REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Dead Terrorists

POSTED BY: HERO
UPDATED: Thursday, June 29, 2006 20:11
SHORT URL:
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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I'm serious--why should I not be glad that he's gone? If for no other reason than that he had it coming to him.


Being the man Zarqawi was, he was asking for death. It's like getting rid of a cold virus; it needs to be done, but to take gladdness or even joy from another man's death is to give up some part of your humanity, at least that would be my reason.

If Mal had killed the Operative, there would have been that movie-moment of "Yeah! That's what you get- JERK!!!" But life and change and growth are what we should all be aiming at being glad for.

*Buddhist rant over*

Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Kaneman,

You apprently didn't read my abbreviated list of Iraq's 'turning points'. My favorite is Fallujah. Remember? Taking it, way back in 2004, was going to 'break the back' of the insurgency.
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !
Iraq had turned yet another corner !
... and is now going in circles

Originally posted by kaneman:
Not all of Iraq..just the terrorist. Most little critters with no where to run or hide tend to go in circles...or hide in little holes in the floor of shacks with urine in their pants.



And how's that working for you?

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hero, you're arguing in circles. You say that UN resoultions might be used to justify the war then you say they hold no standing. You say that war is internationally constricted by treaties and practicies and then you say that only an internal vote is needed to justify war. Stripping your argument of blather, it boils down to this...
Quote:

I suggest the war was legal only because Congress voted to authorize military action*.... Now if another power... subsequently invades and occupies the United States then as happened following World War II they can dictate justice by holding the American leaders accountable to their own arbitrary standards that may or may not have existed prior to the conflict.
So in your view if Germany had won WWII you would agree that it was a legal war. You would also agree that being a "legal" war (duly approved by the German political system and enforced by victory) that killing civilians would also be justified. In other words, might makes right. Democracy, liberty and the rule of law don't come into it. Just as I thought. Scratch a neocon and you'll find a Nazi.


*With conditions attached which were not met by the President

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:03 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by chrisisall:

If Mal had killed the Operative, there would have been that movie-moment of "Yeah! That's what you get- JERK!!!" But life and change and growth are what we should all be aiming at being glad for.

*Buddhist rant over*




Why didn't the military think of that? If they had popped Zarqawi in the throat, dislocated his shoulders, and forced him to watch his own atrocities, I'm sure he would have renounced the Jihad and dissapeared.
Posters may not necessarily be celebrating Zarqawi's death. Perhaps they are celebrating the potential lives saved now that there is one less murderer around.
I believe in another thread you posted about your support of the death penalty. Why the sudden contradiction?

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:22 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

I believe in another thread you posted about your support of the death penalty. Why the sudden contradiction?


I support the use of vitamin-C, even though it aids in shortening the life of a cold virus too, what's your point?

Anything you must do to another human being that you wouldn't want a child to watch should be no cause for celebration.
Celebrating freedom from a bad situation is entirely welcome and understandable.

Seems like you're de-lurking to get yourself stirred up.

Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, might makes right. Democracy, liberty and the rule of law don't come into it.

I believe that was Hero's whole point; we are the might and we are right. Those dogs that copy us without prior written permission are wrong.

Simplifying Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:36 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, might makes right. Democracy, liberty and the rule of law don't come into it.

I believe that was Hero's whole point; we are the might and we are right. Those dogs that copy us without prior written permission are wrong.

Simplifying Chrisisall



So by that logic, when the day comes and your little empire is beaten down and put in its place, that will be all and good too...

Hope for the future




" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:41 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

So by that logic, when the day comes and your little empire is beaten down and put in its place, that will be all and good too...

Hope for the future


lol, Yes, mon, it's all good, all da time.



"Woo-hoo, law of the jungle, you're on your own..." Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 8:24 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Hero,

You seem to have a good idea of what it takes to overcome a major conflict...it's not something that just happens over night...yada yada...'you can't be wishy washy'...'you have to stay the course'

How come your so much better informed than our Administration was when they told us this might take a few weeks, and at the most 6 months?

You make it sound plainly obvious how ridiculous that would be...

yet you defend them at every turn(of the corner)

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Friday, June 9, 2006 8:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SignyM,

Once again you have masterfully analyzed the illogic of Hero's own position. BRAVO !!


