US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !! by AURaptor

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Wow.

When I read the title, I was going to say something like, "They probably don't want the Mexican government to be nervous about the accumulation of armed folks along the border."

But that's not it at all.

This is wicked weird and seems wrong to me. Is the Mexican government seriously demanding status updates on how illegal aliens are apprehended as they illegally cross the border?

If it is a concern for Mexico, one would think they'd... You know... Prevent the illegal border crossings.

And we are complying with this request?

It boggles the mind.

Can you say "We need to know how and when to get our mules across?"

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 11:19 AM

America loves a winner!

It does boggle the mind and I hope to hell that this doesn't get swept under the rug like Patrick Kennedy's DUI.

Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 1:37 PM

I hope we can all agree that, if there is violence committed against a citizen of Mexico, we should report who committed the violence to the Mexican consulate. So, leaving that part aside, that leaves us with the question of whether or not we should report to the Mexican consulate the involvement of non-Border Patrol people in the apprehension of Mexican citizens.

Link to original article (from the 9 May 2006 issue of the Daily Bulletin in Ontario, California): http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653

Links to the documents referenced in the article:
(11 April 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte1.htm
(4 May 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte2.htm
(2 August 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte3.htm

From the article, it sounds like there is an agreement in place that the Border Patrol will notify the Mexican consulate if a non-Border Patrol group is involved in the apprehension. But later in the article Border Patrol agents say they have been asked to report the location of all groups but not put the name of the group in the reports. So there's some ambiguity in my mind about exactly what information is being reported. The three reports that are referenced are status reports from mid 2005 on the activities in various states. Most of this information could be gleaned from news reports released by the groups themselves. About the only one that looks like it required a transfer of information from US to Mexican officials is the group at the end of the Daily Bulletin article. So, given that these documents have been around for more than half a year and can't be considered current, I have to wonder why the buzz now. It looks to me like these groups are ramping up for another round of trying-to-get-as-much-positive-media-attention-as-possible going in to the summer months.

Just some random notes:

Now that Chris Simcox has hired himself a DC based public relations firm and changed his wardrobe you have to figure that every statement out of his mouth is about as sincere and accurate as those made by DC politicians. He's come a long way from when he was claiming that Chinese troops were wearing Mexican uniforms and using American equipment along the border. (edited to add: At least back then you didn't doubt his sincerity, just his accuracy)

It looks like Jim Gilchrist, Minuteman founder and candidate for public office, had a "don't ask don't tell" policy for supremacists who worked on his campaign. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610

What these groups say on camera and off camera are, shockingly, two different things. A Phoenix TV station sent some reporters undercover and found that there may a bit more racism involved than organizers would like you to believe. http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=4830062 One of my favorite passages, "Members of Minuteman of One have a controversial M-O. They carry assault rifles when they're out on patrol, they don't hesitate to follow migrants or smugglers and they've been known to 'confiscate' food, water and the luggage they come across." Hey! To the victor go the spoils, baby. I can see the recruiting slogan now, "All the loot you can confiscate."

As always, the best place for learning about the ties between the Minutemen and white supremacist groups and the attempt to cloak their bigotry in terms more acceptable to mainstream America is at David Neiwert's place: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 1:41 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The Plan of San Diego was a treaty between the Germans and Mexico to invade USA during World War 1. Prescott Bush was arrested 3 times and paid a $750,000 forfeiture for arming Nazi Germany during World War 2. Jr Bush is 3rd cousin to the German Queen of England, who merged her Canadaian British Commonwealth with USA and Mexico via NAFTA SHAFTA slave contract. Bushes are by definition traitors to USA.

Forget the lies of our oppressive Kaballistic Allied Governments.
-Huckster, The Message

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!

AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.

Basically, I agree with your facts, but take issue with your tone. We must never forget that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be millions of illegal American immigrants fleeing across the border.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 2:05 PM

Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom. There are ways to talk about the illegal immigration problem without resorting to an appeal to nativism. Here's one: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/03/immigration-conundrum.html

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It does boggle the mind and I hope to hell that this doesn't get swept under the rug like Patrick Kennedy's DUI.

Well, if by swept under the rug you mean make the front page of a major newspaper, be on every news channel, and make every internet news site I frequent, like Kennedy was, I don't think it'll get that much coverage.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion Kennedy's wreck was "swept under the rug." It was everywhere; it got more coverage than the current 'Hookergate' is getting (bribery and political corruption involving prostitution is getting a pass? How is that even possible?).

Besides, Kennedy came forward, said he had a problem and needs help, and is getting treatment. That makes him a bad guy? The reason Rush gets demonized is that he won't do the same, after years of calling drug users the scum of the earth.

But wait, I forget - you come at it from the perspective that you can get drunk, shoot someone in the face, cover it up for 18 hours, then lie about it and still be the darling of the right. It's party over country with some of you.

