A well regulated Militia by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'm all for the "natural process" interpretation of this. In the end, anyone who doesn't know how to operate a firearm will die, and only the best of those that do will live. See? Everyone's happy."

Actually, the use of firearms is quite the opposite of Darwin's Natural Selection.

One might argue that in the past, when the weapon of choice was a dagger or sword or club or even bare fists, that the strongest or most skilled would absolutely dominate the weaker and less skilled.

The reason some called the Peacemaker the 'Equalizer,' and the reason that they said 'God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal' is because you no longer had to be stronger or have superior martial training in order to protect your rights. Anyone with basic instruction could operate a firearm with an even chance of success at close range.

I recall one such encounter from my youth, reported in the Miami Herald. An elderly wheelchair-bound lady was beset by a burglar who was wheeling her about her house, demanding that she point out the locations of items of value, on pain of death. At an opportune moment, the lady produced a firearm from under the blanket in her lap, and dispatched the burglar. It is almost certain that she was in no physical condition to persevere against her aggressor had she not been armed with a firearm.

I wish I had a clipping of that article. It gave me a gratifying sense of justice.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 1:18 PM

FREDGIBLET

I agree, gun control is one of the few issues that I have a Conservative view of. The fact that so many lawmakers and whiners seem to forget is that criminals by definition do not adhere to the law so making a law that says no one can have guns just means that only criminals will have guns.

"Gun control means using both hands" - Bumper Sticker

"When guns are outlawed my sword collection will make me feel safer"

- random text file I found on the 'net

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:18 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD

Not that I'm taking offense, but I don't recall saying anything about Darwin. Obviously, the confusion is in the fact that I used a term like "natural process", but I'm more than aware of the ability of firearms to make people equal.

My point is that in the long run, it is the people who have better discipline with the weapon who will be left, and anybody that those people decide are worth keeping alive. Wow, it sounds so harsh saying it like that, but isn't that the reality of any nation? If we as a people didn't provide services for the incapable, they would die, right?

Well, I'm going further into this than I really want to. As tounge and cheek as my first response was, I'm an avid supporter of the freedom to bear arms. Usually, the big argument I hear in opposition is about innocent people dying, and I suppose I was trying to make an extreme statement to sum up a sad life fact: Those who don't prepare, die.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 4:29 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
What do you all think?

Who needs the 2nd Amendment? Most state Constitutions, like mine here in Ohio...the best of all the States, 'have a right to bear arms' clause that is not so poorly worded. Ohio's leaves out the frilly language and is essentially just 'right to bear arms'. Then there's Texas, which is essentially 'have gun, will travel'. So who needs the stupid 2nd Amendment anyway?

I did recently notice that the Federal law prohibiting weapons within 1000 yards of a school makes nearly the entire City of Cleveland a gun free zone. Not that most people noticed. It'll be overturned on those grounds alone.

H

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 3:28 AM

ZISKER

I believe that they'll come and take our books away ala Fahrenheit 451 before they take our guns away. Why?

1. The NRA and other gun lobbyists are very powerful. Never underestimate the sway of cold hard cash in a politician's pocket. Librarians make far less in terms of funds.

2. The logistics of removing every gun from every home. Books don't shoot. People do.

3. If you really want to get paranoid, most people (not all, but many) in the military love their guns. LOVE their guns. And know how to operate them. And wouldn't take kindly to someone saying they couldn't have their toys at home. This would be a problem. Not so many are as fond of literature (or, such has been my experience).

So I don't think the Second Amendment is going away any time soon.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/
http://forum.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:40 AM

"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
-Samuel Adams, 1786

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
-Samuel Adams, 1786

So the Constitution prevents amputation?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
So the Constitution prevents amputation?

Exactly!

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 4:20 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Tennessee Constitution

Section 24. That the sure and certain defense of a free people, is a well regulated militia; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to freedom, they ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and safety of the community will admit; and that in all cases the military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil authority.

Section 25. That no citizen of this State, except such as are employed in the army of the United States, or militia in actual service, shall be subjected to punishment under the martial or military law. That martial law, in the sense of the unrestricted power of military officers, or others, to dispose of the persons, liberties or property of the citizen, is inconsistent with the principles of free government, and is not confined to any department of the government of this State.

Section 26. That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

Section 27. That no soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner prescribed by law.

Section 28. That no citizen of this State shall be compelled to bear arms, provided he will pay an equivalent, to be ascertained by law.

Constitutional Law terrifies most judges, prosecutors and defense lawyers, apparently because it's so powerful in overruling Communist laws in USSA. I quoted the state and fed Constitutions in my defense brief to a traffic ticket for safe driving at 5mph, so the prosecutors dismissed their own case and paid all court costs. Read the successful defense arguments, plus a link to Deals Gap Militia at bottom of page:
www.dealsgapdragon.com

Democratic Militias know how to treat their elected representatives...

