REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The New Republician Guide to America

POSTED BY: FREDGIBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 16:29
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Friday, May 26, 2006 9:09 AM

SASSALICIOUS


It's good to be tweaked.

Another thing about abortion: when it's illegal the poor suffer more because the wealthier people can find a decent doctor to perform it OR leave the country.

Quote:
Who doesn't think that there's a woman out there, somewhere (maybe you already know her) who would say ANYTHING if she knew that telling that lie would buy her access to a clean, safe, legal abortion, even if she knew damn well it could destroy someone else's life.


I would certainly go to the hospital and say I was raped. I don't know that I would actually name a person, but I would not be above lying about it. Want me to come up with some injuries to prove it? I'd be glad to come up with those as well.

This link includes info on how, why, and when abortion became illegal in the U.S. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/history_abortion.html
I especially love the vigilante pro-lifers that blow up abortion clinics (there's a documentary I keep meaning to watch about this). Do they even realize that in doing such an act, they're killing the very thing they claim to protect? But I suppose the woman and the doctor don't matter because they are vile murderers.

The very same people who want to make abortion illegal again are, for the most part, trying to limit access to birth control. I think everyone can agree that abortion is never a GOOD thing and it's a difficult choice to make, there are usually psychological repercussions for a short time afterward, and that in a perfect world it wouldn't be viewed as simply a form of birth control (though I don't think many women have multiple abortions). If we lived in a perfect world, there would be comprehensive sex education, NOT merely reproductive biology. It's really good to know that when an egg and sperm meet, they fuse together and eventually turn into a zygote. However that knowledge doesn't stop it from happening. We need to teach people about safe sex, birth control techniques, the varieties of pills vs. shots vs patches vs whatever else there is. We need to instruct people in the proper way to use the different methods of contraception, thus reducing human error. We need over the counter morning after pills (it's not an abortion pill, it's more like birth control pills on steroids). We need the FDA to approve the abortion pill. We need EDUCATION. We need politicans to stop touting abstinence only education because it's been scientifically disproven as effective. We need FREE AND EASY ACCESS to birth control. PREVENTION in the first place will reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Parental consent. We need a society where teens are comfortable discussing things of a sexual nature with their parents. A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine after consent laws for minors seeking abortions went into effect, Texas had a decrease abortion rates. That's all well and good, but there was an increase in second trimester abortions because girls who ended up pregnant a few months before their 18th birthdays just waited and got one later, despite the fact that there are increased emotional, financial, and physical costs.

What is choice? Choice is the power to choose between different options. Women should be able to choose whether or not to keep their child and whether or not they want to be pregnant in the first place, whether that decision is made via abortion or birth control and contraceptives. Right now women can choose to deliver naturally or deliver on a scheduled date and time via C-section. C-sections have increased risk. After she has the C-section, a number of doctors don't let women go back to natural birth because there are "risks". If the woman wants to take the risk, let her. It's her body. If a woman is pregnant and some health complication comes up, generally speaking doctors let her choose whether or not the continue the pregnancy, even if she ends up dying. It's commonly called altruistic suicide. However, if someone is dying of a terminal illness, we force them to live out their last days in agony because getting a prescription to painlessly end one's own life is not ok.

When will the madness end? You can't be pro-choice on some arguments and non-choice on others. It's all or nothing.

As Dan Savage likes to point out, there is no longer just a war on homosexual people. They're after heterosexuals as well.
Quote:
" Straight Rights Update Earlier this month Republicans in South Dakota successfully banned abortion in that state. Last week the GOP-controlled state house of representatives in Missouri voted to ban state-funded family-planning clinics from dispensing birth control. "If you hand out contraception to single women," one Republican state rep told The Kansas City Star, "we're saying promiscuity is OK." On the federal level, Republicans are blocking the over-the-counter sale of emergency contraception and keeping a 100 percent effective HPV vaccine—a vaccine that will save the lives of thousands of women every year—from being made available.

The GOP's message to straight Americans: If you have sex, we want it to fuck up your lives as much as possible. No birth control, no emergency contraception, no abortion services, no life-saving vaccines. If you get pregnant, tough shit. You're having those babies, ladies, and you're making those child-support payments, gentlemen. If you get HPV and it leads to cervical cancer, well, that's too bad. Have a nice funeral, slut.

What's it going to take to get a straight rights movement off the ground? The GOP in Kansas wants to criminalize hetero heavy petting, for God's sake! Wake up and smell the freaking holy war, breeders! The religious right hates heterosexuality just as much as it hates homosexuality. Fight back!"


I'm not even going to get started on how if men have sex they're studs, but if women do the same thing, we're sluts!

