Liberals can't defend America by Hero

Yes Hero, there there, anyone who doesn't think like you deserves to die because they're evil, you are on a directly line from god, have a lolly and please don't drible on the furniture.

If you weren't a conservative you'd be able to do something about it yourself, but you are a conservative so you'll need someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 9:36 AM

"mid-frequency active sonar." because is kills marinelife needlessly

it does mean as you suggest that ALL sonar and detection gear is pulled from use...

most deep water sonar uses low end frequencys, and as I understand it the US passive arrays are nearly foolproof

mid range freq gear just isn't nessersary at this time

this has been along time coming... and a third party assessment of the effects of this tech should have started years ago

nice rant by the way, does it really work for you in the courtroom ?

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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Monday, July 3, 2006 9:42 AM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now its perfectly safe for North Korea to sail its Chinese made, brand new, diesel-electric subs right up to our carriers and blow them out of the water ending American naval control of the Pacific Ocean.

Because, apparently, this particular tool is the ONLY way we have of figuring out what is going on under the sea. We're doomed. Doomed, I tell you. However did we manage to survive as a country without this particular type of sonar?

Why do you have so little faith in the competency of our armed forces, Hero?

* edit to change, "over the horizon" to "under the sea". brain fart. And to slightly modify the last sentence.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 9:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Yes Hero, there there, anyone who doesn't think like you deserves to die because they're evil, you are on a directly line from god, have a lolly and please don't drible on the furniture.

If you weren't a conservative you'd be able to do something about it yourself, but you are a conservative so you'll need someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you.

I just find the whole liberal/conservative thing ridiculous. Both have some good points. Both have bad ones. Both have fringe nutballs, both have moderates. To make one or the other out as the savior of the American political system is to ignore the reality that they're all in the pockets of the campaign contributors. What we have is an oligarchy. GOP/DNC is just window dressing.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:02 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

I just find the whole liberal/conservative thing ridiculous.

Me too.

But they're such convienient terms that there's no way to stop their usage.

Whatch gonna do Chrisisall

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

I just find the whole liberal/conservative thing ridiculous.
Me too.

But they're such convienient terms that there's no way to stop their usage.

Whatch gonna do Chrisisall

As do I...

I find my personnal beliefs go right and left depending on the issue

Thats is why I like the Canadian parliment vs the GOP/DNC system down south... in a minority government situation you have to build a consensus to achieve your goals ... this usually drops the nutjobs out of the picture and you find yourself travelling down the middle.

And the middle is a pretty nice place to be

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:08 AM

Pure Capitalism 'fails' just as surely as pure socialism or communism.

It's just Capitalism does it more insidiously, more silently. Communism quickly degrades into a totalitarian dictatorship, Capitilism slowly degrades into corporate Oligarchy.

But a thread like this (it's all their fault!) is uniquely conservative. Where ideology fails for the far right conservative, insults and blaming the other side for you short commings is sure to work.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Thats is why I like the Canadian parliment vs the GOP/DNC system down south... in a minority government situation you have to build a consensus to achieve your goals ... this usually drops the nutjobs out of the picture and you find yourself travelling down the middle.

Rather than setting them up as president

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Pure Capitalism 'fails' just as surely as pure socialism or communism.

It's just Capitalism does it more insidiously, more silently. Communism quickly degrades into a totalitarian dictatorship, Capitilism slowly degrades into corporate Oligarchy.

Absolutely right. In Amusing Ourselves To Death Neil Postman argues that we have very nearly arrived at the kind of society described in Brave New World--but with television as the great opiate, not "soma". And Morris Berman, in Twilight of American Culture predicts that the cultural collapse of America will result in a corporate oligarchy, something you can already see in the behavior of corporations like Microsoft and Wal-Mart.

Quote:
But a thread like this (it's all their fault!) is uniquely conservative. Where ideology fails for the far right conservative, insults and blaming the other side for you short commings is sure to work.

I must respectfully disagree on this point. There's been plenty of finger pointing by liberals over the aftermath of hurricane Katrina and the handling of the Iraq war. There's been plenty of insults and blaming from both sides of the political spectrum. Finger pointing and blame shifting aren't conservative or liberal traits, they're human traits, and both sides engage in them frequently, and with gusto.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I must respectfully disagree on this point. There's been plenty of finger pointing by liberals over the aftermath of hurricane Katrina and the handling of the Iraq war. There's been plenty of insults and blaming from both sides of the political spectrum. Finger pointing and blame shifting aren't conservative or liberal traits, they're human traits, and both sides engage in them frequently, and with gusto.

Actually I think I failed to get my point across, completely my fault.

Yeah both Liberals and Conservatives finger point, but in political debate I more often see Conservatives saying "Liberals are evil/cowards/immoral/smell of cheese" than anything similar coming from Liberals.