Quote:
"These militia covenants were voluntary associations, explicitly founded to defend a way of life. Most agreed to elect their officers by majority vote, and to be bound by 'equal laws' of their own making. Professional soldiers smiled indulgently at the sight of the New England militia on its training days. They laughed contemptuously at the awkward drill, hooted the clumsy marching, and howled with laughter at the bizarre Yankee custom of saluting an officer by discharging a blank-loaded musket at his feet."
—David Hackett Fischer, Paul Revere's Ride
www.amazon.com

US citizens own modern muskets firing 6,000 bullets per second

Well why don'tcha put HER in charge?!
-Bill Paxton, Aliens

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Monday, May 15, 2006 9:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

The Milita, as Constitutionally expressed, means every person in the country old enough to pick up and use a firearm.

EVERYONE
Period.

Thus, it was exactly intended to ensure that the state and/or FedGov never, ever outgunned "the people" and in fact the intention as expressed in the Federalist/AntiFederalist debates and papers was that the citizens should OUTGUN any standing army raised.

So read The Federalist Papers, and The AntiFederalist Papers (easy enough to google em, I've posted the links a couple times already) for more details on this issue.

WE, are the milita, We-The-People, that means us, when it says militia.

Just so ya know,
-F

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Monday, May 15, 2006 6:31 PM

FREDGIBLET

Hey, PirateNews, where'd you get that awesome picture?

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Monday, May 15, 2006 9:19 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Hey, PirateNews, where'd you get that awesome picture?

Yeah, that's a winner. I bet everyone screams like that the first time they shoot one.

No website, just an index to pirate:
http://home.nc.rr.com/shayden/

Do a Google image search for "miniguns". I used to work on those things in USAF, and now I'm starting to at least look at them again. They aren't too expensive, either, so far as men's toys go. Bullets, however, can get pricey after a few seconds, unless you have a 22 rimfire Gatling Gun.

The psychos in Gangsta Govt have hijacked most of the guns. Now it's time for sane people to defend themselves, one way or another.

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:52 PM

LANCER

I am very pro-gun, esspesally being Libritarian i belive someone should be able to own a gun if they want, (unless under specific circumstances) Guns are vital to self defense, and if guns where outlawed, only outlaws would own them and crime rates would SKYROCKET!

Well, here I am

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:35 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Citizen and I had an interesting conversation about this on another thread.

Apparently the British system results in MORE CRIME but with FEWER DEATHS while the American system results in MORE DEATHS but with FEWER CRIMES. Essentially, their crimes are more numerous (per capita), but our crimes are more lethal.

After discussing it with him, I now finally understand the British view. They are not unlike Ghandi or Christ, willing to take an individual whallop if it reduces the number of people slain in society at large.

I am, sadly, not very Christ-like. I don't want to disarm. I'd rather make an attempt to defend myself.

So, for those that agree with my point of view, here are some random heartwarming anecdotes of successful self-defense, collected from 1990-2000. This is part of a list of 1080 recorded cases of firearms being used in self defense collected by the Healy Law Office in Tyler, Texas:

***********

Bill Hazen was in his cabin near Bakersfield, Calif., shortly after midnight when an intruder forced a sliding glass door. The Los Angeles minister was armed and ordered the man outside. During an ensuing scuffle the attacker ran, but an accomplice appeared in a pickup truck and tried to run down Hazen. The minister fired at the advancing truck and when the vehicle stopped, its occupant got out and said, "I counted six shots; you're out and now I'm going to get you." Hazen fired his large-capacity semi-automatic once more, dropping his adversary. Both men were taken into custody by sheriff's deputies. (The Californian, Bakersfield, Calif. 10/25/89)

Wilson Brown, 84, and his wife were watching television in their Pittsburgh, Pa., home when a man climbed through their apartment window. The intruder wanted money, and Brown gave him $2--all he had. But the robber wasn't satisfied, and he put a knife to the wife's throat and demanded more. Brown went to the bedroom, returned with a revolver and fired on his wife's assailant. He let go of her and jumped out the window. (The Press, Pittsburgh, Pa. 9/22/89)

New York, N.Y., businessman Richard Rand was walking from his car to his house when a man ran up behind him and tried to grab his money bag. The robber hit Rand over the head and threw ammonia in his face, but Rand managed to draw his licensed revolver and fatally shoot his attacker. (The Post, New York, N.Y. 9/28/89)

Paul Green was on his way to buy cigarettes at a Hot Springs, Ark., gas station when he spotted the flash from a large knife in the attendant's cubicle. Armed with a handgun, Green investigated and found a knife-wielding thug stealing money. He told the man to freeze, but the robber tried to stab him. Green fired once, killing the masked would-be thief--a parolee with a long record of violent crime. The female station attendant was not injured. (The Arkansas Gazette, Little Rock, Ark. 10/28/89)

"Give me all you got, buddy," a knife-wielding robber ordered Anderson, Ind., resident Link Oliver as he walked down the street. The 61-year-old man responded by drawing a handgun. Oliver tried to lead his adversary to a nearby store, but the man dropped the knife and ran away. (The HeraldlBulletin, Anderson,lnd. 10/10/89)

Bruce Paquette and a friend were hunting in the vicinity of Merrimack, N.H., when they came across a group of vandals ransacking a car. The hunters ordered the foursome to stop and held them at gunpoint until police arrived to take them into custody. (The Monitor, Concord, N.H. 10/16/89)

