some popcorn to share and watch Constantine with Chris and Finn.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:31 PM

IMALEAFONTHEWIND

God does not 'punish' us for our sins by causing disabled children. Sin is so powerful that it has a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual effect on us.
We are all sinners - even the chiristians who say they aren. The reason this world is the way it is - is due to the filth of sin, and the biggest one of them all is pride. Pride tells us there is not God or need for a God or a Saviour. Pride tells us that when we look at war, there can't be a loving God. That when we look at a handicapped child, why would God allow it. Pride says we can do it on our own, that we are the deciders of our fate. Pride forces us to be arrogant thinking that we are the all.

Its sin that does this, not God. But what I have in my relationship with Jesus is far greater than what the world can offer. I have freedom from my sin, and healing from my hurts, and understandings about the way this world works that I would never have had before.

I walk with Jesus, he came into this world and guess what? It was exactly the same then as it is now. Exactly that same.

Believe and be set free

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
and doggone it, 'Toon, I've been silently agreeing with you quite a lot recently,

You sure you want to admit that here?

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
but we all come upon these giant brick walls, don't we? Anyway, I'll continue to agree with you on other things, and an infinite universe should have some wiggle room for different ideas, yes?

Okay. I'm curious, though. You haven't explained exactly which part is your giant, brick wall. If it's the God can do "evil" thing, He can't. The Bible is clear on that.

I think the problem with it is our perspective. As I tried (feebly, I admit) to illustrate previously, it's hard from our limited human, created, imperfect, fallen, sinful perspective to understand. God allowing us to reap what we've sown is not "evil".

R.C. Sproul told a story about his grading one of the university classes he teaches. His class was instructed to have their papers in by such and such a date (let's say Tuesday). If the student's didn't have the completed papers in by Tuesday, they'd fail the course.

When Tuesday came around, Professor Sproul called the roll, at which time the students were expected to turn in their completed papers. A few of the students sheepishly admited that they hadn't completed their papers, and begged for an extension.

Deciding to give the class some wiggle room, Sproul allowed them a few more days (let's say until Friday).

Friday came around. Sproul calls the roll. Several students blurt out (no longer sheepishly, but very matter-of-factly) that they haven't completed their papers. Sproul begins reading the names of the students who haven't completed their papers: "Smith, no paper - F. Summers, no paper - F. Thomas, no paper - F."

At which time, one of the students yells out, "That's not fair!"

Sproul retorts, "You want fair? I'll give you fair. Everyone who didn't have their paper completed on Tuesday - F."

Was Sproul being evil? When some of the students didn't have their papers on Tuesday (the original date they were required), he was gracious and allowed an extension. When Friday comes around, feeling that Sproul was a lenient pushover, the students decided to take advantage of him, and presumed upon his grace.

When they demanded he treat them "fairly", he did -- and went back to the original requirement.

Sproul says we never want to ask God to "be fair" with us. If God is fair, we all lose. What we want to ask God for is "grace".

God actually keeping us from the punishment we do deserve is certainly grace. His giving us the punishment we've earned is not "evil" -- it's not even "justice" (for "justice" would not have allowed us the extension He's allowed all of us throughout our dying day, at which time the offer of grace is closed.)

To us, because God has been gracious and allowed us an extension, we all take it for granted that He's going to overlook our sin indefinitely. He is not. God is gracious, but there's a limit to that grace, and we ignore it at our peril.

Getting anything short of the full justice we deserve, should not be construed as God being "evil" to us, but yet another example of His withholding the full wrath of His fury which we've all rightfully earned through our willful disobedience of His will.

I wish I could explain it better, but I'm only a stupid human with limited understanding, and this is the best I can do. I hope it helps.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
God does not make 'sick' or disabled children. God is not a master puppeteer. Sin causes many of the worlds problems due to mans disobedience to Gods will. And besides, why would God go where he was not asked too? No, hes a gentleman

So why would god make an infant suffer horribly and inevitbaly die in order to teach an adult a lesson?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 'Toon: At which time, one of the students yells out, "That's not fair!"

Sproul retorts, "You want fair? I'll give you fair. Everyone who didn't have their paper completed on Tuesday - F."

My kind of fair would have been that the one student who yelled out 'that's not fair' would have been the only one for whom the judgement would revert to original demand (papers by Tuesday). In punishing everyone for the outburst of a single student, your allegorical hand of God is pulling another sleight of hand.