For instance right here, Hero the conservative starts yet another "Liberals are all cowards who want to destroy the US thread". Neglecting to mention that it is Conservatives sitting at home sending other peoples kids to war, and as many of those kids are Liberals as they are Conservative, perhaps more so.

I fail to see the bravery in sending another persons kid to die because you are not prepared to send yourself or your family in to the firing line. I'm sick of the hypocracy from a man who thinks sitting at home watching other people fight to make you feel safe on TV is brave.

I also fairly solidly put it as extreme conservatives. People like Hero who dreams of the day Liberals will all be in camps.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now its perfectly safe for North Korea to sail its Chinese made, brand new, diesel-electric subs right up to our carriers and blow them out of the water ending American naval control of the Pacific Ocean. Perhaps the Chinese could sail one of their own right into and back out of Pearl Harbor. We wouldn't even know until it was too late. Good job liberals. Making the world safe for the enemies of freedom everwhere.

Quote:

Judge Temporarily Bars Navy Use of Sonar
Jul 03 2:59 PM US/Eastern
Email this story

LOS ANGELES

A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order Monday barring the Navy from using a type of sonar, allegedly harmful to marine mammals, during a Pacific warfare exercise scheduled to begin this week.

The order comes three days after the Navy obtained a six-month national defense exemption from the Defense Department allowing it to use "mid-frequency active sonar."

Environmental groups had sued to stop the sonar use during the exercises off Hawaii. The sonar portion of the war games was set to start Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper wrote in her order that the plaintiffs "have shown a possibility that RIMPAC 2006 will kill, injure, and disturb many marine species, including marine mammals, in waters surrounding the Hawaiian Islands."

To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name. Or there is this:
Quote:

Cooper, Florence-Marie
Born 1940 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Central District of California
Nominated by William J. Clinton on July 14, 1999, to a seat vacated by Linda H. McLaughlin; Confirmed by the Senate on November 10, 1999, and received commission on November 15, 1999.

Not content with American liberals, he imports one from Canada. Wonder if she's legal...

H

As mentioned by others it's fairly plain that this refers to a "specific type" of Sonar found to be harmful to marine life.
Then again, Depth charges are'nt particularly Fish friendly either.
I am sure that there are plenty of other machines that go "Ping" that will do the job just as well.

It is a shame,however, that there dont seem to be any judges willing to be as concerned about the many and varied kinds of polutants, contaminants, Nuclear waste etc that end up floating on top of or sinking to the bottom of our Oceans. Mostly sent there by good old Conservative business people willing to cut any corner to keep the Market working for them.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Yeah both Liberals and Conservatives finger point, but in political debate I more often see Conservatives saying "Liberals are evil/cowards/immoral/smell of cheese" than anything similar coming from Liberals.

For instance right here, Hero the conservative starts yet another "Liberals are all cowards who want to destroy the US thread". Neglecting to mention that it is Conservatives sitting at home sending other peoples kids to war, and as many of those kids are Liberals as they are Conservative, perhaps more so.

I fail to see the bravery in sending another persons kid to die because you are not prepared to send yourself or your family in to the firing line. I'm sick of the hypocracy from a man who thinks sitting at home watching other people fight to make you feel safe on TV is brave.

I also fairly solidly put it as extreme conservatives. People like Hero who dreams of the day Liberals will all be in camps.

But isn't this very thing finger-pointing? Implying that Hero wants liberals in camps and complaining about how the conservatives are sending other people's children to die in a war? Does this not engage in some of the same mud slinging (albeit, in a more calm tone of voice) as the sorts of things that Hero is doing?

This is, after all, my frustration with our political system here in the states. Because we have a binary party system, all issues become binary issues, and all people become binary people. But both ideologies subtly imply that theirs is wholly correct and the other is wholly wrong. Thus what you wind up with is people unable to look at the issue in a complex way. If Hero says, "Liberals are weak on defense!" and then you say, "Conservatives are hypocritical war-mongers", you're both engaging in the same type of thing: the demonization of the other side of the binary equation. I just wish that we would realize that the actual reality of the situation is miles from binary--and then walk away from our conservative/liberal categories and start thinking critically about the issues.
________________________________________________________________________
Editted to add: perhaps the reason you perceive conservatives as engaging more often in finger-wagging and insult-hurling is because when they do it, its finger-wagging and insult-hurling and when "liberals" do it, its fact-pointing-out and calling-it-like-it-is. I would venture to guess that those on the other side of the equation would say that the liberals are the ones that do it more--because they have the opposite perception.
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Monday, July 3, 2006 11:28 AM

The biggest problem with these types of sonar is their is no conclusive proof that they are the cause... mind you as there is no proof they are not there must be more research into this

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/216520_orcas18.html

The implications of what damage widespread deployment could cause is more of a threat to marine life that the current pollution fiascos...