A pregnant Weverton, Md., woman was washing the dishes when she heard a doorknob rattling. She saw a ski-masked man trying to break in, and she raced to a bedroom to grab her husband's revolver. While she was on the phone to police, the prowler broke out a kitchen window to gain entry. The 23-year-old woman fired a shot into the floor; the man fled. (The Morning Herald, Hagerstown, Md. 11/2/89)

Joseph Mills' wife awoke when she heard noises outside their Ashland, Va., home. She alerted her husband, and they watched a man who'd been standing on their porch go to a neighbor's home. Mills grabbed a handgun and went outside while his wife called police. The resident caught the prowler jimmying the neighbor's door, and he held the man for police. "I wish we had more citizens like that," the police chief said. (The News Leader, Richmond, Va. 8/22/89)

Hearing the sound of breaking glass coming from the monitor in their 13-month-old baby's room, a Parkrose, Oreg., couple rushed to investigate. The mother got there first, finding a naked and bleeding man in the room. She grabbed the child and ran from the room, just as Howard Prink arrived with his handgun. When the intruder lunged at the resident, despite repeated warnings, Prink fired a single shot--killing the man. (The Oregonian, Portland, Oreg. 1/8/90)

His store burglarized twice in a week, Denis Picard of Lewiston, Maine, was on hand for the third attempt. When he heard the door to the business being broken down, Picard got a shotgun and investigated. Finding a man pawing through a gun case, Picard ordered him to stop. When the intruder instead started to advance, Picard helped him make up his mind with a warning blast, then held him for police. (The Sun-Journal, Lewiston, ME, 10/09/91)

Willie Harris let a man use the phone in his Smithfield, Alabama, home, but when the man returned several hours later, he wasn't interested in a return call. Attacked by the man an an accomplice, Harris managed to retrieve a pistol he keeps in the house for personal protection and fired, wounding both attackers, one mortally. (The News, Birmingham, AL, 08/23/93)

A Zion, Illinois, restaurant owner was ready when a strong-arm robber made his second appearance in two weeks. The thug, who was found to have cocaine in his blood, jumped the counter of Bernice Thurmond's eatery, shoved her aside and started grabbing money from the cash register. Thurmond grabbed a broom and hit the robber several times, then snatched up a handgun and fired, critically wounding him. The state's attorney said the shooting appeared justified. (The Tribune, Chicago, IL, 07/05/93)

A late-night robbery attempt in a San Bernardino, California, pizza shop ended when an employee shot it out with the robbers and killed one. The armed crooks entered the shop through a back door and started binding the employees with tape. The employee pulled his gun, and in an exchange of shots, mortally wounded one and wounded the other. (The Press-Enterprise, San Bernardino, CA, 05/27/93)

After his home was burglarized, Alan Jones reluctantly purchased a handgun, little knowing he would use it a month later to break up a robbery attempt. Jones, of Benge, Washington, was driving home when he saw a farmer neighbor apparently helping two men get their truck out of a ditch. Jones stopped to help, but came under fire from one of the two strangers. Jones grabbed his own gun and fired back, prompting the duo to flee in the neighbor's truck. One of the pair, a suspect in a number of other burglaries in the area, was caught in the ensuing manhunt. (The Spokesman-Review, Spokane, WA, 01/27/94)

A Phoenix, Arizona, gang member thought he had the upper hand as he trained a shotgun on his quarry. But the scattergun was snatched from his hands by his intended victim. Despite aid from another gangster, the first gangbanger was beaten senseless and struck by gunshots, both from his own shotgun and from his mark's .44 Mag. The attack cost the criminal both arms. (The Republic, Phoenix, AZ, 4/2/95)

Awakened to the sounds of gunfire, Miami, Florida, resident Manuel Lopez grabbed his own gun and ran into his living room to discover four armed men herding family members into the house from the front lawn. One of the intruders made the fatal mistake of pointing a gun in Lopez's face. The householder shot him, killing the robber instantly. The other men fled the scene at the sight of their fallen accomplice. (The Herald, Miami, FL, 4/9/95)

A history of alleged physical abuse by her ex-boyfriend, William Barbour, convinced Christine Pittman of Guilford Township, Pennsylvania, to buy a .25-cal. pistol. When he broke through a dead-bolted door into her home early one morning, she dialed 91l and then gave her pistol over to her boyfriend, Patrick Atkinson. When Barbour rushed Atkinson, the new boyfriend loosed five shots into his attacker. The shooting was ruled a justifiable homicide by the District Attorney as Atkinson "reasonably feared for his own safety and that of Christine Pittman." Barbour had a history of abuse and a criminal record. (The Herald Mail, Hagerstown, MD, 3/15/97)

A San Francisco, California, art dealer was awakened at 2 a.m. by the sound of breaking glass in his home. Fearing for the safety of his daughters, who were asleep downstairs, Allen Leung dialed 911 for help and grabbed his .38-cal. handgun. The intruder made his way into Leung's bedroom, demanded money and threatened him. Leung shot the man in the chest. The burglar had a criminal record. Leung was not expected to be charged because he acted in self-defense, police said. (The Chronicle, San Francisco, CA, 4/4/97)

