Illegal immigration by SignyM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Ain't it sweet that drug dealers, slave traders, rapists, armed robbers, serial killers and common criminals can petition OUR govt for BILLIONS of taxdollars in free welfare handouts, at OUR expense, while taking OUR jobs, and opening our nation to terrorist attack? Or if you want to be extra charitable, just call them "American" traitors. Or illegal American traitors.

Most of the employers of illegal aliens are organized crime, no matter what size of their company. Many, if not most, illegals are mules carrying drugs, and the "jobs" in USA are just a cover story for importing drugs like meth, heroin and cocaine. Legalize all drugs by killing Prohibition, and most of the illegal aliens would stay home in Mexico, where they don't have to work very hard. But then the Bush Crime Family would have to get real jobs too, which ain't likely.

The worst part about criminal aliens and NAFTA is that wages in USA will drop to Third World wages, if you're lucky enough to find a job, after most of the jobs are exported. Won't that be special?

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Monday, April 3, 2006 7:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Erm, PN's message is that the omnipotent British Queen, head of the British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, who are responcible for everything that has ever happened in the world, ever, are enslaving the people with the power of British-Commie-Nazi-Jew Flouride Telepathy.

Ignoring for a moment that most of his facts are misconceptions and misunderstandings firmly grounded in a complete lack of understanding of Physics, socio-polotics, History and a myriad of other things the fact that he thinks British-Commie-Nazi-Jews did it (not to mention the fact that he spews rhetoric straight out of the 'Big Book of Nazi Propeganda') is enough for me to dismiss his message.

I've ripped his posts and his facts apart before now, his reply is "You would say that! You're one of them, bah hiss!". I'm not one of them, they don't exist.

The level of delusion that sees a man who can barely tie his own shoe laces as the head of a global conspiracy so intricate, complex and well hidden from the popular view such as the BCNJ is staggering.

I don't care who runs that global over arching conspiracy which you (I use the term generally) are the only one capable of uncovering, whether it's Aliens, British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, School children or the Underpants nomes, you're still a nut. Lets be honest here, if there was any truth in what he says the BCNJ would of off'ed him sometime ago, a couple of dogs, a Shotgun and a security light are hardly going to stop a group that's manipulated the entire Human race since the beginning of time.

actually I haven't seen anyone rip PN's facts apart including you. What I have seen is people have diffrent opinions from his own, an diffrent theories, but I've never seen anyone come up with any concrete facts that have disproved anything that he'said.

I'm not saying he's right about everything, or that his opinion is more valid then anyone elses, nor am I saying that anyone should take his opinion theories or information at face value, all I'm saying is that I think its a cop-out and its just to easy to call him a nut case...Why? just because you don't believe what he's saying, I mean you may very well be right maybe he is as you say or not, but even if that is the case does that make the information wrong?

and if its his opinions you that you don't like, for example the British Queen Commie

or whatever, thats an opinion that can be easily dismissed. Seperating the wheat from the chafe shouldn't be to hard!! if your inclined to do so

Forget about PN the poster for a minute and concentrate on the information, even if its not all right its certainly not all wrong.

and I don't think PN thinks Bush is head of a global conspiracy, I think I've indulged in enough of his post to know that, a puppet Yes, but head I don't think anyone thinks that!!lol, His family is defintely a part of the elite global society..and could it be that maybe you assume to much?., maybe thats why its just so easy to dismiss PN as what do you call it ..A Nut CASE...just some food for thought

PJ

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Monday, April 3, 2006 8:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Hey Piratejenny,

Yeah, diebold and the like are a big issue.

I basically agree with you. A revolution is what they need. I'm not sure I put the blame on the people at this point, for not rising up. I take the basic premise that people are people, meaning that, if these people have reacted differently in this situation than others have in a different situation, the overall circumstances must be different, even if that circumstance is mindset alone.

And I can't really see it being too heartening, to actually have a revolution(they did revolt against their oppressive government) only to have their chosen leader undermined not only by the people's enemies, but by the United States(if I were to distinguish the two). That's the sort of result that feeds apathy, and teaches helplessness, and quite frankly its the far more common result of a revolution...replace one bad regime with another. I wasn't saying the U.S. was unique for revolting...I was saying it was rare for succeeding in making something better.

The only other thing is I really don't remember a day of our revolution. I can't really claim that "WE" overthrew the British and "WE" earned our freedoms. I didn't earn them any more than the bussers at the restaurant I work at did. Would I fight for such a thing if I were put in the situation? I'd like to think I would, but I don't know.

Aside of those quibbles, I agree with you. In fact, after reading a post of yours before the one you posted to me, I was wondering why I was engaging in this long debate, because in the context of that post, my post didn't seem as well founded. But I never read that one, and just saw a post that, while not wrong in any way, seemed to frame this particular issue by chastising the people who don't have the power(or at least haven't realized the power), rather than the ones who have it and are abusing it. My appologies, if I misinterpreted.

you don't have to apolojise to me for having an opinion and voicing it. I love a good discussion I just think its to easy for us to get stuck in the now..and not look ahead..many people can't look ahead or never think to, because they are to wrapped up in the present. And I can't fault a person of good fortune to feel some compassion, but the facts are the very conditions that illegal immigrants are running away from in their own countries, is the very condition that they are helping to create here.

When the U.S.A becomes a third world nation which it is in the beginning stages now, Where are they going to run to? where are we going to run to?

What many people are failing to realize is that the global elite who run this country and others countries, through old money, royalty,business and poltics, What they want to happen and are working to make happen is third world conditions, where there are only to classes the rich, and the poor and nothing inbetween, where the rich have all the power and the poor have none.

even now as I write this, its almost funny, because to the Power elite, their are no such things as borders, or even nations..its all about them.

Nothing is going to be done about the illegal immigrants coming into this country by the thousands, we all know what the solution to the problem is, but these globalist want this they want choas, they want, discord, they want fear, they want hate, they want to keep people fighting, and working and surviving, because people are easy to control that way, none of this is by chance, its been planned.

I just think as Americans we all need to see this and we all need to band together on this.

PirateNews WROTE:

Quote:
The worst part about criminal aliens and NAFTA is that wages in USA will drop to Third World wages, if you're lucky enough to find a job, after most of the jobs are exported. Won't that be special?

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Monday, April 3, 2006 8:35 PM

Illegal immigration is something which should not be about party politics. In the end it's about money and people (as was said way above).

Now I've read the entire thread (even PirateNews's ramblings) before saying this.

Illegal aliens are not Americans. Nomatter how much you might like any person "who happen to be illegal," they have most certainly broken several at-least misdemeanor violations of the law and in general do not pay for most of their crimes.

As an analogy, let me introduce the movie Traffic. Yes, if you see it, Traffic might open your eyes a little to what is really going on, and it has everything to do with money and people. Basically... greed.

There are so many people in the world who have not and desire to become Americans... the haves. Estimates are at 11 Million and growing of people who are "jumping the turnstiles" to do things illegally, which in the end allows them to pocket more money. Just for instance at just the monetary effects:

1. Employers (especially small businesses!) are FORCED to hire illegals at cut rates to stay competitive or otherwise they'll go out of business. To enforce this Senate policy will simply drive out small business! (I hear stories about it every day)

2. Insurance rates are going UP because of illegals who can't read road signs/can't drive and get into accidents, and also because many illegals don't have to pay insurance.

3. More people means more consumption of goods, as it was said water supplies in SouthWest towns are getting low... and that's the tip of the iceberg.

4. Many Illegal alien children are being allowed slots in public schools without paying for it... therefore either driving the other parents' costs up or the entire town's property taxes up.

5. Loopholes in the Welfare system have allowed Illegals to be living "off the arm" once they get here. And if you're living off the government... why would you leave?

6. More money now has to be spent in schools and in public areas to make bilingual signs, receipts, etc... so those illegals who can't read English perhaps may not screw up and run over people in sidewalks (which does happen too).

7. Not to mention the amount of crime which has sprung up in the sections of this country full of illegal immigrants. In fact, I've heard several cases now of Illegals who are now convicted US felons being denied deportation because the country doesn't want them anymore!

Eh that's just for starters, there have been other examples made too.

One problem is globalization and capitalism not being held in check. I say globalization because it's global companies who are recruiting people to America through many means (not all legal) and they are the ones hiring the many workers from overseas. I say capitalism because to me, our system of capitalism runs off greed, and greed pushes this whole debate.

