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Originally posted by DontCallMeLawrence:
And this is just something that bothers me...

people say all the illegal immigrant in California are good "because they do jobs americans won't do." This is not true. I have cousins who can't move out here because they cannot find work largely due to the fact that those jobs are held by illegal immigrants.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Well a more accurate quote is that they can't hire an American for the amount they are willing to pay. This isn't just a matter of the immigrant working for lower pay, by using undocumented workers employers can cut taxes, social security, insurance and other overheads from the equation that they couldn't legally do with an American.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I am saddened by how Dubya and his cronies responded to the public demand that something be done about our borders. He claims he wants to protect us from terrorists & is sending American soldiers off to die in foreign lands, yet he leaves our entire southern border completely exposed.

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(unless you are native american of course), but I think they should become legal citizens, pay taxes, contribute to the community and all just as the rest of us do. There should also be a push to learn the english language to communicate w/ others effectively & for their children to interact in school.

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Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
I live in Charlotte N.C., and here are a few issues I have with illegal immigration here.

1- Free healthcare
2- Free school
3- License without proof of citizenship
4- Can not be prosecuted for any crime unless it is "violent"
5- 2 INS agents for both NC and SC.
6- If arrested, they are let go and asked to please go to Atlanta for their INS hearing (no one goes)
7- 5 out of the 10 drunk driving murders this year, so far, have been by illegal immigrants.

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Browncoat1, I need to ask: Do you (or did you) belong to a union?

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Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
In regards to corporations:

GE and Bank of America do not employ any illegal immigrants. The real problem is with small businesses trying to curtail the cost of well...cost. Sorry if this burst any "Leftist" conspiracy about corperations being all corperty.

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Originally posted by manofwar:
My post is about immigration, in general. Here's what I think.

Illegal Immigration:
-------------------
1) The size of the 500,000 person protest in L.A. itself demonstrates the problem. There are so many illegals, and they face so little threat of deportation, that they have political clout. They actually protest infront of Congress. This is frightening. Foreigners should not have political influence on our policies & laws.

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Originally posted by manofwar:
2) Over the years I've noticed from my reading that illegals around the U.S. make $8-10/hr. In fact, this week or last, Business Week mag. had an article on illegals working at a carpet factory in Georgia, where they make $7/hr. The U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty level for a family of 4 to be about $19k/yr., which is just under $10/hr for a 40 hour week. This says, an American who wants to compete for these jobs has to put his family into poverty. For comparison, when I was in high school over 20 years I had a part time job making $7/hr. It is therefore not true there are no Americans who want these jobs - they just can't afford them.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
What I don't understand is why Immigration didn't descend on this event w/ every agent they had, SWAT, the National Guard, and every police officer they could muster. This was their chance to catch all these illegals that the Federal gov't claims are too "slippery" to catch. Guess hiding in plain sight makes them too slippery.

Oh, wait. That's right. The federals don't care.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

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That is the rub.

I can sympathize & appreciate wanting a better life & standard of living for your family, but not at the expense of others. I would never dream of moving into another country illegally and then taking advantage of the system at the taxpayers expense.

Big business being in bed w/ big government only makes matters worse.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

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Originally posted by milagrobean:
this is the first world power military occupations thru the centuries karma blues.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

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Darlin', that is gonna happen regardless. It's in the wacky rich interests that it does. Cheaper labour, more consumers, more potential soldiers...etc.

Chrisisallmovin'toAustrailia(as an illegal)

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Originally posted by Righteous9:

How easy could it be to leave your home and risk death to cross the border? They aren't doing it for kicks, and the ones I know...love America.

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Originally posted by Hero:
Well, this is just speculation...but perhaps they figured that trying to arrest a half-million people all at one time and in the middle of America's largest cities could present a bit more of a problem then anyone could handle and could turn an otherwise mostly peaceful series of protests into full blown riots.

If you get forty illegals in one place, its easy to surround them, arrest them, detain them, process them, and deport them in an efficient manner. If its forty thousand...its a tad more difficult.