Cayetana Martinez of Eloise, Florida, is 82. His age may have been what prompted two miscreants to view him as an easy target and break down his door and enter his home. Little did they know that he was armed with a 9 mm handgun and knew how to use it. Martinez killed one suspect and sent the other fleeing. The elderly gentleman was not injured. (The Herald, Bradenton, FL, 6/7/97)

Juan Perez entered a Philadelphia grocery store to buy a jar of pickles, but was lucky to emerge a short time later with his life. Perez watched in horror as gunmen stormed in, put a gun to his head, robbed him of $20, and forced him to lie on the floor. That's when the ruffians went after the store's owner whose wife and children were on the premises. As Perez lay fear-stricken on the floor, he heard one of the would-be robbers tell the merchant, "Either give me the money or I will shoot your child." At that, the merchant brought his own gun to bear and opened fire on his two assailants. In the ensuing battle, Perez was wounded in the shoulder by one of the armed robbers and one gunman was killed. Perez later commented of the merchant's actions flatly, "He was protecting his family." Another neighbor said, "I think he did the right thing. He had to protect his wife and children." (Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 3/13/00)

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:37 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I am, sadly, not very Christ-like. I don't want to disarm. I'd rather make an attempt to defend myself.

I'd rather succeed but to each his own

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

My philosophy on guns is this:

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

And to me, "gun control" means hitting what you're aiming at! :)

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:31 AM

LANCER

their is nothing unChristlike about defending yourself

Well, here I am

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 6:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA

These took some digging folks, but it's well worth it.

Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
-Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

The word 'arms' in the connection we find it in the Constitution of the United States, refers to the arms of a militiaman or soldier, and the word is used in its military sense. The arms of the infantry soldier are the musket and bayonet; of cavalry and dragoons, the saber, holster pistols and carbine; of the artillery, the field piece, siege gun, and mortar, with side arms.
-English v State, Texas 473, 476 (1871-2).

That means, yes, the 2nd Amendment means durn well that if you wanna mount a 105mm in your front yard, by all means, be our guest.

Still think our Gov gives a damn about that document?

-F

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:27 AM

So you can have a musket, but a 9mm auto loader is right out. That's good to know, only 18th century weapons are constitutionally protected, everything else can be taken away.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

I could be happy with a brace of pistols and a cutlass. Arr!

Will you concede the percussion cap? I like an all-weather ignition system. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:00 AM

FLATTOP

The wording of the 2nd ammendment was no accident. Further reading from the period in which it was written indicates that every able bodied (capable of lifting, loading, discharging a weapon) male (sorry ladies, we are talking about 1700's (even today women are not permitted in front line combat positions (which is not to say they do not see combat))) constituted the malitia.
Every time the U.S. Constitution uses the word Power, it is referring to the State. When it uses the word Right, it is referring to "The People".
"The People" mentioned in the 2nd ammendment are the same "the People" from the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th ammendments. Unless you are willing to propose that the entire Bill of Rights lists only things the State may do, we all get to keep our weapons.
The 2nd ammendment was put into the Constitution specifically to provide the People with the means to overthrow the Government, should it prove to be tyranical. Our right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with hunting for food. It has to do with each of us possessing the means to take human life. It is intended to make the government fear the people.
From the Declaration of Independence, "...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes desttructive of these Ends, it is the right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."
There is an ancient Roman (or is it Greeek?) law that reads in effect, "All citizens must be armed. No subjects may ever bear arms."

Walt Disney said it quite eloquently, "K-K-K-Blam! Elimination. Lack of education."

As an aside:
The Star Trek Next Gen movie where they rescued the really old (near immortal) folk from wherever it was contained the following exchange:
Capt. Picard, "We can beam down sufficient weapons to arm all of you."
Woman, "We will not fight. It would mean abandoning everything we stand for."
And then the STNG crew get them selves shot at trying to save them.
It is my opinion that if you are unwilling to fight for your own survival, you do not deserve protection. Unable to fight, even being a liability if you try to help those who defend you, I can forgive. Being able, and unwilling... you have chosen death.

Do you know what your sin is Captain?
Aww Hell. I'm a big fan of all seven.

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:13 AM

STORYMARK

Personally, I support the right to own guns, but I also think they should be registered, and that ownership should involve proper education.

The problem is, there are too many loons on either side of the debate (which is true in any issue these days, it seems). On the one hand, you have those who want all guns banned, which is impractical and a violation of our rights. On the other, you have the people who think they need several machine guns or assault rifles for personal defense, many of whome are just flat-out gun fetishists.

I thought things were doing pretty well for a while - then Bush decided to (against the advice of just about every agency but the NRA) let assault rifles off the banned list. Since then, I know at least 3 guys (who, though friends, I'd class as gun-fetishists) have bought assault rifles, which were unregistered, and converted them illegaly to fully-automatic. Now, these are guys I trust not to use them dangerously, but if I persoanlly know of 3 people to do this in the span of a few months, I shudder to think of who else might be working on simmilar projects.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:54 PM

WORKEROFEVIL

Quote:
Originally posted by Lancer:
their is nothing unChristlike about defending yourself

In regards to this statement, defending yourself kind of its unChristlike. He says if someone hits you, turn the other cheek. If someone tries to take your shirt give your coat, too. Supposedly you'll be provided with the riches you deserve in Heaven. Meanwhile, you'll be cold and bruised here on Earth, but too bad.