Another problem is the differences in State laws. While that Lawyer from Ohio may have strict sentencing for lawbreaking illegals there, here in Massachusetts they actually brought to discussion in the State Senate a bill which would grant Illegal Aliens the ability to get scholarships for college!!! Just one example of many here in the Ted Kennedy state. Speaking of...

Illegal Immigration is the primary issue of one Senator Edward Kennedy (D - MA). He instituted the bill in 1965 to create the laws we have now on the books and disregarded the older law which made things really strict for illegal immigrants. He is the main senator in the senate fighting for these illegal immigrants to get their money, and he was part draftee of this bill too!

My point is, there is a few things to be done - if you're against illegal aliens taking paying (not just low-paying either) jobs away from our working class, do this:

VOTE OUT the Congresspeople who approve these bills! I know my vote is going directly against one Senator Ed (Ted) Kennedy.

JOIN groups like the Minutemen and show how many people dislike Illegal immigration AND illegal immigrants!

GET INVOLVED in your local town, county, and state politics to get their policies changed!

I say it's time the people who's families have been here for generations bond together and do everything possible to keep the freeloaders out.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

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Monday, April 3, 2006 10:27 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateJenny:
actually I haven't seen anyone rip PN's facts apart including you. What I have seen is people have diffrent opinions from his own, an diffrent theories, but I've never seen anyone come up with any concrete facts that have disproved anything that he'said.

You haven't huh. Scroll up.

Look at the last thread where he was using a 30 year old picture of a soldier in Ireland to prove that Northern Ireland is currently under martial law.

Most of his facts are choc full of complete and utter nonsense which steadly loses him more credibillity the more he posts. Mixing up MI5 and MI6 is akin to not knowing the difference between the FBI and the CIA and should be the first stop for an conspiracy theory involving the omnipresent British government, as should the fact that the British Queen is merely a figurehead, she has no power. But these little facts get in the way of PN's fantasy, so wheell ya know what, lets just ignore 'em.

Thing is the truth and facts aren't all that great for PN, get in the way of the delusion which lets him put himself in the position of true all American hero fighting the hordes of darkness.

So what he does is cherry picks facts, spins in his direction and simply leaves out anything that doesn't fit. This is a far more insidious process than that which is performed by politicians, since they know they're doing it, PN doesn't.

That having been said I am no fan of spin, whether it's used to twist facts to make Iraq a world super power harbour WMDs and preparing to nuke the US, or if it's used to prove the existence of British-Commie-Nazi-Jews.

Quote:
I mean you may very well be right maybe he is as you say or not, but even if that is the case does that make the information wrong?

No, it makes it propaganda and since I already know most of what he's going on about in the un-British-Commie-Nazi-Jew-ified form it interests me, erm, not at all. You see PN doesn't have a divine link to knowledge, we can all see what he sees. The telling thing is that most of us don't see it as proof of British-Commie-Nazi-Jews living under our beds.

Quote:
and I don't think PN thinks Bush is head of a global conspiracy, I think I've indulged in enough of his post to know that, a puppet Yes, but head I don't think anyone thinks that!!lol, His family is defintely a part of the elite global society..and could it be that maybe you assume to much?., maybe thats why its just so easy to dismiss PN as what do you call it ..A Nut CASE...just some food for thought

The reason I call him a nut case is because he has come out and said the world is run by British-Commie-Nazi-Jews. It's not.

Quote:
When the U.S.A becomes a third world nation which it is in the beginning stages now, Where are they going to run to? where are we going to run to?

What many people are failing to realize is that the global elite who run this country and others countries, through old money, royalty,business and poltics, What they want to happen and are working to make happen is third world conditions, where there are only to classes the rich, and the poor and nothing inbetween, where the rich have all the power and the poor have none.

even now as I write this, its almost funny, because to the Power elite, their are no such things as borders, or even nations..its all about them.

It's called successful capitalism. It's what happens, it's how it's supposed to work.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well,

Other than detailing that Bannannas and Granite pose the same level of health threat, and pointing out that an actual tac nuke is better than a cargo-container sized bomb for faking a terrorist attack...

It's hard to argue with PirateNews. Each paragraph he posts contains a dozen different refutable facts, and trying to get him to argue just ONE gleans an unfocused response with dozens of additional refutable facts. It's quite frustrating.

I mean, I'd ask him why he thinks Winston Churchill is Jewish, but I fear that instead of detailing his argument in step by step logical methodology, he will shotgun me again. Focus isn't News's strongpoint.

It's also not helpful when he just insults his opponents by calling them Nazi-Jews. I mean, that's not an argument. It's an insult used when you don't have an argument.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 11:00 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

O.K. I'm joining this late and much as I have tried to resist I've just got to say it:

East Angliashire? Where the Fuck is that supposed to be?

Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?

Get an Atlas Redneck.

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 11:21 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?

Get an Atlas Redneck.

I'nt East Anglia somewhere in Europe?

CitizenIsJade...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 11:39 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Another blindingly intelligent conversation from Fletcher2.

Oh I'm sorry, were we having a "conversation?" Call me old fashioned but I always thought a "conversation" involved both sides speaking and both sides listening. I thought you were ranting and I was hurling insults from the peanut gallery. My apologies, had I known this was a "conversation" I would have brought tea and crumpets.

Quote:

Can you read the fact that US Border Patrol agents agree with me on their own website?

Even if that were true even a broken watch is right twice a day. You can't even make that average.

Quote:

And you DON'T think there's something wrong with seeing Serenity 8 times in a theater? Unless perhaps at a dollar movie.

As a Browncoat that likes this show, has met and likes some of the people in it and who wants there to be a Serenity 2, no I think seeing it 8 times was my way of trying to get my show back. In fact hard cash at the box office the only way that the suits in Hollyweird will ever pay attention. Did you see it in the theatre? Did you buy the DVD or the TV series? Are you a fan of this show or does this board just give you a convenient soap box to spew your hate messages?

Quote:

Why don't you go to a city council meeting, or county commission meeting, or state legislature, and SPEAK in public forum?

Well I _would_ but I'm certain that the whole 1776 thing was about making sure that American politics was no longer any of my business.

Quote:

In Serenity, don't you comprehend the Bad Guys work FOR The Govt? Or do you just like watching The Govt slaughter innocent people with guns and mind control - both in the movie and the Real World?

Actually it's far more complex than that. There is no evil empire in the Firefly 'Verse, both sides in the unification war believed that they were in the right and that what they did had the noblist of reasons. This is Joss here, he doesn't write black hats and white hats, he writes shades of grey. That's why the Operative lets the crew go in the end rather than just slaughter them because his faith in a perfect world was shattered by Miranda. A typical movie villian is one dimensional and singlemindedly evil to the end. The Operative has beliefs that guide his actions, when his Masters betray those beliefs he can no longer support them.

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 11:59 AM

PHAEDRA

Wow, that was special. I love getting into political battles with people, but usually there is more to work with. A few observations regarding your response to my post:

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights.

Quote:
ILLEGAL immigrants have rights?

Hmmm . . . Why yes they do. Fundamental rights (like freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly) apply to all persons, regardless of citizenship status.

Quote:
Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message.

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In this case, that's a bad thing. Illegal immigrants shouldn't have political clout.

Well, that's your opinion which you have the right to. Personally I a big fan of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment. The immigration protests have been far better organized and more effective than the recent anti-globalization protest. Also you take for granted that all members of the protest were "illegal immagrants," many were natural born and naturalized citizens who are concerned for the rights of others.

Quote:
The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Quote:
That's a stupid comment. Especially the fellow American part. I'll say it again, THEY'RE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They are NOT American. If they were American, they wouldn't be illegal immigrants (at least not while they're living in America).

Well, darlin', technically the contenents are North and South America, which would make them Americans. The colloquial use of the term is misleading since you're infact referring to US citzens.

Quote:
It's a shame that some people are so self-righteous when it comes to these sort of issues that they totally miss the point.

I'm sorry, did you have a point. I was simply writing about my impressions having participated in the marches. Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.

Kisses,

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.

Phaedra, you just want us all to see these illegals as you do- equals to us, human men and women that could be our friends and even family, given the chance, right? Like, if not for the grace of God, we could be them, wanting to be here, is that it? Well, if you think you're gonna change peoples minds here, think again Miss.

But I'm with ya

.

Illegal on Earth Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:59 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
ILLEGAL immigrants have rights?