Sorry for the threadjack, but I just don't get the extreme right's hypocrisy. Clinton was demonized for smoking pot in college; Bush gets a free pass for his coke use 'because it was in the past.' Rush is considered 'under attack' for his drug use (and comitting fraud), after he spent years calling for harsher penalties; Kennedy gets in an accident, admits he has a problem and seeks help - but he's the devil.

Help me out here.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 3:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I have flipped, flopped, and flipped on this issue and I can't honestly say that I won't flop again.

FLIP
On the one hand, I have sympathy for the immigrants. The one nation that we didn't invade or occupy (Costa Rica) is the one nation that's doing OK. So not only did we do a great job screwing Central and South America economically, we also made it impossible for their citizens to fix things internally.

FLOP
On the other hand, allowing illegals in for the benefit of business pretty much screws over our middle class as well. It's no different than Microsoft bringing in bunch of cheap Indian software engineers under B1/B2 visas. The presence of a large amount of cheap labor in ANY market will depress wages.

FLIP
But if illegals had some legal standing, they could oragnize into unions and be better able represent themselves.

FLOP
Except when it comes to issues like Federal and state minimum wages. Without political representation, the people most directly affected (minimum wage earners) will be unable to change policy.

FLIP
But if the minimum wage was raised, would it simply drive more people into the underground (nanny, day laborer) economy?

FLOP
On the other hand, many illegals are paying into a social security system that they will never draw from.

AND ALSO
What I find is that many immigrants are willing to work hard but are poorly trained. It tends to drive experts out of the business because nobody wants to pay for a job well done. So we have half-assed HVAC installations and half-assed auto repairs (I once got a car back with a loose tie rod). Even with the best of intentions it takes a generation or two to bring people up to a modern industiualized economy.

The other thing I find worrisome about the imported culture is the acceptance of day to day corruption. It's not the Bush & Co aren't corrupt, it's just that you don't have to pay off your neigborhood cop every day just to not get rousted. A friend's son went Mexico over spring break with a group of friends, and two of them were shaken down for money- one by the police and one by a club owner. $70 seems to be the going payoff.

I really don't know the answer altho I acknowledge it's a complicated issue.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom.

And I agree with you here. I think they are just racists who are getting away with it by calling themselves 'patriots.' It's nothing more than vigilantism anyway, and I think it's an amazing stroke of luck that nothing bad has happened yet with them.

One of these days they are going to run into drug runners, or have a mix-up with US border patrol agents, or (God forbid) Mexican agents, and someone's going to get killed. They want to play Rambo, and I worry that there's going to be consequences.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 3:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well, I have mixed feelings about the Minutemen.

When I first heard about them, I was certain that they would get themselves or someone else killed in short order. I was positive that they were racists looking for scapegoats and live targets.

However, the underwhelming reports of infractions by the Minutemen organization leads me to believe that they are either A) Largely Behaving themselves or B) Part of a conspiracy to conceal the truth about their Mexican border assassinations.

Well, there's just no evidence for B.

I've heard some laments that they put on camoflage and tour the border with Assault Rifles. Well, while it is legal to own and carry assault rifles, the tax on it is very expensive and the background check is a pain in the behind (For no good reason, as it takes very little time to check for Felonies in our electronic age), so I'll assume they are mostly carrying the civillian version of assault rifles. And so what? I can carry an AR-15 in my current state of residence and I can carry a pistol on my hip if I want. (God, I love Arizona!) Of course, I don't do these things because it tends to make people nervous. Point is, it's not illegal or even immoral to walk around armed.

So, what's the beef with the Minutemen? No assasinations of border crossers that I know of. No laws broken that I'm aware of. You'd think the news media would want to make such things public, as it'd be a juicy story.

Well, what about them being racist? I'm sure some of them are. I'm sure some of them aren't. I honestly think a good portion of them think that unlimited illegal immigration is 1) Criminal (which it is) and 2) Bad for the Economy (which it is.)

Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?

And I'd agree with you there... Except... There's this effective criminal deterrent called the Neighborhood Watch that is exactly the same thing. Concerned citizens who realize that the professionals can't or won't be everywhere, and who take a personal responsibility for ensuring the safety of their neighbors from criminal activity.

The main difference between the Neighborhood Watch and the Minutemen is that the Neighborhood Watch is typically encouraged and supported by Law Enforcement, while the Minutemen are condemned by Law Enforcement.

Which leads me to the next question... Why doesn't Customs set up a friendly relationship with a citizen assisted border watch agency so that they can get the volounteer manpower they need to watch the border adequately?

Sounds like that would be a Win-Win.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 4:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!

AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.

Basically, I agree with your facts, but take issue with your tone. We must never forget that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be millions of illegal American immigrants fleeing across the border.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

They're not MIGRANT workers. They're ILLEGALS. Sugar coat it all you want, but folks who come here w/ out any permission from the Gov't are here ILLEGALLY. Doesn't make them 'bad', 'evil' or 'inferior', but they are still illegal. And me pointing out that simple fact doesn't make me a 'racist' or a 'bigot'. I WANT more people to become Americans. America is a great place, and I want them to love it as much as I do, if not more. But how the hell can they respect this country when they ignored so many of it's basic laws?