Quote:
Was Sproul being evil?

I'd say, yeah. He reneged on his generous and graceful offer of extension for the other students by punishing everyone for the transgression of the one student who didn't appreciate his 'grace'.

Quote:
Sproul says we never want to ask God to "be fair" with us. If God is fair, we all lose. What we want to ask God for is "grace".

I'm just going to mentally exchange your word God for a word that works better for me... how about universe? and say, we all have things to be sorry for, and if we were punished immediately for every transgression against balance or taking another's choice, every - I think you would say 'sin', yeah, we'd be doomed at somewhere around the instant of birth. What I want to do is to try to act with compassion (and find a way to act with more of it every day) - as you say 'ask God for "grace." In my way of looking at this, the moment I make the decision to act with compassion, I start to move things forward for myself. The more I can act with compassion, the more compassion I receive from others. And... since I believe that all is one, the more compassion I find, the more I move things forward for everyone else too. 'Toon.

Quote:
God actually keeping us from the punishment we do deserve is certainly grace. His giving us the punishment we've earned is not "evil" -- it's not even "justice" (for "justice" would not have allowed us the extension He's allowed all of us throughout our dying day, at which time the offer of grace is closed.)

Ok, exchanging God for the word universe again here, because I don't believe there's a personality behind all of this... and since I like the idea that nothing is ever wasted (energy-matter-energy), I think I have until forever to balance the scales. The more obstinate I am about refusing to use compassion 100% of the time, the harder it gets for me (the harder I make it on myself next time around) to bring things into balance. Anytime I choose revenge, rejection, or doing a runner on my obligation to balance the scales, rather than acting with compassion, I make it harder on myself - this time, next time, all the time.
I hope that made sense.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Standing by and letting such events occur without changing them given the ability to easily do so would be evil, right?

You haven't really skiived off to watch biblical epics on DVD with Finn, have you?
There's a book I've been wondering if you've read, because it has some entertaining, interesting and thought provoking things to say about reincarnation and a bunch of Chinese soldiers from long long ago.... The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson

Oh! I haven't had a chance to use my new favorite line from SG1, so I'll unload it on you, because I haven't actually seen you in weeks and it's always more fun than anything to mess with Chris.

Seek not wickedness amongst your neighbors lest it find purchase in your own house ~Daniel Jackson
And Chris, get your ass back on the line hee heee

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:55 PM

DREAMTROVE

My basic starting point is this:

Be suspect of anything that people believe which they have reason to desperately want to be true, and have arrived at before accumulating an abundance of evidence before personally deciding to back, and most importantly, that which does not *have* to be true.

Anything which fails all three tests is almost certainly false, and falls under the heading of self-delusion. Take another completely different example: Crossing Over with John Edward.

I'm sure you're all familiar with the show. Just in case you're not, this is a show about a guy who can talk to dead relatives of the shows guests.

1. People desperately want to talk to the dead, and they have things they want to hear: That the dead are in a good place, and that they regret nothing, and often that they don't blame them, the guests, for anything.

2. People who go onto the show, believers, typically do so without doing any research into Edward's methods, similar practicioners, or the idea of seances, and they don't seriously look into any skeptical counter-arguments. I can think of a couple exceptions, but they don't fall under the heading of "believers."

3. There is nothing that forces the assumed fact "John Edwards can talk to dead people." Many other possible conclusions can be drawn other that "the whole thing is staged" such as "John Edward does a lot of research on his guests before they come on" or "John Edward is extremely perceptive of people" or even "John Edwards can read the minds of the living." But nothing that you see forces the conclution "John Edwards talks to dead people."

I remember seeing an interview with someone else on SciFi who said "Nah, he's a fraud. If he could really talk to the dead, sometimes they would say 'you know, it sucks here' or 'God I wish you hadn't left me in the basement.' He always conveniently reports what the guests want to here."

All of which is a totally separate discussion from whether or not talking to dead people is posisble. But the above circumstantial evidence leads me to the conclusion "John Edwards does not talk to dead people."

Similarly, by the same method, I can arrive at "God, literal from the Christian Bible, does not exist."

Anyone could say "Yes, but are you sure?"