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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Monday, July 3, 2006 11:41 AM

Well Hero has actually said that he wants Liberals removed from society, so no it's not the same thing.

Conservatives are sending other people’s kids to war, Liberals do it too, of course, but I've not seen them calling Conservatives cowards while they're doing it, a favoured mantra from Conservatives, maybe you can dig up an account where that's happened for me?

Moving on it's different because I'm well aware that both Conservatives and Liberals are required, in a purely Liberal society you'd have people scared to leave their house in case they offended someone and were sent to 'offenders re-education'. In a purely conservative society you'd have people afraid to leave their house because vigilantes might decide walking that way isn't Conservative enough...

Same result, paranoia, fear, totalitarianism, the mechanisms for getting them are merely different.

But the problem with Liberals is pretty much what I said, they don't jump on Conservatives the way Conservatives jump on them. They don't tend to dignify an attack like Liberals are cowards with a response; I do because hell I think I might have a touch of Conservative in me after all.

As for the last part, maybe you could point me to the "Conservatives are hypocritical war mongers" thread, because in the last two weeks there have been two "Liberals are cowards" threads...

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:01 PM

SERGEANTX

It's pretty clear traditional 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' can't see past the ends of their power-mongering noses. I propose we revoke the voting rights of everyone stupid enough to vote for Republicans or Democrats in the last election. Start fresh.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It's pretty clear traditional 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' can't see past the ends of their power-mongering noses.

Exactly!

Quote:
I propose we revoke the voting rights of everyone stupid enough to vote for Republicans or Democrats in the last election. Start fresh.

SergeantX

Heh.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
As for the last part, maybe you could point me to the "Conservatives are hypocritical war mongers" thread, because in the last two weeks there have been two "Liberals are cowards" threads...

The issue is bigger than specific threads on this board. For a prime example of liberal finger-pointing and insult-slinging--in complete isolation from actual arguments or facts--look no further than Kanye West's declaration that George Bush doesn't care about black people.

My point is two-fold: 1) both conservatives and liberals engage in this type of behavior (call it X behavior, for simplicity; and 2) claiming that the conservatives engage in more X behavior than liberals is itself X behavior.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
As for the last part, maybe you could point me to the "Conservatives are hypocritical war mongers" thread, because in the last two weeks there have been two "Liberals are cowards" threads...

The issue is bigger than specific threads on this board. For a prime example of liberal finger-pointing and insult-slinging--in complete isolation from actual arguments or facts--look no further than Kanye West's declaration that George Bush doesn't care about black people.

My point is two-fold: 1) both conservatives and liberals engage in this type of behavior (call it X behavior, for simplicity; and 2) claiming that the conservatives engage in more X behavior than liberals is itself X behavior.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

You just have to watch any American election comercials to see that is true

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Monday, July 3, 2006 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Casual:
The issue is bigger than specific threads on this board. For a prime example of liberal finger-pointing and insult-slinging--in complete isolation from actual arguments or facts--look no further than Kanye West's declaration that George Bush doesn't care about black people.

I see, we have Liberals on this board and Conservatives and the fact that the way they conduct themselves here is more in line with my predicate is inadmissible?

There's a big difference to saying George Bush doesn't care about black people and saying all Liberals are X, a huge difference, the two aren't even comparable.

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 1:24 PM

CHOKAI

Hero -

North Korean subs are so crappy that this technology is totally unecessary. If you wanna get your conservative gander up realize that this is a HUGE waste of your tax dollars. Or for that matter the US F22 program on which we have spent more than $100B when there is still no plane in the world that can even touch the F-15E with AAMRAM. Even Senior US military officers have questioned the need for these programs. They would rather pay thier soldiers a better wage and have money to buy them body armor for deployment to Iraq. Rather than more needless wiz-bang weapons systems.

To give you a level of the technological disparity between the US and Korea and even China for that matter. In 1997 Clinton parked a US Carrier Battle group a mere 200 miles off the Chinese and Korean coasts. The Chinese couldn't find it.

North Korean submarines are of the Whiskey/Romeo class and are a derivitive of a design originally developed by the germans during World War II.

The DPRK Navy does not have fuel to put to sea, much less train. They cannot manufacture or obtain spare parts for thier boats, they are rusting hulking pieces of crap (literally).

The Chinese have not sold any new subs of note to the Koreans as of this last months review of world wide submarine forces posted in the United States Naval Institutes proceedings journal (which is a great magazine btw, I recommend you subscribe).

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Monday, July 3, 2006 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Because, apparently, this particular tool is the ONLY way we have of figuring out what is going on under the sea.

I remind you, our killer dolphins are untested in combat.