You pass into Mexico w/ out the proper notification or proceedure, you'll end up in a Mexican jail. Do it twice, and you'll be there a VERY long time.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 4:12 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?

Anthony - Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country. It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.

Doesn't seem very professional to me.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 11:53 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom.

And I agree with you here. I think they are just racists who are getting away with it by calling themselves 'patriots.' It's nothing more than vigilantism anyway, and I think it's an amazing stroke of luck that nothing bad has happened yet with them.

One of these days they are going to run into drug runners, or have a mix-up with US border patrol agents, or (God forbid) Mexican agents, and someone's going to get killed. They want to play Rambo, and I worry that there's going to be consequences.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

Gee, what do you call the Mexican Americans, citizens who are also part of this effort ? Are 'they' racist too? There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'. The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country.

Lot's of things have been excused with this sort of statement. Few of them good.

Quote:
It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.
Doesn't seem very professional to me.

Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?

Quote:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities.

If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".

They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:38 AM

STILLFLYIN

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".

They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.

Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'.

Okay.
But the patrol also has drawn major interest on White supremacist Web sites and in their chat rooms. An Aryan Nation site links directly to the Minuteman Project home page with the words: "A call for action on part of ALL ARYAN SOLDIERS."

Whoops! How did that quote from an article get through your obvious Minuteman shield? Must have slipped across the border from reality-ville.

Quote:
The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?

According to regular law enforcement officials and actual, trained border agents - yes, yes it is.

The Border Patrol and other federal officials have asked civilians not to interfere with undocumented immigrants or law enforcement, saying they endanger themselves and others.

"When people act as vigilantes, they put themselves at risk, they put other law-abiding citizens at risk, and they put law enforcement at risk," he said. "It's not a nuanced issue here. We want citizens to assist law enforcement by calling in when they see a crime, by giving us information if they see suspicious activity. But no one in law enforcement, for example, is asking anyone to carry weapons into a bank and sit on a stool and wait for a bank robbery.

"That's the distinction here. These people are putting themselves and others in harm's way."

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/0305extremists05.
html

The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else.

{EDITED TO ADD: This was the post I referred to, by StillFlyin:

Quote:
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."

END EDIT}

So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:16 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else. So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways."

Sure you can, 7%. It's called judgement. You know, someone's f*cking dying, and even though the Prime Directive says to let them die, you just can't in good conscience sit there and let it happen. So you beam in an away team with blankets and food and hope you survive the Federation court-martial.

Didn't you learn anything from Star Trek?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:27 AM

Anthony, I know you were being partly facetious (and I did learn a lot from Trek - like how to mack on hot green women if any should ever show up at my door - assuming my wife gives the ok). But my bigger point is that even when offering aid, untrained professionals (just because some are retired military doesn't mean they know what they are doing in regards to dealing with the system or people) with guns could do more harm than good.

What if it's a gang faking a sick member to ambush them? The Minutemen have had several threats from Mexican cartels to do just that. What if they have a Rambo-type who sees a threat from someone (who may only be protecting a relative from babbling strangers who showed up with guns) and starts firing, killing an immigrant (and no, crossing the border should not be a death sentence, and you're morally bankrupt if you think it should be). What happens if confusion erupts and a minuteman is shot by Mexican agents, or Border Patrol agents by mistake? Lawsuit? For gettting yourself in the way of trained professionals doing their job?

So much could go wrong. Even if their motives were pure - which the case may be that it is for some if not most- there is too much room for disaster. That's why vigilantism is frowned upon.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by StillFlyin:
Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php

Do my homework, that's funny.

You seem to be under the mistaken belief I didn't know any of this. You also seem to be under the mistaken belief that some words on a website means anything to a bunch of tooled up locals.

So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...

Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:40 AM

MERCHANTMARINE1

You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you. Tax payer paid employees are failing and how many are in the country now? 11 million? I have left a response to the blog "illegal immigration", I find it hard to challenge their program when they have been threatend with machetes, rocks and assault rifles. The respondant a few back said she is glad to live in a state where you can carry a pistol on your hip and an assault rifle if you wish, well, the latest attack was near the california border by a california based watch group. California does not allow its citizens to carry guns and has a ban on all types of assault rifles. Please feel safe in that regards, citizens of California cannot. One respondant mentions the confiscation of personal items.. every on field news crew that video tapes the arrests, detainment and transport of captured illegals does not show any personal items being returned either. In fact, a cable news program aired a flight from the U.S. to a South American country with illegals captured. I did not see one leave the bus to the plane with a bag, and did not see one leave the plane with anything except hand cuffs and shackles. What is your point? I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse, if there is a problem, deploy the National Guard and Reserve instead of to Iraq, if the cost of transport is a problem, National Guard of that state or other states are called up and assist in the transport in military convoys. There are answers, but allowing the threat to continue: marches, demonstrations and increased border violence.

