Quote:

---

BOSTON — Three-ton concrete panels fell from the ceiling of the city's Big Dig tunnel, killing a woman in a car and shutting down a section of the massive building project that has become both a central route through the city and a source of construction concerns and cost overruns.

The woman was a passenger in a car hit by debris from the ceiling late Monday, authorities said. A man believed to be the driver was able to squeeze out and was taken to a hospital with minor injuries, authorities said.

Authorities say safety has not been compromised by problems with the $14 billion Big Dig highway project, which buried Interstate 93 beneath downtown and extended the Massachusetts Turnpike to Logan Airport.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
From an estimated $2.5 Billion to over $ 14.6 Billion, with delays, leaks.....and the damn thing is falling apart already! This from the land of Ted Kennedy and John ( I served in Vietnam ) Kerry.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
You guys wonder why no one is giving your posts credit beyond your own little folie a deux?

---

Quote:

---

Massachusetts Turnpike Authority officials and the project manager said an investigation begun after yesterday's deadly concrete collapse has found dozens of signs of bolts loosening and
other potential failures in the same tunnel. The experts said other lanes of the main route from Boston's Logan Airport also show signs of trouble.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
My point about interjecting Kerry and Kennedy into the story ( the very last line of the original post, btw ) was intended to say 2 things.

1 - that Big Gov't projects like this tend to run amuck and so much time/$ / materials have been wasted, and for what? A horribly flawed project! And trajically so!

2 - It wasn't long ago, I thought, that the official ceremony recognizing The Big Dig took place, and among those attending was John Kerry.

I could be wrong, but that's what I was thinking at the time. Pardon if I was wrong on the 2nd point.

---

Quote:

---

* edited to add: Actually, I'm really surprised that you didn't bring up Tip O'Neil. He was a Democrat. More of a liberal than John Kerry will ever be. And he actually played a part in the impeachment proceedings against Nixon. It's the trifecta. I'm surprised you didn't immediately label him a traitor and cry out for his disinternment and immolation (okay, I may have gone a bit far with the last sentence ).

---

Quote:

---

...Big Gov't projects like this tend to run amuck and so much time/$ / materials have been wasted, and for what? A horribly flawed project! And trajically so!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

---

...Big Gov't projects like this tend to run amuck and so much time/$ / materials have been wasted, and for what? A horribly flawed project! And trajically so!

---

You mean like the war in Iraq?

A baby seal walks into a club...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not even remotely like the war in Iraq.

---

Quote:

---

...Big Gov't projects like this tend to run amuck and so much time/$ / materials have been wasted, and for what? A horribly flawed project! And trajically so!

Not even remotely like the war in Iraq.

---

Quote:

---

Perhaps you should start a "Liberals can't dig a hole" thread to go along with the 'cant defend america' one. Its ironic. They can't dig the whole, but they can sure fill them up.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Way to hijack a thread, folks. So, when you can't respond to the topic at hand, you obfuscate away and shout " IRAQ! W! Cheney! ", etc... ANYTHING to avoid having to deal w/the fact that in a state aptly namned 'Taxchussettes', the country's most expensive road project EVER is falling to pieces.

Quite a testiment.

---

Quote:

---

From an estimated $2.5 Billion to over $ 14.6 Billion, with delays, leaks.....and the damn thing is falling apart already! This from the land of Ted Kennedy and John ( I served in Vietnam ) Kerry.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
From an estimated $2.5 Billion to over $ 14.6 Billion, with delays, leaks.....and the damn thing is falling apart already! This from the land of Ted Kennedy and John ( I served in Vietnam ) Kerry.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
From an estimated $2.5 Billion to over $ 14.6 Billion, with delays, leaks.....and the damn thing is falling apart already! This from the land of Ted Kennedy and John ( I served in Vietnam ) Kerry.

---

The pro-Bush crowd judge everything by how they can blame everyone else. This is happening in Bush's America, not Kerry's, but I'm sure it's Liberal body snatching mind kontrolen.

---

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

---

Quote:

---

... but as far as I can see Conservatives such as yourself only ever hate big government when it means paying for things that help other people, if it helps you those big government ideas are just grand.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How many folks has that spiffy Millennium Dome helped ?

---

Quote:

---

If you'd taken the time to notice, you'd see that my line about Kerry/Kennedy was reserved for the very last, and quite frankly, the least bit of my post. The main issue is that a giant project which was late, over budget and poorly made is the result of those who think Gov't is nothing more than a blank check to make everyone's dream come true.