As to the gun issue, I think we need more regulation on who can get guns. In order to purchase a gun, you should first be required to take a training course in gun safety and proper use. Someone included a list of cases of people defending themselves with guns. The list of accidental shootings is much, much longer. Safety is vital when it comes to guns. Also, a handgun is sufficient for defending yourself. There's no rational reason to own an assault rifle. People just want them because they think they're fun and cool and oh so destructive. Personally, I'd love to see ALL guns completely eradicated. Also all bombs and missiles and such. Seeing as I'm not an idiot, I know that won't happen so I'd at least like to see more control over the sale of guns. Mandatory training courses (as said above), background checks, and registration that needs to be updated every year. This is so people can't shoot someone and then claim that there gun was stolen months ago they just hadn't gotten around to reporting it. There's my two cents.

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 2:01 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

The meaning of the Right to Bear Arms

Hello all,

The Constitution was written with a rather interesting provision. It says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Now, most people who pay attention to my posts know that I am an advocate of gun (and other) weapon ownership. They know that I have carried a weapon for sport and defense. They know I feel strongly about the right of the individual to protect themselves.

However, given all of these facts... I also must admit that the Constitution appears to grant citizens the right to keep and bear arms only by an accident of wording. I do not believe the federalists intended to protect the right of individuals to have armaments or firearms. I also do not believe it occurred to them that such a right would need protecting. I honestly think they were referring to actual state-run militias when they wrote the second ammendment.

Now, I can't believe very many (if any) of the Federalists who wrote the constitution thought that a man ought to be disallowed to carry a rifle for hunting, or a dirk or pistol for defense. But because the idea of completely disarming the population was so far from their minds, I really feel the 2nd ammendment only protects this right entirely by accident. Because of this, I fear for our right to keep and bear arms, because we are one interpretation ruling away from losing it.

What do you all think?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I think fire arms does more harm then good, if your a hunter you should only be able to borrow a gun, and return it after your finished using it for hunting purposes only.

As for the country having an armed Milita, its useless, actually it could be considered a joke and everytime I hear someone make a statement that they need a gun because they might have to protect themselves from the government I laugh, maybe back in the 17 and 1800's that would have worked, but lets say a pistol or a shot gun going up against a tank or a machine gun its just not going to do much good.

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:59 PM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?

Quote:

My philosophy on guns is this:

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

god speak
It is about personal power. Someone threatening you can have the power to take away your life and others you may love. I have no belief system which makes me think this person has that right. You can stay sober and not drive drunk but that doesn’t prevent someone else from plowing into your car after a few martinis. Using tools to protect ourselves is ancient and guns are just another form. We shouldn’t strip ourselves of civil power, it has been done enough.

Quote:

As for the country having an armed Milita, its useless, actually it could be considered a joke and everytime I hear someone make a statement that they need a gun because they might have to protect themselves from the government I laugh, maybe back in the 17 and 1800's that would have worked, but lets say a pistol or a shot gun going up against a tank or a machine gun its just not going to do much good.

and for those FOR banning guns:

“We the people” is right Fremd. If there is truly a need to bear arms and use them against the government. Wouldn’t it be a majority rule situation? Weren’t they imagining the majority of people in the country disagree with the minority that’s in power.

Serious evidence of a tyrannical gov’t would result in public outrage, followed by civil unrest. ...and could possibly be solved without countrymen firing upon one another. But just the government itself. Wouldn’t a gov’t divide into different factions and break apart depending on the degree of tyranny and the number of people involved. How many members of the military do you think are gonna run raids into neighborhoods and execute bombing missions against towns if the majority disagrees. The entire military is not brainwashed. Our military is so privatized citizens have key knowledge of many systems. Yes, third world countries are still having governments run wild in recent times. Well for one, MOST of the citizens don’t have guns…. money, knowledge, and sometimes food. Not the case here.

So... if it was balanced opposition, it would be a civil war. There again a need for personal protection. Say the demos and repubs just started a war for some unknown reason. It seems then in a case of civil war, resources would then divide, maybe unevenly. This includes defense. I highly doubt that neighborhood enthusiasts are gonna have to suit up and defend themselves against tanks. But face-to-face personal confrontations are likely to happen in a multitude of scenarios involving a breakdown of a gov’t. U either have the power or you don’t.

I don’t even want to imagine that ever happening and it IS real hard sitting in AC and on the PC. I just would hate to legislate something that could prevent a future generation from having personal protection.

Now there are possible scenarios for extreme needs for personal firearms. Any major catastrophic natural disaster (pick your favorite) could warrant the need. 10 cases of food 80 people to feed. Etc etc etc……

Oh… I am a liberal and have one gun.

Wha?!?... *sniff sniff* OH.... IM ON FIRE!!!