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Originally posted by piratejenny:

I agree while I do sympathize I don't do it at my own exspense either and I to would never dream of coming to another country illegally, but on the other hand I don't come from a third world country like Mexico, the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

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Originally posted by SignyM:
A half-million people waving the Mexican flag and chanting "Si se puede" is not going to win over any converts. It tells me that they have mixed loyalities at best.

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
what happens when people don't have a job and can't get work? they have two choices, turn to crime or join the military,

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
but do you think Immigration or the federals did anything at all to track these illegals at the end of the march, question any, photograph them, get plate #s, anything? We all know they didn't.

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Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

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Originally posted by Hero:
Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.


H

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country.

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HERO wrote:

If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.

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"A few weeks ago, one of Chamberlain's officers came upon Jorge Mora Ramirez, who was making a phone call from his car. Questioned by the officer, Ramirez, a 21-year-old who is Mexican, admitted he was in the country illegally, Chamberlain said. The chief called Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, but they declined to send someone over to pick up Ramirez. Chamberlain applied the only state statute he could think of. 'My position was: If Mr. Ramirez was in the country illegally, he was obviously in the town of New Ipswich illegally,' Chamberlain said. Police officers around the country have told Chamberlain that they plan to follow his example. Last week, Richard E. Gendron, the police chief in Hudson, N.H., cited two undocumented men for trespassing and said he intends to keep doing it."
-"How to arrest an illegal alien - N.H. Police Chief's Tactics Stira Storm on Immigration"
http://danielisright.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_danielisright_archive.htm
l

Attorney General Opinion 2000-1:
"There is substantial support for the position that the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law, although explicitly referring only to state and local crimes, do not exclude federal crimes from the scope of authority granted to police officers and others to make warrantless arrests. New York State law enforcement officials may make arrests without warrants for criminal violations of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act. However, mere status as an alien, or even as an illegal alien, may only be a civil violation of the Act and thus would not be a sufficient basis for an arrest. For a valid arrest, the officer must have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a criminal violation of the INA, such as illegal entry into the United States, and not merely a civil violation, such as illegal presence in the country."
-Robert J. Cimino, County Attorney, County of Suffolk, Hauppauge, NY, March 21, 2000
www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opinions/2000/informal/2000_1.html

Tennessee Code §40-7-109. Arrest by private person - Grounds.
(a) A private person may arrest another:
(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;
(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or
(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed it.
www.megalaw.com/tn/tncode.php

citizen's arrest.
: an arrest made not by a law officer but by any citizen who derives the authority to arrest from the fact of being a citizen
Note: Under common law, a citizen may make an arrest for any felony actually committed, or for a breach of the peace committed in his or her presence.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com

civil arrest.
: the arrest and detention of a defendant in a civil suit until he or she posts bail or pays the judgment
(see also capias ad respondendum)
Note: Civil arrest is restricted or prohibited in most states.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com

civil contempt.
: contempt that consists of disobedience to a court order in favor of the opposing party
Note: The sanctions for civil contempt end upon compliance with the order.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com
(CIVIL CONTEMPT OF COURT CARRIES A LIFE SENTENCE ON DEATH ROW IN DEBTORS PRISON FOR INABILITY TO PAY COURT COSTS IF YOU SIGN A CONTRACT WITH THE COURT IN ALL COURTS IN USA TODAY: COMMON EXAMPLES INCLUDE DIVORCE COURT AND TRAFFIC COURT)

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"If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about 'taking jobs that Americans don't want' is such nonsense."
www.rense.com/general70/ddat.htm

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"Aztec Cannibalism: An Ecological Necessity? The Aztec diet was adequate in protein and cannibalism would not have contributed greatly."
by Professor Bernard R. Ortiz de Montellano
www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/montellano.htm

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'Immigration Protests' Cover For Racist Ethnic Cleansing Movement

Atzlan and Mexican Klan groups rejoice at start of 'la reconquista'


Mexican flag flies at LA City Hall

Paul Joseph Watson
www.PrisonPlanet.com UK
March 29 2006

At the height of last year's French riots, Voz de Aztlan leader Ernesto Cienfuegos stated that similar scenes of chaos would be witnessed on the streets of America. As reports of violence begin to filter through, a deliberately fomented race war hiding behind an immigration debate creeps ever closer.