---

Quote:

---

Guess again.

---

Quote:

---

I'm not ridiculing 'the big dig' for what it was intended to do, but for what it became.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You know, I work on small engine bikes, most of which begin as mere 49cc toys and many of which become evil fire-breathing 68cc Monsters, not to mention the truly psychotic Honda Spree with a 103cc Maligutti (I think?) kit on it (and front disc brakes, to stop the insane little thing), and these bikes, once you take them past the frame specs, they shake, vibrate and rattle... A LOT, ok ?

One very common solution to vibration/loose bolt issues that's been common for ages and ages is thus: Reverse the freakin threading, morons.

If a cab driver who works on this stuff out of his garage on weekends can see the bloody fekkin obvious here, whatever overpaid contractor didn't should be held responsible for it.

At least Haliburton/KBR didn't build it, it woulda cost ten times that and the whole thing woulda come down.... Contractors are Contractors, especially those connected with lobbying firms, at either end of the political spectrum, with shell company holding, fake minority status, etc etc - Caveat Emptor.

Our representatives (again, in either party) are awfully free with our money when the job ain't gettin done, why not take them to task for it ?

I pay you to do a job, you take the money and do 10% of the work, then come back and demand more money ? to hell with payin you at all, you'd be lucky if I didn't beat the crap out of you!

And THAT, is the root of the problem, letting these guys slide on 'cost overruns' instead of locking them up for fraud and theft when they pull crap like this.

-Frem

PS- FYI, that Spree does 89mph, imagine the humilation of being blown off the road by.. a honda SPREE ? bwahahah, and no it ain't mine, I wish it was!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen, in your typical knee-jerk reaction to play contrarian to EVERYTHING I post, you've once again displayed your ignorance.

The carving of Mt. Rushmore actually began on August 10, 1927, and spanned a length of 14 years. Only about six and a half years were spent actually carving the mountain, with the rest of the time being spent on weather delays and Borglum's greatest enemy - the lack of funding. The total cost of the project was $900,000. Work continued on the project until the death of Gutzon Borglum in 1941. No carving has been done on the mountain since that time and none is planned in the future.
The granite faces of four American presidents' is scaled to men who would stand 465 feet tall! President Calvin Coolidge believed Mount Rushmore was "decidedly American in its conception, magnitude and meaning. It is altogether worthy of our country," Coolidge proclaimed at the dedication of the project in 1927

Much of Mt Rushmore's constrution was PRIVATELY funded, with assistance from the Fed. Gov't. No one was killed during the making of the monument, despite the use of dynamite and heavy equipment.

---

Quote:

---

The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major's Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World's Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium. The incoming Labour government elected in 1997 under Tony Blair, greatly expanded the size, scope and funding of the project. It also significantly increased expectations of what would be delivered. Just before its opening Blair claimed the Dome would be "a triumph of confidence over cynicism, boldness over blandness, excellence over mediocrity". In the words of BBC correspondent Robert Orchard, "the Dome was to be highlighted as a glittering New Labour achievement in the next election manifesto".

So, Conservatives come up w/ an idea, and the Libs inflate it along w/ their ego. Bravo.

---

Quote:

---

A little off topic, but have you seen the movie : Worlds fastest Indian ?

---

Quote:

---

All those on the left wing are scumbags and deserve to die because they won’t fight the terrorist WAAAH!

---

Quote:

---

* Admit that you were wrong and acting like a hypocrite in your Anti-Everyone-But-Bush way.
* Descend this thread into your usual stream of incoherent insults, most of which you've borrowed from someone else since your mind is woefully unable of coming up with original material.
* Continue blabbering on about how Iraq has nothing to do with it but the Millennium Dome is at the heart of the issue.
* Go away and sulk as you've done so many times before.

---

Quote:

---

How you arrive at these conclusions is astounding. BIG GOV'T and waste of tax $$'s was my main point of the thread, not all those on the left...deserve to die .

---

Quote:

---

*I am not wrong here, and in no way what so EVER am I acting like a hypocrite. And you know that.

---

Quote:

---

* Again, you ( intentionally ? ) miss the point. I brought up the Millennium Dome or O2 thingy as a yet another example of massive Gov't expense for no real purpose. Might be a neat place, but couldn't it have been built w/ private funds ?

---

Quote:

---

* It's funny that you think I've ever gone away and sulked after reading one of your diatribes. And that you think I've done it repeatedly, even funnier!