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:25 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"I thought things were doing pretty well for a while - then Bush decided to (against the advice of just about every agency but the NRA) let assault rifles off the banned list. Since then, I know at least 3 guys (who, though friends, I'd class as gun-fetishists) have bought assault rifles, which were unregistered, and converted them illegaly to fully-automatic. Now, these are guys I trust not to use them dangerously, but if I persoanlly know of 3 people to do this in the span of a few months, I shudder to think of who else might be working on simmilar projects."

***THE ASSAULT RIFLE BAN***

Here's the thing about assault rifles... They weren't banned by the Assault Rifle Ban. Rifles that bear a physical resemblance to certain Assault Rifles were banned from import, and native Rifles that bore a physical resemblance to certain Assault Rifles were required to look less like certain Assault Rifles and have smaller magazines.

I'll stop here to educate the public. ;-) Any semiautomatic weapon can be modified to fire in fully automatic mode by someone who knows what they are doing. This includes ordinary pistols which were NEVER designed for that purpose. You can take a Colt Pistol manufactured in 1911 and modify it to be fully automatic. However, that doesn't make all semiautomatic weapons assault rifles. If you gave a Brady Bill 'assault rifle' to any military organization on the planet and called it an Assault Rifle, you'd get laughed at. As an example of the ludicrousness of the Assault Weapons Ban, look at the Mini-14. The Ruger company makes a rifle called the Mini-14 (and Mini-30) which is frequently used for hunting. But if you change the styling of the stock and put a large magazine on it, it looks more threatening and becomes banned. The common man now thinks of it as an 'Assault Rifle,' some mythical weapon of war designed to smite the masses. A rifle is a rifle. Only a weapon manufactured as a fully automatic rifle can be classed as an Assault Rifle, and only a human being can choose to make any rifle dangerous. 'Scary' appearance and magazine size have nothing to do with it.

The only practical restriction placed by the Assault Rifle Ban was the limit of weapons magazine manufacture and import to magazines with a 10 cartridge capacity. This made sense from the point of view that a maniac with a rifle who opened fire in a public place was limited to killing 10 people before having to reload. Except that maniacs with rifles who open fire in public places have been known to reload, even with high capacity magazines. The limiting factor on armed maniacs in public places is armed non-maniacs in public places.

***THE TRUE NATURE OF GUN CONTROL***

I used to be an advocate of gun control. I used to think that people should have to take classes and pass tests on gun safety before being allowed to own guns. I also used to think that certain guns should be withheld from the public. Fully automatic weapons don't seem necessary for the common citizen (though I can attest to firing legal automatics, and they are a lot of fun to shoot... Just darned expensive.)

But it became clear to me that gun-control advocates were not interested in achieving safe gun use. They were rather interested in eliminating gun use entirely. This forced me to abandon my reasonable position on the subject and stand on the opposite end of the spectrum. A gun safety test could be engineered in such a way as to make it difficult to pass, as opposed to making sure the test-taker knew gun safety. A limit on one type of firearm could begin the slippery slope to banning them all.

If I believed that gun-control advocates wanted to protect my right to be armed, then I would support them. But that is not their interest. They want to 'chip away' at gun ownership until it is impossible to own guns. They want to be sure that only criminals are armed. They cite as a perfect model the United Kingdom, where violent crime is up, but murders are down. A country where it is considered uncivilized to use any weapon in your defense, be it club, knife, scissors, or whatever. I don't think I want to be a pinata for the common good.

***THE REVOLTING CITIZEN***

Finally, the idea of the citizen as a control on the government has been raised here and scoffed at. Let me be clear that if the civilians of the US lined up at one end of the street and the military lined up at the other, and they started trying to kill each other... The civilians would lose. But that's not how rebellions are fought.

Rebellions are not often won because the rebels have better weapons than the government. They are won most often because Soldier Joe doesn't like being forced to gun down his neighbors. I can't think of any American Revolution in recent memory that was won because the rebels had superior firepower. More often the citizens stand up, dish out some casualties, take some casualties, and the government loses the support of their military. Once this happens, the citizens can 'win' the war, and the previous leadership usually flees the country along with a lot of public funds.

For this reason, the goal of any rebellion is to sustain itself, inflict casualties, destroy infrastructure, make political statements, take casualties, and spin the casualties you take in a way that demonizes the government and helps recruitment. Few rebels imagine themselves physically overpowering the military on a large scale. They only imagine themselves becoming painful and difficult enough to divide the government upon itself. In some cases, they can convince the government to surrender a portion of its territory to the rebels rather than continue a costly and unpopular conflict. (The United States came to exist this way.)

But perhaps someone else is aware of situations where the rebels won because they had superior technology and firepower, and defeated the standing army of the existing government?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:34 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Well I'm not reading any of this thread (I need sleep), but since I was asked what I think in the first post, which I did read, I shall answer.

The United States Supreme Court held that a certain type of weapon was not protected under the Second Amendment because it could not be shown to be necessary or indeed helpful in the maintenance of the militia.

The only interpretation I can take from that is that a weapon is only protected if it helps the militia, and the Supreme Court has never overturned that ruling. Since the Militia is dead and gone it seems like the Second Amendment is as dead and gone as the 3/5ths compromise.