H

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Monday, July 3, 2006 4:33 PM

STILLFLYIN

Ok, I am not going to take sides here I'd just like to throw what I know about Anti-Submarine Warfare into the mix. The major threats to US carriers in port are disel powerd subs running submerged on battery. And the passive sonar arrays that were mentioned earlier are almost useless against them. They are designed to detect Nuclear-powered fast-attack and missile subs. A battery powered vessel's noise emination is almost imperceptable compared to a nuclear-powered vessel's. The best way to detect a disel sub from the surface is by using active sonar, similar to a bat's echolocation.

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Monday, July 3, 2006 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I see, we have Liberals on this board and Conservatives and the fact that the way they conduct themselves here is more in line with my predicate is inadmissible?

There's a big difference to saying George Bush doesn't care about black people and saying all Liberals are X, a huge difference, the two aren't even comparable.

But that's just my point! I don't agree that either side is better or worse; they both engage in the behavior equally. It's just difficult to perceive that when one has an ideological commitment to a particular side, because from that ideological point of view, X-Behavior is justified (irrespective of which side it happens to be).

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Monday, July 3, 2006 6:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now its perfectly safe for North Korea to sail its Chinese made, brand new, diesel-electric subs right up to our carriers and blow them out of the water ending American naval control of the Pacific Ocean. Perhaps the Chinese could sail one of their own right into and back out of Pearl Harbor. We wouldn't even know until it was too late. Good job liberals. Making the world safe for the enemies of freedom everwhere.

Quote:

Judge Temporarily Bars Navy Use of Sonar
Jul 03 2:59 PM US/Eastern
Email this story

LOS ANGELES

A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order Monday barring the Navy from using a type of sonar, allegedly harmful to marine mammals, during a Pacific warfare exercise scheduled to begin this week.

The order comes three days after the Navy obtained a six-month national defense exemption from the Defense Department allowing it to use "mid-frequency active sonar."

Environmental groups had sued to stop the sonar use during the exercises off Hawaii. The sonar portion of the war games was set to start Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper wrote in her order that the plaintiffs "have shown a possibility that RIMPAC 2006 will kill, injure, and disturb many marine species, including marine mammals, in waters surrounding the Hawaiian Islands."

To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name. Or there is this:
Quote:

Cooper, Florence-Marie
Born 1940 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Central District of California
Nominated by William J. Clinton on July 14, 1999, to a seat vacated by Linda H. McLaughlin; Confirmed by the Senate on November 10, 1999, and received commission on November 15, 1999.

Not content with American liberals, he imports one from Canada. Wonder if she's legal...

H

Okay, let's start from the top. First off, I don't think one of North Korea's diesel-electric subs is going to "sneak" into anywhere. Diesel subs are about as quiet as diesel trucks - with the added bonus of sound travelling much further and more effectively through water than it does through air!

Secondly, we're not talking about completely disabling ALL subs, or ALL types of sonar equipment - we're talking specifically about one type of sonar, a mid-frequency active sonar. Far as I know (which ain't far, in this case), "active" sonars are used more for specific targeting, once you've already ascertained that there's a bad guy in the area and pretty well located him. The active sonar is generally, from my understanding, used near the end of the chase, to "lock on" to an enemy boat. Why? Because "active" sonars don't just show you where enemy boats are; they also show them where YOU are, lighting you up like a beacon in the night. Not a good thing to do in submarine warfare, wouldn't you agree? This is why the vast majority of tracking and finding enemy subs and fleets is done with passive sonar, towed arrays, and extremely sensitive hydrophonic listening gear - you listen carefully for any sound that *doesn't* belong, and then you track it back to its source, and you find your bogey.

If you think that taking away this one tool is going to cripple the entire US Navy, you really do have a dim view of our armed forces and their abilities. Amazing that you, a war-hawking conservative, even believe we can mount a fight against rock-throwing insurgents...

Quote:
To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name.

So... by your reckoning, anyone who "hyphens" ("hyphenates" is the word you were looking for, I believe) her name is suspected of being a liberal. Even if she hyphenates her first name. And, of course, being a female and from California, that just nails the coffin lid shut. She *must* be a liberal!

Do you use such ironclad proof in court when you're prosecuting? Do you routinely engage in innuendo and guilt by implication in your arguments? Do you typically trump up the charges and inflate them to help your case? If not, why do you do it here?

Quote:
Not content with American liberals, he imports one from Canada. Wonder if she's legal...