Who cares? I'm never sure of anything. If something's 75% that's good enough for me until more evidence presents itself. At the moment I have a good 90%+ feeling that John Edward does not talk to dead people to waste no more time on it, at least until more evidence presents itself. It's hard to credit the Christian God with much more than that.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 2:04 AM

AUSSAY

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Death, disease, destruction and all sorts of hurt are a result of sin -- and we deserve far worse. Think about it -- we've willfully disobeyed our Creator. We can't quite grasp the scope of that, because we can create nothing independently. What we can form and fashion, we are able to do using materials already created. We, ourselves, are already created (we did not create ourselves). So, it's hard for us (as created, entirely dependent beings) to imagine ourselves creating a universe out of scratch, then having these tiny, insignificant microbes rebelling against us and attempting to toss us out of their lives.

Problems I find with this view -

Firstly, if the Holy Trinity is in existance, Christ died for our sins. If Christ died for the sins of the world, then why are we being punishied via catastrophes and death? If we are being punished for our sins like that then Christs death was pointless

Secondly, say god is punishing sin by hurt and pain to the world. People doing sins are not neccessarily getting punished and other who may not have sinned are getting punished. That is imperfect justice and if god is perfect how can he deliver imperfect justice?

Anyway just my opinion

"Shake your head boy, your eyes are stuck"

www.fireflyfans.net
http://www.browncoatsriseagain.com/

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:52 AM

JONUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I had an interesting discussion with a Muslim co-work about a similar topic. It's interesting because for the first few hundred years Muslim clerics collected Jewish and early Christian documents including stuff that never made it into Christain Canon. Consequently they have an interesting take on this question.

They believe that God set the world in motion but doesn't macromanage it. If he interviened too much then he negates free will, so the natural world runs itself with only occasional tweaks if things start going terribly wrong.

So if your child dies, that's just an effect of nature or of men's free choice not really God's doing at all. As a consequence they don't blame God for bad stuff happening or think he's asleep on the job if he doesn't stop it. Nature is nature and God is God.

Well put, friend. Well put.

If people got help from God all the time we'd be spoiled. I do think it's cruel and unfair when something happens to a kid such as deformations and death. But the same things happens to every other life-form on Earth. Animals are born deformed or die horrible deaths. Don't tell me there's a difference between animals and humans dying cruel deaths. Nature, evil, and free will reigns. God will step in if things get too f'ed up. If you need God helping you all the time you're a pussy.

Edit: Also, our sins are forgiven so we know we aren't being punished. It's the bitch called Nature.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson

I was only being the instrument of the most high. - Herbal on Dark Angel

Lim, you remember my reincarnation story, I'm touched. Now I HAVE to check out this book.

I guess it was dumb of me to start a thread like this and ask for 'logical' discussion, 'eh?

I give myself fourty lashes Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:
First off, if you are ready to burn in hell, you will...
Will you be open to understanding? Or will this be in vain?

I'm gonna have to go with 'vain'.

Let's see, if I were God, all lonely in my own existence, and wanting someone to play with...
Maybe I'll make a friend.
No, I can't make my own equal to play with, that would make me all-powerful times two, then I would not be all-powerful...so... I'll make me a world of lesser beings, all stupid and such, and I'll make a Devil to plague them with bad feelings and dis-information...and I'll demand they come to the truth that I'm here...'cept I'll hide, heh heh.
But I'll love them. Yessireee. Even when I flood them, I'll love them.
Tough-love.
Pillar-of-salt love.

*In his best imitation of Cyrus* That's crap, brothers!

Don't mean to dump on anyone's beliefs...*

*
Well, a little, I guess.
Anyone truly believes in God, then I am just a worm, and ain't getting them upset in the least.
On the other hand, any I'm makin' angry with this better find a new religion. Just an opinion.

Anyone want to dump on Buddhism? It won't bug me if ya do...

Chrisisall, giving orders to the beloved ants in his ant farm (Ooops! Now they made me angry! Where's that glass of water??)

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:

God will step in if things get too f'ed up.

Please provide some examples with links to support them, if you would please.

He's bad, he's bad, he's really really bad Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So why would god make an infant suffer horribly and inevitbaly die in order to teach an adult a lesson?

You got it wrong, Rue, God doesn't make an infant suffer, He lets an infant suffer with the ability to easily change the situation.
There's a WORLD of difference there (the fact that I can't actually SEE the difference doesn't automatically mean there isn't one...um...right?).

You get the lesson now?

Chrisisall, the laughing Buddha

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:29 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Okay, just gotta pop in and make a few points here, Chrisisall, even though I'm not Christian or anything.

1. It seems from your first post that you're making the case that a child's life is more valuable than any other life on the planet. Which is pretty shaky ground to start an argument on, logically and morally. That's just my opinion, of course.