Hmmm . . . Why yes they do. Fundamental rights (like freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly) apply to all persons, regardless of citizenship status.

Uh huh, but fundamental rights isn't what they were protesting about. And those weren't the rights I was referring to, and you know it. Besides, technically I don't think freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly are counted as fundamental rights, but I think we probably both agree that they should be so let's not debate about that.

Quote:
Quote:
Illegal immigrants shouldn't have political clout.

Well, that's your opinion which you have the right to. Personally I a big fan of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment. The immigration protests have been far better organized and more effective than the recent anti-globalization protest. Also you take for granted that all members of the protest were "illegal immagrants," many were natural born and naturalized citizens who are concerned for the rights of others.

I didn't fail to see that not all of them were themselves illegal immigrants, but that doesn't change the fact that those people were amongst all the illegal immigrants protesting for their rights (and to be clear, I'm not talking about fundamental rights, just in case you want to use that as an 'argument'). Rights that they, being ILLEGAL immigrants, aren't entitled to.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Quote:
That's a stupid comment. Especially the fellow American part. I'll say it again, THEY'RE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They are NOT American. If they were American, they wouldn't be illegal immigrants (at least not while they're living in America).

Well, darlin', technically the contenents are North and South America, which would make them Americans. The colloquial use of the term is misleading since you're infact referring to US citzens.

I'm pretty sure I used the word 'American' in the same sense that you did. I find it hard to believe you used 'American' in the inter-continental sense, since nobody does that and it makes that part of your statement sort of trivial (you might as well have said 'our fellow human beings', less prone to misinterpretation).

Quote:

I'm sorry, did you have a point. I was simply writing about my impressions having participated in the marches. Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.

Hah! That's a joke. Where was I xenophobic? In my short response, I mentioned the word 'illegal' three times. I even wrote it in capitals! Doesn't that give you an impression of where my problem lies? I don't have a problem with immigrants, I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants. I emphasised that and yet you still decided to ignore that and took the easy way out by calling me a xenophobe. And yes, I did have a point, which you also decided to ignore because of some self-righteous, I'm-better-than-you-because-I-care-for-the-less-fortunate ego trip.

Now, like most people on here, I fully sympathise with the plight of illegal immigrants, I know they don't have easy lives and are essentially good people. However, that doesn't mean it's okay that they enter a country illegally and then demand to have the same rights and freedoms as the people of the country they entered. I don't see why that should be acceptable and why people that disagree with it being acceptable, such as myself, need to defend their positions.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Tuesday, April 4, 2006 8:18 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Freedom of speech is granted to illegal aliens - but ONLY during their trial by magistrate, as to why they should not be deported immediately. That's the ONLY free speech they have in USA. If they love Mexico so much to wave its flag, then they can go speak in Mexico.

Today, I spoke with a LEGAL alien who is now a US citizen, formerly from England, RAF MOD, now working a hi-tech job. I asked him about the topic of this thread, specifically about "anchor babies". He replied with a string of profanities, too numerous to remember, but they did cover the spectrum of the ENGLISH language.

He pointed out how absurd it is, from a legal point of view, for illegal aliens to have babies in USA, then those babies be considered US citizens, thus granting illegal aliens an exemption to arrest and deportation for their crimes. He pointed out the fact of law that when a foreign tourist has a baby in USA, that baby is NOT counted as a US citizen. So it is a lie for illegal aliens to claim their babies are US citizens. Good point.

When asked if he thought it was a good idea for 30-million illegal aliens to remain in USA with amnesty from Jr Bush, another string of profanities ensued. Of course it is extremely bad for USA to allow these crimes to go unpunished, to paraphrase his comments.

USA is an English speaking country, and he HATES when he's asked whether he wants to speak Spanish to do business in USA, such as for banking and customer service telephone robots, etc. He points out that they don't ask if he wants to speak German or Chinese, so it's very suspicious to only ask about Spanish/Mexican, indicating an AGENDA to overthrow USA via premeditated invasion. I pointed out that NAFTA officially merged USA with Mexico and Canada, making USA now part of the British Commonwealth and British Empire under the Queen. He hadn't thought of that, but wasn't thrilled by the idea, since he has no desire to live in UK under royal tyranny, with GATSO Robocop Spy Cams EVERYWHERE taxing drivers to death. He was not thrilled when I pointed out that a private military contractor in AUSTRAILIA now runs the Robocop Spy Cam Scam here in Knoxville Tennessee, keeping all the profits and replacing police, prosecutors and courts, contrary to the pathological lies spewed by the media mafia and city council, that it's an Arizona company from USA. REDflex does Robocops all over USA, and also does GPS taxation by the mile to turn all roads into toll roads...
www.redflex.com.au

Another thing I did today was legal research on a traffic citation defense, where I'm facing 30 days jail, for alleged driving 5mph. (FIVE mph! not a typo) 30 days jail is the statutory sentence for ALL traffic citations in Tennessee. Does that sound right to you? I audited the public court docket for tickets from this deputy, looking for fixed tickets (theft and extortion), illegal quotas (racketeering and organized crime), and witnesses to perjury from the deputy. One included an obvious illegal alien, no driver license, no address, cannot speak English so he got a govt interpreter. Not one mention in the record of DEPORTATION. Judge gave him time to find a place to live (a fake address), and extorted $500 as a bribe to let this CONVICTED CRIMINAL stay in USA, WITHOUT JAIL. Not a REAL hero to be found. Tennessee's Gangsta Govt has sold driver licenses to over 250,000 illegal aliens, so far, and provides its entire Driver License Handbook in Spanish. Does that sound right to you?

An arrest made by this cop was of a US citizen riding an ATV on the street (safely without causing a crash), for (w)reckless driving, evading arrest and resisting arrest. VERY profitable for court costs... But he can't arrest an illegal alien for criminal trespass?

Quote:
SHOCKING VIDEO DOWNLOAD: 'Atzlan' - The End Of America
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/040406Aztlan.htm

Immigration Watchdog
April 4 2006

It is imperative that each one of us call our Senators and members of Congress, every day. They are preparing an unlimited guest worker amnesty plan. 20 million illegal aliens and their families living abroad will be given de facto amnesty. As many as 200 million foreign workers will also be allowed to compete for American jobs within the next 45 years. We will no longer be a sovereign nation. We will become an overpopulated economic region ruled by wealthy CEO’s and foreign interests.

Make those calls!

Join FAIR and NumbersUSA. Use their ready-made faxes and emails to contact your elected officials.

www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?page_id=810
www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=homepage
www.numbersusa.com

"We have an aging white America. They are dying. We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
-Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas, Arlington, founder of La Raza Unida (The Race United)

I'll add that I was a legal resident of Germany and England for 9 years, and I got married in Germany, to a US citizen from the North Pole, er, Wisconsin. My sister's husband, a PhD, is from Holland. My brother's ex-wife is from Commie Russia. He was scammed by the Russian (Jewish) Mafiya, according to his ex-wife's diary, in a fraudulent marriage with an anchor baby. The scam included bringing his wife's mafiya boyfriend to USA after the divorce, prearranged before the sham marriage. The sheriff's dept was so scared of terrorism from the Russian mafiya (aka Mossad), they contacted US Dept of Homeland Security, who did NOTHING. This was testified to during the divorce trial, but the gay Republican Jewish judge of Divorce Court (judge was married 4 times) ordered this sham marriage was allegedly legit, and docked my brother $6,000/month and put him in debtor's prison for 10 days, for civil contempt, when he couldn't afford to pay her $50,000 lawyer fee. His wife/ex-wife has always refused to get a job of any kind, despite him paying for her college degree. Now my brother is so outraged, he's campaigning against that judge in the Republican primary next month. If he can convince the GOP vote fraud counters to let him win, then he wins. 40,000 votes disappeared in the 2000 election in our county, since a foreign military contractor runs our computer voting machines. This private contractor routinely loses 100,000 votes in each county all across USA. Danaher's pathalogical lying sales literature fraudulently alleges its ELECTronic 1242 ® Voting System is "100% accurate - Incredibly reliable"....
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/185
www.blackboxvoting.org

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

Quote:
UPDATE: GENOCIDE OF USA ON TV NEWS

US professor wants genocide of 5.5-billion humans by bioterrorism - Fellow professors and scientists applause and roar approval at elite's twisted and genocidal population control agenda
www.infowars.com/articles/commentary/emails_pianka_response_biologist.
htm

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: NBC News - UT Genocide Scientist Backpedals on News Report
http://infowars.com/video/clips/news/science/040406_ut_genocide_scient
ist.htm
www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=4720390

"Humans have overpopulated the Earth and in the process have created an ideal nutritional substrate on which bacteria and viruses (microbes) will grow and prosper. We are behaving like bacteria growing on an agar plate, flourishing until natural limits are reached or until another microbe colonizes and takes over. I am convinced that the world WOULD clearly be much better off without so many of us. The ancient Chinese curse 'may you live in interesting times' comes to mind -- we are living in one of the most interesting times humans have ever experienced."
-Prof Eric R. Pianka
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Evaranus/Everybody.html

MAL: I'm told ya'll took up arms in that little piece of action back there.