Ah, that's right - Clinton MUST HAVE imported her. Because, as we all know, no one has ever moved here from another country of their own volition. And she's probably not legal, either - I doubt the federal government would even check on the legal status of someone who was nominated to be a federal judge. Sure, they might look into the legal status of her maid or pool boy, but certainly not at her legal status itself. And to think, I'm supposed to believe that you chuckleheads in the civil service sector have our best interests at heart. On the one hand, the government you work for (and argue so vehemently for us to follow blindly, because you're right and we're all wrong, and there's no need to look behind the curtain) is checking into everything everybody does, and on the other hand, you imply that that same government is so goddamn stupid, clueless, and ineffective that (a), we have to import our federal judges from other countries, and that (b), said government is incapable of assessing whether said "importees" are of legal status or not before they're given the job. Guess we better have a good look into the legal status of Antonin Scalia - he sounds like he'd be an illegal!

Sorry, man; I have respect for you and what you do for a living, but when you try to damn all "liberals" by painting them with such a broad brush, it just gets under my skin. When you imply that all people with liberal beliefs are hell-bent on destroying America, you're no better than those who say that all conservatives are out to create a neo-Nazi, Christian Conservative, right-wing fundamentalist, totalitarian regime, and that all the Bush administration wants is to speed us into the Apocalypse.

[/rant]

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Monday, July 3, 2006 7:43 PM

Citizen--

Just wanted to say, since I haven't heard back from my last post, that it's always a pleasure going 'round an issue with you. It's clear that we don't agree (and to be honest, we rarely do), but regardless, I always enjoy our conversations because you seem to be committed to level-headed dialogue (as opposed to mere demagoguery). You are an officer and a gentleman, sir, and my hat's off to you.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
But that's just my point! I don't agree that either side is better or worse; they both engage in the behavior equally. It's just difficult to perceive that when one has an ideological commitment to a particular side, because from that ideological point of view, X-Behavior is justified (irrespective of which side it happens to be).

But of course an attack leveled at an individual pertaining to a single event is different to say "all X is Y".

There's a huge difference between saying "that guys a criminal" and "all men are criminals".

I knew this American guy once (not that he's the only American I know, Americans aren't endangered or rare or nuthin') and he was a right twat. A grade 'A' arsehole.

There's a big difference between that prior statement and saying "All Americans are Arseholes."

Quote:
Just wanted to say, since I haven't heard back from my last post, that it's always a pleasure going 'round an issue with you. It's clear that we don't agree (and to be honest, we rarely do), but regardless, I always enjoy our conversations because you seem to be committed to level-headed dialogue (as opposed to mere demagoguery). You are an officer and a gentleman, sir, and my hat's off to you.

Thanks, I try, some say very, though I wonder if that's not the minority opinion:
ENTER: ShadowFly - Stage right

Plus demagoguery, I learned a new word today, thanks.

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 8:31 AM

Quote:
Okay, let's start from the top. First off, I don't think one of North Korea's diesel-electric subs is going to "sneak" into anywhere. Diesel subs are about as quiet as diesel trucks - with the added bonus of sound travelling much further and more effectively through water than it does through air!

You may want to read up on the subject. Diesel subs are generally quieter then nuclear subs when operating submerged and using batteries. Their are some severe limitations over nuclear subs such as range, speed and the need to periodically snorkle which makes them detectable by radar and by aircraft. They are most effective in shallow waters and that is also where nuclear subs are least effective. Now pull up a map and you'll see funny names like the 'South China Sea' and 'Sea of Japan'. These seas happen to be shallow. Thats why a couple weeks ago the navy published a report indicating that Chinese and Chinese made North Korean diesel subs were becoming capable of sea denial in regions of the Western Pacific and coastal waters off Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Indonesia.

I have faith that should a war break out then the Judge in question might see fit to reverse her ruling, assuming all the enviromental impact studies are properly filed. Unfortunately American history has shown that often our blinders come off a day too late for many thousands of American citizens or servicemen. I sugggest the enviromental risk of a sunken American nuclear carrier task force is greater then the risk to sea ecology of a little noise here and there.

Quote:

Secondly, we're not talking about completely disabling ALL subs, or ALL types of sonar equipment - we're talking specifically about one type of sonar

Navy says they need it, and they know more about these things then some liberal judge or a bunch of tree huggers who run to court to promote an agenda they'd never get passed through an elected body.

I think national security is more important then ecological impact.

Quote:

So... by your reckoning, anyone who "hyphens" ("hyphenates" is the word you were looking for, I believe) her name is suspected of being a liberal. Even if she hyphenates her first name. And, of course, being a female and from California, that just nails the coffin lid shut. She *must* be a liberal!

She could just be a duck...looks like one, sounds like one...although to be fair to me, I did note that my evidence: name, gender, location, was suspect so I then included the fact she was appointed by Clinton.

That she's Canadian boggles the mind, how does a Canadian become an American judge and how can someone who's not an American act as a check upon our national defense? Liberalism is the answer.

H

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 8:55 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name.