I'm done ranting for the moment.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you look back in history it's a common double standard of society
The guy gets all the glory, the more he can score
While the girl can do the same and yet you call her a whore
I don't understand why its OK,
The guy can get away with it while a girl gets named
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, May 26, 2006 10:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
The difference with abortion is that you are killing the fetus, not letting it die by inaction. And if you consider it to be a human being...
I don't consider a fetus to be a human being. Why would you?



---------------------------------
It don't make no sense.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 12:48 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by mothermole:
interesting. i did not realize that wanting to have the same rights as everyone else was asking for "special considerations/protections", especially in a country that brags about such things as "freedom" and "equality". i guess that only means freedom and equal rights for some people. if only we could practice what we preach.
So what else is new?


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 1:09 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:
The GOP's message to straight Americans: If you have sex, we want it to fuck up your lives as much as possible. No birth control, no emergency contraception, no abortion services, no life-saving vaccines. If you get pregnant, tough shit. You're having those babies, ladies, and you're making those child-support payments, gentlemen. If you get HPV and it leads to cervical cancer, well, that's too bad. Have a nice funeral, slut.
This is breath-takingly blunt and on target.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 1:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
The GOP's message to straight Americans: If you have sex, we want it to fuck up your lives as much as possible. No birth control, no emergency contraception, no abortion services, no life-saving vaccines. If you get pregnant, tough shit. You're having those babies, ladies, and you're making those child-support payments, gentlemen. If you get HPV and it leads to cervical cancer, well, that's too bad. Have a nice funeral, slut.

This is breath-takingly blunt and on target.- Rue
Well It's very much in line with this from
Quote:
BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated.
It's very clear to me that his interest in granting abortion is a reward for being a religious virgin and his interest in w/holding abortion is punitive. It has NOTHING to do with either the sanctity of fetus (the fetus would still be human even if resulting from rape of a virgin) and nothing at all to do with the health of the mother.

People really are stupid if they think the far right has any interest at all in that sort of thing.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 2:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:
BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's very clear to me that his interest in granting abortion is a reward for being a religious virgin and his interest in w/holding abortion is punitive. It has NOTHING to do with either the sanctity of fetus (the fetus would still be human even if resulting from rape of a virgin) and nothing at all to do with the health of the mother.

People really are stupid if they think the far right has any interest at all in that sort of thing.
SignyM: Thank you for that comment. It is realy true: Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 2:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:
BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's very clear to me that his interest in granting abortion is a reward for being a religious virgin and his interest in w/holding abortion is punitive. It has NOTHING to do with either the sanctity of fetus (the fetus would still be human even if resulting from rape of a virgin) and nothing at all to do with the health of the mother.

People really are stupid if they think the far right has any interest at all in that sort of thing.
SignyM: Thank you for that comment. It was right in front of me but I never noticed. And yet it's vital. It really is true: Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 2:42 PM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by mothermole:
interesting. i did not realize that wanting to have the same rights as everyone else was asking for "special considerations/protections",

Thats understandable. Its a common misconception. It comes from the liberal notion that the "same rights as everyone else" means having rights superior to others in order to artificially correct real or perceived injustice.

H

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Friday, May 26, 2006 2:53 PM

SASSALICIOUS


How is wanting to get married and have a recognized homosexual union in any way trying to have rights superior to others?

Pretty sure the injustice is real.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, May 26, 2006 2:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Zero,
Quote:
Thats understandable. Its a common misconception. It comes from the liberal notion that the "same rights as everyone else" means having rights superior to others in order to artificially correct real or perceived injustice.
Are you having a happy friday alone at home by yourself? This made even less sense than normal. At least, as normal as you get.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 5:27 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
I don't consider a fetus to be a human being. Why would you?


??? Surely you can understand why many people consider fetuses to be human beings? You must be baiting me but I can't for the life of me figure out what clever argument you have up your sleeve, now that you've lured me out.

Well, meanwhile, could you explain to me at what point exactly we achieve 'human being' status?

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Friday, May 26, 2006 6:39 PM

SASSALICIOUS


The case can also be made that a fetus is merely a parasite, despite human qualities.

Not baiting, just an observation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, May 26, 2006 6:48 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Homosexuals are welcome, but not entitled to special consideration or protections.

Did they ever ask for special consideration? All I heard them ask for was the ability to legally marry like any heterosexual couple. Doesn't sound too extreme, does it?
Quote:
Saddam was the lesser evil in a world dominated by the ideological struggle against communism and the more recent conflict against the Islamafascists in Iran.

Very true. Politics makes strange bedfellows.
Quote:
After 9/11 our policy changed to one in which we no longer allow these people to sit back and poke us with sticks year after year...we hit back.