2. God's big thing, from my understanding, is that he wants us to believe without knowing. So if he was to intervene and keep all babies from suffering, dying, or being deformed until they reach the age of 18 (or whatever age when their life becomes less valuable), then people are going to start to notice. They're going to go, hey, there is a God, and we know because of all this stuff. Therefore, they will know that there is a God, rather than believing in God, which defeats God's own purpose, right? So He's probably not going to go ahead and do that.

3. A lot of the death and suffering that happens to babies occurs as a result of what people do. You know, drunk drivers killing children in vehicles, parents beating their kids, etc. Is any of this God's doing? No, it's ours, our choice. And if He intervened, He'd be taking away our free will. Which is one of those big gifts that He granted us. So, if He were to take away our free will, He'd be defeating His own purpose again, which seems kind of dumb, doesn't it?

4. To the person who said that God might be punishing people who hadn't sinned, there's no such thing as a person who hasn't sinned. Just those who might have sinned less than others.

There. Those are my logical points to make. Finally, CIA, haven't you seen Futurama? God has to use a light touch, like a pickpocket, safecracker, or a guy who burns down his bar for the insurance money (if he makes it look like an electrical thing).

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

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to find out how to buy mine!

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:
If Christ died for the sins of the world, then why are we being punishied via catastrophes and death? If we are being punished for our sins like that then Christs death was pointless

When mankind rebelled in the garden, God cursed #1) the devil (whose downfall at the hand of the Messiah was also prophesied there)(Gen. 3:14-15), #2) mankind and the earth (including everything on it)(Genesis 3:16-19).

Jesus's work on the cross did several things. For one thing, it was the deathblow to the devil's plans to take all of mankind into hell with him -- in that Jesus lifted the curse of eternal separation from God from those who freely receive His grace.

The curse on the earth hasn't been lifted by Christ's work on the cross, nor have the earthly consequences of mankind's sins (even those who are redeemed). (eg. If you destroy your liver through a lifetime of drunkeness, then receive the Lord's salvation -- the Lord will have indeed saved your soul, but you're still going to have that diseased liver. There are consequences to living in a fallen, sinful world which will not be escaped in this lifetime.)

When the Lord returns, He will lift the curse from the world, but until then, sin (and the curse for sin) still has reign over creation.

Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:
Secondly, say god is punishing sin by hurt and pain to the world. People doing sins are not neccessarily getting punished and other who may not have sinned are getting punished. That is imperfect justice and if god is perfect how can he deliver imperfect justice?

That's just it -- it's not justice (imperfect or otherwise) -- or (as I said above) we'd all be in the toilet. Our tendancy is to look at it from a human perspective, where we compare ourselves to each other. As I said above, God isn't doing that -- He's comparing us to Him. And even one sin puts us under the curse. Therefore, if we sin once or a billion times, we are under God's curse, and therefore, have no right to complain about why the neighbors seem to be getting off easier than we are. In God's eyes, we both deserve the penalty of sin, and the fact that God may let Joe Smith off with a few decades more of the good life than us isn't going to matter a speck in the whole of eternity. A lifetime of 80 years (when compared to eternity) wouldn't even be comparable to the tiniest subatomic particle to the vastness of the entire universe.

The Lord doesn't balance His books every Friday at five. But they will be balanced. It's not for us to look at others and wonder why they have it better or worse than us. We are accountable for what we do -- not the neighbors.

P.S. (This next bit isn't referring to you at all, aussay, but I feel that this might be a good place for me to mention it for the sake of certain others in this forum. I hope you don't mind.)

As I've mentioned somewhere in one of these threads -- as a believer I am commanded (when asked) to present the gospel of the Lord as best I can. I am also commanded to move on when that gospel is blatantly rejected.

As such, for those who may've missed that point, I will not respond to (or even read) the posts of anyone who blasphemes the Lord or blatantly rejects the presentation of His gospel. People with honest questions, misunderstandings, etc. are fine, but I am under no obligation to beat against the wind with an unbeliever who has no desire to seek the Lord, and merely wants to be confrontational, blasphemous and crude.

I have never resorted to calling anyone in these forums by any derogatory terms (well, except for myself, where I clearly acknowledge many of my multitudinous faults), nor have I even resorted to labeling their comments as "stupid" or "foolish" (even though, as far as I can ascertain in my admittedly limited grasp of human understanding, many of them haven't even the least semblance of rational thought even remotely associated with them).