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Friday, June 9, 2006 8:59 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by chrisisall:
I support the use of vitamin-C, even though it aids in shortening the life of a cold virus too, what's your point?



Thanks for the clarification. You see the necessity of his death but are against celebrating his death. That I can completely understand. Isn't it great that I can ask a question of you and you can answer it and both of us come away from the discussion a little wiser.

Quote:


Seems like you're de-lurking to get yourself stirred up.



Well, at least I came away a little wiser from the exchange.



De-lurking to stir stuff up (but in a good way).

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Friday, June 9, 2006 9:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:


De-lurking to stir stuff up (but in a good way).

Cool, my Browncoat brother.

Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 10:27 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, might makes right. Democracy, liberty and the rule of law don't come into it.

I believe that was Hero's whole point; we are the might and we are right. Those dogs that copy us without prior written permission are wrong.

Simplifying Chrisisall

Hey Chris, I think you're a little off here. I mean, from yours and Signy's point of view, what you say makes sense, but it ain't what Hero's thinking.

Just as it ain't paranoia when they're actually out to get you, it ain't totalitarianism when your government is actually right. Hero's position is that America is a little bit infallible when it comes to going to war. We simply don't do it for the wrong reasons, it's not possible. Viet Nam really was necessary to keep the communists from overrunning the Earth, and this War on Terror is equally necessary to keep Bin Ladden out of the White House.

What's ironic is that, really, it's America's progressive past that justifies Hero's jingoism. American liberalism, freeing slaves, granting women the right to vote, the civil rights movement, constitutional democracy itself, these are the things that make Americans feel so good about this country. We are the good guys, and because we are so good, we are incapable of going to war for the wrong reasons. The politicians may try to manipulate us, but it is our national character that demanded that we do something about the terrorists and it is our national character that drove us to war in Iraq.

Fascists, I'm learning, never have the slightest clue that they're fascists; as far as they're conserned they're just looking at the harsh realities of life and supporting those policies that manfully face up to the tough decisions we have to make in an imperfect world.

Might doesn't make right, being American makes right.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 10:42 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

What's ironic is that, really, it's America's progressive past that justifies Hero's jingoism. American liberalism, freeing slaves, granting women the right to vote, the civil rights movement, constitutional democracy itself, these are the things that make Americans feel so good about this country. We are the good guys, and because we are so good, we are incapable of going to war for the wrong reasons.

Good analysis, HK.
This country is capable of so much, and has had so many just triumphs. It's like Superman punching a normal human, "No! He could NEVER do THAT!! He's Superman!"
Losing sight of possibly making the wrong decisions is the worst, most destructive trait of a noble people. And it makes us all the more noble as a Nation, if we can acknowledge this.

But first, this great Nation and it's noble people need heroic leaders, and at the moment, the people don't have a lot of control over that.

But I guess that a whole 'nother thread.



Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 10:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Now a personal note: Yesterday was a great day for America when we bombed and killed an important Al Queda leader. It was a bittersweet victory for us locally as I have just learned that yesterday a City police officer called to active service in Iraq was killed in action. He was a good man, devoted husband and father, and a proud public servant. He believed in the mission and was proud to be called. He will be missed. I'm closing my part in this discussion out of respect for him. I will observe silence on this board until after the funeral. I want to thank those of you of all sides who engage in this spirited debate. I think the honost dialogue of those who choose to disagree is a testiment to the system our soldiers are dying to serve.
H



Sorry for your loss, Hero. Thanks to and prayers for your friend.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Friday, June 9, 2006 11:01 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by HKCavalier:

We are the good guys, and because we are so good, we are incapable of going to war for the wrong reasons.



I believe that is the introduction to Bin Laden's recruitment manual. Only it's probably not in English.

Quote:


...Fascists, I'm learning, never have the slightest clue that they're fascists; as far as they're conserned they're just looking at the harsh realities of life and supporting those policies that manfully face up to the tough decisions we have to make in an imperfect world.



Wow! I couldn't agree more. About the fascists not realizing they are fascists part.

Quote:


Might doesn't make right, being American makes right.



Careful now, the Iraqi insurgency does not need proof from an American to back up their "ridiculous" claims.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 11:09 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Being the man Zarqawi was, he was asking for death. It's like getting rid of a cold virus; it needs to be done, but to take gladdness or even joy from another man's death is to give up some part of your humanity, at least that would be my reason.