Merchantmarine1

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...

Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers."

Haha. Good one. For the record, I wouldn't go into the desert without a weapon. There's a lot of good reasons to carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)

I used to carry a pistol with me almost everywhere I went in South Florida. It was kept in a comically named 'Thunder Wear' holster rig under my jeans. You know, because sh*t happens, and I'll add 'have a gun' to my list of options when it does. In Florida, you can't carry a pistol on your hip, but in Arizona you can.

7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.

Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)

Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?

Bush isn't listening, and as President, this is HIS screw up - ROYALLY.

Quote:
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".

While you might want to hold to the picturesque image of family of Mexican migrant farmers, scurrying across the border with 3 generations of close knit, hard working, repressed folk looking for work, only to be oppressed by BIG BUSINESS, then being faced down by 'Bubba' and 'Tex' carrying their high powered rifles and sawed off shot guns....that's hardly the case. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops. I don't know about all the border states, but in Arizona, I believe carrying guns is perfectly legal. And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.

When you call it 'vigilantism, you have never shown more ignorance at any time while posting on FFF.net...and that's saying a lot.

Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)

Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble).

Quote:
7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.

Yes, I did point that out. But you missed my point, part of which was that having a gun in an already tense situation is likely to make things worse, not better. Flashing a pistol to show how 'safe' you are is not a smart way to ease tensions, especially if there is a language barrier.

Quote:
Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)
Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?

I'm not fond of it, frankly, because it promotes busybodying and vigilantism in a neighborhood setting. That's what cops are for. If I wanted my neighbors spying on me with binoculars, I'd buy them a pair myself. Know your neighbors, tell them who belongs and who doesn't, and you eliminate the need for a neighborhood watch.

There was just a news article on Fark (those of you that are Farkers know, as said before, that if you want to hate the human race, that's where to start looking for material) where people climbed a bridge to watch the sunset, and someone called out the emergency rescue trucks because they thought it was suicidal jumpers. They didn't bother to ask, didn't check it out, just interfered; now the couple has to pay a fine for the cost of their 'rescue,' which they didn't need. Busybodying without penalty; the caller should have had to pay the fine instead.

Just as in the quote I provided in a post above, just because you can doesn't mean you need to sit in a bank with a pistol waiting for robbers. That's what security is for, and that's what cops are for. Might you prevent a robbery? Certainly. Might you also create a situation where innocents are killed because of you? Again, certainly.

As far as differences between them and Minutemen are concerned, I'm not sure there are that many. Bunch of racists acting beyond the law trying to keep the neighborhood 'pure.' Meh.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops.

So the answer to stopping violent, armed criminals that may be coming across is to put untrained civilians in between them and the people that are actually trained to stop them? Smart play. Reminds me of the South Park movie, "Operation Darkie Shield." What a great plan! It's a miracle then that nobody's been killed yet.

Quote:
And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.

Stop yourself here and ask a simple question: "Why might the government be telling Mexican gov't agents where minutemen are?" Answer, they may be working in conjunction with Mexican agents/officials in undercover operations, involving letting certain people across, and a bunch of hicks that think they're helping might get in the way of catching real crooks. Took me 2 seconds to come to that logical conclusion, but no one else thinks to ask that question?

Quote:
Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!

Well, we can agree on something!

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you.

I did, and they are. And I won't say thanks, because I care what is done in my name. And groups with ties to the Klan and to Aryan Nation are not groups I want representing America (and with that, me, by proxy) at our borders.

Quote:
I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse,

I care a lot, and so do many others. There's a reason decent people don't take money or gifts from Nazis or criminals; that's because no matter how beneficial it appears on the surface, there's always the taint of hate on it. No thanks.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble)."

Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.

Well, guess what?

1) Binocular range is engagement range.

2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.

3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.

4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon. Bad policy. Whether or not you're planning to be in the vicinity of criminals (which illegal immigrants ARE.)

And finally...

I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.

You don't like the Neighborhood Watch, and that's fine. You think the Minutemen might do as much harm as good, and that's fine, too.

If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo. It then becomes a matter of personal taste and opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.

Well, guess what?

1) Binocular range is engagement range.

If you aren't a trained professional, with a badge/patch/ID/whatever, you shouldn't even be in binocular range, in MY opinion. I commented on what it supposedly says in THEIR OWN manifesto, according to what StillFlyin posted.

Quote:
2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.

And in a situation of limited visibility, it's that much easier for the minutemen to get into trouble. Again, they don't need to be in the area.

Quote:
3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.

Yes, you might, and yes, they might be. Yes, I agree that it's a great thing to be a good samaritan. But AGAIN, their own manifesto says that in those situations, they are not to provide aid, they are to call in trained personnel. What are they doing going in then, and armed?

Quote:
4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon.