I've learned a long time ago that the only people who have a right to belittle someone, or their opinions would be the people who know everything about everything. And while, apparently, a few of those folks visit these forums, I am not one of them, and therefore, would never resort to utilizing such comments.

People can disagree with another person's view without being rude. Granted, some of these people can possibly be children (I certainly don't know the ages of anyone in here -- with a few possible exceptions where someone may've stated their age at some point in some thread I may've read), but I am still under no obligation to respond to such people.

It has always been my policy to ignore such people, and I see no reason to change that policy here and now.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:51 AM

JONUS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:

God will step in if things get too f'ed up.
Please provide some examples with links to support them, if you would please.

He's bad, he's bad, he's really really bad Chrisisall

Looks like we have an attention whore in our midst.

Well there's a couple examples in the Bible: Sodom and Gamora (sp?) where people were having orgies or something and God opened a can of whoopass and The Flood. The world became too evil so He stepped in and flooded it. Noah made God promise He wouldn't do some shit like that again. And then there's Revelations where at the end of the world when things are at their worst Jesus will come back and save the believers, make the nonbelievers believe and make the sinners repent. There's a site I like that makes sense of all the things that are confusing in the Bible

http://bible-truths.com/

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
4. To the person who said that God might be punishing people who hadn't sinned, there's no such thing as a person who hasn't sinned. Just those who might have sinned less than others.

Queen, you've said it far better (and in much fewer words) than I could've.

Didn't I warn you about avoiding this place, though? Nevermind. As long as you're here, "hi".

Don't stand too close, though, unless you have an uncanny ability to dodge quickly-moving projectiles.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:39 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Didn't I warn you about avoiding this place, though? Nevermind. As long as you're here, "hi".

Don't stand too close, though, unless you have an uncanny ability to dodge quickly-moving projectiles.

Well, you know me. I couldn't resist the makings of a good argument. And few things are more fascinating than a philosophical argument about God.

As for the projectiles, well, I'd say I'm a fair hand at dodging.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
In punishing everyone for the outburst of a single student, your allegorical hand of God is pulling another sleight of hand.

Just noticed this, and I missed responding to it, previously. I'm fairly sure that Sproul wasn't making an allegory in which he (Sproul) was acting like God. I believe the point he was trying to make is that we often take grace for granted and demand it, when we don't deserve grace in the first place (that's the whole nature of grace -- it's wholly unmerited and unearned).

Sproul was saying that we also have a tendency to complain that God is treating us unfairly, and the last thing we want from God is "fair" -- as God said that the punishment for sin (one or a billion sins of any nature) is eternal separation from Him in a particularly unpleasant place. Our receiving anything short of that punishment is "grace", and certainly cannot be construed as unfair.

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Quote:
Was Sproul being evil?
I'd say, yeah. He reneged on his generous and graceful offer of extension for the other students by punishing everyone for the transgression of the one student who didn't appreciate his 'grace'.

Well, I disagree here. And it wasn't just one student. All of the students who didn't have their papers on time were now "expecting" leniency yet again. (Perhaps I didn't relate that in my retelling of his story.) At any rate, all the students who initially had their papers done by Tuesday wouldn't have had to worry, as they had completed the task as instructed. The only ones punished were the ones who had not, then presumed upon the grace. Did a few of the students who didn't have their papers on Tuesday, but did have them for Friday, suffer as a result? I don't know. Sproul never said if that was applicable in this instance.

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I think I have until forever to balance the scales.

According to the scriptures, we can't ever balance the scales. That's the thing. God says one sin forever puts us in His debt. Even if it were possible for us to be "perfect" (which it isn't) from now until eternity, and even if we had only sinned once (which none of us has), we are still objects of His wrath apart from receiving His grace. There are no scales.

Oops. Have to get back to work, or a bunch of students will have no way home.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 10:19 AM

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123726

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
God does not make 'sick' or disabled children.

Wow. You have GOT to get a clue!