If Mal had killed the Operative, there would have been that movie-moment of "Yeah! That's what you get- JERK!!!" But life and change and growth are what we should all be aiming at being glad for.

*Buddhist rant over*

Chrisisall



I agree that what we should all be hoping for is change and growth or, to put it in the terms of my religion, the "fruit of repentance". However, I also believe (unpopular as this may be) that there are just some things a person can do to forfeit their right to draw air--and the repeated, gleeful murder of innocents certainly qualifies.

Besides which, can you really expect the kind of growth and change you describe from someone who doesn't follow the eightfold path?

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 11:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I also believe (unpopular as this may be) that there are just some things a person can do to forfeit their right to draw air--and the repeated, gleeful murder of innocents certainly qualifies.


I don't think of it as a forfeiting their right to live, rather, you're giving them what they ask for. A loving person is asking to be loved, a killing person is asking...well, you know the rest.

May his next life be cleansed of hate.

What eightfold path? Chrisisall

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Friday, June 9, 2006 1:15 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

there are just some things a person can do to forfeit their right to draw air--and the repeated, gleeful murder of innocents certainly qualifies.


Does this also apply to the Abu Ghraib/other detention centers torture scandals?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Friday, June 9, 2006 1:18 PM

CAUSAL


Knew that would come up. Unfortunately for those who would have this forum be a referendum on the Bush administration, I will just leave it here: Zarqawi's dead and I'm happy, because he had it coming.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 2:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Causal,

It wouldn't have been a referendum on dubya except Zero chose to lead off with this:
Quote:

"Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom's victory." G.W. Bush, 2002.


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Friday, June 9, 2006 2:57 PM

CAUSAL


Well, you've got me there. But I'm still glad he's dead.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Now a personal note: Yesterday was a great day for America when we bombed and killed an important Al Queda leader. It was a bittersweet victory for us locally as I have just learned that yesterday a City police officer called to active service in Iraq was killed in action. He was a good man, devoted husband and father, and a proud public servant. He believed in the mission and was proud to be called. He will be missed. I'm closing my part in this discussion out of respect for him. I will observe silence on this board until after the funeral. I want to thank those of you of all sides who engage in this spirited debate. I think the honost dialogue of those who choose to disagree is a testiment to the system our soldiers are dying to serve.- H


Sorry for your loss, Hero. Thanks to and prayers for your friend.-Geezer

I noticed that Hero didn't say that this was a friend. Am I the only one who thinks that Hero's attendance at war dead funerals is just a little... creepy?


---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I thought 'creepy' too, and also opportunistic. This is not the first time he's mentioned this. The last time I recall he made some insinuating comment about the widow.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I noticed that Hero didn't say that this was a friend. Am I the only one who thinks that Hero's attendance at war dead funerals is just a little... creepy?



He apparently knew him well enough to know that he was "...a good man, devoted husband and father, and a proud public servant. He believed in the mission and was proud to be called". No. I don't consider this creepy. I consider it... respectful. Although I never knew this man personally, I have known others like him, and also respect him and his kind.


"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Causal,

It wouldn't have been a referendum on dubya except Zero chose to lead off with this:
Quote:

"Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom's victory." G.W. Bush, 2002.




You'd rather see freedom's defeat?

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh puhlleeeeze.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:48 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Oh puhlleeeeze.


Yep.

Hero's friend died, my father and several relatives spent years fighting in WWII, my brother-in-law and many of my friends died in Vietnam, and I spent a year there...just so you could have the right to be sarcastic without the secret police taking you off to a cell and putting a bullet in your head. You're welcome.

Freedom isn't free. Too bad you don't realize that fact. But that's your right too. Consider how many people died for your right to be cutesy.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:27 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Oh puhlleeeeze.


Yep.

Hero's friend died, my father and several relatives spent years fighting in WWII, my brother-in-law and many of my friends died in Vietnam, and I spent a year there...just so you could have the right to be sarcastic without the secret police taking you off to a cell and putting a bullet in your head. You're welcome.

Freedom isn't free. Too bad you don't realize that fact. But that's your right too. Consider how many people died for your right to be cutesy.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

Oh, my god! I'm sorry but the right to be sarcastic is enjoyed in countries all over the globe; countries without our military track record; countries that never dropped a single nuke or occupied a single country.