However lesser courts have gone in all kinds of directions.

Personally I think we have to, first and foremost, remember what "arms" means. If we say that we simply have the flat out right to bear arms we have a problem, because "arms" covers everything from sharp sticks to ICBMs.

No one I know of thinks we should all walk around with a suitcase nuke or be able to take out Paris at a moments notice with just the push of a button. Similarly I doubt that there is a strong movement to do away with forks and steak knives just because they happen to be deadly weapons in even the least experienced hands.

So there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and the question is where.

I, personally, like guns, I really do. I love the way they feel in your hands and the satisfaction of actually destroying what you were aiming at, but I'm not sure I see the use of some of the bigger ones.

You can go out hunting and kill anything that lives without a gun, if you are so incompetent as to need a firearm I fail to see the sport in killing it, if you're doing it for food you still don't need a gun to do it.

But what I really don't understand is why someone would want some of the arsenals they take with them to kill something that can't hurt them except at very close range. A bow will do the trick nicely, a simple rifle even better, enough firepower to clear a hamlet is overkill.

I see the same thing with self defense, if you're getting into a position where you need a semi-automatic rifle and a hell of a lot of bullets I don't think you'll make it out even with the gun because if you can't get them all in 50 shots what makes you think you'll live to see 200?

So it seems to me that there is a level of gun where it really isn't needed for civilians. I still like those guns, but I'd be quite content to keep all of the ammunition for such guns safely locked up in firing ranges and other such regulated places and have it be illegal to take any of the ammunition out of the place.

You don't need any kind of gun to feed yourself, and there is a level of gun that you don't need to defend yourself, so the only reason to have it (other than the less than honest ones) is sport, and for that you don't need the ability to carry the ammo with you anywhere other than a range or competition.

-

I have a feeling an animal rights activist will want to kill me for saying that you don't need to use guns, and I do agree that blowing an animal's brains out is probably more polite than killing it in any other way, but it doesn't change the fact that some people hunt very effectively with bows and enough people do it that there is a bow season. Yeah, the things they kill, deer mostly I think, probably do suffer more, but that's a complexity I'll think on another time.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:
It is about personal power. Someone threatening you can have the power to take away your life and others you may love. I have no belief system which makes me think this person has that right. You can stay sober and not drive drunk but that doesn’t prevent someone else from plowing into your car after a few martinis. Using tools to protect ourselves is ancient and guns are just another form. We shouldn’t strip ourselves of civil power, it has been done enough.

So it's okay to drink and drive because someone else might? Excuse me for thinking thats a little insane.

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisTheCynic:
Yeah, the things they kill, deer mostly I think, probably do suffer more, but that's a complexity I'll think on another time.

I doubt it. A bow would cause no more suffering than a bullet if used correctly, and it's just as easy to incorrectly operate a gun to cause a slow and painful death.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:21 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:
It is about personal power. Someone threatening you can have the power to take away your life and others you may love. I have no belief system which makes me think this person has that right. You can stay sober and not drive drunk but that doesn’t prevent someone else from plowing into your car after a few martinis. Using tools to protect ourselves is ancient and guns are just another form. We shouldn’t strip ourselves of civil power, it has been done enough.
So it's okay to drink and drive because someone else might? Excuse me for thinking thats a little insane.

An interesting take...
To elaborate... No matter how good YOU are, someone else does not have to be. Does not mean YOU have to reduce your own level of civil responsibility. Just like I will not reduce my level of funds in my savings account, but Johnny crack-head on the street just might. So, I won't drink and drive 'cause I have a hunch someone else is. But, I'll prepare myself for a bad confrontation with another person. Why should we prevent someone from doing that?

Since u cannot control others actions, you must take control of what you can. No, not alliance type control... But maybe some other human being's actions and how that may affect you living or NOT. U may be able to prevent someone from shooting you by having a gun. Without having a gun you might get shot. Just like driving there are no guarantees when dealing with guns. But people buy Volvos to prepare for the worse.

Wha?!?... *sniff sniff* OH.... IM ON FIRE!!!

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:26 AM

Volvos aren't particularly safe, actually, so maybe it's the false illusion of safety they want, not the safety itself.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:26 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hi all,

I'm not so sure about this 'hunting with a bow' argument. Sure, you can hunt with a bow, a spear, or even a blunt stick.

But while I am not a hunter, I have to believe that there is a practical reason the western world switched to firearms as far back as 200 years ago. These were people who hunted for food and pelts. They preferred a musket. I have to believe there were some inherent advantages to the firearm, and I'm not prepared to call these people incompetant because they abandoned the bow.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:34 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"if you can't get them all in 50 shots what makes you think you'll live to see 200?

So it seems to me that there is a level of gun where it really isn't needed for civilians."

I have to agree on principle here. I think the purpose of defense does not require anything more advanced than a single-action revolver. I've often believed that it is almost always the first couple of bullets, and almost never the last couple of bullets, that make the difference in a firefight.

That having been said, I still oppose all these sound and logical proposed limits on firearms. This is because gun control isn't about safe gun use. It's about no gun use. If the gun control advocates wanted to give me a guaranteed minimum level of gun ownership, I'd be more keen to support them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:44 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I have no problem with people owning rifles or shot guns. But no one can convince me that there is any reason to own a handgun or an automatic weapon.