SIMON: Yes, I -- Yes.

MAL: How you farin' with that, Doctor?

SIMON: I don't know... I never shot anyone before.

BOOK: I was there, son. I'm fair sure you haven't shot anyone yet.

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 2:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Phaedra, just to get past this anti- or pro-Hispanic thing: what would you say to 10 million illegal Rwandan immigrants?

No matter how I look at it, even if we wanted to gather up all the poor downtrodden of the world (even understanding that it was our fault for trodding on them in the first place) and bring them in with open arms, we couldn't. The history of massive immigration has been exploitation and ghettos, whether the immigrants were Jewish, Irish (and they were English-speaking!), Italian... or Mexican, Honduran, or Guatemalan. There is no way to bring in large numbers of immigrants w/o that result. And frankly, I'm not about to argue for people's right to be exploited, since that simply means that I'll be exploited too.

If we were to actively promote immigration, we would have to
a) change the laws to make them "legal" to work,
b) ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage: You can't read a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) or even "Hearing Protection Required" if you can't read English
c) understand their rights as workers.

Then there is the problem of valid driver's licenses and interaction with the law. How do you obtain a license if you can't read the Rule of the Road instruction booklet? Or, do we provide instruction booklets in every language under the sun? And when a cop says "Show me your driver's license and registration" how does an non-speaker know what to do? I know this sounds like farce, but there was an Indian (ie from India) looking for an intruder at night at his brother's business who was shot to death because he didn't understand "Throw down your weapon" and "Stop or I'll shoot".

So- how much money, time, and effort are you going to spend integrating ALL these immigrants? Or, how do you justify letting SOME (Hispanic, or maybe specifically Mexican- it's not quite clear to me which) immigrants slide and putting others (Romanian, Ugandan etc) thru the wringer?

What about Social Security? People are getting taxed for a system that they will probably never collect from.

What about welfare, health insurance, auto insurance, auto registration (do you have any idea how many uninsured, unregistered vehicles are rolling around LA?), education etc?

People who get all bleedy about poor Hispanics (and all huffy about the agreement to leave California, New Mexico and Arizona biligual- which it should be by international agreement) don't seem to realize where their agruments are taking them in a global sense.

So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:

1) Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective. If that means build a wall, then build it.
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
3) Raise our Federal minimum wage. It's counterinutitive- you would think that a higher minimum wage would increase the "draw" into this country- but companies are simply not going to pay a non-English speaking person $9/ hour. And enforce it. If you find a company that violates the minimum wage law, drive them out of business with fines, put their (corporate) head on a pike by the city gates. The other will get the message.
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.
5) Take the current immigrees (Indian, Russian, Phillipine, Chinese) and give them English literacy tests and English classes. If they don't learn to speak the language at a rudimentary level in six months, boot them out.

BTW- My spouse, dad, and my mother's grandparents were all immigrees. They all learned to speak English. Si se puede.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:09 AM

AMITON

I'm not going to weigh in on this topic since it is *very* much a hot button topic for me, and I don't like to get quite that worked up, but I did see this, SignyM:

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:
[...]
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
[...]
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.

Just as a point of procedure, doesn't implementing (4) violate the principle of (2)?

Amiton.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 6:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No. The first is a military process, the second is an economic one. Maybe what I should have said was: We should stop interfering militarily in other nations. That includes eliminating both overt invasion (which we've done time and time again), military assistance, and covert destabilization.

--------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Maybe what I should have said was: We should stop interfering militarily in other nations. That includes eliminating both overt invasion (which we've done time and time again), military assistance, and covert destabilization.

*In his best Zoe voice* What? And give up our planet?

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 7:21 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?

Get an Atlas Redneck.

I'nt East Anglia somewhere in Europe?

CitizenIsJade...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

East Anglia in Europe?
Not if I can help it...BACK OFF BRUSSELS!!!

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:44 PM

MILAGROBEAN

I don't see anyone asking the question---why are there so many illegal immigrants here now? Why are so many illegal immigrants Hispanic? While I sort of understand the suggestion of trying to imagine them as 10 million Rwandans, I think that circumvents the historical relationship between the US and Latin American countries. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when we are reading in the media that there are between 11-12 million illegal immigrants here, I think that refers to all, regardless of origin, not only Hispanics? Does anyone have numbers for this sub-group?

In any case, I'm going to borrow a phrase from the title of a book by Juan Gonzalez "Harvest of Empire". The U.S. has a long-standing policy of destabilizing Latin American governments. All in the cause of bringing democracy to our neighbors...it has been an utter failure. Look at the result in Chile, Paraguay, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, to name a few. Instead of military intervention and political subterfuge, perhaps we could have invested in Latin America instead of exploiting it for cheap labor. Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal. So what now? I'm sorry to say, I think the arguments many of you are making are desparate ones. Too little, too late. Where were you when Trujillo was using the Dominican Republic as his personal playground and murdering anyone who looked at him the wrong way? How about when Pinochet's minions were throwing tires over people (los quemados) and burning them alive?

NAFTA set up the way for maquiladoras in Mexico who pulled out when cheaper labor became available in Asia. Europe has its own harvest of empire--that's where the Africans are going. The Buddhists call this karma or the simple law of cause and effect. What I mean is, we need to look at the whole picture here...compassionate responsiblity is not just for idiots who stare at their navels.

If I'm getting a little sketchy..up past my bedtime...forgive me. Ok, here it is. The America you are trying to preserve is already gone. Spanish IS the second language in the US. Have you called FedEx lately, Verizon, your utility company? If you go into the Department of Motor Vehicles, the written test is offered in Spanish. Chinese will soon be our third language. And I have to say, why the h*** not? Europeans speak 2 or 3 languages. Hispanics, believe it or not, do value education (however as my father says "it's hard to get an education on an empty stomach"), and are taught English in their schools. Yes, they are....I have cousins who speak English without an accent who have NEVER lived in the US. Doesn't anyone go to Chinatown, Little Italy, Queens, NY for chrissake...what about all the German and Scandinavian immigrants that settled throughout the Midwest and up into Oregon? Do you think Grandmother and Grandfather spoke English? It does really make me think, it's the brown-ness that upsets people. If Holland was under water and all the Dutch came here, would you notice, would you mind? I'm not saying this is watertight conclusion--feel free to tell me I'm wrong and why.

And by the way, many immigrants, legal or not, do learn English. I volunteer at a small language school that offers classes for immigrants and refugees. They come to learn after working 14 hours a day. Or after spending day after day in isolation raising their kids, with no one to talk to, because their spouse is the one with 2 jobs. Oh, except they can't take morning classes anymore. The Dept of Education cut funding, so the school can only offer night classes now. Go figure.

If Latin American economies don't improve, workers will continue to look for opportunies elsewhere. Why did European immigrants come here in the 19th and 20th centuries? This situation can not be changed by force. Can we go house to house and chase people back over the border with brooms? Many have been here for over 20 years. Not a good enough reason? Worked for the early American settlers (this land is your land, this land is my land...).

And for the record, my father came here legally, as a professional. He was already a G.P. in the Dominican Republic when he came here to do his sub-speciality. He had to learn French to get through medical school in DR. And was immersed in English when he came here to study. Lucky for him too, because he didn't understand when the Irish-American priest, who was to marry my sweet Irish-American mother and he, told him "if Clint [my maternal grandfather] were alive today, he wouldn't allow you to step foot in this house!". Story goes my father just smiled, nodded and agreed. He does love this country but also has a healthy suspicion of government. Passed it on whole to me.

milagrobean

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I just wanted to comment that I don't think the US intervened to set up democracies in Central and South America. For the most part it was setting up business partners - dictators - to exploit the region.