It's the same crazed argument as Hero's; if not for our military adventurism in Iraq, Osama would be President. There may very well be necessary wars, but this debacle in Iraq is not one of 'em! Destroying Iraq is not guaranteeing anyone's right to be sarcastic but yours.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You'd rather see freedom's defeat?
Typical straw-man. Geezer, tsk tsk, We've spoken about ths before. Now go to the sink and don't come back until your rhetoric is clean!

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Hero's friend died, my father and several relatives spent years fighting in WWII, my brother-in-law and many of my friends died in Vietnam, and I spent a year there...just so you could have the right to be sarcastic without the secret police taking you off to a cell and putting a bullet in your head. You're welcome.
Ah there's the rub. Geezer, I hate to pop your bubble but Vietnam, like Iraq didn't guarantee anyone's freedom. Vietnam DID eventually go Communist and what happened?


..... Nothing. Yep- nothing. The dominoes didn't fall. Japan wasn't threatened. Shipping wasn't endangered. The USA government wasn't overrun by gooks and slant-eyes. I sorrowfully conclude that the 50,000 American dead including your BIL... and the many hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese dead... was really all for nothing. And I reluctantly ask you to show me otherwise. Reluctantly because this (not Iraq or GW Bush) is what you've been arguing all along.


---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 4:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Ah there's the rub. Geezer, I hate to pop your bubble but Vietnam, like Iraq didn't guarantee anyone's freedom. Vietnam DID eventually go Communist and what happened?


..... Nothing. Yep- nothing. The dominoes didn't fall. Japan wasn't threatened. Shipping wasn't endangered. The USA government wasn't overrun by gooks and slant-eyes. I sorrowfully conclude that the 50,000 American dead including your BIL... and the many hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese dead... was really all for nothing. And I reluctantly ask you to show me otherwise. Reluctantly because this (not Iraq or GW Bush) is what you've been arguing all along.



Well, first off there is the concept that the very act of fighting for something worthwhile has a value of its own, regardless of the outcome.

You also have to wonder how many Communist insurgencies didn't get off the ground because the Soviet Union and China were spending all their trouble-making budgets in Vietnam. If we'd just decided in 1960 not to fight there maybe the dominoes would have fallen. Maybe that 15 year delay - that show of resolve - kept the chain reaction from starting.



"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:25 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Maybe that 15 year delay - that show of resolve - kept the chain reaction from starting.

Then why didn't Communism 'beating' Capitalism even given its resolve not kick start more revolutions? If it can happen there why not here sort of thing?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:03 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Causal,

It wouldn't have been a referendum on dubya except Zero chose to lead off with this:
Quote:

"Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom's victory." G.W. Bush, 2002.




You'd rather see freedom's defeat?

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"



I think either way freedom gets defeated here, that is not what this war is about.

al-Qaeda and these other groups wouldn't exist if there was the freedom to stand up against the system in countrys like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc

Islamic Jihad had it's start as trying to form an opposition political party in Egypt, Bin Laden was chased from Saudi Arabia for talking about reforming politics there.....

US foreign policy ( post second world war ) has been instrumental in keeping dictators and despots in power all over the world, money, intell, military assistance, etc has eroded any and all oppostion to the guy the White House picked to run that country... with two exceptions Cuba where the threw Batista out and managed to resist the aftermath, and Iran where the US overthrew an elected government to put the Shah back in who with US aid, wiped out all opposition but the mullahs who eventually took power.

And look at the relations the US has with either of those countrys...

and the sad thing is it didn't have to be that way, Castro and Cuba only went for Soviet aid after being threatened by the US ( the US has a long history of intervening in Cuba and backing ' their guy " no matter what an ass he is "

and Iran may have been brought around. The hostage crisis only demanded two things 1) the Shah be handed over for trial ( the US has made similar demands of other before and since ) and the US publicly states they wouldn't step in and try to reinstall " their guy " again... of course you did neither

freedom is also determining the path for ones own country WITHOUT foreign interferrance. If freedom was the objective, history would not have played out like this. It is not the fault of the soldiers on either side.... they have all bought a story, a line, propaganda.




" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:08 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


I notice that the taboo of publishing pictures of dead / captured soldiers is being ignored again ?

I suppose the objectors will only come out when its video of US marines hanging from lamp posts or some such thing.




" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Then why didn't Communism 'beating' Capitalism even given its resolve not kick start more revolutions? If it can happen there why not here sort of thing?