Didn't miss it. Ignored it as irrelevant. I'm from the southwest originally, and I know how the terrain is. Having a small pistol to deal with snakes or coyotes is a lot different than having a rifle and patrolling for 'criminals.' I wouldn't go into the wilderness without a weapon either, but when I go into the wilderness I'm not hunting people.

Quote:
I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE PATROLLING! They aren't law enforcement personnell, which makes them vigilantes. If they had badges, they'd have a legitimate purpose for being there; they don't, so they don't. It's why we have special people who get to drive special trucks marked 'Border Patrol,' and we give them special toys like handcuffs and walkie-talkies.

Quote:
If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo.

Currently they are not hurting anything, but what do we do when they do? When the first one gets killed, or they screw up a clandestine operation? What do we do then? Go "whoops, well I guess that didn't work out!"? By then it'll be too late. We have law enforcement for a reason, not the least of which is a safety issue for our own citizens.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:47 AM

LYSCAT

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!

AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

Well, America has changed. I mean when immigrants come here they should have a little more respect for the the bases in which this country was built upon. How many Americans sacrificed their lives through the years so that Americea could be what it's become?

Slowly, things are changing. I mean not having the pledge of Allegience at school anymore? How many years before us were our parents and grandparents saying that? No one ever complained too much.

I do have more poignant facts to argue, but my mind seems to be fried today. Maybe another time...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immagration and America being the 'promised land,' but I just don't think that America should lose it's identity.

----------------------
May the feas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who has ruined your day, and may their arms be too short to scratch~Anonymous

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:10 AM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

I was starting to smell "conspiracy wacko" but as I was reading this first couple of posts...Fox News also broke the story.

~~~~~

"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:25 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".

Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )

*******************************************

Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:30 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
I was starting to smell "conspiracy wacko" but as I was reading this first couple of posts...Fox News also broke the story.

~~~~~

"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

"Conspiracy whacko" ? Ouch, you doth wound me, UnregisteredCompaion. I leave such whacko post for the likes of Piratenews. This is simply how it is. I still hope there's some big mix up, but so far, the word from the Gov't hasn't been reassuring.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LysCat:
I mean not having the pledge of Allegience at school anymore? How many years before us were our parents and grandparents saying that? No one ever complained too much.

They still say it where I teach. We say it every morning, with the bulletin. Almost all schools in my area do. This is one of those 'War on Xmas' issues that when one school does it, it's "Oh no, we're becoming unglued!"

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immagration and America being the 'promised land,' but I just don't think that America should lose it's identity.

America's identity is about immigration and racial mixing. Does "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ring a bell?

Sorry if I'm snarky, but for some reason this thread has me wound up today. What's weirder, is the more I argue, the more I'm coming down on the side I wasn't even sure I agreed with when I started today. Go figure.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:41 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"THEY SHOULDN'T BE PATROLLING!"

You know what... I've got to agree with you.

First, let's make a new law that says that non-law-enforcement personnel aren't allowed within X miles of the border, and that anyone caught within this perimiter is to be arrested.

Then, let's enforce this law. Let's hire thousands of patrolmen to enforce the border policy. We'll call them... The Border Patrol. That's catchy. They probably ought to be a subdivision of the Department for Homeland Security, perhaps directed by Customs.

Then we'll finance this new agency and give them whatever support they need to catch those lawbreakers who violate the border zone. With this program in place, violations of the Border Zone would be reduced, and a safer climate would be had by all.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:51 AM

Deal. I'm all for it. As a matter of fact, why don't we train some of our Guard to work as border patrol agents. To me, THAT is an effective way to handle the problem. We'd probably have the budget for it if we weren't mishandling the 'War On A Concept,' but that's another issue entirely.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"why don't we train some of our Guard to work as border patrol agents?"

That strikes me as a blazingly good idea, especially since it SOUNDS like the National Guard is meant to Guard our Nation, and patrolling the border seems a good way to do that.

You could easily divide up the thousands of National Guardsmen into small groups of 4 men led my a Customs/Border Patrol officer. Then they could patrol the border in force and with effectiveness.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LysCat:
Well, America has changed. I mean when immigrants come here they should have a little more respect for the the bases in which this country was built upon.

If it came down to obeying the laws of a foreign nation, or giving you and your childrren the opportunity to live a better life, which would you choose? I too think they should respect the law, but I understand why they don't.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Doesn't make them 'bad', 'evil' or 'inferior', but they are still illegal. And me pointing out that simple fact doesn't make me a 'racist' or a 'bigot'.

I know it doesn't make you racist. I never said it did.

Quote:
I WANT more people to become Americans. America is a great place, and I want them to love it as much as I do, if not more. But how the hell can they respect this country when they ignored so many of it's basic laws?

I agree with you that they should learn to love or at least respect this country. But once again, I'll ask the question: Laws, or a better life for you and/or your family?

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Gee, what do you call the Mexican Americans, citizens who are also part of this effort ? Are 'they' racist too? There's nothing RACIST about this in the least.