However, I also think that the US does need to tighten up its borders, considering that the Administration is not about to prosecute employers or raise the minimum wage. Having massive illegal cross-border traffic is a security risk.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:53 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Warning! US Senate Amnesty bill contains in-state tuition for illegals!

Quote:
Contact: William Gheen, Americans for Legal Immigration (ALIPAC)
WilliamG@alipac.us (866) 329-3999

The controversial proposal to give illegal aliens taxpayer subsidized in-state tuition at American universities is included in the immigration "reform" bill that also contains the Guest Worker Amnesty proposals according to the Washington Times!

Nine states allow illegal aliens to receive the in-state tuition rates.

"If this bill passes, the American taxpayers will be forced to pay for illegal aliens to replace their own children in the limited seats in college" says William Gheen of ALIPAC. "Professional polls in North Carolina show over 81% opposition to in-state tuition for illegal aliens. It is bad enough the Senate is proposing Guest Worker Amnesty. Now they want us to pay college tuition for illegal aliens!"

www.alipac.us/article1135.html

What do you expect from a Senate controlled by Reaver CanniBill Frist MD, who was busted for Medicare fraud, paid an $840-MILLION criminal fine for his felonious Hospital Corporation of America, then was elected to the US Senate, and promoted to Speaker of the Senate in his freshman term...

Quote:
The Mexican solution

How the Mexican govt arrests illegal aliens in Mexico

By Frank J. Gaffney, Jr.
The Washington Times
April 4, 2006

In fact, as a just-published paper by the Center for Security Policy's J. Michael Waller points out, under a constitution first adopted in 1917 and subsequently amended, Mexico deals harshly not only with illegal immigrants. It treats even legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and foreign investors in ways that would, by the standards of those who carp about U.S. immigration policy, have to be called "racist" and "xenophobic."
www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/Mexicos_Glass_House.pdf

For example, according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:

• Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

• Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."

• Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers, as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

In accordance with Article 130, immigrants -- even legal ones -- may not become members of the clergy, either.

• Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."

• Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right.

• The Mexican constitution states that foreigners -- not just illegal immigrants -- may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20060403-091644-4215r.htm

In "good" news, Dr Death was visited by operative from the FBI.

Quote:
"He's a radical thinker, that one! I mean, he's basically advocating for the death of all but 10% of the current population! And at the risk of sounding just as radical, I think he's right. It's the harsh reality that many people alive right now should be dead. And even harsher to think that the world would be better off with them dead too."
-Serenity, associate cult member of Dr Pianka, "Dr. Death Gets FBI Visit - Media, colleagues continue to portray him as the innocent victim," April 6, 2006
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/060406fbivisit.htm

Serenity Blog
http://brenmccnnll.blogspot.com/2006/03/dr.html

I haven't made you ANGRY, have I?!
-Capt Malcolm Reynolds

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What can I say. Once again the political game takes precedence over common sense.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by milagrobean:

Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal.

The America you are trying to preserve is already gone.

I don't disagree on any particular point, sir.

Wow, that was a comprehensive post Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:05 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal.

The America you are trying to preserve is already gone.

I don't think the question is what to do about illegals already here. I think the issue is how to change the factors involved. The US government corporation is far too greedy to either prosecute employers or raise the minimum wage. But as a measure of self-preservation the US does need to secure its borders.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:10 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by old england dry:

Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?

I lived in Oxfordshire, aka Oxon, and can't resist using the word "shire" in a sentence. East Angliashire is populated by hobbits. Are you a hobbit? I used to hang out in JRR Tolkein's bar & grill in Oxford. Just your usual gang of drunken trolls and goblins.

www.minutemanhq.com

Quote:
Migrants Find a Gold Rush in New Orleans

Word spread to Latino laborers as Katrina's floodwaters ebbed: There is work with good money and no questions about papers.

By Sam Quinones
LA Times
April 4, 2006

As the floodwaters of Hurricane Katrina receded in September, roads filled with residents leaving the city, their cars, SUVs and moving vans jammed with what they had salvaged of their lives.

But another mass movement was taking place on the other sides of the highways.

Thousands of men from Mexico and Central America were driving into the city. Word had spread throughout the Latino immigrant diaspora in America that the city had plenty of work, construction wages had doubled to $16 an hour and no one was asking for papers.

www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-labor4apr04%2C0%2C685
8623.story

There are still at least 500 corpses rotting in their homes, while the survivors are still not allowed to return to their homes, nor allowed to work. But illegal aliens terrorists are welcome, especially to work for the Jewish casino robber barons. 100,000 homes in New Orleans are scheduled for demolition, even tho most are repairable, but Gangsta Govt won't allow it.

Quote:

Mexican troops arrive Thursday afternoon in Bexar County, Texas, as they make their way towards KellyUSA in San Antonio to bring aid for Hurricane Katrina victims. Metro photo by William Luthers ©2005 San Francisco Chronicle

On September 8, the Mexican Army was received with honors at Kelly Air Force Base by the mayor of San Antonio, Texas. Local news channels noted the fact that the Mexican Army operated on U.S. soil after 159 years of absence, last time being the Mexican American War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
www.infowars.com/articles/us/mexican_troops_enter_texas_armed.htm

Mexican troops attack United States
In what can only be called a military attack, Mexican troops brandishing weapons stole contraband worth millions of dollars while holding Border Patrol agents at gunpoint. The media spins the story as if it were a standoff. A standoff would have been if no one got the dump truck or the drugs. There have now been over 800 killed in the South Texas border zone in the last year. Car bombs in Dallas, machine-gunning deaths on a daily basis, the US Mission has been shut down in Neuvo Laredo because of persistent rocket-propelled grenade attacks. The border incident occurred Thursday evening when Border Patrol agents attempted to pull over a dump truck on Interstate 10 in Hudspeth County, Texas. The driver fled from the agents, exiting the freeway and driving toward the Rio Grande which runs within 2 miles of the interstate in this portion of West Texas. The driver abandoned the truck after it became stuck in the river bed, escaping into Mexico. Agents called for reinforcement from the Texas state troopers and Hudspeth County sheriff and began unloading the haul – estimated to have been nearly 3 tons – when everything changed. Officers "started to retrieve the bundles when the armed subjects appeared," said Agent Ramiro Cordero, Border Patrol spokesman. According to Hudspeth County Chief Deputy Mike Doyal, the dump truck driver returned with armed men, some of whom drove "official looking vehicles with overhead lights." Some of those armed, Doyal told the El Paso Times, appeared to be Mexican soldiers in uniform with military weapons. As both sides faced off, a bulldozer appeared from the Mexico side of the river and was used by the armed men to pull the dump truck – and the two-thirds of the marijuana that had not yet been unloaded – into Mexico. The bulldozer, Doyal said, is believed to be used regularly to make makeshift crossings over the Rio Grande. Nov 2005
www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/border_war_mexican_troops_attack
_us.htm

The Mexican Army is now stationed in TEXAS and NEW ORLEANS. When any military brings food, it's for the MILITARY to eat, NOT the disaster victims. That's why a US sheriff is now on trial for stealing US military trucks filled with ice, to help the hurricane victims in his county.

www.minutemanhq.com

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:15 PM

Quote:
If we were to actively promote immigration, we would have to
a) change the laws to make them "legal" to work,
b) ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage: You can't read a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) or even "Hearing Protection Required" if you can't read English
c) understand their rights as workers...

...So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:

1) Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective. If that means build a wall, then build it.
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
3) Raise our Federal minimum wage. It's counterinutitive- you would think that a higher minimum wage would increase the "draw" into this country- but companies are simply not going to pay a non-English speaking person $9/ hour. And enforce it. If you find a company that violates the minimum wage law, drive them out of business with fines, put their (corporate) head on a pike by the city gates. The other will get the message.
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.
5) Take the current immigrees (Indian, Russian, Phillipine, Chinese) and give them English literacy tests and English classes. If they don't learn to speak the language at a rudimentary level in six months, boot them out.

The crux of your post SygnyM. I have a few things to point out about some of your points:

a.) "Change the laws to make them "legal" to work"

This basically gives illegal aliens a free pass into the U.S. without earning it. Something MANY legal immigrants do not appreciate or support is that our laws are such that the lawbreakers are getting ahead. Unless you're saying to broaden our current legal immigration capabilities, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm of the opinion that Ellis Island should never have been closed.

b.) "Ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage..."