"Today, here in Los Angeles, we are already seeing ominous signs of an impending social explosion that will make the French rebellion by Muslim and immigrant youths seem 'tame' by comparison," said Cienfuegos on November 8.

"All the ingredients are present including a hostile and racist police as in France. In fact, we came close to having major riots on three separate occasions just this year alone."

As the mainstream controlled media reports the immigration protests as peaceful and affords them a wealth of credence and credibility, ignoring the plethora of foreign flags compared to US flags, turn to Mexican TV news stations and you will encounter radical proselytizing about enacting the brutal plan on the invasion and takeover of the southern American states.



Aztlan's goal, known as la reconquista, is to cede and take over the entirety of the southern states by any means necessary and impose a Communist militant dictatorship.


Mexican Communists hold portraits of Jewish founders of Communism Lenin, Engels and Marx during a protest against the privatization of the energy industry in Mexico City Monday Feb. 16, 2004. Thousands of workers marched through the city's main streets protesting against the government proposal to privatize the energy industry. (AP Photo/Jose Luis Magana)

President Bush's blanket amnesty program goes a long way to helping the extremists achieve their aim.
www.stoptheftaa.org/artman/publish/article_91.shtml

Despite the fact that the majority of documented Hispanics oppose illegal immigration, as do the majority of Americans, Aztlan and La Raca race hate groups have become the self-appointed voice for a separatist movement that threatens a violent overthrow of the Constitutional system and a barbaric program of ethnic cleansing. This is held up by the media as 'diversity' and to vociferously oppose it is scorned as racism.

Aztlan and Mecha groups advocate killing all whites and blacks and driving them out of the southern states by means of brutal ethnic cleansing.
www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MEChAindex.html
www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/

In Spanish, the word mecha means fuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEChA

www.csus.edu/org/mecha/top.swf
Flash: MECHA logo with bomb fuze in buzzard's mouth

Flags and placards carried at marches depict white people having their heads cut off, as seen in the picture below.


MECHA's and Germany's Plan of San Diego orders genocide of all white males over age 16 in USA

Those that protest such groups are then attacked by the establishment media and labeled as racists, despite the fact that the Plan of San Diego, a rallying cry for the Hispanic Klan groups, advocates total eradication of any race but Hispanics.
www.infowars.net/Pages/Sept05/200905TCRR_attacks_Alex.htm

Mecha's own slogan reads, "For the race everything. For those outside the race, nothing."

TV stations owned by rich white industrialists erect giant billboards in Los Angeles claiming the city belongs to Mexico, as seen below.


Clear Channel Jews fund 700 billboards in Lost Angeles promoting TREASON - ZERO arrests

Mainstream Hispanics who love America abhor the virulent racism that the Mexican Klan groups embrace.

And who bankrolls these pocket radicals? Billionaire tax-exempt foundations and NGO's owned by white men. Organizations like the Ford Foundation, groups who are zealous in their quest to eliminate the middle class and destroy America, turning it into a cashless society, compact city, surveillance control grid where only two tiers of society exist - the elite and the poor slaves.

The Atzlan website today carries the following comments.

"If the racist "Sensenbrenner Legislation" passes the US Senate, there is no doubt that a massive civil disobedience movement will emerge. Eventually labor union power can merge with the immigrant civil rights and "Immigrant Sanctuary" movements to enable us to either form a new political party or to do heavy duty reforming of the existing Democratic Party. The next and final steps would follow and that is to elect our own governors of all the states within Aztlan."
www.aztlan.net/la_gran_marcha.htm

Here is the open call for violent separatism and the overthrow of existing state government structures.

A sizeable proportion of the secular humanist Westerners who like to think of themselves as part of the establishment, when in reality they are unwitting tools of the true elite, have bought into the cuddly utopian philosophy that the West is a global village which welcomes all comers and has the enlightened innate ability to homogenize millions of different people of all different colors and creeds into one giant melting pot.

The reality couldn't be further from the truth and last year's images of flaming buses, schools, nurseries, terror and panic in France betray that fact. Protests over changes in employment laws have flared into riots and we are now witnessing similar scenes on the streets of Paris as we saw last November.