"Nothing racist about this in the least"? Ha! That's funny! It seems fairly obvious that some of them are racist. I understand that many of them (maybe even the majority of them) are not racists, but there are bound to be some. The Minutemen are a perfect opportunity for a hardcore racist. You can descriminate without worrying about the consequences. You can carry a gun. But most of all, you get to help stop Mexicans from entering the country. The group wasn't founded for a racist cause, but it is compatible with some racists' goals.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
When you call it 'vigilantism, you have never shown more ignorance at any time while posting on FFF.net...and that's saying a lot.

Actually its your ignorance, but that's par for the course. I realise you probably don't know what vigilantism means though, so do you need me to quote the dictionary or go straight to drawing the inevitable picture for you?

Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border.

Quote:
Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )

Well golly gee there big 'A', would that be them folks that have decided to take that there law into there own hands by raisin' a posse?

Gee, what's this? On their own website they say strictly no contact with immigrants.

They can't be following their own rules huh.

Someone's going to get killed and the only people to blame will be them, running around with guns getting in the way of violent and desperate criminals and the proper authorities.

"You're running around with guns, what did you think was going to happen."

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I realise you probably don't know what vigilantism means though, so do you need me to quote the dictionary or go straight to drawing the inevitable picture for you?

Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border."

Whatever you think of the idea of vigilantes, or the Minutemen, or the Neighborhood Watch, or the Guardian Angels, or anyone else...

Let me set you straight on something.

Vigilante is a Spanish word with Latin roots.

It means 'Watchman.'

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
That strikes me as a blazingly good idea, especially since it SOUNDS like the National Guard is meant to Guard our Nation, and patrolling the border seems a good way to do that.

You could easily divide up the thousands of National Guardsmen into small groups of 4 men led my a Customs/Border Patrol officer. Then they could patrol the border in force and with effectiveness.

Now call me a loony but given the choice between a tooled up untrained citizen and a trained national guard patrol I'd go with the patrol.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:18 PM

It comes from the latin Vigil.

But for all your wanting of it to mean the night watchmen of Rome (Vigiles Urbanus) that's not what it means.

# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

# self-appointed doer of justice.

Vigilante group:
A group organized without government authority to enforce its own concept of law and order or to advance its own interests outside the established process of law.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/100-20/10020gl.
htm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:19 PM

I'm just catching up on the explosion in posts on this thread so these comments are more in the way of generalizations rather than directed at specific points.

To me, the Minutemen are not so different from gangs who use the threat of violence to intimidate and harass those who are weaker than them. You get no points in my book for going after those who got a shorter end of the stick than you did. Especially not if part of the motivation stems from a belief that Americans should look a certain way and that those who do not are less deserving of basic human rights. The Minutemen are taking the easy way out. Picking on the stragglers, so to speak, instead of going after the strong. If they were really serious about reforming our immigration policies they would be filing lawsuits against corporations, leading boycotts of various industries, lobbying for an increase in the wages paid to workers in certain fields (and accepting the increase in prices that would follow), etc. In other words, going after the most powerful root causes for our immigration problems. But no, it's always easier to kick down than up. ETA: Especially if you believe the ones you are kicking are less human because of the color of their skin.

Our first Minutemen stood up to the most elite army in the world. Today's Minutemen target some of the most disadvantaged people on this continent. Heroes? Bullshit.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:37 PM

What the Minutemen say to the media and what they say when they think the media aren't around are two different things. First and foremost this is a publicity stunt. So I would be surprised if they actually put something on their website that was representative of what they thought or what they planned on doing. If you have the time, I recommend reading some of the articles written by those who have gone undercover. I linked to a report from a TV station in Phoenix further up the thread. Here's a report from the Southern Poverty Law Center (an organization that monitors hate groups): http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557 .

ETA: This is in regards to StillFlyin's post quoting from the Minuteman website.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"It comes from the latin Vigil.

But for all your wanting of it to mean the night watchmen of Rome (Vigiles Urbanus) that's not what it means.

# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

# self-appointed doer of justice.

Vigilante group:
A group organized without government authority to enforce its own concept of law and order or to advance its own interests outside the established process of law.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/100-20/10020gl.
htm"

Well, if that's the definition you're using...

Then the Minutemen don't qualify. They don't take law enforcement into their own hands. They don't enforce their own concept of law and order.

They observe and report. Or am I mistaken? Have they been lynching Mexicans and summarily executing them? I hadn't heard.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT
Well, if that's the definition you're using...

And what definition do you expect me to use, other than the one that everyone uses and understands? Your's seems to be an attempt at spin.

As for the rest: vigilantes are exactly what they are, they've taken it upon themselves, in the absence (this may be perceived or actual) of professionals to do the job of the border patrol, who enforce the law.

Their doing the job of professionals whose job it is to enforce the law:
# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

# self-appointed doer of justice.

Both fit quite well.

From Soupcatchers website:

Quote:
"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."

Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled "American bad asses" in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols.
...
Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late '90s, when shifts in U.S. border control policies transformed the high desert region into the primary point of entry for Mexico's two most valuable black market exports, drugs and people.