Visit this website, roam around, read the stories, then come back and tell me about it:

Quote:
I feel so sick to my stomach right now, I am SO afraid I'm going to lose her very soon! I KEEP Praying for God to help her, WHY won't he help her??! Okay, maybe he's helping her by keeping her with me still, but I have been Praying for 8 months for him to help her brain and make it grow, then he ALLOWS 5 months to go by with NO gorwth, that makes me sick! WHy won't he help her, just a little bit? Why wo't he wake her up??! If she has to be SOOO freakin severe, and have a short life, why is he making her SUFFER with these things the docs are calling autonomic storms.. where she is arching, breathing hard, sweating buckets, fever and heartrate-through the roof... WHY?! This is my precious baby girl, she is the most beautiful amazing, sweet baby love I have ever seen, I can't even think about her not staying with me.. WHY do I have to think about her not staying with me?!!

Quote:
God is not a master puppeteer. Sin causes many of the worlds problems due to mans disobedience to Gods will.

So... the child who has a random genetic mutation is born that way because of someone else's sin? That doesn't make sense. And please, none of that "We can't possibly fanthom blah blah blah..."

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Cartoon- I "get" that stacked up against God's holiness we are less than microbes with a bad attitude and that we DESERVE eternal damnation. That everything bad that ever happens on this Earth- from deformed babies to animals preying on each other instead of living peaceably- is due to original sin. And yet I can't help thinking that this massive temper that God seems to have about our disobedience is, in itself, a rather hubristic (? Is there such a word?) view of our place in God's grand scheme of things.

You invited the comparison when you posed the question: How would YOU feel if these "less than nothings" rebelled and quite frankly, if I were God and I had invested these less than nothing with free will I prolly wouldn't care. It might be interesting to watch, but certainly nothing to be either disappointed, afraid, or angry about. Those kinds of emotions only come about in HUMANS- or, in very anthropormorphised gods.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You invited the comparison when you posed the question: How would YOU feel if these "less than nothings" rebelled and quite frankly, if I were God and I had invested these less than nothing with free will I prolly wouldn't care.

I know.

I didn't want to phrase it that way, but how else does one draw a comparison as to how far above us God is? Actually, He's even further above us than that. Actually, we can't even fathom a comparison as He is all-knowing, all-powerful, ever-was/ever-will-be, ever present, etc.

And the microbe (or whatever I said) comparison also doesn't work in that God loves us. We don't love microbes. Even in the face of our unimaginable rebellion, He loves us. He could've just wiped the slate clean and started over, and none of the angels (or whoever else was around in the heavenly realms) would've blinked an eye (*see below).

He obviously cares for us beyond anything we can comprehend. Because of His holiness, He couldn't overlook what we did, but because of His love, He made a way out -- and not a "cheap" way out. The way out cost Him more than any of us can imagine.

It was a bad comparison on my part, and I apologize. I just couldn't think of anything else to show the scope of the difference.

If it left you with a wrongful impression, please forgive me. I knew it wasn't quite right when I posted it.

*SIDE NOTE: Speaking of Angels, according to the scripture, even they are somewhat confused by the fact that God cares so much about us, His sinful, rebellious creation.

Okay, well, perhaps "confusion" isn't the correct word, but they don't seem to understand it fully, and are (at the very least) curious about it. I Peter 1:12 speaks of Angels desiring to look into these "things" -- referring (in verses 10-12) to the saving work of Christ -- which had beforehand been spoken of by the prophets, then the preaching of the gospel, etc.

Being in the presence of a perfect, holy, all-powerful, all-knowing God all the time as they are, I'm sure they can't imagine why He would want to save any of us. Personally, I can't imagine it, either, and I don't think I will ever understand it.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:26 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

My case goes along the lines of:

God creates man in his own image, but sinful, lacking in understanding and without half of his abilities. To me that seems the equivalent of manking going out and intentionally creating a race of cripples. I can't believe in a guy who creates an entire universe just to be better than everyone else.

-------------------------------------------------

Read my fanfic!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=8267

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:27 PM

HKCAVALIER

Heya Chris,

Thanks for the topic (finally, something pulls me out of Lurksville, back to chatting with my Firefly Friends).

First of all: what a mess! I'm not sure but from reading some of the responses you've gotten here, it seems that in order to be a devout christian a person needs to harbor a profound self-hatred, a deeply ingrained sense of personal shame. Low self-esteem can really ruin a logical discussion because low self-esteem and depression can make some of the most distorted nonsense seem like the plain facts. God loves us, but we are nothing without Him. So God loves nothing, or he loves only Himself--what kinda love is that? How does one love nothing, exactly? Sounds like your "pillar-of-salt" kind of love.

Another major impediment to clarity in this thread is the obsession with pain. As a student of martial arts, you gotta know that pain is a perfectly natural and very necessary part of life. Without pain there can be no healing and no growth. So the fact that innocent children and blameless animals experience all kinds of pain is really not a moral issue at all. Welcome to life in three dimensions.