The real power behind the clash of civilizations lies with Globalists, in whose interest it is to foment race wars. Their vision of the Western world can best be described as a corporate fascist high tech slave plantation, with all the proles packed into high rise compact cities. The middle class simply won't exist.

Every major minority movement throughout history has been infiltrated and steered by the elite in an attempt to obtain these objectives.

The elite want us to be at each others throats while they dominate over the downtrodden and befuddled warring tribes. Race is the ultimate touchstone hot button issue and the Globalists have enacted policies of rampant uncontrolled immigration in order to force hostile cultures to intermingle. The outcome is always tribal warfare, as we saw in Bosnia and Kosovo.

The Mexican Klan must be opposed at every turn if we are to prevent America being fed to the dogs of racial purity and ethnic cleansing, an ideology that was supposedly defeated in 1940's Germany but is openly called for today while the groups carrying it out are protected and funded by the establishment.

www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/immigration_protest_cover_for_ra
cist_ethnic_cleansing.htm



"It's a question stirring debate in legislatures in North Carolina and across the country: Should illegal immigrants be allowed to get driver's licenses? They can now in North Carolina and 22 other states."
'Giving an illegal alien a driver's license gives him a virtual foot in the door for remaining in the United States illegally,' said David Ray, associate director of FAIR. A license, Ray said, 'allows them to blend into American society and remain invisible to immigration authorities, whose job it is to send them back home.'"
—Charlotte Observer, "Illegal alien, legal driver? N.C. legislature wants to make license applicants prove they are in the U.S. legally," May. 25, 2003
www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/5940846.htm

"The state in early 2001 began awarding driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants. More than 180,000 were issued before post-Sept. 11 fears about proof of identity set in. In 2004, Tennessee was the first state to launch a certificate program to satisfy homeland security concerns. Since then, more than 51,000 certificates have been issued. Utah has a similar program."
—Lola Alapo, Knoxville News Sentinel, "Driving certificates to be granted with legal proof," March 3, 2006
www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4510776,00.html

Tennessee Driver License Handbook for CRIMINAL Aliens printed in SPANISH!
www.state.tn.us/safety/publications.htm

"Estimates of the cost to taxpayers of today's immigration level range from $29 to $51 billion annually, and increasing at a record rate. Illinois will need to build an additional school every month for the next 25 years to handle the increased school enrollment due to children of the new immigrants. The city of Chicago already spends about $450 million to educate immigrant children; the fastest growing component of its budget is for bilingual education. Bilingual education increases the cost of education per student by about 50%. Although most immigrants are law abiding, we can expect crime to increase. It costs Illinois $44 million a year to imprison illegal aliens. No estimates of the cost of jailed legal aliens are available, but since 1980 California has incurred a 600% increase in alien inmates. Nationally, 25% of federal prisoners are foreign born. Illinois is now spending more than $170 million on welfare for illegal immigrants. That is a mere drop in the bucket to what California has experienced. Illinois can expect its welfare cost to soar in the coming years. As a taxpayer it will come out of your pocket. Most congressmen believe that the problem of immigration will be solved by simply strengthening our border patrol. This is mistaken on two counts. First, the majority of illegal immigrants do not sneak in over the border. They enter the country on temporary visas. They then buy false identification and meld in with the population."
— www.ImmigrationReform.org, "The Immigration issue & our goals"

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"Black tar heroin is a variety of heroin produced in Mexico. It is the prevalent form of heroin in the western United States. In the eastern United States, South American-produced "white" (actually beige to off-white) powder heroin is most common. Almost all of the heroin produced in Mexico is destined for the western United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tar_Heroin

"Until the early 1990s, methamphetamine was made mostly in clandestine labs run by drug traffickers in Mexico and California. These areas are still the largest producers for the U.S. market. Pure methamphetamine in tablet form is prescribed by physicians (for ADD), and is available under the brand name Desoxyn®."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meth

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Originally posted by Phaedra:
I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.

For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.

For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

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USA is to be Balkanized and broken up, just like Yugoslavia and Iraq, and is already merged with Mexico and Canada via NAFTA SHAFTA slave contract. NAFTA also legalizes massive sex-slave trading and dope dealing by CIA and Bush White House.

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Originally posted by Righteous9:
Fletch,

now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings.

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