But the Minuteman Project raised the stakes with a highly publicized national recruiting drive followed by a campaign of deceitful media manipulation.

In fact a fair few posts here call them Vigilantes to. They have options in a democratic government for ensuring the law is upheld by those duly appointed to do so; they chose to run around on the border with guns that makes them...

Vigilantes.

When I first heard about this story (a few days before this thread) I felt unsettled about it. Funnilly enough the more people try to convince me that it's a good thing and the more I learn on the subject the more my initial reaction is confirmed.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 3:44 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"And what definition do you expect me to use, other than the one that everyone uses and understands? Your's seems to be an attempt at spin.

As for the rest: vigilantes are exactly what they are, they've taken it upon themselves, in the absence (this may be perceived or actual) of professionals to do the job of the border patrol, who enforce the law."

Sorry, but your definition still doesn't work. Unless you can find me references to the Minutemen enforcing the law? You know, like a news article that says, "Member of the Minutemen organization was arrested today for capturing illegal immigrants, handcuffing them, and etc." Have they been running down border-crossers and arresting them? I hadn't heard.

Have they been murdering border-crossers? Again, I haven't heard.

Have they been doing something other than observe-and-report? I haven't heard.

Let me be clear. If the Minutemen break the law, they should be arrested.

If they are observing crimes and reporting them to law enforcement, then they aren't enforcing the law. They're reporting crime to law enforcement. That is the duty of any citizen who witnesses a crime. It's not illegal. And it's not vigilantism. Not by YOUR definition.

However, if Observing illegal border crossing and Reporting that to the authorities is what you mean by vigilantism...

Then you are using MY definition. The one you don't like. The one that doesn't have people conducting illegal arrest, seizure, assault, or imprisonment.

So, help me out here. Are the Minutemen breaking the Law or not? Are they taking the law into their own hands? Or are they telling law enforcement about crimes being committed?

Which is it?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:04 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

SUCKERNOMICS

U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols
www.dailybulletin.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp
?article=3799653

Let's see, the Jews who own and control USA illegally order wideopen borders via NAFTA, WTO and United Nations Corporation, and accuse as "racist vigilante" any US citizen who opposes their treasonous illegal scam. The Jewish Hispanics who control Mexico illegally tell their Mexican citizens that USA belongs to Mexico and that USA should be invaded and destroyed.

The ZioNazi Jews in USA steal billions of US taxdollars to give to Israel (the most racist government on Earth), to build its apartheid wall INSIDE Israel, to make its Palestinian citzens into impoverished slaves inside their own nation. But those same Jews violently oppose a wall for USA to guard its external border.

This is also the goal inside USA, not with walls, but with NAFTA Highways that BYPASS entire US cities, to bring ALL citizens and manufactured products from Mexico, Central America and South America to overthrow USA.

Even the newspapers in Jewish Israel proudly compare their wall to the Jewish Communist Berlin Wall (very large graphic file):
newspagedesigner.com/users/4026/israelwall.jpg

Quote:
THE JERUSALEM BETHLEHAM WALL

Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
http://easycarts.net/ecarts/CounterPunch/CP_Books.html

www.unimaps.com/historic-israel-palestine3/

Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm

www.unimaps.com/historic-israel-palestine3/

Israel's goal in building the wall appears threefold; one, confiscation of land and water for future expansion of the West Bank colonisation, two, unilaterally redraw geopolitical borders, and three, encourage the exodus of Palestinians by denying them the ability to earn a living from their land.

Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people adequate water resources and restrict their movements to to such an extent as to make living in their village an unviable option.

The World Court in the Hague in July 2004 announced it's verdict that the wall is illegal and must go. A victory for the Palestinians, but the decision will most likely be ignored by Israel.

Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm

Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm

"From the time of King Solomon to our very days the Holy Land was either united with Trans-Jordan or attached to Syria or Turkey. Western Palestine was never a single and independent entity and certainly a part of that cannot possibly constitute an independent state, as envisaged in the various plans that are discussed from time to time. However, the basic reason for our opposition to an Independent Jewish state as that in prevailing circumstances the officially recognised representation of the Jewish people does not consider the authority of the Holy Law as binding in the public affairs of the Jewish people, and it is contrary to the wishes of G-d to create a Jewish State."
-Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, STATEMENT TO THE U.N. SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE, July 16, 1947
Jews Against Zionism
www.jewsagainstzionism.com

Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/012304_israels_wall_and_why_its_
not_a.htm

Semite.
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and ARABS - b : a descendant of these peoples - 2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.
-Merriam Webster Dictionary

I give the racist Jews of Israel/Palestine full credit for knowing how to use civil engineering to build a wall. USA should build an exact copy on the Mexican and Canadian borders. The Jews ARE building similar walls inside USA to keep the Christians and Arabs in their place - in Concentration Camps for "Hate Crimes", with legislation pending EVERY YEAR in US Senate, thanks to the "Jewish" ADL (Luciferian Masonic Mafia).