The only poking I saw from Iraq was Saddam's birthday where he mocked us. There has been no reliable evidence that Saddam had anything to do with the terrorists. That intel was brought to you by the same folks who brought us the WMD fiasco...
Quote:
Reagan was blasted because he wanted to trade with South Africa, but his plan was to use trade as the means of moving them in the direction we want them to go. Such is the case with Vietnam. In China's case we have trade with them because for several decades we courted them as a possible ally against the Soviet Union. When the Soviets fell we continued to encourage reform. They have economically reformed, but politically they are mired in 20th Century thinking. We continue to push reform and cannot ourselves afford to be isolated from such a large potential market. We nust be involved in China's future path or else we risk them courting their allies and partners with those who are our more aggressive enemies...also an isolated China might become desperate and a desperate near superpower is very dangerous. Such dangers led to Japan's attack on the US in WW2, and thats also why we sold low priced grain to the starving Soviets, even at the height of the cold war.

You are correct in your analysis, but how does that explain not trading with Cuba?
Quote:
Who cares if the enviroment is bad if your enemployed?

Your grandchildren.
Quote:
Children need all the facts...including adstenance.

Kids do need to know about abstinence, but we all know that some aren't going to listen. So why take their protection away because its "morally wrong" to the religious right?
Quote:
Creationism should be taught in schools alongside other theories.

This is what many in the Right are uncomprehending on: Creationism isn't a theory! By definition, a scientific theory is a hypothesis that has been rigorously tested, and that there is a hell of a lot of evidence for. Creationism does not meet that standard because it is just a guess with ZERO evidence. THAT is why it doesn't belong in the classroom any more than the belief that Overlord Xenu dumped billions of frozen aliens into Earth's volcanoes, creating life (for those of you who dont know, that is Scientology)
Quote:
Its a moral failing and a crime for everyone and its an illness whose victims need prayer for recovery.

If doing drugs is a moral failing, then so is watching Firefly, or any show for that matter, or going to the movies, or doing anything to distract yourself from the depressing monotony of life.



You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 7:37 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:
belief that Overlord Xenu dumped billions of frozen aliens into Earth's volcanoes, creating life (for those of you who dont know, that is Scientology)


Ewww. Is that really true? That's some f***ed up shit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, May 26, 2006 7:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
??? Surely you can understand why many people consider fetuses to be human beings? You must be baiting me but I can't for the life of me figure out what clever argument you have up your sleeve, now that you've lured me out.
No, I'm not baiting at all. I'm truly curious sicne I really don't know when we DO become "human".

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 7:41 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Not baiting, just an observation.


Err, I wasn't meaning the type of baiting that you do to bears, more baiting a trap and luring someone into it. Observe all you like

Quote:
The case can also be made that a fetus is merely a parasite, despite human qualities


I don't like the word 'merely' in there. Otherwise your sentence is fine. Being a parasite and a human being are not mutually exclusive though. You can argue the same (being a parasite) for any dependent child, from a suckling baby to a sponging teenager.


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Friday, May 26, 2006 7:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Quote:
??? Surely you can understand why many people consider fetuses to be human beings? You must be baiting me but I can't for the life of me figure out what clever argument you have up your sleeve, now that you've lured me out.

No, I'm not baiting at all. I'm truly curious.


Okay... you still got to answer my question though.

They have DNA that shows they are human (I think - unless 'Heart of Gold' has lied to me...), and they are alive, so they are in a state of 'being'. Hence 'human being'.

And also I can't think of a way for you to neatly disqualify them... but that's where your trap comes into play...

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:05 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
??? Surely you can understand why many people consider fetuses to be human beings? You must be baiting me but I can't for the life of me figure out what clever argument you have up your sleeve, now that you've lured me out.
No, I'm not baiting at all. I'm truly curious sicne I really don't know when we DO become "human".

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.


you know I don't know at what point we become human beings either, but it has been reported by some people that there soul(pure consiousness) has hovered over or watched the mother right up until it was time to be born before they entered into physical existence. I'm only relaying what I've read and heard, (and although I don't remember at what point I entered into my mom's womb I have experienced being out of body on one occassion so I am personally familar with being in a state of pure consiousness) but if its true, then the fetus isn't alive, so if its true that most souls don't enter the womb until lets say the last month or two of preganancy or maybe the majority of souls wait right up until its time to be born before they entered into physical existence,then in the early stages of preganancy when most people abort, they wouldn't be killing a human being.

if it takes a soul to animate a human body, then the fetus or even the baby wouldn't be human until the soul entered into it.

just some food for thought

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
They have DNA that shows they are human (I think - unless 'Heart of Gold' has lied to me...), and they are alive, so they are in a state of 'being'. Hence 'human being'.
If I understand my biology correctly (biologists are welcome to step in and correct me) the fertilized human egg becomes BOTH the placenta AND the embryo. But the development can go awry and only a placenta develops. So here we have some tissue that is "alive" and it has the human genome but it clearly is not human. In fact- I can say the same thing of my liver, which is alive and has a human genome but is certainly not a human being. So being alive and having human genes is an insufficient definition to describe
"human being".