Perhaps because by 1975 people had seen enough of Communism in the real world to know that it didn't deliver on its promise of a worker's paradise. I'm not sure if this would have been the case in the early '60s.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 4:37 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I notice that the taboo of publishing pictures of dead / captured soldiers is being ignored again ?

I suppose the objectors will only come out when its video of US marines hanging from lamp posts or some such thing.



Another attempt to demonize and de-humanize 'the enemy'. I suppose some will say it's the least we can do seeing as we got to see his killing of an innocent online, and that's what monsters deserve.
I wonder what the makers of the monster deserve, the same?
Once again; NO MAN'S KILLING SHOULD BE CELEBRATED!

But hey, maybe that's just me.


On holliday

Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Slick,

My parents survived Nazi Germany and Russia. My grandparents survived worse. They fought for their freedom and their country on their soil. They REALLY fought for freedom.

Vietnam? Iraq? That's just the US being a dick with other countries.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

My parents survived Nazi Germany and Russia. My grandparents survived worse. They fought for their freedom and their country on their soil. They REALLY fought for freedom.

Vietnam? Iraq? That's just the US being a dick with other countries.



I'm trying for a logical correlation as to how your ancestors fighting for freedom makes the US a dick, but can't find it.

My ancestors have fought for freedom in every American war since the Revolution, so does that trump your two generations when it comes to opinions about whether the US is a dick? No. It has noting to do with it.

I'm sure that SignyM could come up with the proper name for your argumentative fallacy.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:31 AM

HKCAVALIER


It's really interesting to see communication break down between two very intelligent people; that a frame of reference can be so foreign to us that someone's intellingent comments can seem like gibberish.

Y'know, there's this idea we use to justify our overseas militarism "Better to fight them on the other side of the world than on our doorstep (or words to that effect)." I'm thinking from Rue's point of view, and certainly from my own, that that sort of thinking is actually kinda immoral. No, morally, it ain't better, 'cause war should never ever be a mere expedient. It shouldn't be used simply to make life easier for anyone anywhere. War should be on your doorstep before you get involved, because otherwise you really don't know what you're doing; too much possibility of being, as Rue says, "a dick."

So Rue's parents fought for their freedom and knew they were doing so, while we fight in Iraq and two thirds of the country has no real appreciation for why we're there. Geezer, coming from a military family, you have an advantage over most of us when it comes to understanding a real, grounded context for American militarism--doesn't make you right, but it might make you wonder what a lot of us are smoking. Here at home we're completely dependent on where we get our information, whom we trust, etc. Having to trust someone else's assessment of why we're at war is an impossible situation.

Just some thoughts, don't pretend to have all the answers.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

I'm trying for a logical correlation as to how your ancestors fighting for freedom makes the US a dick, but can't find it.
The topic came up here:
Quote:

Yep.
Hero's friend died, my father and several relatives spent years fighting in WWII, my brother-in-law and many of my friends died in Vietnam, and I spent a year there...just so you could have the right to be sarcastic without the secret police taking you off to a cell and putting a bullet in your head.

You seem to think a pedigree is important. You seem to think that WWI, Vietnam, and (al la Zero) Iraq have something to do with US freedom. You can't even paste a coherent argument together. Good luck to you in your life.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:11 PM

KHYRON


Even when it comes to killing Zarqawi the US can't get its story straight:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5069186.stm

So first he died immediately during the strike, then it turns out he was alive and received medical treatment before dying (this version appearing only after eyewitnesses said he wasn't immediately dead). So why the need to lie in the first place, why say he died immediately when he didn't? I get the feeling that senior officials in the administration and military are so used to lying that they can't help it anymore.

Unless some of the numerous eyewitness reports that Zarqawi was severely beaten by US military before he died are true. In which case, you know, they did have a reason in trying to cover it up by lying about it.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:33 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


If they wanted information from him they would have tried to take him alive. But they bombed him, and when he survived the blast he died almost immediately under military care. My more cynical colleagues all said the same thing: "yeah, they shot him."

odd post (flakey connection)

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:41 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Y'know, there's this idea we use to justify our overseas militarism "Better to fight them on the other side of the world than on our doorstep (or words to that effect)." I'm thinking from Rue's point of view, and certainly from my own, that that sort of thinking is actually kinda immoral. No, morally, it ain't better, 'cause war should never ever be a mere expedient. It shouldn't be used simply to make life easier for anyone anywhere. War should be on your doorstep before you get involved, because otherwise you really don't know what you're doing; too much possibility of being, as Rue says, "a dick."



