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Originally posted by citizen:
So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming?

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Originally posted by citizen:


It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by citizen:
So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming?

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Good thanks. How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

H

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Originally posted by Hero:
How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

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Originally posted by citizen:
The same as your effort to assasinate the president leaving your path clear to create a Corporate Lawocracy with you at it's head as supreme Lawyer/Dictator.

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Originally posted by Hero:
At least everyone will have their day in court. Nobody decides 'not to sue'. No limits on award...or fees. Death penalty for all along with unlimited mandatory appeals.

Imagine a world were you take your lawyer with you to the hospital to consult with the hospital's lawyer on whether or not to treat your broken leg and if an agreement is reached then the two of them open negotiations with the Doctor's lawyer, a representative of the nurse's association and the Court of Medical Claims. Assuming it passes the Court's mandatory arbitration (with or without a hearing and appeals) you may or may not be approved to receive a visit from a doctor so long as the paperwork is all filed correctly and a suitable period of review and comment has passed with no objection from local special interest organizations after two announced public hearings and an opportunity for objections to be filed.

In my world ignorance of the law would not just be no excuse...it would be fatal.

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Originally posted by citizen:
It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by citizen:
It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?

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Because good news is good, and we don’t hear enough of it. Someone really shouldn’t have to explain to you why people like to hear good news. On the other hand, the real question is why are some people so desperate to hear bad news?

Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.

Part of the reason is that anti-Bush types don't want to hear about the economy doing well because a strong economy will reflect well on Bush, as per historical precedent.

You combine the two and you’ve got a pretty strong ideological desire to perpetuate the doom and gloom among certain people despite a strong economy.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Because there's nothing really here to discuss, gee I wonder why?

So how's that biggest rich/poor gap of any developed nation coming? All good! Excellent, good luck with that, cause everythings fine, after all.

It would seem that 'some' folks only want to hear good news, sticking their head in the sand and all that.

Gee, I wonder why?

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, I hear tell that you enjoy a good beer on occasion (as long as it ain't cold-piss-like), but would you drink that fine brew to the point of alcohol poisoning?
I don't necessarly see a lot of anti-capitalism here, what I see is anti-extremism. Capitalism, like Communism, taken to an extreme is oppressive. Extreme Capitalism (Corporatism) just means you can have a nicer TV to watch your owners tell you what to buy.
Capitalism, when combined with other, balancing ideals, works. Balancing is the trick.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Capitalism is like kicking *Uh-oh, he's going for the inevitable martial arts metaphore*, I used to be about the best kicker in my Karate school, but then I faced a guy the had way superior hand work, and got my arse handed to me. So I had to incorporate other (balancing) ideads into my personal style; a strength depended upon solely becomes a weakness.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.

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Do you have a point or... ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room for anyone up at the top. There's not room for EVERYONE. Maybe if the US controlled its borders and regulated who comes in like European countries do, we'd have an even better economy.

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Do you have a point or... ?

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Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
I'd say that there is a bit of a difference between "desperate to hear bad news" and acknowleging that things aren't quite as hunky-dorey as the Administration wants us to believe.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And is it so hard to believe that there are people who are rather fond of capitalism, that just don't happen like the way things are being run? Or is it just easier to label anyone who disagrees with Bush (a group getting larger by the day) as pinko commies?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And I notice that none of those posters on this thread supporting how "strong" the economy is have addressed the class-gap and struggling middle-class issues raised above. Very telling.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just that when it comes to wealth, not everyone is equal, nor does everyone have the same interest or drive to succeed. It's called 'freedom'. Folks can come here from a different country, not know the language, work hard and make pretty much what they want out of their lives... OR , they an sit around, do nothing, and blame everyone and everything under the sun for life's inequities. That would be the point.

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Ahh, so it's nothing to do with the system or with America having the worst social mobility (which basically means people succeed or fail based on social standing, not merit ) of any developed nation (worse than the UK's and ours is pretty terrible), it's the immigrants that are at fault, gotcha.

Fairly predictable response really.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
And if you read my post, I didn't lay any fault on the immigrants, only those who are ILLEGALLY here.

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Folks can come here from a different country

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I'd like for you to back up your claim about 'worst social mobility'.

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Social mobility lower in US and Britain than in other advanced countries
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Even so, the US has the worst record for social mobility. As the authors point out, although the notion that the US is “the land of opportunity” still persists, such a belief is misplaced.

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Children born to poor families in Britain are less likely to fulfil their potential than in other developed countries, according to a report published today.
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The report focused on how education affected the life chances of British children compared with those in other countries. It put the UK and the US at the bottom of a social mobility league table of eight European and North American countries, with Norway at the top followed by Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany and Canada.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And is it so hard to believe that there are people who are rather fond of capitalism, that just don't happen like the way things are being run? Or is it just easier to label anyone who disagrees with Bush (a group getting larger by the day) as pinko commies?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And I notice that none of those posters on this thread supporting how "strong" the economy is have addressed the class-gap and struggling middle-class issues raised above. Very telling.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
I'd say that there is a bit of a difference between "desperate to hear bad news" and acknowleging that things aren't quite as hunky-dorey as the Administration wants us to believe.