I hope you realize that I'm not trying to be tricky. I'm trying to reach a definition.



http://info.med.yale.edu/obgyn/kliman/placenta/articles/EOR_Placenta/T
rophtoplacenta.html
www.med.unc.edu/embryo_images/unit-bdyfm/bdyfm_htms/bdyfm003.htm

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:56 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
How is wanting to get married and have a recognized homosexual union in any way trying to have rights superior to others?

Because they are already free to marry. A man, homsexual or not, can marry a woman, homosexual or not. But straight or gay, they cannot marry the same sex. Thus there is no discrimination to correct. Marriage is between a man and a woman.

Now, as a lawyer, I support the idea of creating a mechanism, similar to marriage, by which couples can form a homosexual union. In fact I think such unions could benefit non-homosexuals such as elderly siblings, life-long friends, etc, by allowing them to more efficiently pool resources.

H

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:59 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
The case can also be made that a fetus is merely a parasite, despite human qualities.

Thats true of my older brother too.

H

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Since the dispute revolves around the definition of marriage you're using the thing to be proved as proof. I forget the name of this fallacy. But perhaps you can enlighten us about the legal nature of marriage... what benefits and obligations accrue to being married, whether the expectation of exclusive sexual relations is a religious, customary or legal expectation etc. I know this varies state by state, but to start things off...

Obviously you can file your taxes as "married, filing joint" if you are married.
Social Security benefits come into play, since wives can draw from their husband's retirement (but not the other way around- seems like guys should fight this one).
Insurance (state law) benefits can extend to married partners. Some states recpgnize "domestic partners" as well.
Community property (state law) is also part of some marriage contracts.





---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:13 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Why does marriage have to be between a man and a woman? I know that's what most, if not all, lawbooks say. However, there are many many laws that we commonly disregard because they are lame. Traditionally, marriage has been between a man and a woman, but traditional marriage was more about giving away the woman/female child to the highest bidder. There is still evidence of this in the ceremony.

And what the Bible says shouldn't have any bearing on what happen's in the courtroom.

Furthermore, you're acting as though homosexuality is a choice, when it's not. There have been studies done on mice that have generated homosexual mice. Without going into complexities, Gender Identity Disorder can result in a homosexual pairing from external views but heterosexual when internally viewed. Sexual reassignments for children with non-discernible genitals. What if you get it "wrong"? He's genetically male and has been raised female his whole life. If environment exerts a strong enough force, he might continue to believe he's female. Regardless of who he marries it's arguably a homosexual relationship. "As Nature Made Him: The Story of the Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl" is an interesting read about a boy who was sex-changed to a girl around 1 year of age. He experienced a lot of internal conflict growing up that only resolved itself when his parents confessed and he had a sex-change back to male.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:10 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by KPO:
They have DNA that shows they are human (I think - unless 'Heart of Gold' has lied to me...), and they are alive, so they are in a state of 'being'. Hence 'human being'.
So does the skin on my arm.

I burnt my arm in an accident involving me and some very hot cooking oil. I've got a pretty bad burn now and many, many cells died in this tragedy, they all had Human DNA, they were all alive until I mercilessly cut them down with my carelessness.

I guess that makes me guilty of multiple counts of manslaughter.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Zero: Marriage is between a man and a woman.

SignyM: Since the dispute revolves around the definition of marriage you're using the thing to be proved as proof.


SignyM,

Don't pay attention to Zero. He's just aping an intellect. It's pitiful. It's like watching a dog try to talk.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm still sticking with my definition of a human life as 'normal cortical brain activity'. It works for the end of human life, 'brain dead' = dead. Both logic and biology demand it be applied to the beginning as well as the end.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:23 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm still sticking with my definition of a human life as 'normal cortical brain activity'. It works for the end of human life, 'brain dead' = dead. Both logic and biology demand it be applied to the beginning as well as the end.


I second this.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:29 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
This is what many in the Right are uncomprehending on: Creationism isn't a theory! By definition, a scientific theory is a hypothesis that has been rigorously tested, and that there is a hell of a lot of evidence for. Creationism does not meet that standard because it is just a guess with ZERO evidence.


The problem is that Creationists don't care about science. They are willing to take their beliefs and modify then slightly to make them sound scientific (Intelligent Design my ass), but they are not willing to accept that their beliefs do not hold up to scientific study.


Quote:
THAT is why it doesn't belong in the classroom any more than the belief that Overlord Xenu dumped billions of frozen aliens into Earth's volcanoes, creating life (for those of you who dont know, that is Scientology)


Wait..you mean that isn't real????? What have I been wasting all my money on???? Hold on...I was told that anyone who wasn't at least O.T. 3 would die if they heard about that...oh god...you just killed everyone who read this thread.

Anybody who wants more info on the reality of Scientology should go to this website:
http://www.xenu.net/
it's amazing what the Scientologists believe.

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