You do not hunt for food with either. The only thing you would kill with these types of weapons ia another human being. (Oh I grant you, a snake-as my brother used to do with his handgun)

And when the writers of the constituion gave us the "right to bear arms" I am certain they were not referencing ICBM or bazookas.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:16 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I have no problem with people owning rifles or shot guns. But no one can convince me that there is any reason to own a handgun or an automatic weapon."

Well, it's pretty ungainly to carry a double-barrel shotgun everywhere to ward off muggers, but hey, people used to carry three-foot-long swords everywhere they went, so I'm game.

Is this the minimum level of gun ownership you're prepared to grant?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:21 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
[B
Is this the minimum level of gun ownership you're prepared to grant?

I am not sure one should be carrying a gun to ward off a mugger. Sounds like a recipe for the stupid leading the stupid.

And yes, at least until I can be convinced there is a reason for a civilan to own anything else.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:28 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well, seems to me I'm less likely a target of a mugging if I've got a shotgun slung over my shoulder. (Or a revolver on my hip, but it seems you prefer ungainly weapons.)

Well, I can shoot man and beast with a shotgun, as necessary. I can also clobber with the stock. It's pretty versatile.

If you want to lobby for a constitutional ammendment to secure my right to own and carry a shotgun wherever I go, I'll get behind you.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:33 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I am not going to lobby for your right to carry anything.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:59 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

And that's why I don't support gun control, however reasonable.

The goal is never to limit the weapons I can carry. It is to eliminate the weapons I can carry.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:38 AM

Haven't the time to read all the posts, but I thought I'd throw this in to stir the pot.

Quote:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/specialreports/79388.php

From the Arizona Daily Star

Tucson, Arizona

Published: 06.12.2005

They're pulled from backyard pools and bathtubs each year, tiny limp bodies, blue and not breathing.

A young life can vanish quickly under water. A survivor can endure a lifetime of disabilities. Either way, families are torn apart by an almost always preventable tragedy.

Standard summer companions in our desert climate, swimming pools can be deadlier for children than guns. A child is 100 times more likely to die in a swimming accident than in gunplay, writes Steven D. Levitt, University of Chicago economics professor and best-selling author.

Levitt analyzed child deaths from residential swimming pools and guns and found one child under 10 drowns annually for every 11,000 pools. By comparison, one child under 10 each year is killed by a gun for every 1 million guns, according to his research, outlined in a new book "Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side to Everything," which he co-wrote with journalist Stephen J. Dubner.
In part because they are so familiar, swimming pools are less frightening than guns, Levitt writes.

But the danger is clear - drowning is the leading cause of accidental death for children younger than 5 in Arizona and the second-leading cause of injury-related death nationally among children younger than 15.

Water kills an average of three children each year in Tucson and, even with proper fences, swimming lessons and caution, danger lurks.
"Living with a swimming pool in your back yard is like living next to the Grand Canyon," said Dr. Bob Berg, a pediatric intensive specialist at University Medical Center and a UA professor. "You should never feel comfortable there."

So where's the drive to ban backyard swimming pools? They kill more kids than guns!

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:50 AM

EMMARIGBY

Hhhm, I see where you're going with this. And yet, call me crazy but I'm not as afraid of being attacked by a back-yard swimming pool!

________________________________

Hisssssss!

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaRigby:
Hhhm, I see where you're going with this. And yet, call me crazy but I'm not as afraid of being attacked by a back-yard swimming pool!

So were you planning to respond to the article's argument? Because it didn't ref attacks, it talked about danger to children. One of the key components of the gun-control/ban argument is the danger that firearms pose to children. This article points out that backyard pools are far more dangerous. My point: people accept the risk of the pool (even though it may kill their kids), but not the risk of a gun in the home.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 12:14 PM

EMMARIGBY

My apologies, you are right, I have not read the whole of this thread, just jumped in at the end because I spotted a post in the linear thread that leapt out at me. I'm sorry if I went off your original topic. I shall now butt out. However, I still don't think (after reading the thread) that my comment was entirely inapproprate. You cannot really only consider the danger of guns to children and disregard the threat to everyone else.

Sorry, that was supposed to be me shutting up. I'm off to bed now.

________________________________

Hisssssss!

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 1:00 PM

It's okay to let nutters have guns so they can kill children in school because negligent parents let their kids die in swimming pools.

Yeah there's some sort of logic there.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 1:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
It's okay to let nutters have guns so they can kill children in school because negligent parents let their kids die in swimming pools.

Yeah there's some sort of logic there.

Well, I love how you ascribed advocacy of gun ownership to me, when I didn't even mention a position one way or the other. And I like how you sensationalized the issue while completely missing the point I was making. My point was simply this: people kick up a fuss over guns because they kill kids, but don't over pools, which are statistically more likely to kill kids. Now why would that be? I was trying to prompt discussion of that phenomenon, not make a case for or against private firearms ownership. How about next time you think about what I'm actually saying, instead of reacting emotionally to what you think I might be saying.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 1:18 PM