---

Quote:

---

con•trar•i•an - def: One who takes a contrary view or action, especially an investor who makes decisions that contradict prevailing wisdom, as in buying securities that are unpopular at the time.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
It's unclear to me what is meant by "bolts loosening." If it's the case that the threaded fasteners are unscrewing themselves that is one thing. If it's the case that the bolts themselves are working out of where they are mounted, that's another. Either way, it seems to me that vibration is the main cause of the collapse.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2006/07/rom
ney_number_o.html
The ceiling of the Ted Williams Tunnel, which is still open to traffic, also has an epoxy bolt system securing concrete ceiling tiles, which help facilitate airflow throughout the $14.6 billion Big Dig, Romney said.

However, the Ted Williams Tunnel's 700-pound ceiling tiles are much lighter that 6,000-pound slabs that fell last Monday in the connector, and the hanger system in much more “rigid” and “robust,” Romney said. Engineers are now making daily inspections of the tunnel’s ceiling, which has shown no movement in the seven years since it opened, Romney said.

excerpted from http://www.boston.com/news/traffic/bigdig/articles/2006/07/12/workmans
hip_and_design_of_tunnel_are_called_into_question/?page=2
Although such drop ceilings were built elsewhere in Big Dig tunnels, a 200-foot stretch where the accident occurred and the Ted Williams Tunnel have ceilings constructed differently from those in the rest of the connector and the Interstate 93 tunnel, which were built later, Amorello said. In the I-93 tunnel, a beam with ready-made steel connection points was embedded inside the concrete when it was poured to make it easier to suspend the ceiling. But in the affected section, crews didn't install the drop ceiling until 2000, five years after the original ceiling was built, forcing them to use another approach.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://www.boston.com/news/traffic/bigdig/articles/2006/07/14/probe_lo
oks_at_possible_problems_with_handling_epoxy/
Glue on bolts removed from the tunnel roof near the accident site was brittle and cracked, instead of having the consistency of smooth glass it should have had, according to a source briefed on the state investigation but not authorized to speak publicly. The decayed appearance may be a sign of premature aging.

Investigators are looking at problems Big Dig crews might have had in handling the epoxy, which requires a precise series of steps to get maximum holding power, according to the source.
...
In the past, ceiling bolts in the connector and in other Big Dig tunnels have failed safety tests because construction workers failed to mix the two epoxy ingredients correctly, didn't let it harden long enough, or failed to properly clean the surfaces being glued together, according to state reports.

In addition, moisture on the bolts or in drill holes could have weakened the epoxy, engineers said. The connector tunnel had water leaks in the roof in 2000, when the contractors were paid an additional $10,000 for cleanup, according to Big Dig documents. However, it is not clear whether the 2000 leaks were in the area of the accident.

``It was either a progressive decline in the strength of the epoxy or more stress was progressively put on the bolt fixture assembly than planned for," said Jeffrey C. Evans, head of the department of engineering at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania.

excerpted from http://www.boston.com/news/traffic/bigdig/articles/2006/07/16/three_bo
lts_had_no_glue_reilly_says/
Three of the bolts that were supposed to hold up the three-ton concrete panel that fell and killed a 38-year-old Jamaica Plain woman on Monday night have been found to have no epoxy on them, Attorney General Thomas F. Reilly said in an interview yesterday.
...
While some of the bolts appear to have no epoxy on them, others showed an uneven distribution of epoxy , Reilly said. Some of the bolts are bent, he said.

Reilly said last week as the investigation unfolded that the bolts that once anchored the panels slipped out cleanly, as the panels plummeted.

This suggested that the epoxy used had not bonded properly. His comments yesterday gave the most details yet concerning evidence that may illuminate the cause of the fatal incident.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2006/07/rom
ney_number_o.html
“We can’t count on them,” said Romney. “Any place there is an epoxy ceiling system in the I-90 connector tunnel, we are going to put in a redundant system.”

Engineers plan to reinforce some of the faulty connections with steel and secure others with an “undercut connector bolt” that is drilled 10 inches into the concrete and expands at the end as an anchor.

“It literally cuts a special channel inside the concrete,” said Romney, holding up a large silver pipe which has been used in the New York City on the subway system and on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.

The undercut connector bolt is being field tested tonight and could be installed as early as Tuesday, Romney said.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kaneman:
How do you guys take a project like the "Big dig" and make it political?

---