Jumping Jimminy, grow up people! Contrary to popular belief, it's not loving to take pain away, I'm not at all sure it's even possible (the closest thing we got to genuinely taking pain away is the empathic trick of taking another's pain into one's self, but half the people reading this don't even believe that kind of empathy exists).

We can mask pain, that's for sure. Deny pain, tell our children not to cry. And I believe the individual can, with patience, transform it into meaning. Loved ones can hold it, help us to bear it by taking on some of the pain themselves, but take it away? Presto change-o, no fuss/no muss?

Naw. Bear it is what we gotta do with pain, Chris. Get to know it. Learn what we can. But people can be very childish. Our parents can spend their whole lives trying--and failing--to take our pain away, and we can hate them for their failure. We can go through life looking for something to "take the pain away," but that only leads us into addiction. People even take this addictive impulse and apply it to the divine, demanding that God take their pain away--and the religion addicts actually think they succeed!

Yeah, what a mess.

I got a story for you that a friend of mine told me. He was not a religious man (he was culturally Jewish). He was a stand-up comedian I was working on a movie with at the time. He told me the story about the one time in his life that he saw an angel.

He was visiting his niece in the hospital. She was a newborn. She was born without the bottom half of her face. He told me of how he held that baby for hours, looking into her beautiful, beautiful eyes over her half-made face with tubes running into her body and he wept and asked God, "Why God? Why bring this beautiful little girl into the world like this?"

And he told me an angel appeared in the room and said to him, in the kindest most beautiful voice he'd ever heard, "You have not been called here to understand, you have been called here to feel."

You're quite right, Chris, if God's plan could be described in the crude language people fling about--speaking confidently (even a little pridefully) about sinfulness and disobeying God and justice and punishment, etc.--don't you think God's plan could have been completed by now? If God's plan were reducible to this tired, infinitely reframed debate, couldn't the will of God be accomplished in a few weeks, like some high-powered management seminar?

Obviously, God's got big plans, bigger fish to fry than spanking our insignificantly naughty butts.

So there's a project, a plan to create something that heretofore has never existed. In order to create this "something" God created three dimensions, matter and linear time.

I've had three dimensions explained to me as a laboratory. Matter and linear time and, therefore, free will are all conditions of the experiment. You get rid of any of them and you fudge the data.

Anyway, Chris (and Signy and Rue and you other diehards, thanks for being here).

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:49 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So He loves us but He's mad at us. Sounds quite human!

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:59 PM

Hi. I actually liked your bit about "pain".

Uh, I know that sounds kind of weird. And, no, I'm not a masochist or anything

(although, I can understand how some people might think that I am -- actually coming into a sci-fi chat room to discuss the Bible and things)...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
First of all: what a mess! I'm not sure but from reading some of the responses you've gotten here, it seems that in order to be a devout christian a person needs to harbor a profound self-hatred, a deeply ingrained sense of personal shame. Low self-esteem can really ruin a logical discussion because low self-esteem and depression can make some of the most distorted nonsense seem like the plain facts.

Actually, if you were referring to my previous posts, knowing that God loves us should do just the opposite than cause us to harbor "profound self-hatred", etc. I mean, who wouldn't feel "great" that the eternal, creator God personally loves them?

And we don't have to have low self-esteem or hate ourselves to approach God. We do need to realize that (as He said) we have wronged Him, admit it to Him, and gratefully hold our hand out to accept the free gift. How does that invoke depression?

I feel I've either somehow inadequately represented the Christian view, or you've misinterpreted my efforts at expressing it. Either way, I hope you won't think that those who believe the Bible are a bunch of self-hating party-poopers (well, except maybe for the prophet Jeremiah -- but then we should cut him some slack because he had a really bad time).

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 2:37 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HK- Rue and I were just communicating (off-board) how much we missed your deep intuition, your essential grasp of the meaning of things.

I have often mulled over our daughter and of all the kids I've come to know who were born with various intractable, painful, debilitating, or terminal problems. Not being religious, I'm not "mad at God" as so many parents are. But if there is any meaning to the pain and suffering of children, I think it's not to "punish" us, or to "test our faith" but to make us see what we are about as human beings and as a society.