Yeah, that's pure logic. God knows no conservative ever had a hyphenated last name. And there are no female conservatives on the bench anywhere in America. Heavens, only crazy suffragettes would want women judges.

And no conservative ever made a legal decision that disagreed with conservative pravda just because it was right or legal.

"This judge made a decision that I, as a conservative, don't agree with. Therefore, she must be a liberal!"

To your credit, Hero, you admit your evidence is suspect--in the middle of your post, long after your thread title smears all liberals as being against American defense. Old yellow journalism tactic; smear on page one, retraction on page forty-seven.

Bye the bye, before someone smears me as a liberal, I'm neither liberal nor conservative. I'm a member of the radical middle, e.g. Libertarian.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

That she's Canadian boggles the mind, how does a Canadian become an American judge and how can someone who's not an American act as a check upon our national defense? Liberalism is the answer.

H

Since when did someone who is'nt British have the right to dictate the foriegn policy of The United Kingdom?
Yet G.W.B. does it continously.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 1:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Since when did someone who is'nt British have the right to dictate the foriegn policy of The United Kingdom?
Yet G.W.B. does it continously.

Yeah but that's different...

Besides G.W.B. is her Britannic majesties bitch.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 1:16 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

Bye the bye, before someone smears me as a liberal, I'm neither liberal nor conservative. I'm a member of the radical middle, e.g. Libertarian.

RJ, I love that!

The Radical Middle!

We ain't out to kill no one, but if we have to, we do it ourselves!
To Hell with the pansy tree-huggers and the war-mongering liars!

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 1:20 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
That she's Canadian boggles the mind, how does a Canadian become an American judge and how can someone who's not an American act as a check upon our national defense? Liberalism is the answer.

You're saying you can't get your head around the idea that there are people who are actually born in Canada, or you can't get your head around the idea that someone born in another country would actually want to move to the United States and become a US citizen? How does a Canadian become an American judge? At a guess, I'd say by becoming a US citizen and then working her ass off to make a better life for herself and her family. You claim that she's "not an American" because she was born somewhere else; I have a brother and sister who were born in Germany while my parents were stationed there with the US Army - do I have to tell them that they're no longer Americans?

You seem to have an exceptionally narrow view of who is and isn't an American. By your reckoning, we can pretty much throw out the entire American system of government, because none of the Founding Fathers were legitimately "American" citizens. They were all born British subjects.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 2:05 PM

EXODUS

Cannot... resist... political... debate. Must... debate.

Well, I have been hoping to see a Conservative vs. Liberal debate on here and my prayers were finally answered. Now, rather than going on my usual political killing spree, I will take a moderate approach. As it seems, no one here likes the term Conservative and the term Liberal. Hell, neither do I but it is necessary when tackling politics. Now before I begin, I must show you my ultimate political organizer which consists of only two groups, ideology and politics. Allow me to show you how my organizer works.

Ideology basically means your values, morals and how you think. Ideologically, I am quite conservative-minded. I believe in God, I am not really tolerant at certain times and I am do not affiliate myself with Liberal things such as being an artist. Rather I enjoy typing away at the computer, watching movies, and believe it or not... doing homework (it passes the time).

Politcally, I am a Moderate in the grand scheme of things. I myself am a Capitalist/Socialist. I believe that Capatlism works well in first-world societies but in certain countries (mainly the US), crude capitalism is practiced preventing people from achieving high social status (which is what democracy is all about). Politically, I would be classified as a Moderate.

In the grand scheme of things, I am a Conservative/Moderate. Basically, I have Conservative views yet I can still understand what the left is saying (me listening to the left on the other hand... well that is a different story as to the right at times). Anyways, I do not like seeing political debates going sour like this one where insults start to get thrown. Some of us may be Conservatives, some may be Liberals. But in the end, we are all humans and we should all get along regardless of who says what. That being said, people's opinions should be respected from both the right and the left (primarily the left since the left enjoys barking insults at the right as I have seen on television, contrary to what some may believe). Anyways, that was my two cents. I do not want to get carried away in any political rants... that is what my blog is for.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 3:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Heh, That waters too deep on either end for me, you see, i'm an Anarchist, and thus not in any way desiring to swim in that polluted pool.

Dun much care how the rest of the world sees me, dun care one whit if your leaders and my leaders hate each other, long as they keep it outta my face, and offa my property.

Threaten my possessions, privacy, personal space or family - I hurt you, and if I cannot directly hurt you without six tons of goon squad assholes pulling a waco on me, then I hurt you financially or politically by sabotaging your support systems.

So... some buncha crazies in the desert with no air force, no navy, and no effective way to get TO me, to bother me ? what the hell do I care ?

Now... some buncha crazies 10 hours drive from here, that want my money, my privacy, AND threaten my personal space on certain issues of belief and the simple, earnest desire to be left the hell alone... that's a threat.