THIS "HATE CRIMES" BILL WAS JUST DEFEATED YESTERDAY IN US SENATE, WHICH ATTEMPTED TO DESTROY CHRISTIANITY AND ALL OTHER RELIGIONS, AND DESTROY ALL NEWS REPORTING:
www.truthtellers.org/alerts/dangerremains.html
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/226

Latest Broadcasts by Rev. Ted Pike on the Hate Bill:
www.truthtellers.org

ADL brainwashes ALL police agencies in USA, both federal and local, via ADL training programs and books for police, funded by US Govt. Senior ADL employees have been convicted of terrorist bombings and murders inside USA...

The current Mexican president Fox is Jewish. The two presidents who invented and enforce wide-open US borders via NAFTA SHAFTA contract, are Bill Clinton-Blythe (Rockefeller) and George Bush Jr (Sr). Clintons and Bushes are both Jewish. Hillary will apparently be the Demoratic nominee for the next president, thanks to her weekly 4-hour power lunches with Australian Sir Rupert Murdock Jewish Knight of the British Empire, porno king and owner of Faux News.

Bill "Clinton" was born and raised a Jew who attended weekly synogogue, until his name change at age 18.

"President Clinton was born William Jefferson Blythe III."
-WhiteHouse.gov
www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bc42.html

Quote:

George W. Bush, Zionist Double Agent, American Traitor

by Pastor Texe Marrs PhD, Capt, USAF Intelligence
Power of Prophesy Radio Show
www.texemarrs.com

In this photo from a radical Jewish Lubavitcher web site, President Bush waves on the way to his Jewish Talmud class. He was accompanied by former White House spokesman and recently ordained Rabbi, Ari Fleischer. Sources confirm that the President is a Jewish religious fanatic but understands he must keep his beliefs under cover. Talmud requires the Death Penalty for all non-Jews, and for Torah Jews who know the Luciferian Talmud is from Babylon.
www.texemarrs.com/george_w_bush_zionist_double_agent.htm

Fact: GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, is a Jew.

Absurd? Preposterous, you say? Well, I have carefully traced the history of the Bush Dynasty, including the Rothschild faction, and without hesitation I declare to you that, yes, indeed, George W. Bush is a Jew: A Jew by race, a Jew by religious choice. Hidden from public view.

What the media dare not tell you is that, as President, George W. Bush appointed as his first official White House spokesman, a Jew—in fact, a Jewish rabbi—Ari Fleischer. He retained a Jewish banker, Alan Greenspan, as Chairman of the Federal Reserve. He made a Jewish Rabbi, Dov Zackheim, the Comptroller (money man!) of the Pentagon, and he placed a Jewish ideologue and Christian hater, Michael Chertoff, in the scary position of being head of FEMA and Homeland Security. Yes, Chertoff, an ADL fiend whose father is a Jewish rabbi, is now America's Gulag Commandant, our American version of Himmler.

www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/calendar.html

This publication of the National Jewish Welfare Board lists a Major George Bush, Major Louis Bush, and Major Solomon Bush, as Jews participating in the American Revolutionary War against the British. It also reveals the money connection of Rothschild agent, Haym Salomon, to what it describes as the "weak U.S. government."

My investigation of the Bush-Jewish connection has been in progress for six years now. One thing I discovered is that George W. Bush is a devoted student of the Jewish Talmud, just as were Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. He is also, I am persuaded, a dedicated agent of Zionist Israel, which makes him double agent and traitor to the United States of America.

Bush has adopted the same techniques of torture, political deceit, perpetual war, and pure hatred of perceived enemies, as has the notorious Israeli spy agency, Mossad. The Mossad's motto is "By Way of Deception Make War." This, not coincidentally, is also George W. Bush's motto. How very Talmudic. How very Satanic.

Jew George Bush Jr worshipping in Jewish Israel
www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/calendar.html

www.texemarrs.com/george_w_bush_zionist_double_agent.htm
www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/calendar.html

"Jewish" Luciferian world govt dictatorship is why USA is not allowed to defend its borders. That's why They are working so hard to pass these so-called Hate Crimes laws in every nation, as already passed in Europe and Canada to destroy Free Speech and history. To pass a "Hate Crime" law requires overthrow of First Amendment to US Constitution.

Quote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
—First Amendment, Bill of Rights, US Constitution

"Government control of Communications and Transportation."
—The Communist Manifesto, 6th Plank, written by Jew Karl Marx in London, England

Bill "Clinton" and the Bushes attend Jewish Bohemian Grove homosexual nudist colony to worship the Jewish human sacrifice god of Molech/Lucifer/Satan.
www.infowars.com/bg1.html

"Why of course fact is stranger than fiction. Fiction, after all, HAS to amke sence."
-Mark Twain (aka Sam Clemens), member of Bohemian Grove

Forget the lies of our oppressive Kaballistic Allied Governments.
-Huckster, The Message

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:09 PM