And what I see are parents of "normal" children resenting resources being "wasted" on children who will "never be productive". I see a society that wants everyone to be a positive mark on the ledger; a society so consumed by fear and uncertainty that it can no longer "afford" compassion.

If this is a test by God, then we are failing miserably. If this is an indication of our intelligence- one that might create and take responsibility for our creations- then we're stupider than a dog's hind leg.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Let's see, if I were God, all lonely in my own existence, and wanting someone to play with...
Maybe I'll make a friend.
No, I can't make my own equal to play with, that would make me all-powerful times two, then I would not be all-powerful...so... I'll make me a world of lesser beings, all stupid and such, and I'll make a Devil to plague them with bad feelings and dis-information...and I'll demand they come to the truth that I'm here...'cept I'll hide, heh heh.
But I'll love them. Yessireee. Even when I flood them, I'll love them.
Tough-love.
Pillar-of-salt love.

bingo!

I attended at Our Lady of Perpetual Bingo.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris: I was only being the instrument of the most high. - Herbal on Dark Angel
Lim, you remember my reincarnation story, I'm touched. Now I HAVE to check out this book.
I guess it was dumb of me to start a thread like this and ask for 'logical' discussion, 'eh?

Herbal is the only one who thinks Herbal is mos' high, everybody else knows he's just the man.

I always remember reincarnation stories, they usually say something about the relative age of the person doing the remembering, imo, and yours had some detail to it, as did Signy's. Costumes give big clues to when and where, specifically, this might have been, especially footwear, which will give clues to social standing etc. Try turning your vision of the Chinese soldier into a movie, you can sometimes learn a lot if you can get the image to move.Years of Rice and Salt I think you will enjoy very much.
Everybody has their logic for why their way is the right way, yeah? Who was it said 'there is no one way, this is my way, what is yours?'

and BTW

Quote:
originally posted by a stand up comic: Pillar-of-Salt Love
Quote:
ROFLMAO, you made my night with that one. Now on to pester 'Toon some more...

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:At any rate, all the students who initially had their papers done by Tuesday wouldn't have had to worry, as they had completed the task as instructed. The only ones punished were the ones who had not, then presumed upon the grace. Did a few of the students who didn't have their papers on Tuesday, but did have them for Friday, suffer as a result? I don't know. Sproul never said if that was applicable in this instance.
'Toon said: ....Friday came around. Sproul calls the roll. Several students blurt out (no longer sheepishly, but very matter-of-factly) that they haven't completed their papers. Sproul begins reading the names of the students who haven't completed their papers: "Smith, no paper - F. Summers, no paper - F. Thomas, no paper - F."

At which time, one of the students yells out, "That's not fair!"

Sproul retorts, "You want fair? I'll give you fair. Everyone who didn't have their paper completed on Tuesday - F."

This is the bit in your original argument I was objecting to - one student blurts out 'that's not fair, and Sproul punishes all students who didn't have their papers in on Tuesday. It seems to me that the students who had their papers in on Friday might well have been very thankful for the grace of Sproul, but when he flunked them for the transgression of the single student who is unappreciative of the extension (says "it's not fair" to be flunked for not having finished the paper in time to make the Friday extended deadline), Sproul has acted cruelly, and I would say evilly. Better for Sproul not to have offered the extension than to have punished those who were grateful for the grace of the extension, and had there papers completed in time for the Friday extension. I hope that's clearer. Unless I missed something, and none of the ungrateful wretches managed to make the Friday extension. In that case, they got what they deserved. I think teachers should stick to their guns on deadlines; giving post deadline extensions to those who can't manage to get the assignment done on time, punishes those who have made the effort to do the thing as expected. But that's just my personal scales.

Someone needing an extension should make arrangements in advance for the extension, or it's disrespectful to the teacher, the other students and ultimately themselves. Allegorically speaking, I see the golden rule as having two sides, I think the other side goes something like 'don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do for you. Compassion includes a keen but kind honesty in your dealings with others.

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I think I have until forever to balance the scales.

Yikes, 'Toon, this sounds to me more like an abusive parent who makes everything the fault of the child than a reasonable deity. Where is it that this God shows the agape for his folk that he expects to see from them? I do think one 'sin' (one act out of balance) does keep me in debt to the universe, but comitting one transgression, which I subsequently make reparations for should not keep me in infinite debt, or what's the point. I may just as well let the beast out if nothing I do can get me out of debt, and I'll burn no matter how good I am. (Don't worry, I won't really let the beast out... permanently.)

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:37 PM