Of course, those same crazies are busy imploding and doing a far better job of their own self destruction than I could ever hope for, so best leave em to it, long as they stay out of my face.

Keep your political parties, it's just one more ball and chain in a country that has too many already.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Since when did someone who is'nt British have the right to dictate the foriegn policy of The United Kingdom?
Yet G.W.B. does it continously.

Hahahahahahaha...our British colonies...serves you right for not bowing to Hitler or the Commies when you had your chances. Now its our world and your just living in it. Silly as it sounds 'it is the destiny of the Americans and the British to rule the world'...

I have realized that after watching North Korea screw itself over today, that foriegn policy is often dictated by non-Americans, as in sometimes actions are forced upon us by circumstance. We try to shape the circumstances but its not always successful. For example, I believe everyone would like to avoid war (or even a small military confrontation) with North Korea...but it may be out of our hands.

H

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 4:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

You seem to have an exceptionally narrow view of who is and isn't an American. By your reckoning, we can pretty much throw out the entire American system of government, because none of the Founding Fathers were legitimately "American" citizens. They were all born British subjects.

The founding fathers were born British citizens, but died Americans. That was by virtue of both where they were born and what they accomplished. Even they were smart enough to know that there were some jobs in government that required a natural born citizen to perform. This judge, by virtue of her birth and regardless of every other qualification she has cannot be President of the United States.

But that is not relevant. What is relavant is that a foriegn born citizen has used her power to compromise American military readiness and defense. Its the same as a Russian born judge shutting down our missile deterrant in the 1970s or an Iranian born judge ending America's terrorist surveilance programs. The decisions, regardless of whether they are correct, are best kept out of the hands of those whose judgement is suspect. Liberals, people who are pacifists or who place higher values on the lives of a few fish then they do our citizens and servicemen, are most certainly suspect in making these decisions with regards to national security. Thats why a pacifist cannot be President because they can't fullfill the oath or perform the essential duties.

H

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Tuesday, July 4, 2006 4:55 PM

I guess one possible answer here is for other countries to simply deny the right of passage to ALL US navy ships until it is confirmed that they are not employing types of sonar which are hazardous to marine life as well as fisheries.

I'm sure if nations like Britain, France, Spain, Canada, Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, Panama, Italy and others decide that it is a hazard and not in both their enviormental or commercial interest for the US Navy to jeopardize their natural resources on either a whim or for the sake of paranoia... perhaps the US Navy will take the issue seriously

As Hero says, they are concerned with the " national security " or the US and little else...

The world is not the US, the oceans do not belong to the US

Maybe it is time for the Americans to go home

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 1:19 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Roger that. Trotskyite Liberals like Boy Georgie Bush won't defend USA. Bush was demoted from pilot to mail clerk for disobeying a lawful order to take a piss test in Texas Air National Guard, then was sentenced to 6 months extra duty for desertion of Vietnam Wars. Bush orders wide open US borders, amnesty for 40-million criminal aliens, invites 200-million criminal aliens, sells ports and military factories to Commie China and "Arabs", sells nukes to Saddam and Iran and N Korea, kills 200,000 US troops with his daddy and "brother" Bill Clinton-Blythe, and bombs USA with Thermite on 9/11/2001 aka Operation Northwoods.

Happy 4th of July

It's not altogether wise to sneak up on a man when he's handling his weapon.
-Mal

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 4:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I'm sure if nations like Britain, France, Spain, Canada, Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, Panama, Italy and others

With the exception of Panama, all those nations have that right. If they choose to give up the unbrella of American protection, then they have every right to do so. American foriegn policy and security programs have prevented a return of war to Europe and a resumption of world wide conflict for more the sixty years and our bases pump millions into local economies in Britain, Germany, Japan and many other nations. That money could easily be spent at home if they so choose. Naturally they will not interfere with the US ship pinging its sonar as loud as possible a mere 12.01 nautical miles from their precious shoreline in international waters...

Panama does not have they right to deny US passage of the Panama Canal under any conditions. It aint fair but thats the way of it. They can fly their flag over the canal, collect tolls and schedule shipping (subject to our needs), but the Canal belongs to the United States.

H

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I have realized that after watching North Korea screw itself over today, that foriegn policy is often dictated by non-Americans, as in sometimes actions are forced upon us by circumstance. We try to shape the circumstances but its not always successful. For example, I believe everyone would like to avoid war (or even a small military confrontation) with North Korea...but it may be out of our hands.

H

Not at all.
If the U.S has all the amazing technical equipment / weaponry it's perported to have (covert or otherwise) it should be able to just sit back and bat the silly little North Korean missiles out of the air as they cross the Pacific.
Or have the liberals sabotaged your anti-missile systems too.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 4:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Guess we better have a good look into the legal status of Antonin Scalia - he sounds like he'd be an illegal!