Who's going to pay for this? Not only are illegal aliens ALREADY getting this benefit if they want it in many states, but many are instead fighting to make everything multilingual! It does drain state economies - are you saying you want to make this a Federal program?

c.) "Understand their rights as workers..."

Find me the money to try and enforce this. Many employers (to stay afloat) hiring illegal aliens do it under the table. Giving someone who isn't even a member of the country rights is the first step towards MORE abuse of the system.

1.) "Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective."

While I agree, the $$$$ for this is going to be ultra-expensive. Perhaps even more expensive than OIF, except it would be a yearly bill. At the moment I'm thinking we should privatize the Border Patrols to groups like the Minutemen as well as beefing up our ICE personnel.

2.) "Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely..."

Highly unlikely. Global economy = Global concern with politics, diplomacy, and military strategy. They all are tied together and it has been proven in U.S. history what happens when we try to take a more isolationist stance.

3.) "Raise our Federal minimum wage."

I wish you were joking. Raising the minimum wage will force MORE businesses, especially small businesses, to hire people (= illegal aliens) under-the-table since they couldn't pay for the insurance and wages of the average worker. Raising the minimum wage benefits Unions the most, small companies and minimum wage workers the least.

If we do as you say, many small businesses in America will go OUT of business, because they are the people most negatively affected by increasing minimum wage. And I'd love to know how to pay for the manpower it takes to enforce companies who hire cut-wage people.

4.) "Promote real international unionization."

I knew you were pro-Union, but these countries need to unionize themselves. There is a function for Unions (even here in the U.S.) and I think this is also another private investor matter, not a government problem.

I do agree that many 3rd-world countries need a couple unions to get their governments to grant basic worker's rights in their countries though. I believe Senegal and a few other countries are on their way to worker's rights -- it's just that the rest of the world needs to follow, which takes time.

5.) "Take the current immigrees (Indian, Russian, Phillipine, Chinese) and give them English literacy tests and English classes. If they don't learn to speak the language at a rudimentary level in six months, boot them out."

I say boot them out anyway, and when they come back legally, we make that as a requirement for Citizenship (if in fact it's not already).

Here's my bullets on how to possibly fix things:

- Increase LEGAL immigration slots by a factor of 10, or 20. Find a more controllable level, we let in way too few. I believe there are some tests legal immigrants have to take which already make them learn English and know our history. I've talked to enough legal immigrants to know that much.

- Build the wall and give people like the Minutemen the capability to turn illegal aliens back over to Mexico.

- While this will cost a lot of money, make the ICE a much bigger government organization. Having only two people to cover two states isn't nearly good enough (as in the Carolinas). Give them similar enforcement abilities as Cops, too.

- Keep a database (including pics and whatnot) of booked illegal aliens in order to keep track of them nationally. One thing that happens often is that deported illegals will come back in under a different surname. This will help catch them.

- Start an Illegal Alien internment camp where if they are caught and owe the government money (fines, taxes, etc), they work to pay it off. Basically it would be similar to efforts going on in Arizona now. If they owe something like $10,000, then they would work at minimum wage until they paid it off. A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.

You frakin' people [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
The words 'illegal' and 'legal' keep popping up here as if they were important or something.
What's 'legal' about destablizing a government and allowing the new DICTATOR you put in place to torture his people to death at a whim???
This is a nation of LAW BREAKERS. We bend the law till it breaks, then find the loopholes and the scapegoats. Peeps that don't see this are blind and/or stupid. What did Mal say?
"Chickens come home to roost."
Oh, that's right, no real messages in the show and movie we all love; it's just entertaining action, right?
We f**k with the world, and expect no ramifications, 'cause that's our 'manifest destiny'.
How arrogant.

Quote:

"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

Strange socialist/humanist tag for this particular thread, huh?

You really need to READ Milagro's post above.

Breakin' it down for ya Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 5:45 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

www.rense.com

So with so few criminal Mexicans in Tennessee, why would TN Govt print its driver license handbook and tests in Spanish? Why would TN Govt sell 250,000 driver licenses to ILLEGAL aliens, without arresting and deporting them? Could it be... TREASON?! AND NOTE THE TERRORIST SUICIDE BOMBER EAGLE CARRYING A STICK OF TNT!

Quote:
Mexican illegal invaders plot Brown Out on Communist May Day in USA

Militant, seditious Mexican and Latin American organizations are calling for a "brown out" on May 1, 2006 (a pagan holiday). Illegals should stay home from work that day, a day that will allegedly "bring the American economy to its knees." Navito Lopez, president of the Mexican American (notice Mexican comes before American) Political Association said that one day without illegals working would "send a stern message to Washington." Hear! Hear! I say go for it! What arrogance. These jokers promoting this stop work day live in a dream world if they think a few million illegals skipping work for one day is going to even cause a ripple in our economy. If 50-75 million natural born Americans and legally naturalized citizens stopped work for one day, that would send a thundering message.

www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/30/105135.shtml?s=et
www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd181.htm

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 6:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The U.S. has a long-standing policy of destabilizing Latin American governments. All in the cause of bringing democracy to our neighbors...it has been an utter failure.

It did exactly what it was intended to do, so in that sense it was an utter success: It created lots and lot of poor people and kept the landowners, generalissimos and corporate interests in power and put nations into debt bondage

Quote:
Look at the result in Chile, Paraguay, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, to name a few.

I could add Russia, Iran, Afghanistan, and Indonesia. As Citizen said- capitalism at work!

Quote:
Instead of military intervention and political subterfuge, perhaps we could have invested in Latin America instead of exploiting it for cheap labor. Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal. So what now? I'm sorry to say, I think the arguments many of you are making are desparate ones. Too little, too late. Where were you when Trujillo was using the Dominican Republic as his personal playground and murdering anyone who looked at him the wrong way? How about when Pinochet's minions were throwing tires over people (los quemados) and burning them alive?

Umm... in early high school? Why not bring up the Contras? I was protesting at that time. Anyway, there is no special realtionship between the US and Latin America. The USA has fucked over the whole world. The only resaon why there are so many Latinos here is because it's easier to walk or hop a train than to catch a ride in a cargo container.

I sense some happy revenge in your post: the US has been a bad neighbor and deserves to get overrrun by the poor people that it has created. Well, maybe some of us deserve to be pitted at the bottom of the barrel against each other because of sheer stupidity, laziness and corruption... but not all of us. You make the same mistake that you accuse others of making: prejudicial generalization. And in the end, who wins? Not you. Not me. Only the very, very wealthy.

So, how do we fix the situation? The guest worker program that Bush proposes is indentured servitude to the corporations. Is THAT what you want?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.
You frakin' people make me laugh.
The words 'illegal' and 'legal' keep popping up here as if they were important or something.

They ARE important to ME. But I guess I'm one of these so-called idiots who played by the rules and got ahead. Just like millions of legal immigrants, and just like millions of Americans.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What's 'legal' about destablizing a government and allowing the new DICTATOR you put in place to torture his people to death at a whim???

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a nation of LAW BREAKERS. We bend the law till it breaks, then find the loopholes and the scapegoats. Peeps that don't see this are blind and/or stupid. What did Mal say?
"Chickens come home to roost."
Oh, that's right, no real messages in the show and movie we all love; it's just entertaining action, right?
We f**k with the world, and expect no ramifications, 'cause that's our 'manifest destiny'.
How arrogant.

Ok, so let's be isolationist then. All that will happen is World War III, since World War I and II we tried to also stay out of until all our friend countries came crying for help or we got attacked ourselves. We are a part of the world, and in that case we have a role to play. I kind've like being the Big dude on the block protecting others.

One thing is very true though - this illegal alien issue is a direct ramification of our society being the richest, spoiled rotten, corrupt one on the face of the Earth. I'd love to hear some ideas from you as to how to fix it.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
Strange socialist/humanist tag for this particular thread, huh?

You really need to READ Milagro's post above.

Breakin' it down for ya Chrisisall

Speaking of arrogant -

Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read (which SygnyM just broke down beautifully), then telling me you "broke it down" for me tells me all I need to know about your arrogant opinion of me.

My signature is all about how a group of people take something real and make a fantastic tale out of it... so fantastic hardly any of the tale is true. Making heros out of criminals is absurdly funny to me... kind've why I'm laughing right now about your post, Chrisisall.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 10:34 PM

Quote:
Start an Illegal Alien internment camp where if they are caught and owe the government money (fines, taxes, etc), they work to pay it off. Basically it would be similar to efforts going on in Arizona now. If they owe something like $10,000, then they would work at minimum wage until they paid it off. A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.

Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me, are you serious did you really say internment camp, You can't be serious??? that sounds like something a Nazi would say, you would really like to see people in an internment camp?

The answer is real simple..its so simple its almost ridiculous..penalize the businesses that hire them, fine them and take them to court, I see you constantly making excuses for businesses when its their fault this is happening. if some people go out of business OH well too bad!!, if there has to be some casualties in all of this I would rather see some businesses take the fall, in the long run we'll all be better off.

and raising the mininum wage would be an excellent idea, all they have to do is raise the price of goods and services which I also think is an excellent idea, Americans consume way to much anyway it wouldn't hurt us a bit to conserve and consume less.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 1:27 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.

Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.

There's more.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 3:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Addition to my response to Milagro:

But to answer your question about the reaction to an influx of Dutch v an influx of Latinos (and how this demonstrates that USAers don't like "brown" people): I suspect that the problem is not "race" but class and culture. If the USA were to be inundated with the middle class of any country that believes and behaves as the middle class does here, it would be better tolerated. The problem is that MOST immigrees are poor, rural, relatively uneducated. If you think this isn't the case, look at the epithets against the Irish who were white and English speaking... but poor, uneducated, and rurral.

In addition, la mordita is a fixture of everyday life. And some immigrants seem to display an unwarranted sense of entitlement with just a smidge of vengeance. Who in their right mind would want to welcome people whose basic motivation seems to be "And chingada to you too"?

As far as making everything bi- or multi-lingual: A friend much smarter than I once said "There are no nations, just language groups." Here's one example: the borders of Poland (my heritage) have been drawn, redrawn, and even erased. Poland was ruled by foreign monarchies for many years. How do the Poles maintain their sense of identity? The language, of course. Then look at Canada. They have had no end of troubles with the Quebecois. India has over 400 languages, and China has about a dozen, but each nation has an "official" language which everyone must learn.

So, I would add one more point to my list of solutions: Make English the official language of the USA, with exceptions for the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 3:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:

Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read

I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."

And if you're serious about internment camps, well, then I won't take up any more of your time. Your copy of Mein Kamph is waiting.
(Okay, I got my jab in; I just hope you're NOT serious...)

Scapegoating folk is the first step towards being a good Nazi Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The problem is that MOST immigrees are poor, rural, relatively uneducated. If you think this isn't the case, look at the epithets against the Irish who were white and English speaking... but poor, uneducated, and rurral.

And look how our society has suffered from those rowdy drunken micks. No Lucky Charms, that bunch.
(Half Irish m'self, just goofing)

Quote:

Who in their right mind would want to welcome people whose basic motivation seems to be "And chingada to you too"?

Okay, that's a point of solid agreement with me.
There's no easy answer to the problem of human garbage. It exists worldwide.

Legalize drugs and take the wind out of the drug trade. Give gangs no reason to fight or exist?
Life in prison to all who commit a crime of violence or use a gun?
Make prostitution legal and cut the legs out from under the slave-sex industry?

....just rambling....

I do agree about the national language thing tho Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.

Citizen, you're the only one who understands my full meaning.
(Me and my wife and son will be on flight 0071 landing in London tomorrow at 6am, can you meet us under the plane (baggage) and sneak us to your place? I want to illegally immigrate to the land of tea and biscuits to find my fortune...)

Code name: Dinsdale Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 6:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm not of mixed minds on illegal immigration (it's illegal) but on the solution. What I'm casting about for is a solution that improves everyone's life. Unfortunately, while the solution will require that the USA stop supporting dictatorships abroad (whether they be military or corporate), promote a middle class at home, secure the borders and promote a common language (Chris, let's talk!) the only "solutions" that our money-corrupted Congress is likely to vote for are the ones that put illegals into corporate indentured servitude. And they'll gut the middle class by using the survival fears of the middle class itself.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
promote a middle class at home, secure the borders and promote a common language

Good ideas, but I'm afraid they're hard at work making sure the middle class is dismantled,
securing borders must be shown to be profitable in some immediate way, and a common language would be something that would help make 'them' more a part of 'us', and governments like having a 'them' nearby, in case a problem arises that needs blame assigned.
Progressive government will help, if it comes. Hell, conservative government would help, but not the whatever-it-is-we-have-now government.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 7:08 AM

PENGUIN

I found this in the Opinion section of our "state" newspaper...

Kathleen Parker, Tribune Media Services.

I suspect that the sight of so many people demanding rights to which they have no legal claim will not help the cause of illegals in this country. Let's just say that convincing others of one’s desire to become an American citizen would be more effective if one were to do so in English – while waving an American flag. When in America, I always say, do as the Americans. Speak English. Otherwise, I’m over-the-top pro-Latino and pro-immigrant.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 11:01 AM

REAVERMAN

I agree with a lot of you guys, that illegal immigration is killing the U.S. I think that they are not American citizens, and, therefore, aren't entitled to the rights in the constitution. I also agree that we need to send them back.

The problem is that sending them all back and building a wall is a short term solution. In order to actually fix the problem, we need to fix the roots of the problem. Over the last century, the U.S. has interfered in the affairs of South and Central America intending to destroy their economies, and keep them weak and reliant on the U.S. and it's corporations. More recently, the U.S. has used the World Bank's International Monetary Fund (IMF) as a front for this meddling.

The IMF has succeeded. One example of their success is Argentina. Argentina was once one of the fastest growing economies in South America. They were also one of the wealthiest. Then they took an IMF loan, and the rest is history. The IMF, as part of the terms of their loan, forced Argentina to cancel all public works programs, health benefits, retirement benefits, welfare, etc... In 18 months, Argentina went through five different governments, each one overthrown because it was still saddled with the debt, and still unable to pay under the IMF's terms. The Method has worked so well, that, now, the rest of Latin America is in poverty also. They are reliant on the U.S.'s corporations to develope, and run their industries. The IMF, however, didn't realize what the blowback from this manipulation would be. That blowback has come in the form of a massive wave of immigration, illegal and legal as people flee from unstable and poor conditions.

Only by fixing what the IMF has done, can we really solve this crisis. If you want to read about how the U.S. has really manipulated the world to serve its own ends, you should read The Sorrows of Empire, by Chalmers Johnson. It is very extensive in its coverage of U.S. global activity, and, best of all, it's backed up by real, honest-to-God facts, unlike the delusional, vaguly fact-like material that PN keeps pulling out of his pi-gu.

I would advise you to pick it up soon. It has started to disappear from most bookshelves lately.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 11:30 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

USA's first official flag
www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html

Here's progress: US schools all over USA ban US flags...

Quote:
Schools Ban Patriotic Clothes, Flags

NBC
April 6 2006

SAN DIEGO -- In the wake of last week's immigration-reform protests, one school district is taking drastic measures, banning all symbols of patriotism, both U.S. and Mexican.

Beginning Monday, the Oceanside Unified School District is banning all flags and patriotic clothing.

Keith Brentlinger displays the U.S. flag outside Hatter, Williams and Purdy, his Oceanside business.

"To me, it's everything," said Brentlinger "I mean, like I said -- we truly live in the greatest country in the world."

Brentlinger said he was shocked on Tuesday when marching immigration-reform protesters tore down the flag outside his business.

"Some of them just grabbed the flag, and pulled it off its aluminum pole, and it got ripped," said Brentlinger.

Brentlinger told NBC 7/39 that he put up a new flag the next day.

"Some protesters drove up in their car and snagged the flag from our building and took off," said Brentlinger. "I was extremely, extremely upset. I mean, it was just ... insulting is the word."

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: US FLAGS DESTROYED BY ILLEGAL ALIENS, US SCHOOL BANS US FLAGS
www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html

Flag waving banned at Colo. school

News 14
Charlotte, North Carolina
4/1/2006

LONGMONT, Colo. -- Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag — as well as flags from other countries — amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.

Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown into the face of another student.

www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=116833

Marshall County School Officials Ban US Flags From Parades

Wave 3 TV
April 1, 2006

BENTON, Ky - Flags bearing stars and bars are a common sight during this western Kentucky town's Tater Day festivities.

But the Confederate flag -- and any other flag for that matter -- will no longer be welcome in the Marshall County High School parking lot when students drive to school and hold parades during the festivities.

Senior Raeanne McKendree, 18, said she supports the rule and thinks most other students at the school agree with it.

"You don't have freedom of speech at school," she said. "The school should be able to prevent it, just like they tell us not to wear certain T-shirts or say certain words."