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The stock market is not the Bush Administration. They’re two different things.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Part of the reason is that anti-Bush types don't want to hear about the economy doing well because a strong economy will reflect well on Bush, as per historical precedent.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Now you're being fey. You implied it with your capatilism-hater's line.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
The class-gap is tied to economic factors, and grows wider due to this country's economic practices. Don't act like it's not an element of the topic just because you don't have an answer.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Really? So, it's not acceptable in this thread to tie the economy to the administration?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, I hear tell that you enjoy a good beer on occasion (as long as it ain't cold-piss-like), but would you drink that fine brew to the point of alcohol poisoning?
I don't necessarly see a lot of anti-capitalism here, what I see is anti-extremism. Capitalism, like Communism, taken to an extreme is oppressive. Extreme Capitalism (Corporatism) just means you can have a nicer TV to watch your owners tell you what to buy.
Capitalism, when combined with other, balancing ideals, works. Balancing is the trick.

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That’s an anti-capitalist argument. The reason is because the US is not an extreme oppressive capitalist state. And if you look at the good economy in the US and all you see is “evil,” “oppressive” capitalism, then you are not seeing the truth. If you don’t have the perspective to see the good, then you analysis of the “bad” is probably flawed to.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
if you look at the good economy in the US and all you see is “evil,” “oppressive” capitalism, then you are not seeing the truth. If you don’t have the perspective to see the good, then you analysis of the “bad” is probably flawed to.

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This was a guy who knew what real persecution and real extremism was, and he did not take the freedoms that he found in this country for granted. This was a guy who understood, first hand, that when you try to take way the class struggle, you take away the freedom.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Which is the anti-capitalist argument. And whether or not it is an element of the topic, it is not the only element, nor is it the principle element. The principle element of the topic is that the economy is improving, which is good news, though people who are voicing the anti-capitalist argument, didn’t even give the principle element of this topic a nod. Anti-capitalists don’t want to admit when the economy is doing well.

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Because good news is good, and we don’t hear enough of it.

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Part of the reason is that anti-capitalists don’t want to hear about a capitalist economy doing well so that they can continue convincing themselves that capitalism doesn’t work.

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I would help him learn English, teach him to drive a car and basically help him assimilate into American culture, and in return he would teach me taichi. He was a kungfu master, believe it or not. I really didn’t even know there was such a thing as a kungfu master before I met him, as far as I knew it was just something that I saw on tv. But he was and I study taichi from him for three years

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Class struggle is one thing, class oppression is another, and it seems to me we might be on the verge of a terrible shift in human value here. Of course, things might swing back in the direction of truth and virtue, always in motion is the future, it's not like we're damned or anything, but like all else it won't be easy. Like they say in China, it will be 'interesting'.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
BTW, still do Tai Chi? It is the ultimate martial art.

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Originally posted by Citizen:
It works both ways Finn. I could easilly say your not prepared to deal with anything that goes counter to the pro-capitalist argument. If the economy is all it's cracked up to be you should have no problem addressing the points raised.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s not what it means to work both ways, that’s what it means to work your way. The economy is doing very well. You are choosing to ignore that and focus instead on what you feel are flaws, because you don’t like the American system and don’t want to admit that it is doing well.

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And now you want me to consider your points.

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So I don’t really understand why you would think I am so petty that I would get into this pissing contest with you over US allies.

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Also who decided that all these new people with their hate Finn and hate Citizen ‘tudes could come on this board? I don’t remember signing up for that.

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If you look at the industrial societies that existed in Marx's time they were increadibly brutal and one sided. That they didn't evolve the way he thought they might is a good thing.

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You might not have heard of Willie Tan, but he is quite well-known in the Northern Marianas as a garment-industry tycoon. Sometimes he’s also described as a sweatshop operator.

He is also well-known in the U.S. Congress, where some of Sen. Clinton’s fellow Democrats have denounced him and his factories, which pay subminimum wages, for years, mostly because of his tireless efforts to make sure those factories are never subjected to U.S. labor laws. None of that has attracted much new coverage. But there is one reason you might have heard of Willie Tan. His name has popped up here and there in connection with a man with whom he’s done quite a bit of business over the years: Jack Abramoff.

Congressional investigators probing the Abramoff affair have run across Tan’s name in some of the disgraced lobbyists’ e-mails.

My colleague on this page, Josh Marshall, has posted some of those e-mails on his website, talkingpointsmemo.com. For example, in a March 28, 2000, note, Abramoff billed Willie Tan $223,679 for expenses relating to the sports skyboxes that Abramoff used in his lobbying.
Why was Willie Tan paying Abramoff? Because Abramoff could provide access to U.S. lawmakers. Last year, ABC News reported that Abramoff “arranged a lavish overseas trip to the island of Saipan for House Majority Leader Tom DeLay [R-Texas] over the New Year’s holiday in 1997.”

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Originally posted by rue:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20100

Consumer cheer hits four-year high in April
Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:51 AM ET

By Amanda Cooper

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. consumer confidence in the economy reached a four-year high in April as better job prospects temporarily offset unease over rising gasoline prices, according to data released on Tuesday.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/poll.economy/index.html

Poll: Confidence in economy dips
More than four out of five concerned about inflation

Wednesday, May 10, 2006; Posted: 5:08 p.m. EDT (21:08 GMT)

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. found that 52 percent consider the economy "good," while 47 percent call it "poor." But the results show that even those who consider the economy strong have concerns.

More than four out of five -- 82 percent -- said they are at least somewhat concerned about inflation, with 45 percent describing themselves as "very concerned."


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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