He was born in New Jersey and raised in Queens. You shouldn't judge an American by ethnicity. Its not like he hyphens his name...

Most California judges are liberal, most Canadians are liberal (or at least generally more so then Americans...its your way, I really don't have a problem with Canadian liberals...in Canada), most female judges are liberal, most women who hyphen their name are liberal (its a feminist thing) and by saying "most" I am deliberately implying "not all". So finally we come to the two items of definitve proof. Item one, the decision, siding with the radical enviromentalists by shutting down a portion of our national defenses, a very liberal decision (even if its correct, its still liberal). Item two, she was appointed by Clinton, all, not most, all Clinton appointees were liberals.

Case closed. Don't argue her credentials, she's a liberal, find me a liberal who can defend the country if you want to deny my initial premise.

Quote:

but when you try to damn all "liberals" by painting them with such a broad brush, it just gets under my skin.

Well, let me put it this way:

"It is not their patriotism -- it is their judgment that has been so sorely lacking. They claimed Carter's pacifism would lead to peace.

They were wrong.

They claimed Reagan's defense buildup would lead to war.

They were wrong.

And, no pair has been more wrong, more loudly, more often than the two Senators from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

Together, Kennedy/Kerry have opposed the very weapons system that won the Cold War and that is now winning the War on Terror.

Listing all the weapon systems that Senator Kerry tried his best to shut down sounds like an auctioneer selling off our national security but Americans need to know the facts."- from a former Democratic Senator.

And there is Joe Lieberman, a man who is not leaving the Democratic Party, but whom is being left by the Democratic Party's liberals.

H

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 4:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

The founding fathers were born British citizens, but died Americans.

H

They remain British citizens as far as I'm concerned, and Her Majesty is allways prepared to forgive the odd mistake.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 6:16 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OOPS.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 6:27 AM

Quote:
(primarily the left since the left enjoys barking insults at the right as I have seen on television, contrary to what some may believe)

Is this what Casual was talking about?

Especially the left, as in the left are the worst offenders. So by this reasoning since in the last two weeks two threads of the "liberals are all evil scumbags" variety have started up there should be at least four "Conservatives are all evil scumbags" threads.

Yet there are none, how do we account for this descrepancy, by saying these simple words:

You are wrong.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 6:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey Gino,

Zero said he 'prosecuted' a character defamation case. I realize you are not US, but to your knowledge, is this a criminal or civil procedure ?

Quote:
nice rant by the way, does it really work for you in the courtroom ?
Quote:

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 6:53 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I heard something on the radio alluding that the Missile Defense System was shown to be a fraud (during this latest tiff with N Korea).

Anyone know what that was about?

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:15 AM

SICKDUDE

Quote:
Originally posted by Chokai:
North Korean subs are so crappy that this technology is totally unecessary. If you wanna get your conservative gander up realize that this is a HUGE waste of your tax dollars. Or for that matter the US F22 program on which we have spent more than $100B when there is still no plane in the world that can even touch the F-15E with AAMRAM. Even Senior US military officers have questioned the need for these programs. They would rather pay thier soldiers a better wage and have money to buy them body armor for deployment to Iraq. Rather than more needless wiz-bang weapons systems.

To give you a level of the technological disparity between the US and Korea and even China for that matter. In 1997 Clinton parked a US Carrier Battle group a mere 200 miles off the Chinese and Korean coasts. The Chinese couldn't find it.

North Korean submarines are of the Whiskey/Romeo class and are a derivitive of a design originally developed by the germans during World War II.

The DPRK Navy does not have fuel to put to sea, much less train. They cannot manufacture or obtain spare parts for thier boats, they are rusting hulking pieces of crap (literally).

The Chinese have not sold any new subs of note to the Koreans as of this last months review of world wide submarine forces posted in the United States Naval Institutes proceedings journal (which is a great magazine btw, I recommend you subscribe).

*Thread hijack*
Chokai,
Very good points! I personally don't agree with you on the F-22, but I get what you're saying. After following China's development of the F-7 Chengdu, I gotta agree.

Could you tell me more about the US Naval Institutes journal? What type of features and articles does it offer? Is it global or US/Nato in its focus? Where is it available?

"I am your father, Luke. Give in to the Dark Side, you nob!" - Doug McKenzie

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Zero said he 'prosecuted' a character defamation case. I realize you are not US, but to your knowledge, is this a criminal or civil procedure ?

I don't believe I ever said such a thing. Can you cite this comment by me? You may have misunderstood it, or perhaps you are confusing me with this "Zero" character you have invented to justify your lack of substantive argument.

H

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 1:27 PM