In Arizona, a school superintendent banned students from wearing flags of any kind in any form after a group of Hispanic students at the school took down the American flag from a pole, raised the Mexican flag, then watched as white students took it down and burned it.

In Colorado, dozens of high school students protested a temporary ban on flags amid racial tensions following immigration rallies. One school official said the symbols were being used as "misguided patriotism."

www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=4712745

Funny how Gangsta Govt wants to crush "misguided" patriotism and free speech... Funny how some students in the mind-kontrol slave camps agree with that scam, especially those who are officers in "student govt". I was VP of my freshman class in college, elected in an actual election. When disabled by Gulf War Sabotaged Vaccine and Nuke Radiation Syndrome, I went back to college, but ELECTIONS WERE BANNED, replaced by "appointed student govt" who "applied" for an "interview". Appointed members of student "govt" then got 2 weeks of intense brainwashing at a "summer camp", before they were allowed to "represent" the students. I wonder if they were forced to worship Molech and perform "mock" human sacrifice, like the Bushes do at Bohemian Grove?

Will Pre 1776 flag be the new US flag under NAFTA, now that USA is officially merged with Canada which is a member of the British Commwealth under the Queen and her Communist British Empire?
proudflag.com/yank/flag_grandunion.jpg
www.foundingfathers.info/American-flag/Grand-Union.html
www.proudflag.com/yank/usaflag.htm

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

Benjamin Franklin's woodcut from May 9, 1754. In 1751, he wrote a satirical commentary in his Pennsylvania Gazette suggesting that as a way to thank the Brits for their policy of sending convicted felons to America, American colonists should send rattlesnakes to England. Three years later, in 1754, he used a snake to illustrate another point. This time not so humorous. Franklin sketched, carved, and published the first known political cartoon in an American newspaper. It was the image of a snake cut into eight sections. The sections represented the individual colonies and the curves of the snake suggested the coastline. New England was combined into one section as the head of the snake. South Carolina was at the tail. Beneath the snake were the ominous words "Join, or Die." In the following months and years, as we know, the Sons of Liberty became increasingly resentful of English interference. And as the tides of American public opinion moved closer and closer to rebellion, Franklin's disjointed snake continued to be used as symbol of American unity, and American independence. For example, in 1774 Paul Revere added it to the masthead of The Massachusetts Spy and showed the snake fighting a British dragon.

First Navy Jack - This flag is believed to have flown aboard the Continental Fleet's flagship Alfred, in January, 1776. This flag or one of it's variations was used by American ships throughout the Revolution. Today, the only US Navy ship authorized to fly this flag is the aircraft carrier, U.S.S. Kitty Hawk.
http://64.235.34.221/CSVA/Stars_Bars/dtomjack.htm

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 4:13 PM

MILAGROBEAN

We are all children of war....I harbor no sense of revenge, suffering is suffering everywhere. You are reading me incorrectly. I am stating the facts as I see them, sitting in a different seat then you are. I have not accused anyone of anything. And nowhere did I say that the US deserves a fate worse than death. Aren't you tired of being afraid? I am.

I don't agree that there is no special relationship between US and Latin America. Latin America has been the US's backyard. The US government has treated sovereign nations as colonies with the justification that what is done is done in the best interests of the US. A banana republic, a phrase that has floated in and out of my awareness, is a republic that exists to keep the colonial powers supplied with all those good things we can't imagine now doing without. I was doing some reading on FDR's "Good Neigbor" policy and found an address he gave on Pan-American day in 1933 and another speech he gave the same year: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/fdrgnp.htm

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/fdrwwcomm.htm

Then, these photos of the Roosevelts with dictators and corrupt leaders of Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic and Cuba: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/good-neighbor.htm

Food for thought....

Today I thought, we all could take to the streets, banging pots, shouting "we're taking our country back" and along with that, show solidarity with all people who want to be free from suffering, free to work, and put food on the table and have a few little dreams come true. Daydream of a poet...I like it better than a wall. Below, a link on "si se puede"
http://www.labornet.org/viewpoints/meister/sisepuede.htm

Don't know how we're going to fix it...the past is the past, still one must understand how we got here. We ARE the Americas.

milagrobean

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 6:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:
Start an Illegal Alien internment camp where if they are caught and owe the government money (fines, taxes, etc), they work to pay it off. Basically it would be similar to efforts going on in Arizona now. If they owe something like $10,000, then they would work at minimum wage until they paid it off. A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.

Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me, are you serious did you really say internment camp, You can't be serious??? that sounds like something a Nazi would say, you would really like to see people in an internment camp?

The answer is real simple..its so simple its almost ridiculous..penalize the businesses that hire them, fine them and take them to court, I see you constantly making excuses for businesses when its their fault this is happening. if some people go out of business OH well too bad!!, if there has to be some casualties in all of this I would rather see some businesses take the fall, in the long run we'll all be better off.

and raising the mininum wage would be an excellent idea, all they have to do is raise the price of goods and services which I also think is an excellent idea, Americans consume way to much anyway it wouldn't hurt us a bit to conserve and consume less.

First point: It's not a "fascist" or "Nazi" thing to find a way to enforce the current laws of this country. I'm hardly alone with this idea, and pretty much all the people who want illegals to pay their taxes and fines are hard-working paying citizens. If I didn't already know how much it costs to have prisons, I wouldn't have said internment camps. In all actuality, I'd rather they serve community service to pay back the taxes/fines owed, but alas, I said internment camps, then next step up. Why? Because illegal immigrants would more likely (and have a track record of) skipping probation.

Second point... It is businesses which hire illegals that are part of the problem, to be sure. So, get rid of the illegals and bring in the legals, and then business can stay out of court more often. Some businesses are completely MADE of illegal aliens too - get rid of them with heavy fines, that I'll agree with. Goods and services are going to go up anyway, and they'll go up even more if thousands of businesses have to show up in court. I'd rather thousands of illegal aliens show up in court.

Third point... Raising the minimum wage is not a good idea unless you're talking about starting a sort of index system based directly off inflation. Mainly, raising the minimum wage will have little to no effect overall to the brunt of the work force... except for unions. Why? 'Cause unions make sure to have people's pay pro-rated for minimum wage. Non-union workers (the biggest slice of the work force) in general do not get pro-rating, and most of them also are already working for pay over minimum wage. Good luck finding a vast majority of CDC/nursing home workers and babysitters getting paid any more than what they normally get.

And dissing America for being capitalist... well what did you expect? Capitalism causes a consumerist society. Everyone wants freedom to consume.

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."

Not just some... quite a few. It is now estimated that somewhere between 25-30% of the illegal immigrants in this country - around 3-4 MILLION - are living off the arm. This is double that of the percentage of citizens who are on welfare - 14%. Who's the fat, lazy ones? Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.

And also, chew on this - you get rid of the illegal aliens, you open up jobs for the slobs. Approximately 8 million of them. It sounds worth it to me.

So yeah, I draw a line - it's called the U.S. border. And like I said just above, I'm not totally serious about internment camps, but how else is the U.S. gov't going to keep their $25 million a year from going to Mexico, Brazil, Russia, heck even New Zealand?

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.

Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.

There's more.

I'm sure there is, including the obvious ones... supporting both sides of the Iran-Iraq war of the early '80's and supporting a democratic government in Afghanistan in the '70's by supporting this political group call the Taliban.

It would be nice to have a crystal ball, but in all actuality it's probably that the U.S. supported what they thought was "the best of the worst." That's an excuse, really... there is no real excuse. I never said the U.S. government is innocent, which is why I'd more trust private investors... a little more. They at least don't have a giant military and have to negotiate.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

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Thursday, April 6, 2006 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:

Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read
I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."

And if you're serious about internment camps, well, then I won't take up any more of your time. Your copy of Mein Kamph is waiting.
(Okay, I got my jab in; I just hope you're NOT serious...)

Scapegoating folk is the first step towards being a good Nazi Chrisisall

Chrisisall you might want to take a look at Mexico's immigration policies, people who migrate to Mexico legal or illegal have virtually no right under the law, their immigration policy is very very strict, they won't allow even half the things or rights that we have here ..and yet you have their president Fox saying that Mexicans who come here should get citizen ship..if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government

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Friday, April 7, 2006 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government

Point taken.
All the more reason peeps would want to leave, though.

No answers Chrisisall

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Friday, April 7, 2006 8:35 AM