This might have been true when wars were fought by armies in uniform and the fastest they moved was by ship, rail, truck, or on foot. Nowadays, "the other side of the world" is at our doorstep, and the people who would do us harm can get here from anywhere in a day, and don't declare themselves enemies until after they have struck.

Without arguing whether they are the results of past US foreign policy or not, the fact remains that there are lots of people out there who would be perfectly happy to repeat 9/11 as often as possible. No matter what we do policy-wise from this point on, they'll be there for years on end.

We could take the absolute moral high ground and say we won't do anything premptive or retaliatory overseas, only try to stop attacks within our borders, and probably have a massive increase in terror attacks, not just against the US, but against any of our allies. Or, we can take the battle to them, either attacking their bases, or drawing them to places where we can kill them. I'll take the second option, and feel no moral qualms.

Quote:

So Rue's parents fought for their freedom and knew they were doing so, while we fight in Iraq and two thirds of the country has no real appreciation for why we're there. Geezer, coming from a military family, you have an advantage over most of us when it comes to understanding a real, grounded context for American militarism--doesn't make you right, but it might make you wonder what a lot of us are smoking.


Actually, I don't come from a military family. My ancestors were citizen-soldiers who joined up when our country was at war and went back to civilian life after the wars were over. I guess you could call it a patriotic family, although all the ones I've known have a healthy distrust of the government. Guess they were wise enough to realize that governments come and go, but the people and the country are worth fighting for.

Quote:

Here at home we're completely dependent on where we get our information, whom we trust, etc. Having to trust someone else's assessment of why we're at war is an impossible situation.


But you always have to trust - or at least consider - someone else's assessment. Unless you're omniscient (in which case, Hi God) you always get the story second/third/fifth hand and filtered through somebody's lens. If we all knew the truth, we wouldn't be having these discussions here. As it is, we gather what we can and internally filter it based on our past history, our morals, our beliefs, and our desires. We come to different conclusions. Time will tell.

Apropos of nothing... When I was in Vietnam in 1972-73 I worked a good bit with ARVN troops. It was pretty obvious by that time that the US was trying to disengage, but my Vietnamese counterparts told me they were still ready to fight for their freedom. I still feel bad about leaving them. As far as I'm concerned, the only "dicking around" we did there was in not finishing the job.

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
my Vietnamese counterparts told me they were still ready to fight for their freedom. I still feel bad about leaving them. As far as I'm concerned, the only "dicking around" we did there was in not finishing the job.


There'a a POV we rarely see. Thanks, G.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Good luck to you in your life.



Thanks. I consider I've had pretty good luck in the past 56 years. Hope you have good luck in your life too.

Unfortunately, our philosophies seem to be at odds on several points important to both of us. I really think that we've developed such an antipathy that we can't communicate civilly. I suggest a moritorium period to allow us to cool off. Maybe until July 1?

"If Darwin ain't Happy,
Ain't Nobody Happy"

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:14 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Darn. Double Post. Curse you, Technology. This wouldn't have happened with a reed pen and papyrus.

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:32 PM

KANEMAN


Bottom Line ...THE WAR IS LEGAL!!!

99 libs on the wall
99 libs on the wall
take one down........
that such a ball...

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You also have to wonder how many Communist insurgencies didn't get off the ground because the Soviet Union and China were spending all their trouble-making budgets in Vietnam. If we'd just decided in 1960 not to fight there maybe the dominoes would have fallen. Maybe that 15 year delay - that show of resolve - kept the chain reaction from starting.
There'a lot of supposition in there. You might also think that the US involvement in Vietnam and Iraq showed the rest of the world that we are not as committed to freedom as we claim, and that it bred a deep cynicism not only in a whole generation of Americans who learned that their government would lie (Gulf of Tonkin, WMD) to get them into a war, it also bred a deep mistrust in a whole generation of people around the world. That we paid and are still paying for our adventurism around the world with a backlash that is still reverberating today in the form of Evo, Hugo, Obrador, the entire Chinese population (many of whom cheered when the Trade Towers fell), and Putin.


---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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